Law of tithing

[Albarianotlink]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

That's what I ment. Tithing should be fair. When I was single, it was easy to pay tithing. Now I'm married and have two kids, tithing is realy difficult when I pay tithing based on my income. For many years I paid too much. I feel guilty towards my wife and kids, because of this mistake. It has cost me 10-thousands of Euro's. I didn't get the blessings I was promised. Instead of that, I became disabled. I'm allready waiting for seven years for my insurancemoney. I didn't understand why this was all happening. In december 2010 I was listening to my bishop about tithing, I felt guilty because I hadn't paid a full tithing over my income. I wanted to pay it, but i didn't know how, I had too much financial problems. A few minutes later I was standing in front of the sacramenttable, ready for serving the sacrament. A personnal vision was giving to me and a person/angel in this vision told me that I had paid all my tithings. I was amazed, I didn't expect this at all. I thought I still had too pay for a few months, but he told and explained me that I had paid my full tithing and even too much. The spirit was really strong and the holy spirit told me also why I had paid more than enough. All the bad things that happened to me and my family had cost us a great amount of money. Disability, illnesses, carproblems, less money as income, but more expenses. I had to sell my car and I'm still paying for it's loan. That's why you pay tithing over the money you don't really need, like Abraham did. Luxery is what you don't really need. But a house, a car or other forms of tranportation, food, insurances, clothing, medical cost ect. are really needed. They are the basics. An expensive car or house are for the big part luxery, they can be sold if really needed. You can eat less expensive food, wear secondhandclothes, accept charity ect. but certain things will still cost money. Over the money that I call luxery I will pay tithing in the future. If I have no money left I will pay no tithing. Over supportmoney I pay no tithing. It's even illigal in the Netherlands to pay tithing over what we call "bijstand". This money is a person or family given by our goverment for basic living expensives, if you don't have any other money to support yourself or your own family. They don't accept it that you pay tithing over money that has been giving by them to support yourself. The members of the church have to abide to govermentlaws. At the moment it is all very clear to me. If you have money enough you can pay over your income, if your income is too low or the really needed expenses too high, you can pay over your interest or increase. This is the honest way and the way of the lord during this time. In the future everything will be different, but untill than I will pay it the way it has been revealed to me. This is the same way as the prophets has told as, it's the livitical law from the bible and also has it been written In D&C 119. This is not a bit more fair but very fair. What I don't understand is why there is so many confusion. Why are the leaders of the church not clear about this? It seems that they have different opinions, they should teach the people the true way of the Lord. I think more members will pay tithings if they know what really the law of tithing is. This way is a fair way. My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

[Albarianotlink]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

That's what I ment. Tithing should be fair. When I was single, it was easy to pay tithing. Now I'm married and have two kids, tithing is realy difficult when I pay tithing based on my income. For many years I paid too much. I feel guilty towards my wife and kids, because of this mistake. It has cost me 10-thousands of Euro's. I didn't get the blessings I was promised. Instead of that, I became disabled. I'm allready waiting for seven years for my insurancemoney. I didn't understand why this was all happening. In december 2010 I was listening to my bishop about tithing, I felt guilty because I hadn't paid a full tithing over my income. I wanted to pay it, but i didn't know how, I had too much financial problems. A few minutes later I was standing in front of the sacramenttable, ready for serving the sacrament. A personnal vision was giving to me and a person/angel in this vision told me that I had paid all my tithings. I was amazed, I didn't expect this at all. I thought I still had too pay for a few months, but he told and explained me that I had paid my full tithing and even too much. The spirit was really strong and the holy spirit told me also why I had paid more than enough. All the bad things that happened to me and my family had cost us a great amount of money. Disability, illnesses, carproblems, less money as income, but more expenses. I had to sell my car and I'm still paying for it's loan. That's why you pay tithing over the money you don't really need, like Abraham did. Luxery is what you don't really need. But a house, a car or other forms of tranportation, food, insurances, clothing, medical cost ect. are really needed. They are the basics. An expensive car or house are for the big part luxery, they can be sold if really needed. You can eat less expensive food, wear secondhandclothes, accept charity ect. but certain things will still cost money. Over the money that I call luxery I will pay tithing in the future. If I have no money left I will pay no tithing. Over supportmoney I pay no tithing. It's even illigal in the Netherlands to pay tithing over what we call "bijstand". This money is a person or family given by our goverment for basic living expensives, if you don't have any other money to support yourself or your own family. They don't accept it that you pay tithing over money that has been giving by them to support yourself. The members of the church have to abide to govermentlaws. At the moment it is all very clear to me. If you have money enough you can pay over your income, if your income is too low or the really needed expenses too high, you can pay over your interest or increase. This is the honest way and the way of the lord during this time. In the future everything will be different, but untill than I will pay it the way it has been revealed to me. This is the same way as the prophets has told as, it's the livitical law from the bible and also has it been written In D&C 119. This is not a bit more fair but very fair. What I don't understand is why there is so many confusion. Why are the leaders of the church not clear about this? It seems that they have different opinions, they should teach the people the true way of the Lord. I think more members will pay tithings if they know what really the law of tithing is. This way is a fair way. My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

