Is Denver Snuffer why people are questioning the church?

[shadow]

Does anyone know how much money President Monson or any of the twelve make on their many book sales? Or if they donate all proceeds to a charitable cause? Just wondering.....

Not sure and it doesn't matter, which is why I could care less what the Snuffer does, or says he does, with sales proceeds.

The point is this- that for me to understand what Snuffer is teaching, I have to buy his books. This has been said multiple times on this site. I don't need to find or understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ by purchasing a book or books from President Monson or any of the twelve. They don't claim I need to read their books to "get it". Get it?

And I sincerely thank you one4freedom for the offer but I'll pass. I've read enough from the Snuff's "desk" to know I don't need nor care to read any of his works and wonders. I see the bitter "fruits" of many who almost worship the guy and I care not to wander that strange path.

[Jason]

Ok, I couldn't resist.... I don't defend Denver because I think it's so important that people think he is a great guy. I could care less about that. I defend Him because I think it's such a shame many would reject such a beautiful and important message that he offers in his other 6 books testifying of Christ and the Prophets over a few things they disagree with him on his views about history or where the church is headed or on some other non related things.

You probably aren't seeing people running to President Monsons Defense so much because there has not even been ONE thread devoted to bashing him and his character like there has been of Denver. NOT ONE THREAD have I EVER seen with Monsons name tearing him down and tearing him apart. However, there are MANY doing just that to Denver and mostly its been by people who haven't even bothered to read his books to begin with. I have seen a few concerned people "question" leadership choices in VERY general manner and even condemn a few of those choices but I have NEVER seen anyone attack the brethren's character or call them liars. If I did, I would certainly have something to say about that. There is actually only a small handful of people on this forum who I have ever noticed that make a bit of a habit questioning the brethren's choices. (Not that I even care about the questions. They are just questions for the most part. Not defamation of Character of individual brethren. ) But NONE of those handful of people have I EVER seen over in the Approaching the Heavenly Gift section of the forum participating.

Does anyone know how much money President Monson or any of the twelve make on their many book sales? Or if they donate all proceeds to a charitable cause? Just wondering.....

Is Denver on an equal level with President Monson?

Do we spend more time reading and studying works of others rather than the 15 men who are the Lord's anointed and who have been given the keys of the kingdom? Our future judges at the gate?

Are we obedient to the law we currently have or are we shooting beyond the mark? Desirous for things that will ultimately destroy us?

It is interesting that so many who have left the church feel they have greater light and knowledge than what they previously had. That they are on a higher plain and have a closer relationship (getting direction directly rather than via the Lord's appointed mouthpieces) with God.

I have no clue on Denver's personal standing nor do I intend to do anything to change that. I've read half of one of his books (2nd Comforter) and haven't proceeded further. There were some things I found insightful but I didn't agree with the overall direction. Maybe its meat and I'm in need of milk. It was enough for me. To each their own on it.

That said we have been warned and it behooves us to do our best to wise and careful. I pointed out in the Wolves and Sheep thread that everything is not as it seems here. People rant off about certain things or history and when you trace their sources back you get a whole different perspective than when you initially started.

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ChelC]

For those of you for whom reading Snuffer was a turning point, what was it that the words of our prophet lacked to encourage the same? What was different about his message?

Here is an example ChelC. It is not about saving doctrine, but the principal is the same. I have never heard any of our leaders be so forward in addressing these concerns, but maybe I have just missed it. I wonder what would happen if someone gave this talk in conference....would be interesting.

I am a Mormon, Part 1
The rant by the MSNBC reporter denigrating Mormonism, provoked by the political season we are in, has inspired the following response:

By faith I self-identify as "Mormon" because that was what we called ourselves when I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe the faith, accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, and have received the ordinances offered by the church, including the temple rites. I appreciate and respect these rites and trust in them as a covenant between myself and God.

It is as silly a proposition for someone from my faith to "interpret" my beliefs and say I'm "not a good Mormon" or that I'm "not a faithful Mormon" as it is for the larger "Christian" community to say that Latter-day Saints aren't "Christian." (I'll get to that in Part 3) In this, however, I want to look at the criticism of Mormonism by the self-identifying "Christians."

