Rewriting the Constitution
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ktg
- captain of 100
- Posts: 840
Rewriting the Constitution
I attended another talk by Joel Skousen last night. One of the things he talked about that I hadn't heard before, nor had I though of before was that the Constitution will have to be rewritten at some point in the future. Most of us know that there will be a time in the future that the US will go through great tribulation. After that, a government will have to be rebuilt. Joel mentioned the idea that we would be foolish to say "let's use the Constitution that we have had for 200 years." His reasoning is that the lawyers and judges who are left will say "we have 200 years of case law and we understand the meaning of the Constitution and you average people know nothing of the law and the Constitution, so we will continue where we left off." Most of us believe that there have been countless instances where lawyers and judges have trampled the Constitution. Joel says we should start thinking about how we will 'tighten up' the language in the Constitution while preserving the principles upon which it was founded. We will have to make it lawyer and judge proof so that it can't be misinterpreted. I've always heard that the government in the millennium will be 'based upon' our current Constitution. Now that statement makes sense.
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mes5464
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 29585
- Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
I disagree with him on this matter. The Constitution we have is indorsed by Jesus Christ (D&C 98). Additionally, there have been revelations that say "this Constitution" will be the law we live by when Zion is established. The case law he talks about are garbage because they attempt to interpret that which needs no interpretation.
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gkearney
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5364
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
Just out of currosity are all the post D&C 98 amendments also so endorsed? For example the ones granting women the vote, abolishing slavery, direct election of senators, prohibition and it repeal the list goes on.mes5464 wrote:I disagree with him on this matter. The Constitution we have is indorsed by Jesus Christ (D&C 98). Additionally, there have been revelations that say "this Constitution" will be the law we live by when Zion is established. The case law he talks about are garbage because they attempt to interpret that which needs no interpretation.
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mouse
- captain of 50
- Posts: 91
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
I just don't know if I agree with that. Lawyers and judges can ALWAYS find a way around a certain law, no matter how specific the verbiage. Without a moral people, our constitution can not take affect anyways. I believe our founders really did think of every possible scenario when they pinned that document. What we need to become is a better people. With that said, Joel is a genius and he is most likely right.
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InfoWarrior82
- Level 34 Illuminated
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- Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
When the time comes to have a new law of the land (after the tribulations), Christ will be among us. He will be our lawgiver. Whatever it is, it will be foolproof.
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
Let me start by saying that the Lord gave D&C 98, 101 & 109 in 1833. I consider the parts of those revelations that address the US Constitution as His "stamp of approval".
Re. the 13 - 27th amendments; I leave it to you to figure out which amendments support the principle of freedom in maintaining the God-given rights and privileges of all people that everyone can claim simultaneously without forcing others to serve their needs, and which ones do not. Other than that, J. Reuben Clark stated that "when we begin to tamper with the Constitution, we begin to tamper with the law of Zion which God himself set up, and no one may trifle with the word of God with impunity."
13.) There had been earlier attempts to abolish involuntary servitude that never got off the ground. This ammendment seems to me to have been a necessity to put the matter to bed once and for all. This amendment gave the courts the right to sentence criminals to work under conditons of involuntary servitude as part of their punishment. But it prohibited leasing convicts to private contractors, although I think the Supreme Court has allowed cities and counties to assign convicts to work off thier fines doing so-called public works. Under this amendment Congress passed a Civil rights Act of 1875
14.) This was ratified in 1868. It became necessary to establish that persons born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction are citizens of both the U.S. and the state they live in. This amendment also prohibits states from passing laws that infringe upon the privileges or immunities of all U.S. citizens. It also establishes that "due process of law" is required to deprive a person of life, liberty and/or property. (Recent legislation and unconstitutional executive orders can circumvent this requirement.) It affirmed equal protection of the laws for all U.S. citizens and others under U.S. jurisdiction. It required that congressional representatives be apportioned according to the population of each state, and established a penalty for non-compliance. It excluded leaders of the Confederacy from serving in federal or state offices. The United States government refused liability for debts incurred aiding the rebellion of the Confederacy, for the loss of slaves resulting from the emancipation of slaves.
15.) Voting rights not to be denied bcause of race, colour or prior servitude.
16.) The income tax amendment was an infringement on the right to control of personal property. There is debate still raging as to whether this amendment was ever actually ratified. Many people have fought it; some have won, others have lost. We could argue over the original intent and morality of the income tax until the cows come home and get nowhere. It was a monkey that grew into a gorilla.