[NoGreaterLove]

As many of you know, I have been weaning off this forum due to the apostate behavior. I have messaged many of you over the last few months telling you of my intentions to do so. Brian's actions are contrary to the counsel of our prophet. He has chosen moderators who condone and encourage evil speaking of apostles and prophets, and has allowed people to come on to this forum expressing disdain for the sacred doctrines of the church, tithing being one example. Brian has had many opportunities to correct this behavior as myself and others have pm'd him at his request.
One person suggested we have a special area for those of us to speak without being bombarded by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. His response was to create a locked forum for Denver Snuffer, who teaches the church has gone astray and the keys of the priesthood are not in the hands of Pres. Monson (per his own words, in his own book) so no one would speak evil of him. That should throw a huge RED FLAG up for those seeking the truth of what LDSFF is about.
This forum will destroy itself in time. Those of you seeking answers to your gospel questions. Search otherwise and remember the story of the tares among the wheat. Pres Monson is of the purest wheat. This is Christ's church. It is not lead astray. The Book of Mormon is true. The principle of tithing as constituted by our current leaders is being handled the way our Lord wants it to be handled at this time.

Anyways. I now use another forum. It follows the rules of no apostate behavior. To my many friends, may our Lord ever be with you. You know we will meet.

[reese]

My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

Thanks for sharing your story. Don't worry about the english. I figure if someone speaks(or writes ) with an accent, then that means they know at least one more language than I do.

[jonesde]

As many of you know, I have been weaning off this forum due to the apostate behavior. I have messaged many of you over the last few months telling you of my intentions to do so. Brian's actions are contrary to the counsel of our prophet. He has chosen moderators who condone and encourage evil speaking of apostles and prophets, and has allowed people to come on to this forum expressing disdain for the sacred doctrines of the church, tithing being one example. Brian has had many opportunities to correct this behavior as myself and others have pm'd him at his request.
One person suggested we have a special area for those of us to speak without being bombarded by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. His response was to create a locked forum for Denver Snuffer, who teaches the church has gone astray and the keys of the priesthood are not in the hands of Pres. Monson (per his own words, in his own book) so no one would speak evil of him. That should throw a huge RED FLAG up for those seeking the truth of what LDSFF is about.
This forum will destroy itself in time. Those of you seeking answers to your gospel questions. Search otherwise and remember the story of the tares among the wheat. Pres Monson is of the purest wheat. This is Christ's church. It is not lead astray. The Book of Mormon is true. The principle of tithing as constituted by our current leaders is being handled the way our Lord wants it to be handled at this time.

Anyways. I now use another forum. It follows the rules of no apostate behavior. To my many friends, may our Lord ever be with you. You know we will meet.

Well, thanks for sticking around at least a little longer NGL. It's nice to have at least one perfect person here.

