Can we get clarification on early church Tithing statements

[Col. Flagg]

I understood that you meant "Babylon" to mean "A contemptuous or dismissive term for aspects of a society seen as degenerate or oppressive." Is that not correct? If that is what you mean, then I am completely confident that investment in commercial real estate does not fall under the category of "Babylon."

Babylon is anything involving materialistic endeavors and money. The term 'investing' can only be done in Babylon. Why do people invest? To make money. Babylon = money. There's no such thing as a non-Babylonian interest-bearing account.

[Col. Flagg]

This story sort of goes with this thread:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/0 ... pay-bills/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Study Shows More Americans Are Raiding 401(k) Accounts To Pay Bills

DOWNINGTOWN, Pa. (CBS) — A new national study shows that too many of us are cashing out 401(k) accounts to pay bills.

[durangout]

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. - John 7:17

The Spirit has testified to me that paying 10% of our increase to the Church is one of His commandments. I pay my tithing and I receive spiritual strength from doing so.

This shouldn't even be an argument, if you look at the word tithing in all languages it comes from roots meaning 10 percent.

Example: Tithing in Spanish is DIEZMO ---> DIEZ = 10

After paying 10% of our increase to the LDS Church, we are encouraged to give generously to the poor. Paying tithing and helping the poor are both commandments of the Lord. How refresing!

My mother comes from a family of 12 and they lived in poverty under Communist rule in Chile during the 50's and 60's. They joined the Church and paid their tithing even though my mom/aunts and uncles only had 1 piece of bread to eat each day. Because of their faithfulness, they were greatly blessed. Men tried to break in their house on several occasions, but could not open the flimsy screen door that had no lock whatsoever. Another time, 2 men tried to rape my aunt when a light came down from heaven and struck them dead where they stood. Against all financial odds, they always had enough to eat. The Lord provided for them just like He does for anyone that obeys His commandments. They now all live here in the USA with great families. Questioning this law based on financial hardship shows a lack of faith in the Lord's promises. I promise that if you pay with a desire to give to the Lord instead of paying because you "have to do it," you will be greatly blessed in many ways temporally and spiritually.

A man of faith AND obedience.

[laronius]

The Law of Tithing is not an eternal principle, it is a temporal principle with eternal consequences, similar to the Word of Wisdom. It was instituted to fulfill two purposes 1. Fund the Kingdom of God because it exists "IN" the world and 2. To give the Saints a minimum benchmark of sacrifice. As such, the specific application of this principle can change to meet the needs of the Kingdom of God and to help us see whats expected of us. In the early days of the Church, the Church was struggling to grow and expand. This required much of the early Saints and hence the expectation to tithe on all possessions when they joined the Church. Later, when the Church was established in the Rocky Mountains and the emphasis was for the Saints to gather to Utah, there was little need to build many church buildings around the world. But when the Church entered financial difficulties, tithing was emphasized anew. Now we are in a world wide expansion mode preparing for the Lord's coming. So throughout history the needs of the Church have been fluid and so has the application of tithing. The principle is still the same though. So we shouldn't be looking at the history of tithing for answers about today but rather we should ask the question "What does the Lord require of us now?" This leads us back to the question of whether you feel those who lead the Church are inspired. I happen to believe so and as such will follow the current counsel on this principle. When the Lord does come though, the temporal principle of tithing will end and the eternal principle of the Law of Consecration, which requires us to sacrifice all, will take its place. This will not only help us all become the people we need to be to stand in God's presence, but it also will help facilitate the mass conversions that will take place around the world by providing chapels and temples to get the Lord's work done. At least thats how I see it.

[natasha]

That's how I see it too, Laronius! Nice clear post.

[AussieOi]

I can't help but feel people fill their own image of what they think tithing is about to their posts
is tithing a law or a commandment, and.when did the interpretation of 10% of "what" change from surplus, to gross/ net income?

And did those changes coincide with periods of financial difficulties/ mismanagement?

Or am I speaking ill of "THE" great and noble anointed to dare ask this?

[Seek the Truth]

I understood that you meant "Babylon" to mean "A contemptuous or dismissive term for aspects of a society seen as degenerate or oppressive." Is that not correct? If that is what you mean, then I am completely confident that investment in commercial real estate does not fall under the category of "Babylon."

Babylon is anything involving materialistic endeavors and money. The term 'investing' can only be done in Babylon. Why do people invest? To make money. Babylon = money. There's no such thing as a non-Babylonian interest-bearing account.

Citation needed.

Investment has been done since Adam.

[Seek the Truth]

I can't help but feel people fill their own image of what they think tithing is about to their posts
is tithing a law or a commandment, and.when did the interpretation of 10% of "what" change from surplus, to gross/ net income?