17.) This amendment transferred the election of U.S. senators from the individual state leginlatures to a popular vote. This made both the "House" and the Senate a reflection of the popular will without reference to the sovereign interests of the individual states. Another one that could be debated for ever.
18.) Prohibition of strong drink. My mother's father prospered better that usual during this time selling his "bathtub beer" to neighbors and even the local police, who were among hsi regular customers. Personally, I feel this should be an individual states' issue, not a federal issue. I probably would have supported this amendment because I'm sure the First Presidency called on Church members to support it. But it gave rise to criminal activities well above the "bathtub beer" level.
19.) Women got to vote.
20.) Government administrative issues that apparently needed to be resolved.
21.) Repeal of prohibition of alcoholic beverage. The First Presidency called on members of the Church to oppose this amendment. The voting was done on a state by state basis, and the repeal passed by the vote of one state. Utah voted to repeal. I wonder if this "disobedience" contributed any to a statement in a letter of the First Presidency of 11 October 1941 to a William C. FitzGibbon at the U.S. Treasury that read "There are numbers of the Mormon people who have not fully responded to the teachings of the Church nor to be [sic] tenets of its organizations, and who are, therefore, lukewarm in the support of the Church, its policies, principles, and doctrines."
22.) 2 term limit for the U.S. President. There is considerable discussion now about term limits for members of both houses of the US Congress. I'm on the side of no term limits for members of Congress. And I guess the same for the president.
23,) Provided a way for residents of the District of Columbia to vote for president and vice-president.
24.) This amendment allowed people to vote regardless of their tax status.
25.) Government administrative issues that I know little about.
26.) Lowered the voting age 18.
27.) If congressmen vote themselves a pay raise, it will not take effect until after the next election for which they stand.
Re. the 13 - 27th amendments; I leave it to you to figure out which amendments support the principle of freedom in maintaining the God-given rights and privileges of all people that everyone can claim simultaneously without forcing others to serve their needs, and which ones do not. Other than that, J. Reuben Clark stated that "when we begin to tamper with the Constitution, we begin to tamper with the law of Zion which God himself set up, and no one may trifle with the word of God with impunity."
13.) There had been earlier attempts to abolish involuntary servitude that never got off the ground. This ammendment seems to me to have been a necessity to put the matter to bed once and for all. This amendment gave the courts the right to sentence criminals to work under conditons of involuntary servitude as part of their punishment. But it prohibited leasing convicts to private contractors, although I think the Supreme Court has allowed cities and counties to assign convicts to work off thier fines doing so-called public works. Under this amendment Congress passed a Civil rights Act of 1875
14.) This was ratified in 1868. It became necessary to establish that persons born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction are citizens of both the U.S. and the state they live in. This amendment also prohibits states from passing laws that infringe upon the privileges or immunities of all U.S. citizens. It also establishes that "due process of law" is required to deprive a person of life, liberty and/or property. (Recent legislation and unconstitutional executive orders can circumvent this requirement.) It affirmed equal protection of the laws for all U.S. citizens and others under U.S. jurisdiction. It required that congressional representatives be apportioned according to the population of each state, and established a penalty for non-compliance. It excluded leaders of the Confederacy from serving in federal or state offices. The United States government refused liability for debts incurred aiding the rebellion of the Confederacy, for the loss of slaves resulting from the emancipation of slaves.
15.) Voting rights not to be denied bcause of race, colour or prior servitude.
16.) The income tax amendment was an infringement on the right to control of personal property. There is debate still raging as to whether this amendment was ever actually ratified. Many people have fought it; some have won, others have lost. We could argue over the original intent and morality of the income tax until the cows come home and get nowhere. It was a monkey that grew into a gorilla.
17.) This amendment transferred the election of U.S. senators from the individual state leginlatures to a popular vote. This made both the "House" and the Senate a reflection of the popular will without reference to the sovereign interests of the individual states. Another one that could be debated for ever.
18.) Prohibition of strong drink. My mother's father prospered better that usual during this time selling his "bathtub beer" to neighbors and even the local police, who were among hsi regular customers. Personally, I feel this should be an individual states' issue, not a federal issue. I probably would have supported this amendment because I'm sure the First Presidency called on Church members to support it. But it gave rise to criminal activities well above the "bathtub beer" level.
19.) Women got to vote.
20.) Government administrative issues that apparently needed to be resolved.
21.) Repeal of prohibition of alcoholic beverage. The First Presidency called on members of the Church to oppose this amendment. The voting was done on a state by state basis, and the repeal passed by the vote of one state. Utah voted to repeal. I wonder if this "disobedience" contributed any to a statement in a letter of the First Presidency of 11 October 1941 to a William C. FitzGibbon at the U.S. Treasury that read "There are numbers of the Mormon people who have not fully responded to the teachings of the Church nor to be [sic] tenets of its organizations, and who are, therefore, lukewarm in the support of the Church, its policies, principles, and doctrines."
