the members want polygamy back...?

[Lilli]

Yes, and I don't feel like I should have to dive into some perilous debate through journals and accounts and he said she said to know if polygamy is something that I should ever have to worry about. I could go through it all but feel that I will not fair too well. The early history information from journals and such really are not readily available for regular saints. I really wish that the church could set this all straight and have some answers so that I don't have to go through everyones journals.

Melissa, you don't have to study all the 'he said she said' stuff in journals or all the vile accusations that abound about Joseph. All you have to do to gain a sure testimony about whether polygamy is right or not is just study the words of Christ, first and foremost, and try to really live them, (meaning really try to gain charity by truly loving and serving your husband most of all, which you probably are already) and also study the scriptures and teachings that Joseph published while he as alive and thus could sign his name to things. That would be the BoM and the original D&C (1835 edition). By studying what those scriptures say and the New Testament (Christ's teachings and his Apostle's teachings) about polygamy, coupled with pondering and likening those scriptures to you and also prayer, God will begin to unfold the truth about it all without reading a single journal, rumor or history book.

Do what Joseph did when all the people around him taught and had opposite beliefs and made him confused about things.

And if your testimony is based in Christ and not fallible men, then you will not fear seeking for truth, and the knowledge you gain will only make you fell relieved, and filled with joy and peace for you will gain a testimony of how much Heavenly Father loves and protects his daughters from just such things as polygamy, and how he expects men to have complete faithfulness and exclusive true love for their 1 wife for their whole life and all eternity. The adversary gives us the spirit of fear so we don't want to seek the truth, but if we have the Spirit, truth is always wonderful and enlightening and brings us peace and freedom from the falsehoods of men that thwart our progression and happiness.

We must have faith and confidence in Christ and in his words 1st and foremost, he must always be our foundation, and we should never listen to anyone who preaches or practices contrary to him, then it doesn't matter who or how many members or leaders may be wrong or go astray, for our testimony of the Gospel is based on Christ not on any mortal man or church.

Not all Joseph's published teachings are in the D&C. He published many teachings against polygamy in the 'Times and Season's' Newspaper in Nauvoo, (which he then sent out to the worldwide Saints, kind of like we do with our 'Ensign') which you can trust really came from him. I would suggest reading the things he taught the Saints in Nauvoo about polygamy, for he knew we would read his words too and they were for us also. If you need more references to find those published writings to the Church, I can get you those.

[Fiannan]

Okay, there are several ways to see this whole issue of polygamy:

1) The Bible is false and therefore polygamy is as valid as any other sexual activity engaged in by higher primates.

2) God compromised with a wicked population of Hebrews and let them have polygamy, and even set down laws for when and where it would be used. In that event then God is like a permissive parent.

3) God saw polygamy as valid as monogamy as long as the people in the arrangement were righteous. This is the view of Jews, Muslims and Mormons.

Of course one can speculate as the RLDS members of this forum do that polygamy is something that Joseph Smith was against and that Brigham Young an John Taylor were not just blatant liars but also promoted, over the pulpit, the acceptance and practice of serial adultery; and that the Church has continued justifying that horrendous sin.

[Fiannan]

Lilli, a few questons, but frst, the "Liahona" is what is published for members outside the USA -- just thought you might want to kow that. ;)

1) Why did more than a few women claim they had been married to Joseph Smith and had sex with him?

2) Why did the bulk of the membership endure the trip to Utah and accept polygamy if it was all a lie? One must remember that many, many people in those days had known Joseph Smith and would have been quite disturbed if polygamy was all a plot by the leaders to get a bunch of wives.

3) How many members today would follow Thomas Monson if he announced in Conerence that all members should find a member of the same sex, marry them and consumate the union? Remember, the 1840s was when the Victorian era was in full swing -- nobody cared about the poor's sexual habits, the rich engaged in perversity and the middle class were expected to be all prim and proper. Telling a group composed of agriculturalsts and mid-level merchants that they should take on additional wives would be akin to asking the members to go gay today.

[Fiannan]

As brought up before, Jesus himself confirmed what the Old testament stated in Matthew 19: 4-6

"4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he who made man at the beginning, made him, male and female.

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What, therefore, God hath joined together, let no man put asunder."


How does twain become three or more? The words of Jesus himself defines marriage. Which really should be the end of any discussion, especially since it was so defined ever since Adam and Eve. This has been confirmed and reconfirmed repeatedly throughout the scriptures.

Simple: Even those of us with large families will say things like, "My son just graduated with a master's degree." It does not mean that I have only one son but signifies an event with one.

Jesus condemned a lot ot things but never took the time to condemn polygamy which was something more conservative Jews pacticed. Why you think that is?

