Is Denver Snuffer why people are questioning the church?

[ChelC]

I don't know much about Snuffer (almost nothing). I knkw he has writted books and has a blog. I don't know what any of his positions are. I have ignored threads about him, though I see his name brought up a lot. Since the forum has shifted toward more open contention with church leaders, I am wondering if Snuffer is the link?

It just seems like the shift began when I started seeing his name more. I don't want to read his books. Can someone give me the cliffs notes of what he stands for and teaches?

[sonofliberty]

I have noticed the same. I am not too familiar with Denver Snuffer myself, but I have went and looked at some previous threads regarding him. This is what I have found:

The underlined words within the quote are mine.

How does this jive Brian?

"The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. (Who claims to hold those keys today? Our beloved prophet Thomas S. Monson, first presidency and the Twelve)They teach (The leaders I just pointed out) that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They (the same folks) are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess (let's see, he just compared them to the apostate church and it's leader), as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their (once again, the prophets ect.) account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it (whoa, did he just day that). In the meantime, they continually curtail (did he just say CURTAIL) the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion (is he saying they are apostatizing) . Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek." -Snuffer

Do you want to talk about "making a false statement damaging to a persons reputation"?

Why can't people post their thoughts/opinions (negative or positive) about Snuffer when he gets the thumbs up for his libelous (there is no slander on this site as nobody is speaking, only writing) comments about the Lords prophets and apostles? Unless your bias is showing, I'm not understanding why you're sensitive to negative critiques of Snuffer.

NGL's post that you deleted is absolutely nothing compared to what Snuffer wrote about the top leaders of Christ's church.

Those who criticize are on the road to apostasy. I bear you my testimony that the experiences I have had have taught me that those who criticize the leaders of this church are showing signs of a spiritual sickness which, unless curbed, will bring about eventual spiritual death. I bear testimony as well that those who in public seek, by their criticism, to belittle our leaders or bring them into disrepute bring more hurt upon themselves than upon those whom they seek thus to malign. I have watched over the years, and I have read of the history of many of those who fell away from this church, and I bear testimony that no apostate who ever left this church ever prospered as an influence in his community thereafter. (47-05, p. 224) (I will second this testimony)
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, edited by Clyde J. Williams [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996], 395.)

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man." (D.H.C. 3:385.)
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 4: 39.)

You are commanded by the Lord in all things, "to ask of God . . . doing all things with prayer and thanks-giving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils." (Doc. and Cov. 46:7.) The Prophet Joseph Smith gave us this as a rule by which to detect these who would deceive. This is what he said: "That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is on the high road to apostasy, and if he does not repent he will apostatize, as God lives." (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 385.) Look about you. Do you know of any one soul who has apostatized from the truth that has prospered spiritually in your day? Contrary to that, they are "left unto themselves to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints and to fight against God," The works of the apostates are but a solemn witness to the truthfulness of these words of the Lord: "No weapon that is formed against (the leaders) of the Church shall prosper and if any man lift his voice against (them), he shall be confounded in (the Lord's) due time." (Doc. and Cov. 71:9-10.)
(Harold B. Lee, Decisions for Successful Living [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1973], 110 - 111.)

For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.—D&C 3:4.
(John A. Widtsoe, Priesthood and Church Government [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], 63.)

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy. Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us-His Church. ("Jesus Christ-Gifts and Expectations," New Era 5 [May 1975]: 18.)

The Lord has stated that His Church will never again be taken from the earth because of apostasy (see D&C 138:44). But He has also stated that some members of His Church will fall away. There has been individual apostasy in the past; it is going on now, and there will be an ever-increasing amount in the future. While we cannot save all the flock from being deceived, we should, without compromising our doctrine, strive to save as many as we can. For, as President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., said, "We are in the midst of the greatest exhibition of propaganda that the world has ever seen." Do not believe all you hear. (An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 286.)
(Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988], 90.)

To see the entire thread, click on this link: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 0&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jcricket6048]

I don't know much about Snuffer (almost nothing). I knkw he has writted books and has a blog. I don't know what any of his positions are. I have ignored threads about him, though I see his name brought up a lot. Since the forum has shifted toward more open contention with church leaders, I am wondering if Snuffer is the link?