[Fairminded]

I always took increase to mean anywhere you saw a net gain. So your paycheck would all be increase, but if you were to sell a piece of property you'd already paid for and the amount you sold it for was equal to or less than what you paid, that wouldn't be increase. If you were paying mortgage on a house, the amount you paid in wouldn't be increase and so wouldn't be tithed, but when you sold the house the amount of the mortgage would count as increase (or to put it another way you could get a loan and either immediately pay tithing on it, or pay the loan off and pay tithing on the money used to pay it.)

Sounds a bit convoluted, but it feels right to me.

Just a thought on the mortgage. Was not every day that you lived in the house worth value? So shouldn't part of the mortgage you pay be compensation for that value?

Perhaps, but it's not a monetary increase. I also don't pay tithing for non-monetary gifts unless I were to sell one, at which point I would pay tithing on the proceeds.

[Walden]

That's what I ment. Tithing should be fair. When I was single, it was easy to pay tithing. Now I'm married and have two kids, tithing is realy difficult when I pay tithing based on my income. For many years I paid too much. I feel guilty towards my wife and kids, because of this mistake. It has cost me 10-thousands of Euro's. I didn't get the blessings I was promised. Instead of that, I became disabled. I'm allready waiting for seven years for my insurancemoney. I didn't understand why this was all happening. In december 2010 I was listening to my bishop about tithing, I felt guilty because I hadn't paid a full tithing over my income. I wanted to pay it, but i didn't know how, I had too much financial problems. A few minutes later I was standing in front of the sacramenttable, ready for serving the sacrament. A personnal vision was giving to me and a person/angel in this vision told me that I had paid all my tithings. I was amazed, I didn't expect this at all. I thought I still had too pay for a few months, but he told and explained me that I had paid my full tithing and even too much. The spirit was really strong and the holy spirit told me also why I had paid more than enough. All the bad things that happened to me and my family had cost us a great amount of money. Disability, illnesses, carproblems, less money as income, but more expenses. I had to sell my car and I'm still paying for it's loan. That's why you pay tithing over the money you don't really need, like Abraham did. Luxery is what you don't really need. But a house, a car or other forms of tranportation, food, insurances, clothing, medical cost ect. are really needed. They are the basics. An expensive car or house are for the big part luxery, they can be sold if really needed. You can eat less expensive food, wear secondhandclothes, accept charity ect. but certain things will still cost money. Over the money that I call luxery I will pay tithing in the future. If I have no money left I will pay no tithing. Over supportmoney I pay no tithing. It's even illigal in the Netherlands to pay tithing over what we call "bijstand". This money is a person or family given by our goverment for basic living expensives, if you don't have any other money to support yourself or your own family. They don't accept it that you pay tithing over money that has been giving by them to support yourself. The members of the church have to abide to govermentlaws. At the moment it is all very clear to me. If you have money enough you can pay over your income, if your income is too low or the really needed expenses too high, you can pay over your interest or increase. This is the honest way and the way of the lord during this time. In the future everything will be different, but untill than I will pay it the way it has been revealed to me. This is the same way as the prophets has told as, it's the livitical law from the bible and also has it been written In D&C 119. This is not a bit more fair but very fair. What I don't understand is why there is so many confusion. Why are the leaders of the church not clear about this? It seems that they have different opinions, they should teach the people the true way of the Lord. I think more members will pay tithings if they know what really the law of tithing is. This way is a fair way. My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

Thank you for your story, I feel for you and hope that things will get better for you. The Lord blesses them who follow him exactly!

[ithink]

And your SP was absolutely right it is not fair. Not fair to Christ.

Sorry, but that is not what he meant at all. He meant it was fairer for the rich guy, that the law of tithing is a form of persecution to the poor.

The Lord will not speak to us through darkness. Darkness is of Satan. Did you feel any of these fruits at the time of darkness? If is was the Holy Ghost this would have been the feeling that would have come from your enlightenment.

I said it, but you have pointed it out. If you are being told something that is wrong, do you think the Holy Ghost will warm your bosom?

From the way you described your reaction and what you were seeing during this darkness, you were ready to throw away you right to go through the temple. Why would HF tell you to do that? Darkness is not of the Lord. You described it at darkness. That should be your answer to yourself.