I'll concede that Mormons don't accept Historic Christianity. I don't accept it. I think it is riddled with errors, believes in a falsely constructed set of mental gyrations which produce an incoherent definition of the Godhead that even self-proclaimed "Christians" admit they can't understand. I am not sure they could even say they actually believe it. At least those who have it explained to them don't believe it. What does "uncreate" and "of the same substance" and "not dividing the parts" of the three members of the Godhead give us, anyway? It produces a God who is "wholly other" and therefore as alien to me as the stuff living in tubes beside the volcanic openings on the bottom of the Pacific. That God (or those Gods) or whatever sense you want to make of it, is something I reject. Not only do I reject it, it repulses me. It makes me think the Historic Christian God is a complete fabrication, unscriptural in origin, incomprehensible in form, the product of such contradictory assertions that only a fool could trust in the existence of such a thing. I reject it. Period. It is damned foolish for anyone to trust in it and think it will save them. It won't. It is a complete fabrication and utter nonsense. Now, having said that, I have no interest in questioning their "Christianity." If they want to believe that, they are free to do so and call themselves Christians.

On the other hand, I do believe in Jesus Christ. Not in the sense that He's everywhere and nowhere, but that He at one time occupied an actual manger on the evening of His birth. He was baptized in water by John the Baptist in the Jordan River. His Father witnessed it; not from "inside Jesus" because they were comingled; instead the Father (a separate Being occupying a separate location) looked down, saw His Son baptized, and then sent a sign to testify of the Son while speaking in a voice heard by John the Baptist. I believe in Jesus who was crucified, died, was laid to rest in a borrowed tomb, and then rose from the dead. I believe in the man whose body was torn and had the prints of nails in His hands and feet, and who then returned to life. I believe in that Jesus. He showed those hands to 11 surviving Apostles and then to a crowd gathered in the Americas. All of them touched His physical, wounded hands. I believe in Him. Because of my belief in Him, I have done whatever I have come to understand He wanted from me. As a result, I have obtained faith in Him. Moreover, because of the things I have offered in obedience to Him, and by making an acceptable sacrifice, and enduring what others apparently are not willing in this day to endure, I know Him. I know His hands have wounds, His arms are open to welcome those who will come to Him, and He embraces those whom He saves. He is not a God of the dead or the distant, but the God of the Living. Real. Tangible. Resurrected and living now.

So when Historic Christianity presumes to judge my faith and relegate me to non-Christian, I'm absolutely willing to say I do not believe as you do. I reject, outright, what you say about Christ. It is nonsense to me, and I refuse to be included among those who claim to follow Historic Christianity. It is powerless to save. It is the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture. Your creeds are an abomination to God. He has said so. I believe Him. Consequently I MUST reject your creeds. But despite this, I still have faith in Christ. Not as you do, but as I do.

If your inauthentic, incomprehensible, creedal God wants to damn me because I do not accept the creeds of Historic Christianity, then I'm pleased to go into a lake of fire and brimstone and enjoy the heat. I think it is stupid to think that kind of flimsy and man-concocted God exists. And even more foolish to think your pious condescension is going to bind God to accept your opinions about my faith. I am Christian. Just not dazzled by your creedal nonsense.

I've studied the pre-Nicean debates, am acquainted with the political and social arguments leading up to standardizing the disputes of then-extant Christianity, and know why they returned again to adopt the follow-on creeds of the Apostles and Athenasian Creed. Here, for you good Historic Christian readers, is what your creeds say I must believe to be saved:


We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

To me this is not merely confusion, it is complete crap. Undiluted and unfiltered. I agree there is not "three incomprehensibles" here, but dozens. And there are not "one uncreated" thing going on here, but instead many foolish mental creations launched in a torrent of contradictory and nonsensical gibberish. It is worthy of Lewis Carroll. They multiply as soon as you begin to read them. It is nothing I can, do or ever would accept; and certainly not something to be worshipped. The better approach might be to adopt Through the Looking Glass in its place. At least that nonsense is interrupted occasionally by brilliant prose. This "Christian" creedal stuff is neither prosaic nor sensible. And, all the worse, to be saved you "must thus think of the Trinity!" Well, there you go. You've set the bar too high for me. I cannot pass over. I cannot get to "Go." I surrender in my inability to manage this capacity to "thus think of the Trinity" because my mind requires something "comprehensible" rather than "incomprehensible." Or "Incomprehensible."

Christ said it was "eternal life to know" God. (John 17: 3.) Your God is by your own definition "Incomprehensible," and therefore cannot be known. So you see, you're damned too if you take this stuff seriously. Because you can't "think thus of the Trinity" and comprehend, much less "know" the only true God. So you are as damned as I in your profession of the "Incomprehensible" God of your creed.