It just seems like the shift began when I started seeing his name more. I don't want to read his books. Can someone give me the cliffs notes of what he stands for and teaches?

I have read some of his quotes and he has claimed to have spiritual manifestation. To me if you had spiritual manifestation you should be keeping it to yourself and tell anyone because it pertains to you and not anyone. If it was for the church then the Prophet is the one who will tell us what the Lord says not Denver Snuffer. I am wondering if he is a member of the church or an apostate trying to get even with the church. I do not feel the spirit when I read some of his quotes and I will not read anymore of it either.

[tmac]

Can someone give me the cliffs notes of what he stands for and teaches?

The cliff notes version is that Denver Snuffer teaches that everyone can (and should strive to) have a personal relationship with the Savior, and that if we really understood the whole picture, we would be actively seeking to have such a relationship -- a true, living, breathing, actual, personal relationship with God -- in this life.

Without going into much detail, DS states that after a long process and much trial and tribulation, he has experienced such manifestations, and has been admonished to share something of his experience(s) with others, and to encourage them to pursue and develop their own personal relationships with God. That's it in a nutshell.

All the contention you refer to is created by those who apparently disagree with this simple, but profound message -- the vast majority of whom have never bothered to read or understand exactly what it is he writes or has to say.

In light of what has happened to any number of BYU professors and Mormon intellectuals, if Snuffer was getting too cross-ways with the Church and its leaders and what they believe and teach, we can rest assured that he would be chastised and/or excommunicated.

Like many such things, there is more than enough misinformation to go around.

[creator]

I don't know much about Snuffer (almost nothing). I knkw he has writted books and has a blog. I don't know what any of his positions are. I have ignored threads about him, though I see his name brought up a lot. Since the forum has shifted toward more open contention with church leaders, I am wondering if Snuffer is the link?

It just seems like the shift began when I started seeing his name more. I don't want to read his books. Can someone give me the cliffs notes of what he stands for and teaches?

Is Denver Snuffer why people are questioning the church? My response is "no". I've never felt to question the church as a result of reading anything from Denver Snuffer. I have read "The Second Comforter" and parts of his other books, and many blog posts. What do I like about what Snuffer writes? I like that it has given me an increased desire to focus on the things that are important, the eternal perspective, the Book of Mormon, following Christ, etc.

[reese]

I have read all of his books and all of his blog. I first started reading his book The 2nd Comforter, exactly 2 years ago. Before that I was a normal, active, good LDS. I came to this forum often seeking out more and more info about our awful situation. I constantly prayed that I would not be deceived and that I could see me/us(LDS's) as the Lord sees us, in our true light.
I was led to Snuffer's book in a series of events that are to much for me to consider just a coincidence. I began reading it and my whole world changed. I learned what was possible for us. I learned what we have been offered. I have gone through more spiritual growth in the last two years that in the previous 30. I attribute much of my eyes being opened to our situation to Denver. I feel so very indebted to him for opening up a path that I have been walking steadily for the last two years. I have received some great blessings & promises form the Lord during these last two years.
Denver just wrote this the other day on his blog:

It is important for you to know that I do not think Christ is a limp-wristed, lisping chap who dotes on us and has nothing but bouquets of flowers to dispense to us. I think He's about to return in judgment, dressed in red to burn the wicked. He has said that is who He is and I believe Him. I would like to have as many people take that seriously and consider repenting. We are mistaken in our belief that we are chosen. We are mistaken when we think we are too good to be in need of continual repentance. We are nothing before God. We are about to see His judgments. I know these ideas make me irritating.

Christ is going to return. We are not worthy to be in his presense. We have great need of repentance. Yes, this is an irritating message. It invokes anger in many. But it always has........and the Lord did say he would cause a division among the people, so we should not be surprised by it.

[Silas]

I understand tmac and I think that is really good. I believe everyone should be striving to have their calling and election made sure. If that were all he was doing then I would say that it is great. What bothers me is quotes like the one sonofliberty posted. I can't read that and not think that Denver Snuffer seems to think that he knows better what the church should be doing than the people that the Lord has called to lead the church do. I don't believe that church leaders can't make mistakes, its just that when they do they are accountable to the Lord and not me or any other member of the church. I trust the Lord to correct church leaders we don't need Denver Snuffer for that.

