Fourteen Points of FTP

[Daryl]

From my Sunday School lesson today. Lesson 37
“We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet”

How do these fundamentals resonate with you?

Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
By President Ezra Taft Benson
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord," to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency - the highest quorum in the church.
14. The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer.

[TZONE]

No I cringed today in sunday sschool when they said,

there is only one prophet
only he can reeceive from the lord
he is the only seer (the president)
he reeceives for us almost insinuating that we can't receive these things
we should give heed to him and almost made him equal to Jesus
nothing has changed in the church since JS except priniples, no doctrine changed
We are dependent on him to learn from the lord
We would be lost without him

Seriously, these are some of the comments I heard today.

[SAM]

I love so much of what ETB said and wrote, but I struggle to agree with many of his points here.

[freedomforall]

Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
By President Ezra Taft Benson
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything. The prophet receives, the rest vote for its approval, right?
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works. This may be his view. We are told to prove all things(pray about), right?
3. The living prophet is more important than a dead prophet. Only if the new prophet is directed to give dates on calamities, relocation, etc.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray. True. It is unbelieving members that go astray. Big difference.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. Not needed when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. He will direct in the very hour that which is required to be said.
6. The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord," to give us scripture. True. Unbelievers question and even condemn, believers pray about and seek answers.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know. True
8. The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. True. That which is given by the spirit should be received by that same spirit.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. True. When God wants to reveal it. Even they must wait upon the Lord.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. True. Pres. Benson and others have spoken about befriending the Constitution and voting for good, wise and honest people to lead, as written in scripture.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich. I see no problem with this statement. We read that "the love of money is the root of all evil."
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or worldly. Not if he truly seeks God's will. Prophets of old who have warned become unpopular very quickly. Being told to repent does not go well with a lot of people.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency - the highest quorum in the church. Sounds good to me.
14. The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer. Aren't there scriptural references to this on both sides of the issue?

My 2 cents.

[marc]

September was the month to discuss commandments. October is the month that we cover Jesus Christ. And we were shortchanged one Sunday because of General Conference.

[samizdat]

No I cringed today in sunday sschool when they said,

there is only one prophet
only he can reeceive from the lord
he is the only seer (the president)
he reeceives for us almost insinuating that we can't receive these things
we should give heed to him and almost made him equal to Jesus
nothing has changed in the church since JS except priniples, no doctrine changed
We are dependent on him to learn from the lord
We would be lost without him

Seriously, these are some of the comments I heard today.

There are people that say that. I respond, there isn't just one prophet, there are 15.
Everyone can receive revelation from the Lord, but the President of the Church is the only one able to receive revelation for the whole Church.
There are 15 prophets, seers, and revelators. Case in Point Sustaining of Church Officers, FP, Q12A sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.
He receives for us, but is not the only one capable of receiving things for us (we also have our area, stake, and ward leaders, not to mention our families and us).
Give heed to him, but remembering that even he is below Jesus Christ.
We are independent via our scripture study and prayers to the Lord. Don't depend on the leaders for everything; they are men like us (someone needs to rehash the Uchtdorf talk in October GC)
We would be lost as a Church, without those called to be prophets, seers, and revelators (remember there are 15 of them).

That is how I would respond to those guys. Someone needs a doctrinal tongue lashing in your ward TZONE.

[AGStacker]

September was the month to discuss commandments. October is the month that we cover Jesus Christ. And we were shortchanged one Sunday because of General Conference.

Interesting...

[Jarbar]

"The prophet will never lead the church astray."
"Who said that?"
"The prophet."
"Why should I believe him?"
"Because he won't lead us astray."

Same logic as...

"Satan will never lie to you."
"Who said that?"
"Satan."
"Why should I believe him?"
"Because he will never lie to you."

We're going in circles!!

Does the thought ever occur that maybe it is a test? To see if you follow a man or if you follow the spirit?

Answer this... What if the prophet said gay marriage is ok? Does that mean it is? Aren't his words more vital to us than dead prophets? He won't lead us astray, so he must be right.

[liberty]

How come we have not heard the prophet say, "thus saith the Lord"?

[laronius]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

[keep the faith]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

Thank you for your common sense approach here Iaronius.