And did those changes coincide with periods of financial difficulties/ mismanagement?

Or am I speaking ill of "THE" great and noble anointed to dare ask this?

Are you unable to find out the answers to your multitudinous questions on your own?

[laronius]

Orson Pratt has said, “The very moment that we set aside the living oracles we set aside the revelations of God. Why? Because the revelations of God command us plainly that we shall harken to the living oracles. Hence, if we undertake to follow the written word, and at the same time do not give heed to the living oracles of God, the written word will condemn us. …” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 373.)

This is the perspective I take when trying to work out seemingly conflicting statements between the past and present. I don't have first hand knowledge of what took place back then, but I know what the living oracles say today and the spirit whispereth to me that what they say is true. Therefore I try to place the past in context from what I know is true about the present. They had prophets for their day and we have prophets for our day. Seems straight forward enough to me.

[AussieOi]

Orson Pratt has said, “The very moment that we set aside the living oracles we set aside the revelations of God. Why? Because the revelations of God command us plainly that we shall harken to the living oracles. Hence, if we undertake to follow the written word, and at the same time do not give heed to the living oracles of God, the written word will condemn us. …” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 373.)

This is the perspective I take when trying to work out seemingly conflicting statements between the past and present. I don't have first hand knowledge of what took place back then, but I know what the living oracles say today and the spirit whispereth to me that what they say is true. Therefore I try to place the past in context from what I know is true about the present. They had prophets for their day and we have prophets for our day. Seems straight forward enough to me.

so you are telling me that you still believe in the Adam God directive?

or is Orson telling me to ignore scripture and follow a non interpretation of tithing?

[AussieOi]

I can't help but feel people fill their own image of what they think tithing is about to their posts
is tithing a law or a commandment, and.when did the interpretation of 10% of "what" change from surplus, to gross/ net income?

And did those changes coincide with periods of financial difficulties/ mismanagement?

Or am I speaking ill of "THE" great and noble anointed to dare ask this?

Are you unable to find out the answers to your multitudinous questions on your own?

are you incapable of answering any?

[laronius]

Orson Pratt has said, “The very moment that we set aside the living oracles we set aside the revelations of God. Why? Because the revelations of God command us plainly that we shall harken to the living oracles. Hence, if we undertake to follow the written word, and at the same time do not give heed to the living oracles of God, the written word will condemn us. …” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 373.)

This is the perspective I take when trying to work out seemingly conflicting statements between the past and present. I don't have first hand knowledge of what took place back then, but I know what the living oracles say today and the spirit whispereth to me that what they say is true. Therefore I try to place the past in context from what I know is true about the present. They had prophets for their day and we have prophets for our day. Seems straight forward enough to me.

so you are telling me that you still believe in the Adam God directive?

or is Orson telling me to ignore scripture and follow a non interpretation of tithing?

Like I stated originally, I follow the living prophets. They say the Adam God idea is not true and I agree. I wasn't there when BY made his comments so I must judge the past based on what I know to be true right now.

And I think what Orson Pratt was getting at is that God never contradicts himself. Rather, whenever there appears to be a contridiction it is only because we do not see the complete picture. I for one, have never had any problems reconciling the scriptures with what our modern prophets have taught. Whenever I study the words of God with the Spirit, both modern and ancient, I see no contradictions. So to say one is wrong while the other is right is to admit that we don't understand one or both.

[jnjnelson]

Babylon = money.

Tithing = money. Money = the ability to provide for my family. Hmm. Babylon doesn't seem so bad by your definition.

[chemish]

So we shouldn't be looking at the history of tithing for answers about today but rather we should ask the question "What does the Lord require of us now?"

while i agree with a lot of what you said i would say that this quote from section 119 of D&C would detest your previous statement and question.


"...and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord."

[AussieOi]

Stop quoting the ACTUAL scripture related to tithing.

we have modern prophets who.have made it abundantly clear what tithing is- and that is 10% of our increase.

if we are in doubt as to what that is, then refer context of "surplus".

Where in doubt, it.is between a person and the lord.

Apparently, I am wrong for deciding upon the same definition Joseph smith who wrote it, and those people at the time understood it to be and lived.

I would like verification that gods STANDING law means other than what he said in the 1830's.

apparently I am in fail mode.because I cannot answer questions.I posed (typically most people post questions because they couldn't find the answer themselves but it appears that logic leap fails people)

[Seek the Truth]

I can't help but feel people fill their own image of what they think tithing is about to their posts
is tithing a law or a commandment, and.when did the interpretation of 10% of "what" change from surplus, to gross/ net income?