Maybe I don't understand the context. I don't know Denver Snuffer and can't judge him but I am very turned off by people who think they know better than church leaders do. That is what he appears to do at times. Maybe I am mistaken but that is how I see it.

[AshleyB]

To me the answer to the question is obvious. And I don't mean that to sound condescending so I hope it doesn't. But for me the answer really is an obvious "NO." I can understand why it may seem that way however. People have been and willbe continuing questioning "the church" long before and after snuffer came on the scene. I still fail to see where questions = damnation though? Just me. That's no different then what the other churches teach. And we should be different. But alas, we are a church filled with the doctrines of men and even we haven't escaped that. None of Denver's books until the very last one has had anything to do with "the church" as the organization and all of his messages have pertained to the scriptures and the gospel. His witness of Christ is not elaborated on and is only briefly mentioned in two of his books as far as his testimony goes and is mentioned only for the sole purpose of bearing a powerful testimony that he knows seeing the Lord is possible because even someone like him has seen him.And that if he can see the Lord and know him for himself so can everyone else. For honest seekers his message only leads to Christ. In his last book he has addressed some of the more controversial issues in hopes of helping those disaffected members who have read things and found things that have bothered them to come to terms with what they have found. Many have returned to church activity as a result of reading that last book. In this information age that we live in I believe what is happening is just a consequence of that. His goal has been to help other's regain and strengthen their Faith in such an information age. Not the opposite. I think he is just more paid attention to because he IS a good standing temple recommend holder, church calling holding, active member who doesn't see the church as most mainstream members do and being someone who has seen Christ this ruffles a lot of feathers. I think it scares people. And I think it's easier for people to dismiss the claims of some member who is "apostate" or who has been excommunicated but since he hasn't been what he says is more bothersome.

He also makes it clear he doesn't want everyone reading his books and thats why he doesn't promote them or sell them anywhere but on amazon. He specifically makes it clear that if you are a member who has no questions or things you cant reconcile and you are fine where you sit then his last book is not for you. It is for those who have lost Faith and are looking for a non biased account of church Histories. And I believe it is just that. He presents the facts and leaves the reader to make up his mind for himself. He uses some sources that are not main stream like diary entries from deceased presidents and things like that and for that reason I really appreciated his latest book because I believe those personal accounts offer a more well rounded view of things.

I think if you really want to know what Snuffer is REALLY about there is no getting around reading his books. But that's why he has not made it EASY to get them. So only those who really want to know will search them out and find them and buy them. And upon reading them you will find there really is little about himself in his books at all. If you want an accurate and honest look at what he believes in foot notes aren't the best option. I have whole heartedly accepted his message about coming unto Christ. (Even though I still get discouraged at times). I have prayed about his message and his claims of seeing Christ and have received more than one confirmation that he is a friend of Christ. However, when he does happen to share opinions on his blog it doesn't make me hold any more weight to those then it would with anyone else. He is still a man who is learning. Though I have to admit that the majority of the time I tend to agree with him. We just see things similarly and I was coming to many of his same conclusions well before I had even heard of him.

I find it interesting that because a man bears testimony of Christ and in such a plain way many find that grounds for apostasy. It blows me away. I am finding that most members don't believe in the foundation of what Joseph taught. I wonder what the point of sacrament meeting is anymore? However, being persecuted for his testimony of Christ only helps solidify the truth of his message imo. Joseph was known for good and evil as well. And usually the ones who accused him of evil were those who listened to rumors and didn't bother reading the book of mormon and pray to gain a knowledge for themselves. Same with all messengers who bear testimony of Christ. The pattern remains the same even now. And Denver may not be the Prophet and President of the church and (He makes it clear he has no desire for any such title or position or any right to it) he is still a messenger for Christ. Anyone can be a messenger of Christ and bear testimony of Him. It doesn't mean they are receiving revelation for the whole church or are trying to. They are just meant to share their personal testimony and his testimony has nothing to do with receiving revelations for the church. It is personal but is used as a type and shadow of what we can have too. He has just reached a place most of us haven't yet. But he wants us to know it is possible.