[RaVaN]

Wow...just wow. Jesus defines marriage FROM THE BEGINNING, and you just cast it aside as if it were trash.

[Fiannan]

Wow...just wow. Jesus defines marriage FROM THE BEGINNING, and you just cast it aside as if it were trash.

Don't go there RaVaN, you may not like what you find. . As Yoda told Luke before going into the cave and starting to discover the truth....

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/bib ... values.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Hate to borrow from the gay marriage people but one wonders if they are at least succeeding in bringing up the fallacies of the one man-one woman thing as it being the one and only ideal in the Bible.

[jbalm]

Lilli, a few questons, but frst, the "Liahona" is what is published for members outside the USA -- just thought you might want to kow that. ;)

1) Why did more than a few women claim they had been married to Joseph Smith and had sex with him?

Trying to win a lawsuit...Temple Lot. Also, they weren't afraid to lie. Eliza Snow, for example swore she was not JS's wife shortly before he died. Several years later, she swore otherwise. Polygamy fostered an extremely dishonest, deceitful culture. It was probably the impetus for that whole "lyin' for the Lord" crap that the fundies on this forum always try to justify.

2) Why did the bulk of the membership endure the trip to Utah and accept polygamy if it was all a lie? One must remember that many, many people in those days had known Joseph Smith and would have been quite disturbed if polygamy was all a plot by the leaders to get a bunch of wives.

They may not have known. It was mostly a secret practice until 1852.

3) How many members today would follow Thomas Monson if he announced in Conerence that all members should find a member of the same sex, marry them and consumate the union?

Probably . But that isn't the most apt analogy. If the prophet provided justification for something carnal people want to do anyway, like having multiple sex partners, cheating people, (wearing multiple earrings), etc., there would be lots of takers. Just like there was for polygamy.


Remember, the 1840s was when the Victorian era was in full swing -- nobody cared about the poor's sexual habits, the rich engaged in perversity and the middle class were expected to be all prim and proper. Telling a group composed of agriculturalsts and mid-level merchants that they should take on additional wives would be akin to asking the members to go gay today.

:o)

[cayenne]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ent=safari" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/Jesus_Was_Married.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




"Thus saith The Lord" in section 132 and 4 unpublished revelations given to Taylor and woodruff later on, plus many righteous in the Bible lived it.....it is contained in the law of Moses, it was lived before the Law of Moses, there is some evidence it was lived in the New Testament and by Jesus himself.....makes sense since he is the one giving Joseph Smith the law in section 132....and even in Jacob in the BOM God clearly states that he does allow polygamy at times.

Anyone notice a pattern throughout scripture?

Or the other hand we have people who say polygamy is not Biblical, neither BOM, and that some Cochranite boys seduced Joseph and the boys into living it. Which of these fits pattern, history of the scriptures, and simple logic?


To believe Joseph spoke with God and had is approval, but at the same time lied about section 132 all the while claiming it came from God is the mark of a evil man. This would also go for Taylor and Woodruff who had God give them revelation on polygamy, or were they lying as well and putting Gods name falsely to it. Was Jacob in the BOM lying when God supposedly said he does permit polygamy at times? Or did he throw that in their of his own doing? Was Moses lying in the Torah about polygamy? Did he make up those versus permitting polygamy since he himself had at least 2 wives? Was the prophet Nathan lying when he blessed David's marriages from God.

Polygamy is from God to a few, if you don't like it, then don't live it, but to try to use weak Cochranite arguments and obvious hard over misinterpretations of plain scripture throughout, is denying plain words of God and patterns.

I have spoken my peace on this now, and in a previous post I commented of how polygamy is of the love of God, no one commented, but none the less I spoke the truth. I look forward to the day when polygamy will be so called reinstated in the church, and so does my wife....and she is not some brain washed lack of confidence gal, she is as firm in The Lord as I have ever seen any man or woman, and she follows God first and foremost, and she loves being a help meet to me as well.


May God bless

[jbalm]

Wow...just wow. Jesus defines marriage FROM THE BEGINNING, and you just cast it aside as if it were trash.

Don't go there RaVaN, you may not like what you find. . As Yoda told Luke before going into the cave and starting to discover the truth....

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/bib ... values.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Hate to borrow from the gay marriage people but one wonders if they are at least succeeding in bringing up the fallacies of the one man-one woman thing as it being the one and only ideal in the Bible.

So, you are saying that, as Mormons, we don't follow the Bible, the BOM, or the D&C regarding marriage. Big surprise. Like so many other things, we are expected to base our lives on the whims gerontocracy that makes it up as they go, and frequently change their minds, wresting the most wrestable scriptures along the way to justify their acts.