However, I allow you the privilege of believing this stuff. I trust your sincerity when you say you do believe it. I do not question whether you are in your right mind for claiming to believe and to "think thus of the Trinity." After all, you have a whole lot of history on your side. I respect that. But I'd ask that you not presume to speak for God when you try to speak about Him. Unless He has said it, then I'm not particularly interested in what men have to say about Him. Furthermore, I do not believe Historic Christian Councils are entitled to any respect in their compromises and voting to establish the "truth" about God.

Either you've met with Him, have a message from Him, and can tell me what He said to you, or you have a political rally and you've produced merely more noise, like any political convention does.

This creedal system has resulted in a history of excesses designed to protect it from criticism and to coerce skeptics. I will touch upon that in the next post.

Wonder no longer Reese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzE6QFj6maQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow! That's actually funny how closely it parallels. A great talk.

[marc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzE6QFj6maQ

Great video, Mark! Thank you! I love Elder Holland's talks.

[RabbanahLlama]

Snuffer should have quit his blog the first time he said he was going to.

You should not put your trust in  man when it comes to spiritual matters. Snuffer, Amonhi, Pontius or anyone else. If you do you are a fool. Go ahead and try to justify yourselves all you want, but that's what you're doing. If you lack knowledge try asking God instead.

I see one of two things going on here.

1 - Denver Snuffer is deceived and doesn't realize it.

Or...

2- Denver Snuffer is deceived and knows it. Making him a liar and a fraud.

Either way he could use a "frank and open rebuke", as Brother Joseph would say, to see where his heart really is.

[marc]

RabbanahLlama, who are you addressing?

[awake]

Joseph Smith said if you could gaze into heaven for five minutes you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject. Snuffer knows a lot, but doesn't know near what he should know if he's telling the truth.

Very true.

[marc]

Well, yeah, but who else has gazed into heaven for even one minute? Is someone implying that Denver has gazed into heaven? That is not what I understand it means to receive the Second Comforter. Joseph also said that we all should seek our calling and election, patiently, until we receive it. Jesus Christ, Himself, exhorts us to call upon Him and see His face in D&C 93:1.

[ChelC]

For those of you for whom reading Snuffer was a turning point, what was it that the words of our prophet lacked to encourage the same? What was different about his message?

Here is an example ChelC. It is not about saving doctrine, but the principal is the same. I have never heard any of our leaders be so forward in addressing these concerns, but maybe I have just missed it. I wonder what would happen if someone gave this talk in conference....would be interesting.

I am a Mormon, Part 1
The rant by the MSNBC reporter denigrating Mormonism, provoked by the political season we are in, has inspired the following response:

By faith I self-identify as "Mormon" because that was what we called ourselves when I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe the faith, accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, and have received the ordinances offered by the church, including the temple rites. I appreciate and respect these rites and trust in them as a covenant between myself and God.

It is as silly a proposition for someone from my faith to "interpret" my beliefs and say I'm "not a good Mormon" or that I'm "not a faithful Mormon" as it is for the larger "Christian" community to say that Latter-day Saints aren't "Christian." (I'll get to that in Part 3) In this, however, I want to look at the criticism of Mormonism by the self-identifying "Christians."

I'll concede that Mormons don't accept Historic Christianity. I don't accept it. I think it is riddled with errors, believes in a falsely constructed set of mental gyrations which produce an incoherent definition of the Godhead that even self-proclaimed "Christians" admit they can't understand. I am not sure they could even say they actually believe it. At least those who have it explained to them don't believe it. What does "uncreate" and "of the same substance" and "not dividing the parts" of the three members of the Godhead give us, anyway? It produces a God who is "wholly other" and therefore as alien to me as the stuff living in tubes beside the volcanic openings on the bottom of the Pacific. That God (or those Gods) or whatever sense you want to make of it, is something I reject. Not only do I reject it, it repulses me. It makes me think the Historic Christian God is a complete fabrication, unscriptural in origin, incomprehensible in form, the product of such contradictory assertions that only a fool could trust in the existence of such a thing. I reject it. Period. It is damned foolish for anyone to trust in it and think it will save them. It won't. It is a complete fabrication and utter nonsense. Now, having said that, I have no interest in questioning their "Christianity." If they want to believe that, they are free to do so and call themselves Christians.