[charlotte]

My personal belief is that Denver Snuffer is not why people are questioning the church. I started questioning the church before I ever heard of Denver Snuffer, and I am grateful I came across DS's blog when I did. He helped me see why it's valuable to stay in the church despite its problems, and he helped me realize that I have some great personal responsibilities separate from whatever happens with the church.

[tmac]

I guess the other point I want to make is that regardless of whatever Denver Snuffer says or doesn't say, the reality is that the Church and its members are under condemnation by the Lord, and have been for at least 150+ years. We have failed to live His laws. We have failed to understand and fully appreciate the BOM and its real message(s). We struggle to accept and live the milk of the gospel of Jesus Christ, let alone the meat of the gospel. As a people and a Church we no longer even attempt to be "in the world but not of the world." We have essentially completely given up on being a peculiar people. None of that has anything to do with Denver Snuffer, but if anyone, including Snuffer alludes to any of these realities, they are dubbed as apostates.

How do you think the Lord Himself would rate how we, as a Church -- His Church -- and as a people, are doing? Do you think He would be more inclined to agree or disagree with the things Denver Snuffer says. I know there are plenty of Church members who apparently disagree with what he says, but I haven't heard anything about any disagreements Church leadership might have with what he says -- I think they know -- and they're probably actually glad to have someone else be the heavy on some of this stuff -- heaven knows much of what they say is completely ignored.

[sonofliberty]

Again, I am no expert on Denver Snuffer. I have just recently become acquainted with his books and blog through this forum. Also, I have not read his books (he says that one cannot understand what he is saying without reading his books in entirety). However, from what has been said on this website, no one has denied that he said those things. Only that unless you read the entire book first, you cannot speak intelligently on it. I find that somewhat odd since God doesn't even put that requirement on people when it comes to reading the Book of Mormon. Last time I checked, even the Book of Mormon itself does not hold that kind of requirement. People can still obtain a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon after only reading a portion of it.

I, like you Silas, believe that inspite of the fact that Church leaders, to include the President of the Church, are human and make mistakes, it is not our position to question them on it. I truly believe that our leaders are ordained of God and that Thomas S. Monson holds all of the keys. While he may not be perfect, he will not lead us astray. Likewise, I do not believe the Lord will frown upon us for rejecting statements that call into question his authority or suggest that his guidance is curtailing the scope of the restored faith. While Denver Snuffer may (and I emphasize may) be correct that the scope of restored faith has been curtailed (i.e., seldom do you have a Sacrament talk, Sunday School lesson or Priesthood/Relief Society lesson on the Second Comforter or C&EMS) I do not believe it is because the President of the Church and Quorum of the Twelve lack keys or direction from God. I would instead suggest that it is because the general membership of the Church is still under condemnation for taking the BoM lightly and not ready for meat when they still are in need of milk. Just MHO.

[ChelC]

So, if I have this right, Denver Snuffer claims to have had an experience (a vision, a dream, or what is the claim?) and he wants to preach repentance unto the people, but the criticism surrounds whether he is encouraging people to disregard church leaders and rely more heavily on the Spirit? Is that about right?

For those of you for whom reading Snuffer was a turning point, what was it that the words of our prophet lacked to encourage the same? What was different about his message?

[ChelC]

is the bible why people are questioning Christianity?
is Joseph Smith why people question Mormonism?
is Oren Hatch why people question the republican party?
is Leigon why people question the LDSFF?
is Hellen Keller why people question having children?
is Hitler why people question Volkswagen?

Did you intend for this to sound as hostile as I'm reading it?

[Steve Clark]

My personal belief is that Denver Snuffer is not why people are questioning the church. I started questioning the church before I ever heard of Denver Snuffer, and I am grateful I came across DS's blog when I did. He helped me see why it's valuable to stay in the church despite its problems, and he helped me realize that I have some great personal responsibilities separate from whatever happens with the church.

This describes me, also. I have found more answers to questions I had for a long time but didn't dare ask.