Like I said, the author is the only one who is able to interpret what he has written while he is alive. Your interpretation of what I experienced is not correct. I'll leave you to consider as to what that whole experience was about. That experience was not completed for 3 more months when I spent an entire day with the SP on a speaking assignment. My feelings on the entire matter have been painted well enough to understand, I believe, for anyone who wishes to understand what is happening.

[ithink]

ithink, you clearly don't believe that the Lord blesses those who pay a full and honest tithe.

I'm not telling you what I believe. I'm just relating my experience, when I paid too much, in obedience to the instruction to pay on my income. I don't anymore, and I have been over this with my SP and bishop, who know me personally. So what is your issue?

[ithink]

You know we will meet.

We will. But you should know that this year our 8th child will join us. This will increase our financial burden, but we will find a way to survive. When we all meet the saviour, we will be asked where our family are, or at least we will know who they all are, our could have been. This is only possible because we tithe as the canon instructs us. This is one question I will not hang my head on. I had to be humiliated before I would stop doing what Cain did: "The do it my way problem". Since we did that, we have been richly blessed. The desire I have had to know everything I possibly could has been happening. I am in possession of rivers of knowledge that others could care less for. Through this knowledge, I am able to bear testimony AFTER first connecting the dots. This is the pattern laid out by the saviour in 3 Nephi, to put down contentions once and for all. When you see contention that seems not to go away, examine it and you will see that this pattern has not been followed. You will see a pattern of testimony, but no written reference to back it up, from the canon. You may think that is not important, but I remember that when Christ himself was challenged by Satan, he defeated him by repeatedly referring to "it is written". To discount the writings, to let go of the iron rod, is always a mistake, no matter who you are.

You have just received the testimony of two of us who have had unusual spiritual experiences confirming that the way tithing is laid out in the canon is exactly the way it is to be paid. Take it or leave it, but quoting Joseph Smith, I cannot deny what I experienced because I know that God knows it too.

Why am I doing this? I love this church. I can't stand idly while any more of my friends leave the church. There aren't many left anymore. It is very sad. And since much of what they say is correct, there is nothing I can do to help them. They have issues, but we all do. I am also doing it for my kids. I will do what I can to see to it that things are better for them politically, economically, and theologically. And if I can't help in any of these areas, I will die trying.

Should my words have appeared toxic to you, I regret that. I would hope you could see what I see, but if not, I still have no animosity against you personally.

[ithink]

That's what I ment. Tithing should be fair. When I was single, it was easy to pay tithing. Now I'm married and have two kids, tithing is realy difficult when I pay tithing based on my income. For many years I paid too much. I feel guilty towards my wife and kids, because of this mistake. It has cost me 10-thousands of Euro's. I didn't get the blessings I was promised. Instead of that, I became disabled. I'm allready waiting for seven years for my insurancemoney. I didn't understand why this was all happening. In december 2010 I was listening to my bishop about tithing, I felt guilty because I hadn't paid a full tithing over my income. I wanted to pay it, but i didn't know how, I had too much financial problems. A few minutes later I was standing in front of the sacramenttable, ready for serving the sacrament. A personnal vision was giving to me and a person/angel in this vision told me that I had paid all my tithings. I was amazed, I didn't expect this at all. I thought I still had too pay for a few months, but he told and explained me that I had paid my full tithing and even too much. The spirit was really strong and the holy spirit told me also why I had paid more than enough. All the bad things that happened to me and my family had cost us a great amount of money. Disability, illnesses, carproblems, less money as income, but more expenses. I had to sell my car and I'm still paying for it's loan. That's why you pay tithing over the money you don't really need, like Abraham did. Luxery is what you don't really need. But a house, a car or other forms of tranportation, food, insurances, clothing, medical cost ect. are really needed. They are the basics. An expensive car or house are for the big part luxery, they can be sold if really needed. You can eat less expensive food, wear secondhandclothes, accept charity ect. but certain things will still cost money. Over the money that I call luxery I will pay tithing in the future. If I have no money left I will pay no tithing. Over supportmoney I pay no tithing. It's even illigal in the Netherlands to pay tithing over what we call "bijstand". This money is a person or family given by our goverment for basic living expensives, if you don't have any other money to support yourself or your own family. They don't accept it that you pay tithing over money that has been giving by them to support yourself. The members of the church have to abide to govermentlaws. At the moment it is all very clear to me. If you have money enough you can pay over your income, if your income is too low or the really needed expenses too high, you can pay over your interest or increase. This is the honest way and the way of the lord during this time. In the future everything will be different, but untill than I will pay it the way it has been revealed to me. This is the same way as the prophets has told as, it's the livitical law from the bible and also has it been written In D&C 119. This is not a bit more fair but very fair. What I don't understand is why there is so many confusion. Why are the leaders of the church not clear about this? It seems that they have different opinions, they should teach the people the true way of the Lord. I think more members will pay tithings if they know what really the law of tithing is. This way is a fair way. My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