On the other hand, I do believe in Jesus Christ. Not in the sense that He's everywhere and nowhere, but that He at one time occupied an actual manger on the evening of His birth. He was baptized in water by John the Baptist in the Jordan River. His Father witnessed it; not from "inside Jesus" because they were comingled; instead the Father (a separate Being occupying a separate location) looked down, saw His Son baptized, and then sent a sign to testify of the Son while speaking in a voice heard by John the Baptist. I believe in Jesus who was crucified, died, was laid to rest in a borrowed tomb, and then rose from the dead. I believe in the man whose body was torn and had the prints of nails in His hands and feet, and who then returned to life. I believe in that Jesus. He showed those hands to 11 surviving Apostles and then to a crowd gathered in the Americas. All of them touched His physical, wounded hands. I believe in Him. Because of my belief in Him, I have done whatever I have come to understand He wanted from me. As a result, I have obtained faith in Him. Moreover, because of the things I have offered in obedience to Him, and by making an acceptable sacrifice, and enduring what others apparently are not willing in this day to endure, I know Him. I know His hands have wounds, His arms are open to welcome those who will come to Him, and He embraces those whom He saves. He is not a God of the dead or the distant, but the God of the Living. Real. Tangible. Resurrected and living now.

So when Historic Christianity presumes to judge my faith and relegate me to non-Christian, I'm absolutely willing to say I do not believe as you do. I reject, outright, what you say about Christ. It is nonsense to me, and I refuse to be included among those who claim to follow Historic Christianity. It is powerless to save. It is the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture. Your creeds are an abomination to God. He has said so. I believe Him. Consequently I MUST reject your creeds. But despite this, I still have faith in Christ. Not as you do, but as I do.

If your inauthentic, incomprehensible, creedal God wants to damn me because I do not accept the creeds of Historic Christianity, then I'm pleased to go into a lake of fire and brimstone and enjoy the heat. I think it is stupid to think that kind of flimsy and man-concocted God exists. And even more foolish to think your pious condescension is going to bind God to accept your opinions about my faith. I am Christian. Just not dazzled by your creedal nonsense.

I've studied the pre-Nicean debates, am acquainted with the political and social arguments leading up to standardizing the disputes of then-extant Christianity, and know why they returned again to adopt the follow-on creeds of the Apostles and Athenasian Creed. Here, for you good Historic Christian readers, is what your creeds say I must believe to be saved:


We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

To me this is not merely confusion, it is complete crap. Undiluted and unfiltered. I agree there is not "three incomprehensibles" here, but dozens. And there are not "one uncreated" thing going on here, but instead many foolish mental creations launched in a torrent of contradictory and nonsensical gibberish. It is worthy of Lewis Carroll. They multiply as soon as you begin to read them. It is nothing I can, do or ever would accept; and certainly not something to be worshipped. The better approach might be to adopt Through the Looking Glass in its place. At least that nonsense is interrupted occasionally by brilliant prose. This "Christian" creedal stuff is neither prosaic nor sensible. And, all the worse, to be saved you "must thus think of the Trinity!" Well, there you go. You've set the bar too high for me. I cannot pass over. I cannot get to "Go." I surrender in my inability to manage this capacity to "thus think of the Trinity" because my mind requires something "comprehensible" rather than "incomprehensible." Or "Incomprehensible."

Christ said it was "eternal life to know" God. (John 17: 3.) Your God is by your own definition "Incomprehensible," and therefore cannot be known. So you see, you're damned too if you take this stuff seriously. Because you can't "think thus of the Trinity" and comprehend, much less "know" the only true God. So you are as damned as I in your profession of the "Incomprehensible" God of your creed.

However, I allow you the privilege of believing this stuff. I trust your sincerity when you say you do believe it. I do not question whether you are in your right mind for claiming to believe and to "think thus of the Trinity." After all, you have a whole lot of history on your side. I respect that. But I'd ask that you not presume to speak for God when you try to speak about Him. Unless He has said it, then I'm not particularly interested in what men have to say about Him. Furthermore, I do not believe Historic Christian Councils are entitled to any respect in their compromises and voting to establish the "truth" about God.

Either you've met with Him, have a message from Him, and can tell me what He said to you, or you have a political rally and you've produced merely more noise, like any political convention does.

This creedal system has resulted in a history of excesses designed to protect it from criticism and to coerce skeptics. I will touch upon that in the next post.