[ChelC]

Again, I am no expert on Denver Snuffer. I have just recently become acquainted with his books and blog through this forum. Also, I have not read his books (he says that one cannot understand what he is saying without reading his books in entirety). However, from what has been said on this website, no one has denied that he said those things. Only that unless you read the entire book first, you cannot speak intelligently on it. I find that somewhat odd since God doesn't even put that requirement on people when it comes to reading the Book of Mormon. Last time I checked, even the Book of Mormon itself does not hold that kind of requirement. People can still obtain a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon after only reading a portion of it.

I, like you Silas, believe that inspite of the fact that Church leaders, to include the President of the Church, are human and make mistakes, it is not our position to question them on it. I truly believe that our leaders are ordained of God and that Thomas S. Monson holds all of the keys. While he may not be perfect, he will not lead us astray. Likewise, I do not believe the Lord will frown upon us for rejecting statements that call into question his authority or suggest that his guidance is curtailing the scope of the restored faith. While Denver Snuffer may (and I emphasize may) be correct that the scope of restored faith has been curtailed (i.e., seldom do you have a Sacrament talk, Sunday School lesson or Priesthood/Relief Society lesson on the Second Comforter or C&EMS) I do not believe it is because the President of the Church and Quorum of the Twelve lack keys or direction from God. I would instead suggest that it is because the general membership of the Church is still under condemnation for taking the BoM lightly and not ready for meat when they still are in need of milk. Just MHO.

If he does claim that reading the whole book is necessary to understand his basic premise, that raises a red flag for me. Sophistry?

[e-eye]

For me the answer is "no" For my brother-in-law the answer is "probably so"
I have read The Second Comforter and while reading it thought it was good but since I read it I realized it really did nothing to change me like the Book of Mormon does each time I read it. It's probably an unfair test but a test none the less and I decided instead of reading his books I would read The Book of Mormon instead and have been blessed tremendously. I have been disappointed in his recent blogs on the criticism of the church. I enjoyed some of his blogs in the past but his recent criticism of the church has been disappointing.

[AshleyB]

Denver bears his testimony in his first book that coming unto Christ is the only way and that coming unto Christ as the scriptures teach, To see His face and KNOW him like one man knows another is not only possible but is what every person should be seeking after. He knows this is possible because he has met with Christ face to face and talked with him as one man converses with another. He has also had the ministering of Angels as well. His book shed so much light for me on the temple endowment that I had failed to see before because I had precepts of men blinders on. He helped me to see the temple endowment as literal instructions on how to receive my own messengers and to enter in by the gate. For the first time I really began to see it as a means and not an end. And that's not what I always heard everyone else saying. I felt the spirit powerfully confirm the truth of his message and in a way that was very distinct. In short I heard the Saviors voice in what he "taught." I knew it wasn't Denver's "teachings." But truly the Lord's.

I for one had never heard the doctrine of the Second Comforter taught so plainly by ANYONE. I had just been studying the doctrine from "stumbling" across it in the scriptures. The doctrine struck me and I saw something and understood it in a way I hadn't before and I started praying for answers to questions regarding it and shortly after I was led to Denver's book. And I had NEVER heard any current prophet or GA testify of Christ the way Denver did. It helped reaffirm the hope that its still possible in our day and not just meant for a select elite group of people. But for everyone. It wasn't a testimony carefully worded and shrouded in mystery. He plainly and boldly testified to have seen Christ and to know Him. That's just part of it. But hopefully that helps.

[Steve Clark]

Again, I am no expert on Denver Snuffer. I have just recently become acquainted with his books and blog through this forum. Also, I have not read his books (he says that one cannot understand what he is saying without reading his books in entirety). However, from what has been said on this website, no one has denied that he said those things. Only that unless you read the entire book first, you cannot speak intelligently on it. I find that somewhat odd since God doesn't even put that requirement on people when it comes to reading the Book of Mormon. Last time I checked, even the Book of Mormon itself does not hold that kind of requirement. People can still obtain a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon after only reading a portion of it.