22.) 2 term limit for the U.S. President. There is considerable discussion now about term limits for members of both houses of the US Congress. I'm on the side of no term limits for members of Congress. And I guess the same for the president.
23,) Provided a way for residents of the District of Columbia to vote for president and vice-president.
24.) This amendment allowed people to vote regardless of their tax status.
25.) Government administrative issues that I know little about.
26.) Lowered the voting age 18.
27.) If congressmen vote themselves a pay raise, it will not take effect until after the next election for which they stand.
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ktg
- captain of 100
- Posts: 840
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
Joel addressed that topic. He believes it will be up to us.InfoWarrior82 wrote:When the time comes to have a new law of the land (after the tribulations), Christ will be among us. He will be our lawgiver. Whatever it is, it will be foolproof.
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ktg
- captain of 100
- Posts: 840
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
BTW, I have a half way decent audio recording. If there is someone who might be able to clean it up and post it, let me know.
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InfoWarrior82
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10921
- Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
ktg wrote:Joel addressed that topic. He believes it will be up to us.InfoWarrior82 wrote:When the time comes to have a new law of the land (after the tribulations), Christ will be among us. He will be our lawgiver. Whatever it is, it will be foolproof.
Weird. Since what I mentioned is backed up by scripture and prophets, did he give any scripture and prophetic quotes that back up his thoughts?
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9912
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
A new constitution? I'm for it, though it would seem like 95% of the old.
New things:
I think more about how Congress works, with pork barrel problems;
problems with lobbying;
people's redresses;
etc.
Enforcement of the Constitution.
As has been said, problems are more with following what's already in it.
Mouse nailed it, though: it only works for a moral people.
New things:
I think more about how Congress works, with pork barrel problems;
problems with lobbying;
people's redresses;
etc.
Enforcement of the Constitution.
As has been said, problems are more with following what's already in it.
Mouse nailed it, though: it only works for a moral people.
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ktg
- captain of 100
- Posts: 840
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
Send me your email address and I'll forward the recording to you. That way you can hear it in his words.InfoWarrior82 wrote:ktg wrote:Joel addressed that topic. He believes it will be up to us.InfoWarrior82 wrote:When the time comes to have a new law of the land (after the tribulations), Christ will be among us. He will be our lawgiver. Whatever it is, it will be foolproof.
Weird. Since what I mentioned is backed up by scripture and prophets, did he give any scripture and prophetic quotes that back up his thoughts?
BTW, he said he has been working on a re-wording for a decade and the work he has so far is available to read on his website.
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ldsfireguy
- captain of 100
- Posts: 320
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
The original constitution WAS inspired (however, not revealed). But it was inspired for our time, and under our conditions.
The conditions of the Millenium will be very different - no wicked among us, no deprivation, no death, no hunger, and most importantly Christ will rule. Under those conditions, it is easy to see that the original constitution will be modified UNDER DIRECT REVELATION into a new document more fitting to that time and situation.
The conditions of the Millenium will be very different - no wicked among us, no deprivation, no death, no hunger, and most importantly Christ will rule. Under those conditions, it is easy to see that the original constitution will be modified UNDER DIRECT REVELATION into a new document more fitting to that time and situation.
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Matthew.B
- captain of 100
- Posts: 877
- Location: Syracuse, New York
Re: Rewriting the Constitution
I would support the re-writing of the Constitution before the establishment of Zion, under the right circumstances and with the right group of people. Most people simple don't understand the language, beliefs, and context of the Constitution nowadays, but many people would agree with the principles if they were taught them in a way that they *did* understand. A culture-wide conversation needs to happen that takes away the power of understanding from the appointed "experts" and gives everyone the tools to access and understand the principles our country was founded on.
Bro. Skousen's ideas seem reasonable and wise, IMO. New bottles for new wine; after the cleansing begins and the remnant(s) are ready to live by the eternal principles of the Gospel again, we'll need new political and religious bottles. I agree with JohnnyL in that a great majority of it will be based entirely on the current Constitution.
Bro. Skousen's ideas seem reasonable and wise, IMO. New bottles for new wine; after the cleansing begins and the remnant(s) are ready to live by the eternal principles of the Gospel again, we'll need new political and religious bottles. I agree with JohnnyL in that a great majority of it will be based entirely on the current Constitution.