Thank you for your story, I don't feel so alone anymore.

[loquaciousmomma]

@ithink - You have made a few different statements about the church and its tithing program. The definition of what a tithe actually consists of, is actually the least controversial, with a caveat.

If you feel the Lord has told you it means to pay on your excess, that is between you and the Lord. I have actually been frustrated when I try to get my local leaders to tell me exactly what is meant by tithing. Does it mean pre-tax, post-tax? Do I pay on my gross small business income, or my taxable small business income, after expenses? What exactly is the true definition of profit, anyway?

I have never been given an answer, and have been told it is between me and the Lord. The problem is, I tend to be anxious and so I want to be extremely careful about what I consider my income and prefer to err in over paying. This isn't to feel better than anyone else, but rather to avoid the chance of underpaying. My husband, on the other hand, is admittedly more casual about tithing. So, it is a challenge at tithing settlement time as he may feel, for example, that we are okay, but I might not. We have never found resolution by speaking with the branch president, as he just tells us it is up to the two of us.

The point being, you will have to stand before the Lord to account for the definition of tithing you have chosen to use. No one is in a position to tell you any different.

Now, just as no one is in a position to tell you your definition is wrong, so are you not justified in preaching to anyone else the definition you have embraced. Let them come to a conclusion themselves.

Of course, there have been prophets who have clarified the definition of tithing, such as President Hinckley saying

"Tithing is so simple and straightforward a thing. The principle, as it applies to us, is actually set forth in one verse of section 119 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

“And after that [after the Saints offered their ‘surplus property’ to the bishop in 1838], those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.” [D&C 119:4]

For many years, presidents of the Church have interpreted “interest” as “income.” Beyond that, they have not elaborated. That fourth verse consists of thirty-five words. Contrast that with the cumbersome and complex tax codes enacted and enforced by governments.

Nevertheless, the church's official position, as it relates to the individual is:

"Every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly." (March 19, 1970, letter from the First Presidency.)

It is wise to leave it at that.

[loquaciousmomma]

As many of you know, I have been weaning off this forum due to the apostate behavior. I have messaged many of you over the last few months telling you of my intentions to do so. Brian's actions are contrary to the counsel of our prophet. He has chosen moderators who condone and encourage evil speaking of apostles and prophets, and has allowed people to come on to this forum expressing disdain for the sacred doctrines of the church, tithing being one example. Brian has had many opportunities to correct this behavior as myself and others have pm'd him at his request.
One person suggested we have a special area for those of us to speak without being bombarded by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. His response was to create a locked forum for Denver Snuffer, who teaches the church has gone astray and the keys of the priesthood are not in the hands of Pres. Monson (per his own words, in his own book) so no one would speak evil of him. That should throw a huge RED FLAG up for those seeking the truth of what LDSFF is about.
This forum will destroy itself in time. Those of you seeking answers to your gospel questions. Search otherwise and remember the story of the tares among the wheat. Pres Monson is of the purest wheat. This is Christ's church. It is not lead astray. The Book of Mormon is true. The principle of tithing as constituted by our current leaders is being handled the way our Lord wants it to be handled at this time.

Anyways. I now use another forum. It follows the rules of no apostate behavior. To my many friends, may our Lord ever be with you. You know we will meet.