Just like every other frikkin' church in the history of the world.

Inspiring as hell, don't you think?

[Fiannan]

Trying to win a lawsuit...Temple Lot. Also, they weren't afraid to lie. Eliza Snow, for example swore she was not JS's wife shortly before he died. Several years later, she swore otherwise. Polygamy fostered an extremely dishonest, deceitful culture. It was probably the impetus for that whole "lyin' for the Lord" crap that the fundies on this forum always try to justify.

That was caused when the federal government would employ spies to try to track down men living in polygamy. They did not have an NSA in those days, but the 1% were just as evil.

Think of if someone were living polygamy today, and wanted to be righteous and honest; they would also have to worry about some self-righteous (probably hypocritical) busybodies trying to get them in trouble with the authorities. That is what creates the atmosphere you describe, not the practice of polygamy itself or our Church leaders of that era.

[Fiannan]

I have spoken my peace on this now, and in a previous post I commented of how polygamy is of the love of God, no one commented, but none the less I spoke the truth. I look forward to the day when polygamy will be so called reinstated in the church, and so does my wife....and she is not some brain washed lack of confidence gal, she is as firm in The Lord as I have ever seen any man or woman, and she follows God first and foremost, and she loves being a help meet to me as well.

Don't worry, I am sure some RLDS person here thinks you have lobotomized your wife and that you are dripping with evil. @-)

Seems we know who the conformists and self-righteous are on these boards. Note, you are not one of them.

[RaVaN]

So you reject the Bible? You reject those that conform their beliefs to the Scriptures? Reread your Bible. Your info-graph is cherry-picking and twisting out of context as well as false inferring. Not all that surprising however. Mark 12:23-29

"23 Master, Moses wrote unto us in his law, If a man's brother die, and leave a wife, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seen unto his brother.

24 Now there were seven brethren; the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

25 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed; and the third likewise.

26 And the seven had her, and left no seed; last of all the woman died also.

27 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them, for the seven had her to wife?

28 And Jesus answering said unto them, Ye do err therefore, because ye know not, and understand not the Scriptures, neither the power of God.

29 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels of God who are in heaven. "


Which should put paid to other doctrines propping up polygamy as a commandment. My main point in this is that it is NOT a commandment, and it never was, men do sin and God does still bless them. What makes the LDS polygamy(and the other branches that practiced it) is they claimed it was the natural and God given order...and that is blasphemy and a lie in the face of the word of God written clear and simply for ALL to understand...even more so for those that had been given more.

Just so we are clear as well, I am not RLDS and have never been. The RLDS had it's own sins which led to it's current state.

1835 Doctrine and Covenants Section CI:4 (page 251)on this subject:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... ed&sm=none

" All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, and neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents: and to influence them to embrace any faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that all persons who exercise control over their fellow beings, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin."

Anyhow, I have to thank Coachmarc for bringing the 1835 D&C to my attention once again.

[andsmith0723]

RaVaN just put the nail in the coffin with this debate. There is nothing self righteous about not condoning polygamy. In fact, i'm pretty sure the self righteousness in this thread is coming from those with blinding cult like obedience even flying in the face of our own scriptures. Polygamy has NEVER been a higher law, and never will be. Be happy with your God ordained ONE wife. There is no need for concubines. Is being sealed for all time and eternity just not good enough? I do not understand it.

[Fiannan]

RaVan, interesting that you should quote from that part of the scriptures, the part about a man having to take his widowed sister-in-law as a wife. One thing you missed...shouldn't Jesus have condemned this part of the Mosaic Law as many times a man whose brother died already had a wife, and this law mandated him taking an additional (plural) wife? Didn't see that one, huh?

Oh, and andsmith0723, what's up with the comment:

"...coming from those with blinding cult like obedience..."

???????????????????

[jbalm]

Oh, don't worry about that cult comment. I'm sure he is just one of those unenlightened RLDS folks that shop at Walmart.

Even though polygamy just screams CULT...just disregard those simpletons who are too shortsighted to sign on to the LDS fantasy of God-sanctioned adultery.

[jbalm]

Trying to win a lawsuit...Temple Lot. Also, they weren't afraid to lie. Eliza Snow, for example swore she was not JS's wife shortly before he died. Several years later, she swore otherwise. Polygamy fostered an extremely dishonest, deceitful culture. It was probably the impetus for that whole "lyin' for the Lord" crap that the fundies on this forum always try to justify.

That was caused when the federal government would employ spies to try to track down men living in polygamy. They did not have an NSA in those days, but the 1% were just as evil.