It's a good article, Reese. I hope you watched the video Mark posted.

This is my last day on the forum for a while, so I won't get to follow this thread through much longer. Anything I need to develop my relationship with my Savior I feel I already have available to me for free, and freely available. I appreciate those of you who will talk to me about this honestly without getting your defenses up. Thank you, Reese for that.

I find all of this (not just the Snuffer stuff) concerning enough that I just don't find the forum to be the best use of my time. I feel like I have to defend our leaders so much that it's almost all I'm doing here. I wish I could see past all of that and keep up my participation on other subjects, but that's just not me.

I pray that all of us will struggle through the trials set before us and come out stronger. I truly wish all of you the very best. All I can do is be myself, and share with you what I know. I know God lives and that Jesus Christ, his son, suffered to redeem us. I know that President Monson is called of God to direct this church. I know the Spirit will direct my paths as I remain worthy of it. I know that all of my most horrible mistakes and regrets can be overcome and erased through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. I know that repentance and reliance on Christ is our only hope, and it is a bright hope!

I've been told by several people that if I don't have the Spirit directing me to read these books, they aren't for me. The Spirit is directing me to do two things, share my testimony and take a break from the forum.

Can I just make one request? Don't let your criticism of the church put a wedge between you and your church leaders and family. Don't let it define this forum. Don't give Satan the opportunity to use it as a stumbling block for you or those within your influence.

[mattctr]

RabbanahLlama,
I think most of us have enough faith in Mormonism and eventual destiny of the church to not get shaken by every personality and issue that presents itself on life's stage, including a Mormon leader who gets caught in a lie (Elder Dunn), or a guy like Denver Snuffer. If you feel a strong desire to rebuke Denver Snuffer, go ahead and rebuke him. You've done so here in every post since you joined the forum.
However, if you feel it your obligation to rebuke him, I recommend you do it to him directly -- one person to another, as opposed to here. Also, if you choose to rebuke him, do it as scripture recommends, "with sharpness" (accuracy), showing forth an outpouring of love afterwards. In order to be accurate in your rebuke, please address and counter the claims where you think he errs and back up your claims.
Personally, I can appreciate what Denver, Dunn, and anyone else has to say without getting too bent out of shape over it -- unless of course we're talking politics. ahah All the best!

[Jason]

This is my last day on the forum for a while, so I won't get to follow this thread through much longer. Anything I need to develop my relationship with my Savior I feel I already have available to me for free, and freely available. I appreciate those of you who will talk to me about this honestly without getting your defenses up. Thank you, Reese for that.

I find all of this (not just the Snuffer stuff) concerning enough that I just don't find the forum to be the best use of my time. I feel like I have to defend our leaders so much that it's almost all I'm doing here. I wish I could see past all of that and keep up my participation on other subjects, but that's just not me.

I pray that all of us will struggle through the trials set before us and come out stronger. I truly wish all of you the very best. All I can do is be myself, and share with you what I know. I know God lives and that Jesus Christ, his son, suffered to redeem us. I know that President Monson is called of God to direct this church. I know the Spirit will direct my paths as I remain worthy of it. I know that all of my most horrible mistakes and regrets can be overcome and erased through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. I know that repentance and reliance on Christ is our only hope, and it is a bright hope!

I've been told by several people that if I don't have the Spirit directing me to read these books, they aren't for me. The Spirit is directing me to do two things, share my testimony and take a break from the forum.

Can I just make one request? Don't let your criticism of the church put a wedge between you and your church leaders and family. Don't let it define this forum. Don't give Satan the opportunity to use it as a stumbling block for you or those within your influence.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts ChelC!!! I need to follow your lead!

[sonofliberty]

Denver Snuffer wrote: I got an email stating: "Job is not pious fiction. D&C 121:10 reads, 'Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.'" The reference in Section 121 does not settle the question of historicity. It merely employs Job as a reference point to console the imprisoned Joseph Smith. That leaves whether or not Job is a real person unresolved. Job, like many of the Psalms, was borrowed from other surrounding cultures and adopted as part of the Jewish religious text. This has resulted in many scholars concluding that he wasn't a real person, but a character developed to tell a morality tale. I'm not challenging that view, I'm accepting it."

So let me get this straight, Denver Snuffer is willing to accept the opinion of many scholars that Job is a fictional character created to tell a "morality tale", but not willing to entirely accept the claim of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve that all the keys of the Priesthood, to include the sealing power, are still on the Earth residing in the current President of the Church.