The forum will definitely not be the same without you.

[loquaciousmomma]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

That's what I ment. Tithing should be fair. When I was single, it was easy to pay tithing. Now I'm married and have two kids, tithing is realy difficult when I pay tithing based on my income. For many years I paid too much. I feel guilty towards my wife and kids, because of this mistake. It has cost me 10-thousands of Euro's. I didn't get the blessings I was promised. Instead of that, I became disabled. I'm allready waiting for seven years for my insurancemoney. I didn't understand why this was all happening. In december 2010 I was listening to my bishop about tithing, I felt guilty because I hadn't paid a full tithing over my income. I wanted to pay it, but i didn't know how, I had too much financial problems. A few minutes later I was standing in front of the sacramenttable, ready for serving the sacrament. A personnal vision was giving to me and a person/angel in this vision told me that I had paid all my tithings. I was amazed, I didn't expect this at all. I thought I still had too pay for a few months, but he told and explained me that I had paid my full tithing and even too much. The spirit was really strong and the holy spirit told me also why I had paid more than enough. All the bad things that happened to me and my family had cost us a great amount of money. Disability, illnesses, carproblems, less money as income, but more expenses. I had to sell my car and I'm still paying for it's loan. That's why you pay tithing over the money you don't really need, like Abraham did. Luxery is what you don't really need. But a house, a car or other forms of tranportation, food, insurances, clothing, medical cost ect. are really needed. They are the basics. An expensive car or house are for the big part luxery, they can be sold if really needed. You can eat less expensive food, wear secondhandclothes, accept charity ect. but certain things will still cost money. Over the money that I call luxery I will pay tithing in the future. If I have no money left I will pay no tithing. Over supportmoney I pay no tithing. It's even illigal in the Netherlands to pay tithing over what we call "bijstand". This money is a person or family given by our goverment for basic living expensives, if you don't have any other money to support yourself or your own family. They don't accept it that you pay tithing over money that has been giving by them to support yourself. The members of the church have to abide to govermentlaws. At the moment it is all very clear to me. If you have money enough you can pay over your income, if your income is too low or the really needed expenses too high, you can pay over your interest or increase. This is the honest way and the way of the lord during this time. In the future everything will be different, but untill than I will pay it the way it has been revealed to me. This is the same way as the prophets has told as, it's the livitical law from the bible and also has it been written In D&C 119. This is not a bit more fair but very fair. What I don't understand is why there is so many confusion. Why are the leaders of the church not clear about this? It seems that they have different opinions, they should teach the people the true way of the Lord. I think more members will pay tithings if they know what really the law of tithing is. This way is a fair way. My well ment excuses for spellingmistakes, i'm dutch, english is not my native language. English is in dutch "engels" and could mean in dutch the language of angels. Old dutch and old english or very simmilar, but still I make a lot of grammatical mistakes, sorry about that, i'm not an angel. CU O:-)

I am sorry that you have had such difficulty. Life can be so challenging sometimes!!!

I caution you against teaching others the definition of tithing as you have accepted it. Rather, it is something that the individual must decide for himself.

I would also like to suggest that you just might have become disabled whether or not you paid your tithing as you were at the time. Sometimes, we are called to endure difficulty to increase our faith or to learn a lesson. Sometimes it is what we need to experience in this life to become the person the Lord knows we should be. It is rarely a punishment for obeying a law of the gospel the best of your ability, but not exactly according to a certain definition.

Just some food for though.

[Raindrop]

I am sorry that you have had such difficulty. Life can be so challenging sometimes!!!

I caution you against teaching others the definition of tithing as you have accepted it. Rather, it is something that the individual must decide for himself.

I would also like to suggest that you just might have become disabled whether or not you paid your tithing as you were at the time. Sometimes, we are called to endure difficulty to increase our faith or to learn a lesson. Sometimes it is what we need to experience in this life to become the person the Lord knows we should be. It is rarely a punishment for obeying a law of the gospel the best of your ability, but not exactly according to a certain definition.

Just some food for though.