Think of if someone were living polygamy today, and wanted to be righteous and honest; they would also have to worry about some self-righteous (probably hypocritical) busybodies trying to get them in trouble with the authorities. That is what creates the atmosphere you describe, not the practice of polygamy itself or our Church leaders of that era.

Well, there was certainly a lot of lying about polygamy back in Nauvoo. Are you saying that they didn't lie about it back then, or merely that lying wasn't officially sanctioned by the church until until the feds started poking around?

[Fiannan]

Oh, don't worry about that cult comment. I'm sure he is just one of those unenlightened RLDS folks that shop at Walmart.

Even though polygamy just screams CULT...just disregard those simpletons who are too shortsighted to sign on to the LDS fantasy of God-sanctioned adultery.

Were Abraham, Jakob, Brigham Young and Mohammed vile adulterers? You know that adulterers are listed as people who don't go to Heaven, don't you?

[RaVaN]

"And Jesus answering said unto them, Ye do err therefore, because ye know not, and understand not the Scriptures, neither the power of God."

And this will be my last post on the topic. The Gospel is clear on this subject, from the Book of Mormon to the New Testament, To the Old Testament.

Men have sinned, and men continue to sin, and God will bless men how he sees fit. Declaring your sin to be virtue and commanded of God is iniquity and to teach that your sin is virtue and commanded by God is wickedness.

Pointing at the sins of those who have gone before and saying "See, they did it so it must be okay" when the truth is readily apparent that it is wrong, is intellectual dishonesty as well as just pure laziness.

We are all sinners. I know I am and I know what my sins are. I hope and pray no one ever looks at my sins and think it okay to commit the same.

[jbalm]

Oh, don't worry about that cult comment. I'm sure he is just one of those unenlightened RLDS folks that shop at Walmart.

Even though polygamy just screams CULT...just disregard those simpletons who are too shortsighted to sign on to the LDS fantasy of God-sanctioned adultery.

Were Abraham, Jakob, Brigham Young and Mohammed vile adulterers? You know that adulterers are listed as people who don't go to Heaven, don't you?

I would guess that they are adulterers. They fit the definition. But who the hell am I to judge?

Is Warren Jeffs an adulterer? God told him to do that stuff. What about David Koresh? He was just obeying God. That dude that kidnapped Elizabeth Smart was just obeying God too.

Maybe God told Hugh Hefner to carry on the way he does. Who knows?

[jbalm]

I have spoken my peace on this now, and in a previous post I commented of how polygamy is of the love of God, no one commented, but none the less I spoke the truth. I look forward to the day when polygamy will be so called reinstated in the church, and so does my wife....and she is not some brain washed lack of confidence gal, she is as firm in The Lord as I have ever seen any man or woman, and she follows God first and foremost, and she loves being a help meet to me as well.

Don't worry, I am sure some RLDS person here thinks you have lobotomized your wife and that you are dripping with evil. @-)

Seems we know who the conformists and self-righteous are on these boards. Note, you are not one of them.

Maybe you two could start your own cult, free of all those self-righteous conformists who are unwilling to cast their morals aside when some old man says its okay to do so.

Morals...bah. Follow the old men. They won't lead you astray. They promised.

[idahommie]

Jbalm, did you just compare Brigham Young to Brian Mitchell? What church do you belong to(if any)?

[Melissa]

I have spoken my peace on this now, and in a previous post I commented of how polygamy is of the love of God, no one commented, but none the less I spoke the truth. I look forward to the day when polygamy will be so called reinstated in the church, and so does my wife....and she is not some brain washed lack of confidence gal, she is as firm in The Lord as I have ever seen any man or woman, and she follows God first and foremost, and she loves being a help meet to me as well.

Don't worry, I am sure some RLDS person here thinks you have lobotomized your wife and that you are dripping with evil. @-)

Seems we know who the conformists and self-righteous are on these boards. Note, you are not one of them.

Maybe you two could start your own cult, free of all those self-righteous conformists who are unwilling to cast their morals aside when some old man says its okay to do so.

Morals...bah. Follow the old men. They won't lead you astray. They promised.

I just had a conversation today mentioning just this...thank you. I get exactly what you are saying- where are the morals.
I wouldnt say it exactly like this but I just wanted to say thank you. I am happy to not feel so alone in this. Morals!! Truely, where are the morals?

[brrgilbert]

God Bless.

[a_member]

Hopefully my questions about other scriptural references to "sealing" didn't get lost in the shuffle. Just in case, it's this post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31602&start=120#p443046" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to know how RLDS folks view those references and how they fit into their overall theology. Thanks!

[Melissa]

What is the law if Sarah. I have never been taught this.