The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, when they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek." -Denver Snuffer

It is rather convenient that he claims to not be seeking a following, yet he authors several books, writes an internet blog and gives public speeches putting forth that he has had his C&EMS, has seen the Savior, is living a higher law then cloaks it with the claim that he is merely trying to assist others in obtaining the same. Just because he claims he is not seeking a following, wraps his message up in words of humility and raises his right arm to the square on Sundays stating that he sustains the current leadership of the Church does not make him in the right. He certainly appears to have a rather loyal following on this forum. Mr. Snuffer is very suttle in his criticizm of the current Church leadership - finding fault but masking it with flowery words, feigned humility, denials of being critical and professions of loyalty. Actions speak louder than words my friends, but even his words show forth his criticism.

In the last book I wrote, I divided the church's development into four phases. That is a convenient way to see how and why the church has changed. I am completely converted to my faith, but the version I believe in is the first phase, the original faith which Joseph Smith was developing methodically line-upon-line from the beginning in 1820 through his death in June 1844. It is the foundation of my relationship with God. I rejoice in that faith, and have found God through practicing it. I recognize there are many fellow latter-day saints who hardly understand that version of the church, and dis-prefer it to what is the fourth phase. While I explain my beliefs, and I willingly accept fellowship with anyone who shares faith in the restoration, I do not expect the church or anyone else to adopt a first phase view of Mormonism. It is largely gone. In that respect I am also antiquated. But as an antique Mormon I try to be low maintenance and not require anyone to accommodate me. Instead I'll accommodate them." - Denver Snuffer

[AshleyB]

The problem is it's not "Snuffer's teachings" that is the divide. It's Christ's. None of us pay any attention to what snuffer says because he's so great or brilliant or even articulate. It's because of the Spirit that accompanies his words. At least for me that is exactly why his books stood out. And I'm sure its the same for others. I listen to anyone who teaches by the Spirit. I am not biased based on callings or acclaim. Because if they are teaching by the Spirit it is not their philosophies I am listening to but the Doctrines of Christ. And Denver doesn't teach anything contrary to what Christ, the scriptures, and early prophets taught. He rather stands on those early teachings. At times on his blog mostly he does offer some of his opinions on things but I don't place anymore importance on his opinions than I do anyone elses.The people who don't like him often place more importance on his opinions for some reason than those who do. His opinions cause them to throw the baby out with the bath water over some disagreement. It's a shame. Same goes for the brethren in the church. When they teach by the Spirit I am feasting upon the word's of Christ and in those cases it is NOT leaning on the arm of flesh. How many of you who bash denver and try to make such a big deal about stuff with him read Nibley, or Skousen, or a score of other authors writings who DONT donate the proceeds to charity? Does that mean you are leaning on the arm of flesh anytime you read something someone else writes and test it by the Spirit of truth? If so you might as well just throw the scriptures out because they were all men who wrote it. I also have enjoyed writings by many other authors and their words have testified of Christ and uplifted me. The Lord says whether it is through him or the through the mouth of his servants it is the same. Therefore the Holy Ghost is the Key. If you don't receive a confirmation through the Holy Ghost don't read it. But many here haven't even bothered reading Denver's books or tested it out and they judge his entire message and all of his books on the last one which is very different then the rest and aimed at and made for a different audience.

[Steve Clark]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his across, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

I will follow the Lord no matter what the cost, including but not limited to: family relationships, church standing, financial situation, social impacts. If I must crawl through the bowels of Hell to get to Heaven, so be it.

[sonofliberty]

Ok, I couldn't resist.... I don't defend Denver because I think it's so important that people think he is a great guy. I could care less about that. I defend Him because I think it's such a shame many would reject such a beautiful and important message that he offers in his other 6 books testifying of Christ and the Prophets over a few things they disagree with him on his views about history or where the church is headed or on some other non related things.

You probably aren't seeing people running to President Monsons Defense so much because there has not even been ONE thread devoted to bashing him and his character like there has been of Denver. NOT ONE THREAD have I EVER seen with Monsons name tearing him down and tearing him apart. However, there are MANY doing just that to Denver and mostly its been by people who haven't even bothered to read his books to begin with. I have seen a few concerned people "question" leadership choices in VERY general manner and even condemn a few of those choices but I have NEVER seen anyone attack the brethren's character or call them liars. If I did, I would certainly have something to say about that. There is actually only a small handful of people on this forum who I have ever noticed that make a bit of a habit questioning the brethren's choices. (Not that I even care about the questions. They are just questions for the most part. Not defamation of Character of individual brethren. ) But NONE of those handful of people have I EVER seen over in the Approaching the Heavenly Gift section of the forum participating.