[Frederick]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

Interesting points. I wonder when we'll hear him say we need to put the Lectures on Faith back into the canon. Also, can any of you cite revelations and warnings we've heard him give recently? I may have missed something.

[Daryl]

oops. pardon my mind.

[keep the faith]

I think point #14 kind of sums it up for me. If we as Saints follow the call of our living Prophet to love God and love our fellow men and live according to the patterns set for us by our Savior we will indeed be blessed with power from on high. However if we reject those calls from our Prophet to do this in our personal lives we will suffer consequences that come from not living a Christ centered life. I am continuously amazed that some people get all bent out of shape when the call to follow these patterns of righteousness as outlined by our living Prophet becomes almost distasteful and bothersome to them. Repentance and personal righteousness brings joy and satisfaction into ones life. Why would that bother anyone who desires to connect with the Savior to follow that call from his living Prophet to receive just such joy by living a Christ centered life? :-\

[keep the faith]

"Come on Frederick, you know it doesn't work that way. When he does, it gets published in a manual or something. Probably would skype it to his 12 and they would skype it to the 70s and they would skype it to SP, MP & TP - all of whom have had there 2nd experience in the temple because they are the elite. Right?

God bless them for being the elite. just what this world needs - more elite people. More secret societies. More people who are on the in and have the illuminated knowledge. God bless em."

I am sorry that you feel the need to refer to the Lords Prophets in such a cynical and disrespectful way Daryl.

[laronius]

Interesting points. I wonder when we'll hear him say we need to put the Lectures on Faith back into the canon. Also, can any of you cite revelations and warnings we've heard him give recently? I may have missed something.

I've noticed the Lectures have kind of been a hot topic lately on this forum. The way I understand it is that they were removed because while the truths contained therein may have been received by revelation the lectures themselves were not revelations. In fact, Joseph Smith wrote and said many things that while true are not canonized scripture. But this doesn't make them not true. And to my knowledge no one ever said the lectures weren't true. So what's the big deal? We can gain just as much benefit from the Lectures as simply lectures as we could if they were canonized scripture.

Concerning revelations and warnings, there have been many. Maybe not the "Let's head to Missouri" kind, but every General Conference we hear what the Lord has revealed to His servants to be the most important messages we need at this time. Pres. Monson spent his entire Priesthood session talk speaking on the importance of home teaching. Apparently the Lord feels we need a little (ok, BIG) boost in that area. But as always, I walked away having learned just as much from the Spirit as I did the speakers.

[freedomforall]

"The prophet will never lead the church astray."
"Who said that?"
"The prophet."
"Why should I believe him?"
"Because he won't lead us astray."

Same logic as...

"Satan will never lie to you."
"Who said that?"
"Satan."
"Why should I believe him?"
"Because he will never lie to you."

We're going in circles!!

Does the thought ever occur that maybe it is a test? To see if you follow a man or if you follow the spirit?

Answer this... What if the prophet said gay marriage is ok? Does that mean it is? Aren't his words more vital to us than dead prophets? He won't lead us astray, so he must be right.

What do these scriptures indicate? What is the main theme? What does the Lord want us to do?


Daniel 9:6
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Daniel 9:10
10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Jeremiah 26:5
5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;

Revelation 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

2 Kings 9:7
7 And thou shalt smite the house of Ahab thy master, that I may avenge the blood of my servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the Lord, at the hand of Jezebel.

So my question is this: do we follow the prophets or do we strike them down and reap the whirlwinds of almighty God? I think God knows what He is doing in the latter days as well as He did back thousands of years ago. His word never changes. He uses prophets to express them. Rev 10:7 is close to home, so the prophets He declares does include President Monson. Think not? Ask God for discernment.

[Frederick]

The way I understand it is that they were removed because while the truths contained therein may have been received by revelation the lectures themselves were not revelations.

The Articles of Faith are not revelations. There are also other sections in the D&C that are not revelations. This argument is without merit. See the thread in the private discussion so we don't repeat points unnecessarily.

[freedomforall]

How come we have not heard the prophet say, "thus saith the Lord"?

From 1981: http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... he-prophet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states:

“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed.”