I, like you Silas, believe that inspite of the fact that Church leaders, to include the President of the Church, are human and make mistakes, it is not our position to question them on it. I truly believe that our leaders are ordained of God and that Thomas S. Monson holds all of the keys. While he may not be perfect, he will not lead us astray. Likewise, I do not believe the Lord will frown upon us for rejecting statements that call into question his authority or suggest that his guidance is curtailing the scope of the restored faith. While Denver Snuffer may (and I emphasize may) be correct that the scope of restored faith has been curtailed (i.e., seldom do you have a Sacrament talk, Sunday School lesson or Priesthood/Relief Society lesson on the Second Comforter or C&EMS) I do not believe it is because the President of the Church and Quorum of the Twelve lack keys or direction from God. I would instead suggest that it is because the general membership of the Church is still under condemnation for taking the BoM lightly and not ready for meat when they still are in need of milk. Just MHO.

I can appreciate your position. I don't think one needs to have a complete knowledge of everything he has written in order to grasp the concepts he shares, but I also see a lot of people taking little bits of comments he makes and, without an understanding of what his message is, inflates them to something they aren't

For example, some look at the things Denver has written about the church and accuse him of tearing down people's faith. I read the same things but understand his message to be one of encouraging faith directly in Christ and showing where we traditionally, and to our error, anchor our faith on the institution instead of the Savior. I have been blessed with greater faith and a greater relationship with the Lord.

[ChelC]

Denver bears his testimony in his first book that coming unto Christ is the only way and that coming unto Christ as the scriptures teach, To see His face and KNOW him like one man knows another is not only possible but is what every person should be seeking after. He knows this is possible because he has met with Christ face to face and talked with him as one man converses with another. He has also had the ministering of Angels as well. His book shed so much light for me on the temple endowment that I had failed to see before because I had precepts of men blinders on. He helped me to see the temple endowment as literal instructions on how to receive my own messengers and to enter in by the gate. For the first time I really began to see it as a means and not an end. And that's not what I always heard everyone else saying. I felt the spirit powerfully confirm the truth of his message and in a way that was very distinct. In short I heard the Saviors voice in what he "taught." I knew it wasn't Denver's "teachings." But truly the Lord's.

I for one had never heard the doctrine of the Second Comforter taught so plainly by ANYONE. I had just been studying the doctrine from "stumbling" across it in the scriptures. The doctrine struck me and I saw something and understood it in a way I hadn't before and I started praying for answers to questions regarding it and shortly after I was led to Denver's book. And I had NEVER heard any current prophet or GA testify of Christ the way Denver did. It helped reaffirm the hope that its still possible in our day and not just meant for a select elite group of people. But for everyone. It wasn't a testimony carefully worded and shrouded in mystery. He plainly and boldly testified to have seen Christ and to know Him. That's just part of it. But hopefully that helps.

I have read Bruce R. McConkie testify boldly about these things not being reserved for the ancients, or for only apostles. I will find the quote in a minute. I didn't think that was a subject avoided in the church. I have always believed the very heart and soul of the gospel is to come to know Christ by searching his teachings and becoming like him. What is unique about Snuffer in that regard?

[Henmasher]

Again, I am no expert on Denver Snuffer. I have just recently become acquainted with his books and blog through this forum. Also, I have not read his books (he says that one cannot understand what he is saying without reading his books in entirety). However, from what has been said on this website, no one has denied that he said those things. Only that unless you read the entire book first, you cannot speak intelligently on it. I find that somewhat odd since God doesn't even put that requirement on people when it comes to reading the Book of Mormon. Last time I checked, even the Book of Mormon itself does not hold that kind of requirement. People can still obtain a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon after only reading a portion of it.

I, like you Silas, believe that inspite of the fact that Church leaders, to include the President of the Church, are human and make mistakes, it is not our position to question them on it. I truly believe that our leaders are ordained of God and that Thomas S. Monson holds all of the keys. While he may not be perfect, he will not lead us astray. Likewise, I do not believe the Lord will frown upon us for rejecting statements that call into question his authority or suggest that his guidance is curtailing the scope of the restored faith. While Denver Snuffer may (and I emphasize may) be correct that the scope of restored faith has been curtailed (i.e., seldom do you have a Sacrament talk, Sunday School lesson or Priesthood/Relief Society lesson on the Second Comforter or C&EMS) I do not believe it is because the President of the Church and Quorum of the Twelve lack keys or direction from God. I would instead suggest that it is because the general membership of the Church is still under condemnation for taking the BoM lightly and not ready for meat when they still are in need of milk. Just MHO.