And did those changes coincide with periods of financial difficulties/ mismanagement?

Or am I speaking ill of "THE" great and noble anointed to dare ask this?

Are you unable to find out the answers to your multitudinous questions on your own?

are you incapable of answering any?

I certainly can, I have done so for myself and others, many times on this forum even.

In your case, it seems that all you can do is ask, and you aren't capable of answering your questions. Like many others here it is hard not to read your posts and be anything other than overwhelmingly concerned for your well being.

A couple of things have occured to me recently (in no order);

1) Your questions seem to be infinite. For every 1 answered you seem to have 2 that take their place. I think the math here speaks for itself (infinite loop);

so it appears that the way forward for you is to reconsider. IE, instead of trying to answer 1 million questions, lets ask this;

if we picked just one topic instead of your scattergun approach, answered your questions to the full, spend a lot of time and really fully addressed the issue, what would it do for you? Would you feel better? What would feeling better look like? Or, would we simply move quickly to another topic, then another, then another, with no end in sight.

I've been through this process

So what I would suggest to you, is that there are not a million questions to answer for you here. Probably it is just one, or two root question, that if answered the rest would resolve. And if we can find out what those are we may be able to make progress.

2) It could be that the above will not work, in which case we would need to explore the option of you giving up on this and going to the veil directly for instruction, for it is beyond the ability of a mortal man to address your concerns. I would bone up on the 2nd Comforter material and pray for Jesus to come to you personally, and leave the internet behind.

My .2

[Seek the Truth]

Stop quoting the ACTUAL scripture related to tithing.

we have modern prophets who.have made it abundantly clear what tithing is- and that is 10% of our increase.

if we are in doubt as to what that is, then refer context of "surplus".

Where in doubt, it.is between a person and the lord.

Apparently, I am wrong for deciding upon the same definition Joseph smith who wrote it, and those people at the time understood it to be and lived.

I would like verification that gods STANDING law means other than what he said in the 1830's.

apparently I am in fail mode.because I cannot answer questions.I posed (typically most people post questions because they couldn't find the answer themselves but it appears that logic leap fails people)

Aussie, I would say the following;

In the 1830's most people had farms and operated as businesses in modern parlance, ie had gross revenues and profits and whatnot.

Today we talk in terms of profits, earnings, corporate income and so forth but they are all the same thing (synonyms)

As an investor I pay tithing on the profits (increase, surplus) of my investments, not the gross revenue of the closed position; I suppose this could also be called "surplus";

Nowadays nearly everyone no longer owns a business as they used to, now we are (in America) W2 employees for the most part, so "surplus" or "increase" doesn't make sense to non-business owners. Business owners understand it very well. We pay tithing on business profits, not gross revenue. My understanding is that a lot of the old language was based on farming communities, which doesn't make sense to people anymore.

Under the tax laws corporate income is viewed the same as individual income, even though they aren't really the same to human beings. Ther relevant thing here is that individual income would be the same as surplus or increase in the old language, so yes you need to pay 10% of income.

Thank goodness for modern Prophets to clarify the laws of God for us in our situation. Otherwise I have no idea how most people would sort this stuff out.

[AussieOi]

Um, they did?
Isn't that the problem?
So what kind of standing law was that do you think?

Was it designed to keep us poor?
Pay off the churches debts?

Have we discussed what it was originally intended for?
I guess they left it up to us for obvious reasons eh

And all those people living with the levites and old testament world were farmers too?

Can my labour be an input?

[Seek the Truth]

Again Aussie, I answered 1 question and it resulted in 9 new ones and you don't seem to feel any better. The math is not good on this. We won't get anywhere this way.

Insanity they say is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We need to make a change Aussie.

[AussieOi]

I agree I think we do.

Why don't you start by adopting the proper mode of tithing as per the d and c?!!!

I tell you, then being able to give these.offerings (I mean it makes sense now doesn't it. If tithing is on surplus, there actually IS money left to pay a generous fast offering, and give to charities/ those in need.

it is a really uplifting experience to see people's lives improved through giving, my wife and I are teaching our kids about "charity/ministering/ giving" and we can witness Christ and, and, that we are LDS.

I really love tithing now that I actually understand it, and I _want_to find people to help out too.

it really.is spiritually envigorating.

I can't recommend it enough!

Everybody wins.

[Seek the Truth]

So you already had answers to all your questions and were just pulling our legs?

[drjme]

Stop quoting the ACTUAL scripture related to tithing.

we have modern prophets who.have made it abundantly clear what tithing is- and that is 10% of our increase.

if we are in doubt as to what that is, then refer context of "surplus".