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95.) http://www.jhuston.com/Documents/jd13.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law
which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and
what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain
and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and
sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a
sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the
days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to
place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they
do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led
along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire.
JD 13:95, Brigham Young, January 2, 1870
Let us, then, you and me and all who profess to be Latter−day Saints, try to be Saints indeed. God bless you,
Amen"

[freedomforall]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

Interesting points. I wonder when we'll hear him say we need to put the Lectures on Faith back into the canon. Also, can any of you cite revelations and warnings we've heard him give recently? I may have missed something.

SEE: The'Lectures on Faith' :A Case Study in Decanonization

[embryopocket]

Let's take a look at that Wilford Woodruff quote that always seems to pop up, shall we?

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.

cue D&C 107:

And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;

And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.

Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness. - D&C 107:82-84

Brother Woodruff spoke the truth. People just choose to ignore the second half of his statement.

[jo1952]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

We shouldn't forget that our own stewardship includes stewardship over ourselves as individuals, and not just over our loved ones. It is our personal relationship with God which progresses us to exaltation; Pres. Monson does not have the power or even the right to save us. His stewardship ends where our personal relationship with God begins. More importantly, our relationship with God should come first and begins with God and us; any other direction we would allow ourselves to follow should be AFTER what God has taught us personally through the Holy Spirit. Waiting for our leaders to tell us what we should or should not believe immediately places them between us and God. It is in personally learning how to discern the voice of our Shepherd that we will finally be able to let go of depending upon others to "see" or "hear" on our behalf. In this, we will finally be able to place God first. Meanwhile though, while we are learning how to discern the kingdom of God on our own, He has given us tools (even leaders) to point us toward Him. If we find ourselves following the words and directions of others, then that is evidence that we are not putting God first; even though this is necessary for awhile. We still must learn to follow God first! God gives us prophets and leaders for the purpose of pointing us toward Him. But they are not meant to be the end-all. They are temporary, and are purposed to help us learn what we need to ultimately experience personally. God is a jealous God; and His wrath gets poured upon us when we make idols out of the tools He has given us...when we forget our first love.

[freedomforall]

When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.

He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.

He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.

See the difference between his responsibility and ours?

I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.

We shouldn't forget that our own stewardship includes stewardship over ourselves as individuals, and not just over our loved ones. It is our personal relationship with God which progresses us to exaltation; Pres. Monson does not have the power or even the right to save us. His stewardship ends where our personal relationship with God begins. More importantly, our relationship with God should come first and begins with God and us; any other direction we would allow ourselves to follow should be AFTER what God has taught us personally through the Holy Spirit. Waiting for our leaders to tell us what we should or should not believe immediately places them between us and God. It is in personally learning how to discern the voice of our Shepherd that we will finally be able to let go of depending upon others to "see" or "hear" on our behalf. In this, we will finally be able to place God first. Meanwhile though, while we are learning how to discern the kingdom of God on our own, He has given us tools (even leaders) to point us toward Him. If we find ourselves following the words and directions of others, then that is evidence that we are not putting God first; even though this is necessary for awhile. We still must learn to follow God first! God gives us prophets and leaders for the purpose of pointing us toward Him. But they are not meant to be the end-all. They are temporary, and are purposed to help us learn what we need to ultimately experience personally. God is a jealous God; and His wrath gets poured upon us when we make idols out of the tools He has given us...when we forget our first love.

Did you read my post above? If you believe in scripture then you must believe that prophets have the mantel to lead or God wouldn't have need for them. While it is true that each one of us has to enter into a covenant relationship with Christ, leaders are there to give direction to the whole of the body of Christ. God says "My house is a house of order" Order means directing everyone to the ultimate goal, each person getting there through Jesus Christ, our Savior. Prophets are like a rudder to a ship; they are necessary for the welfare of the whole. Noah was a Prophet and he lead seven other people to safety, he and he alone, getting the word from God in how to accomplish this. We do not want to limit our need for prophets. Think about it.