If he does claim that reading the whole book is necessary to understand his basic premise, that raises a red flag for me. Sophistry?

No different than those that grab snipits of the BOM or Bible. He wants you to hear him out and then judge. Context is deadly and that is why the prophets and Christ talk as they did, do, and will. He wants you to take it all in and then decide. I have read his stuff, some sounds questionable, and then a couple chapters later it makes sense. Thats why he wants you to read it through. ChelC you should read the 2nd conformter, it is a good book that holds gospel truth. Should it replace the prophets and the Scriptures, no, but it a very good read and very motivating!

[ChelC]

This talk came to mind because I quoted from it when I was asked to speak a couple months ago about personal revelation:

Bruce R. McConkie, “How to Get Personal Revelation,” New Era, Jun 1980, 46

I would like to touch upon some spiritual realities and on some of the basic things that we need to do to work out our salvation and to be worthy, representative members of God’s kingdom here in this life and to qualify for eternal reward in the realms to be. I would like to deal with the matter of receiving personal revelation, particularly how to gain personal revelation—how each individual member of the Church can come to know of the divinity of the work, can have the whisperings of the Spirit in his heart and soul, and in addition, can see visions, entertain angels, behold the face of the Lord, and receive all the knowledge and wisdom that has been poured out upon faithful people in any age.

As a people, we are in the habit of saying that we believe in latter-day revelation. We announce quite boldly that the heavens have been opened, that God has spoken in our day, that angels have ministered to men, that there have been visions and revelations, and that no gift or grace possessed by the ancients has been withheld—it has all been revealed anew in our day.

But, ordinarily, when we talk in this way, we are thinking of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or Spencer W. Kimball. We are thinking of apostles and prophets—men who are called, selected, or foreordained to hold the positions that they hold and to do the ministerial service that is theirs. We are thinking of them and of the general principle of the Church itself operating by revelation.

Now there is no question at all about this: The organization that we belong to is the Lord’s kingdom—it is literally such. As the kingdom of God on earth, it is designed to prepare and qualify us to go to the kingdom of God in heaven, which is the celestial kingdom, and this Church is guided by revelation. I have sat in meetings with the Brethren on several occasions when the prophet of God on earth has said in humility and with fervent testimony that the veil is thin, that the Lord is guiding and directing the affairs of the Church, and that it is his Church and he is making his will manifest.

There is inspiration at the head, and the Church is in the line and course of its duty; it is progressing in the way that the Lord would have it progress so that, as rapidly as our strength permits, his message can go to his other children in the world and so that we, as members of the kingdom, can cleanse and perfect our lives and be worthy of the choicest blessings here and hereafter.

But what I desire to point attention to is the fact that revelation is not restricted to the prophet of God on earth. The visions of eternity are not reserved for Apostles—they are not reserved for the General Authorities. Revelation is something that should be received by every individual. God is no respecter of persons, and every soul, in the ultimate sense, is just as precious in his sight as the souls of those who are called to positions of leadership. Because he operates on principles of eternal, universal, and never-deviating law, any individual who abides the law that entitles him to get revelation can know exactly and precisely what President Kimball knows, can entertain angels just as well as Joseph Smith entertained them, and can be in tune in full measure with all of the things of the Spirit.

[Deborah000]

I know very little of Denver Snuffer's total writings, but I have read a few of his blogs after learning about him on this forum. I read enough to know that he very much questions the need to follow the prophet. He says he has never read anywhere in the scriptures where we are told to follow the prophet. He casts doubts on our Church leaders. This was a giant RED FLAG to me.

At his blog site Denver tells you not to judge his words unless you read all his books. You cant do that without spending quite a bit of money. RED FLAG.

I don't know how someone who claims to have been visited by the Saviour would tell others not to trust and follow the Lord's annointed servants. For me I will no longer buy what he is selling.