Does anyone know how much money President Monson or any of the twelve make on their many book sales? Or if they donate all proceeds to a charitable cause? Just wondering.....

Is Denver on an equal level with President Monson?

Do we spend more time reading and studying works of others rather than the 15 men who are the Lord's anointed and who have been given the keys of the kingdom? Our future judges at the gate?

Are we obedient to the law we currently have or are we shooting beyond the mark? Desirous for things that will ultimately destroy us?

It is interesting that so many who have left the church feel they have greater light and knowledge than what they previously had. That they are on a higher plain and have a closer relationship (getting direction directly rather than via the Lord's appointed mouthpieces) with God.

I have no clue on Denver's personal standing nor do I intend to do anything to change that. I've read half of one of his books (2nd Comforter) and haven't proceeded further. There were some things I found insightful but I didn't agree with the overall direction. Maybe its meat and I'm in need of milk. It was enough for me. To each their own on it.

That said we have been warned and it behooves us to do our best to wise and careful. I pointed out in the Wolves and Sheep thread that everything is not as it seems here. People rant off about certain things or history and when you trace their sources back you get a whole different perspective than when you initially started.

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for sharing Legion! I find your logic and posts on this matter very sound. I am relatively new to this forum and thought it would be a great place to find like-minded people of my faith.

[sonofliberty]

Snuffer should have quit his blog the first time he said he was going to.

You should not put your trust in  man when it comes to spiritual matters. Snuffer, Amonhi, Pontius or anyone else. If you do you are a fool. Go ahead and try to justify yourselves all you want, but that's what you're doing. If you lack knowledge try asking God instead.

I see one of two things going on here.

1 - Denver Snuffer is deceived and doesn't realize it.

Or...

2- Denver Snuffer is deceived and knows it. Making him a liar and a fraud.

Either way he could use a "frank and open rebuke", as Brother Joseph would say, to see where his heart really is.

+1

[reese]

Wonder no longer Reese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzE6QFj6maQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Mark for finding that. I had a newborn during that conference, so I don't remember if I watched it or not. Now you have piqued my interest. Can you find something that teaches this? You see I have never heard these things taught so clearly and so urgently until I began reading Snuffer's stuff.

The "fruit" to be "laid up against the season" is highly specific. It is God's own family. Those who are bound to Him directly, in an unbroken covenant of adoption, where He recognizes them as His "sons and daughters" and has told them so in an unbreakable bond. (Mosiah 27: 25.) Those who receive Him receive this oath from Him. And through it, He covenants with them, in a bond which He cannot break, that they are His sons and His daughters and heirs to all the Father has. (D&C 84: 35-40.) It will not be an imitation, which does not create "fruit" but it will be Him and His covenant. For "all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord." (D&C 88: 35.) He will come to and "comfort" those with this covenant. (John 14: 18.) This is not by proxy, or through an appearance "in the heart" through some feeling, but is an actual appearance leading to an actual bond that cannot be broken, and therefore comforts the sojourner in this lone and dreary world. (John 14: 23; D&C 130: 3.)...

...Those who will be gathered will not need to tell one another to "know ye the Lord" for those who remain will all know Him, from the least to the greatest. (Jer. 31: 34; D&C 84: 98.) These are those who have been redeemed from the fall, for they have been back into His presence. (Ether 3: 13.) These are those who receive a testimony from Christ that they are saved. (D&C 76: 51.) Those who claim to follow prophets, but have not received the testimony of Christ that they have part with Him (calling & election made sure ?)will be burned at His coming and appointed their place in sorrow and suffering. (D&C 76: 98-106.)

There will be no lukewarm saints allowed to stand in that day.

[mattctr]

ChelC and Legion, while my two posts on this thread so far might be seen as defending Denver, etc., I would also like to say that I appreciate the entire discussion. I've enjoyed your posts on this thread, as well. I like hearing all sides of the discussion.

[RabbanahLlama]

RabbanahLlama, who are you addressing?

Everyone. Me, you, all those who follow Snuffer, all those who don't.