[jo1952]

We shouldn't forget that our own stewardship includes stewardship over ourselves as individuals, and not just over our loved ones. It is our personal relationship with God which progresses us to exaltation; Pres. Monson does not have the power or even the right to save us. His stewardship ends where our personal relationship with God begins. More importantly, our relationship with God should come first and begins with God and us; any other direction we would allow ourselves to follow should be AFTER what God has taught us personally through the Holy Spirit. Waiting for our leaders to tell us what we should or should not believe immediately places them between us and God. It is in personally learning how to discern the voice of our Shepherd that we will finally be able to let go of depending upon others to "see" or "hear" on our behalf. In this, we will finally be able to place God first. Meanwhile though, while we are learning how to discern the kingdom of God on our own, He has given us tools (even leaders) to point us toward Him. If we find ourselves following the words and directions of others, then that is evidence that we are not putting God first; even though this is necessary for awhile. We still must learn to follow God first! God gives us prophets and leaders for the purpose of pointing us toward Him. But they are not meant to be the end-all. They are temporary, and are purposed to help us learn what we need to ultimately experience personally. God is a jealous God; and His wrath gets poured upon us when we make idols out of the tools He has given us...when we forget our first love.

Did you read my post above? If you believe in scripture then you must believe that prophets have the mantel to lead or God wouldn't have need for them. While it is true that each one of us has to enter into a covenant relationship with Christ, leaders are there to give direction to the whole of the body of Christ. God says "My house is a house of order" Order means directing everyone to the ultimate goal, each person getting there through Jesus Christ, our Savior. Prophets are like a rudder to a ship; they are necessary for the welfare of the whole. Noah was a Prophet and he lead seven other people to safety, he and he alone, getting the word from God in how to accomplish this. We do not want to limit our need for prophets. Think about it.

At some point we must end our dependence upon others. We must be able to recognize our Shepherd's voice. We will not be called through prophets and others. We will be called directly. If we don't recognize that we are being called because we are still paying attention to a prophet's voice because we don't yet recognize our Shepherd's voice, we will miss our Shepherd's voice; and we won't know Him. And even though we know a prophet, if we don't know our Christ, He won't know us either.

[laronius]

We shouldn't forget that our own stewardship includes stewardship over ourselves as individuals, and not just over our loved ones. It is our personal relationship with God which progresses us to exaltation; Pres. Monson does not have the power or even the right to save us. His stewardship ends where our personal relationship with God begins. More importantly, our relationship with God should come first and begins with God and us; any other direction we would allow ourselves to follow should be AFTER what God has taught us personally through the Holy Spirit. Waiting for our leaders to tell us what we should or should not believe immediately places them between us and God. It is in personally learning how to discern the voice of our Shepherd that we will finally be able to let go of depending upon others to "see" or "hear" on our behalf. In this, we will finally be able to place God first. Meanwhile though, while we are learning how to discern the kingdom of God on our own, He has given us tools (even leaders) to point us toward Him. If we find ourselves following the words and directions of others, then that is evidence that we are not putting God first; even though this is necessary for awhile. We still must learn to follow God first! God gives us prophets and leaders for the purpose of pointing us toward Him. But they are not meant to be the end-all. They are temporary, and are purposed to help us learn what we need to ultimately experience personally. God is a jealous God; and His wrath gets poured upon us when we make idols out of the tools He has given us...when we forget our first love.

Did you read my post above? If you believe in scripture then you must believe that prophets have the mantel to lead or God wouldn't have need for them. While it is true that each one of us has to enter into a covenant relationship with Christ, leaders are there to give direction to the whole of the body of Christ. God says "My house is a house of order" Order means directing everyone to the ultimate goal, each person getting there through Jesus Christ, our Savior. Prophets are like a rudder to a ship; they are necessary for the welfare of the whole. Noah was a Prophet and he lead seven other people to safety, he and he alone, getting the word from God in how to accomplish this. We do not want to limit our need for prophets. Think about it.

At some point we must end our dependence upon others. We must be able to recognize our Shepherd's voice. We will not be called through prophets and others. We will be called directly. If we don't recognize that we are being called because we are still paying attention to a prophet's voice because we don't yet recognize our Shepherd's voice, we will miss our Shepherd's voice; and we won't know Him. And even though we know a prophet, if we don't know our Christ, He won't know us either.

Edit: My post was unkind. Sorry. Suffice it to say I look to our Prophet as a Prophet and to my God as God.