I

[Steve Clark]

I know very little of Denver Snuffer's total writings, but I have read a few of his blogs after learning about him on this forum. I read enough to know that he very much questions the need to follow the prophet. He says he has never read anywhere in the scriptures where we are told to follow the prophet. He casts doubts on our Church leaders. This was a giant RED FLAG to me.

At his blog site Denver tells you not to judge his words unless you read all his books. You cant do that without spending quite a bit of money. RED FLAG.

I don't know how someone who claims to have been visited by the Saviour would tell others not to trust and follow the Lord's annointed servants. For me I will no longer buy what he is selling.

I

This is a prime example of reading things out of context.

[Mark]

"The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek." -Snuffer

This quote from DS was the dog poo ingredient someone would substitute in an otherwise perfectly good home made brownie recipe. My experience with the humble followers of Christ that I have met in the church is that they would never degrade and insult church leaders with these types of negative insults aimed at them. The little digs made like "proud descendants of Nauvoo" and "all is well in their Zion" and "their plan seems at odds with" building Zion and "curtail the scope of the restored faith" are meant as just that: digs. Having listened to men like Sterling Allen and others throw out these same types of digs at church leadership publicly in the past has soured me from the get go anytime I hear this happening. I know nothing good comes from it.

[AshleyB]

I'll give an example. I attended a ward conference meeting where the subject was coming unto Christ a few months back. The lesson was supposed to be all about coming unto Christ. The teacher plainly said, " We'll never be able to see the savior or feel the prints of the nails in his hands and feet in our life time like those in the book of mormon did. " So how can we in our own way come unto Christ?" It wasn't that his statement didn't have some truth to it. The reality is that most people won't have that kind of experience. It's not because they can't It's because they don't believe its possible. And why would they when statements like that are made on a constant regular basis and you don't hear anything being taught to the contrary? The following answers were the norm about reading scriptures and praying and those things are true but they are a means meant to lead us to an end. To see and KNOW for ourselves. Not to say you wouldn't continue reading the scriptures and praying because you would. But it's like delivering the joke without the punch line.

Also, I have heard Bruce R. Mckonkies last testimony. You can watch it online. And it was a powerful testimony. But no where does he state he had seen and talked with Christ face to face in his lifetime and testified of him in that way. He simply said once he did see him after he died he wouldn't know any better. To me it just seemed he was speaking about his testimony that he received through the Holy Ghost. Which is just as real nonetheless they are not the same and both experiences are meant to be ours. But either way it was not as plain as Denver's. Denver doesn't make you guess. He tells you straight out. You said the heart and soul of the gospel is by searching his teachings and becoming like him. I can agree with that but where are we told that we are expected to be taught by Christ Himself? Those who search can find all sorts of quotes from the early brethren that deal with this but it's seldom spoken of today if ever. It's just not. Its never been taught in any of the lessons I have attended at church. In fact the few times I have tried to bring up some of these things people just look at you funny. Why is it we are a church founded upon the principle of asking and receiving messengers from heaven but if you bring it up and talk about it being one of the steps on the path to eternal life as taught in the temple other people treat you funny. Or if someone makes a claim to have received such heavenly visitations everyone automatically is suspicious of them? I asked my husband about this strange occurance. I expected latter day saints to be different in that regard seeing as how its what our church is founded on. He said, it's because we have been raised in the culture of the church and that's how we have been taught to approach such things. My husband doesn't even read snuffer or agree with me on a lot of things but that was something even he himself has observed in the course of his lifetime membership. That people say they believe in these things but present them with the opportunity to act on it and a lot of them will be the first one to hit you with a stone. Also, when reading Denver's books you begin to see that these things...gifts of the spirit and heavenly visitations are not just a blessing some can happen upon but they are things that are essential to receiving salvation and exaltation. Essential steps in the process as laid out in the temple endowment. That is NOT what I have heard being taught. I have always heard just the opposite myself. President Grant himself wrote in his journal he dared not seek after a personal witness of Christ because he feared greater knowledge would damn him. Many have this same mindset. I myself even think this way at times. But Denver reminds me that its why I came. Not to shrink away from those things but to seek after them and receive them with gladness.