Where in doubt, it.is between a person and the lord.

Apparently, I am wrong for deciding upon the same definition Joseph smith who wrote it, and those people at the time understood it to be and lived.

I would like verification that gods STANDING law means other than what he said in the 1830's.

apparently I am in fail mode.because I cannot answer questions.I posed (typically most people post questions because they couldn't find the answer themselves but it appears that logic leap fails people)

Aussie, I would say the following;

In the 1830's most people had farms and operated as businesses in modern parlance, ie had gross revenues and profits and whatnot.

Today we talk in terms of profits, earnings, corporate income and so forth but they are all the same thing (synonyms)

As an investor I pay tithing on the profits (increase, surplus) of my investments, not the gross revenue of the closed position; I suppose this could also be called "surplus";

Nowadays nearly everyone no longer owns a business as they used to, now we are (in America) W2 employees for the most part, so "surplus" or "increase" doesn't make sense to non-business owners. Business owners understand it very well. We pay tithing on business profits, not gross revenue. My understanding is that a lot of the old language was based on farming communities, which doesn't make sense to people anymore.

Under the tax laws corporate income is viewed the same as individual income, even though they aren't really the same to human beings. Ther relevant thing here is that individual income would be the same as surplus or increase in the old language, so yes you need to pay 10% of income.

Thank goodness for modern Prophets to clarify the laws of God for us in our situation. Otherwise I have no idea how most people would sort this stuff out.

Hey your position is confusing. you say you pay tithing only on the profits, but then say people need to pay 10% of income. how many times has the rules on tithing been changed over the last hundred or so years. from 2%of net, to 10% of surplus, to 10% of net assets and then 10% of surplus. to current 10% of Net on personal income, but only 10% of profit if you are self employed.

some even argue that income from labour isn't even income/increase, it's direct trade. an even deal. money exchanged for skill and time.

for some reason employment wages are singled out under modern tax law (not in scripture) as being unable to claim deductions for expenses incurred in the carrying out of the work. this is only the case in the modern era.

say I am an employed builder and I carry out my work for $30 dollars an hour. I use my own vehicle, pay for my fuel to go to work, buy my own tools to carry out my work, I store my tools at home and have a small office I have general expenses in the home that are required to keep me up to date and organized. I use the phone, internet, power to keep my workload organized. I cannot claim tax refunds on these expenses. I am required to pay tithing on 10% of net income.

Now say I am a sole trader building contractor I carry out my work for $35 dollars an hour. I use my own vehicle, pay for fuel to get to the job. I bought all my own tools to carry out my work. I store my tools at home and have a small office to keep my jobs organized. I use phone, internet, power etc to keep my workload organized. I claim expenses for phone,internet and power usage, office space used in my home, I claim a portion of my rent/mortgage as an expense. I claim garage space as storage area expense, I claim the cost of the vehicle, servicing, fuel, registration. I claim tool expenses, clothing expenses, cleaning expenses. My income is now classed as 'revenue' or 'turnover' I can claim all my expenses to reduce my total revenue and I am left with Profit. I then pay 10% tithes on Profit.

the difference in amount is vast the only the only difference between the 2 being a legal entity the individual is operating under.

[AussieOi]

drjme's
on the money Post thumbs up you nailed it clear


ahhh, the joy of family trusts.

[AussieOi]

So you already had answers to all your questions and were just pulling our legs?

I Was looking for possible verification of peripheral event's

[AGStacker]

When God establishes a law, like He did in section 119, no man has authority to change it. The law is 10% of your "interest annually". You and your family decide between the Lord what "interest annually" is.

I have come to the conclusion, yes in opposition to most of the brethren, that 10% "interest annually" is my expendable income after paying for my basic needs. My wife doesn't quite agree so we compromised for now. 20-30% of what we'd originally pay to tithing will go directly to helping the poor and needy and the rest will go to tithe.

No man, prophet or apostle, has authority to change, alter or decree any other law to replace the law of tithing unless specifically told to as a direct revelation from the Lord. The Lord doesn't change laws that He establishes. He may replace the law with something easier because of unfaithfulness.

People keep complaining that too many here "criticize" the brethren. Disagreeing with the brethren isn't a "cardinal sin". Speaking of cardinals, too many Latter-day Saints admire the brethren as the Catholics admire the pope.

Also, realize that your tithing, as described in the Doctrine and Covenants, DOES NOT GO TO HELPING THE POOR AND NEEDY! Which is fine because that is the law the Lord gave. The commandment to help the needy is great and you can't hope, nor can I, that paying tithing will substitute this commandment nor fast offerings.