And if you have seen Jesus Christ in the flesh you're calling and election is made sure. You're faith should be unshakeable because you now have a perfect knowledge. The veil is no longer holding you back. I think seeking to have your calling and election made sure is a righteous desire. 

But let's be realistic for a second here. Not even all the Prophets who have been called by the Lord have seen Him in this life, so what makes you think Snuffer has? I'm not taking his word on it.

[Mark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzE6QFj6maQ

Great video, Mark! Thank you! I love Elder Holland's talks.

I do as well coach. I'm going to break my previous vow to "shut the he!! up" ) and say one more thing here. I'm glad you mentioned Elder Holland here Bro. Whenever I listen to him speak or read his addresses he has given I have always felt a confirming spirit that this man truly is an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and acts as a special witness of Him. I am uplifted and edified and feel the desire to become a better person more committed to building the Kingdom in these latter days. In other words, his fruits are good to my soul and bring me closer to my Heavenly Father and my Savior.

Now I will admit that I do not know Bro. Snuffer personally but I have read some of his blogs and listened to him speak on Mormon Podcast with John Dehlin so I have a feel for what he has said. Most of his stuff is fine and good but I sometimes feel a different conflicting spirit about some of the things he has said and written. They leave me with an uncomfortable feeling and one which I have discerned to be potentially dangerous ground to tread. I am not judging him personally just trying to determine if his words and thoughts will lead me in the proper path. They do not always give me a positive spiritual vibe and a desire to sustain my Priesthood leaders and build up the kingdom in a way the Lord has asked. I sometimes get whiff of the spirit of criticism and a kind of condescending air toward the church and the Brethren.

That is not to say that he has not said some very good things. He has. I just get some mixed messages from him at times so I feel better just sticking with scripture and those like Elder Holland who do not give me mixed messages that could lead me in a wrong direction in my life. I hope this explains my concerns sufficiently.

[firend]

Has anyone asked the Lord if Denver has seen Christ? I think that witness for ourself would be important for those who read his works. I have not yet read his books, but I am familiar with his blog.

[Steve Clark]

Has anyone asked the Lord if Denver has seen Christ? I think that witness for ourself would be important for those who read his works. I have not yet read his books, but I am familiar with his blog.

Yes.

[Original_Intent]

Has anyone asked the Lord if Denver has seen Christ? I think that witness for ourself would be important for those who read his works. I have not yet read his books, but I am familiar with his blog.

I don;t need, or even want, a testimony of Denver, or John Pontius, or "Amonhi". I'm not trying to be contentious, or slam your suggestion. I say it because I was pondering the same thing about Amonhi's claims, and the immediate whispering I got was "Is that something you need to know?" And the answer in the negative was included with the question. Of course, what applied to me may not apply to all. There is only one straight and narrow path, but there are many paths TO getting on that path (as many as there are individuals most likely.)

[firend]

Has anyone asked the Lord if Denver has seen Christ? I think that witness for ourself would be important for those who read his works. I have not yet read his books, but I am familiar with his blog.

I don;t need, or even want, a testimony of Denver, or John Pontius, or "Amonhi". I'm not trying to be contentious, or slam your suggestion. I say it because I was pondering the same thing about Amonhi's claims, and the immediate whispering I got was "Is that something you need to know?" And the answer in the negative was included with the question. Of course, what applied to me may not apply to all. There is only one straight and narrow path, but there are many paths TO getting on that path (as many as there are individuals most likely.)

I have not heard of John Pontius or Amonhi?

[God's Army]

You should not put your trust in man when it comes to spiritual matters. Snuffer, Amonhi, Pontius or anyone else. If you do you are a fool. Go ahead and try to justify yourselves all you want, but that's what you're doing. If you lack knowledge try asking God instead.

Is every person that has put their trust in the words of true prophets of the Lord a fool as well, then? If the spirit tells me that I can trust his anointed servants teachings, am I also a fool? The thing about true prophets is that they warn us to not put our trust in flesh, but to seek first the spirit. I don't know much about Snuffer or Pontius but I can can honestly say that Amonhi never wanted us to put our trust in him. He told us on multiple occasions to go to God with our questions, to seek first the spirit in sincere prayer. He told us multiple times that he does not want to lead us to himself, but that he is just another finger pointing TO THE LORD! He didn't suggest that we do anything other than what the prophets and scriptures are already telling us to do! Why so many people are having so much trouble realizing this is baffling to me :-\