Something tells me your food for thought doesn't work both ways, though. If he had had some great blessing suddenly - some triple paying job or the "unexpected check in the mail" - you would have him give all credit to the Lord. Bad things - happen whether or not you pay tithing. Good things - only happen because of tithing.

[loquaciousmomma]

I am sorry that you have had such difficulty. Life can be so challenging sometimes!!!

I caution you against teaching others the definition of tithing as you have accepted it. Rather, it is something that the individual must decide for himself.

I would also like to suggest that you just might have become disabled whether or not you paid your tithing as you were at the time. Sometimes, we are called to endure difficulty to increase our faith or to learn a lesson. Sometimes it is what we need to experience in this life to become the person the Lord knows we should be. It is rarely a punishment for obeying a law of the gospel the best of your ability, but not exactly according to a certain definition.

Just some food for though.

Something tells me your food for thought doesn't work both ways, though. If he had had some great blessing suddenly - some triple paying job or the "unexpected check in the mail" - you would have him give all credit to the Lord. Bad things - happen whether or not you pay tithing. Good things - only happen because of tithing.

Nope, not exactly. Yes, the Lord does bless us monetarily when we pay tithing, but not always. He blesses us for our obedience to the law of tithing in countless ways, only one of which may be monetarily.

Besides, I specifically said that you wouldn't be punished for "living the law to the best of your ability, but not exactly according to a certain definition".

This is in response to the specific situation he shared in which he felt he was overpaying and thus being, essentially, punished for it. I was simply saying that this explanation of his circumstances was not necessarily the correct one.

The Lord gives and He takes away. He does allow trouble into our lives, but we often misinterpret the reason until much later, when we can look back with much wiser eyes.

[ithink]

@ithink - You have made a few different statements about the church and its tithing program. The definition of what a tithe actually consists of, is actually the least controversial, with a caveat.

The definition is the topic. And the definition is:

If you feel the Lord has told you it means to pay on your excess, that is between you and the Lord.

Now if you think back to the temple, what gospel do we obey, and where is that gospel? That is what I am mandated to obey. And I do, and my SP and bishop are OK with that, so you can relax. But they haven't answered my questions either, nor have I been told to be quiet. In fact, the opposite.

It is wise to leave it at that.

It is always wise to side with truth: the alternative is error. And the evidence and testimonies are mounting on the side of truth.

[loquaciousmomma]

@ithink - You have made a few different statements about the church and its tithing program. The definition of what a tithe actually consists of, is actually the least controversial, with a caveat.

The definition is the topic. And the definition is:

If you feel the Lord has told you it means to pay on your excess, that is between you and the Lord.

Now if you think back to the temple, what gospel do we obey, and where is that gospel? That is what I am mandated to obey. And I do, and my SP and bishop are OK with that, so you can relax. But they haven't answered my questions either, nor have I been told to be quiet. In fact, the opposite.

It is wise to leave it at that.

It is always wise to side with truth: the alternative is error. And the evidence and testimonies are mounting on the side of truth.

Anytime someone places themselves above the Lord's anointed and preaches that which he feels is more than what they have taught, they are in dangerous territory. In fact, they may be said to be looking beyond the mark.

[A Random Phrase]

ithink, I have been following this tithing thread and the other one pretty much since they began. Not being a member, I couldn't say anything. Now I'm a member, and I want to tell you and those like you on this thread thank you. My eyes have been opened as I realized that tithing is God's compassion for the poor.

I have taken what you said to the Lord. It actually takes more faith for me to live it this way because I'm insecure about stepping out into new waters, but the Spirit has assured me that God is with me as I go forward.

I noticed that D&C 119:5 (the verse after the two everyone has been so freely quoting) says, "all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties". So, are some of the people on the threads saying we aren't really in the land of Zion, then, since we are not tithed of our surplus properties? (Just wondering.)

[loquaciousmomma]

ithink, I have been following this tithing thread and the other one pretty much since they began. Not being a member, I couldn't say anything. Now I'm a member, and I want to tell you and those like you on this thread thank you. My eyes have been opened as I realized that tithing is God's compassion for the poor.

I have taken what you said to the Lord. It actually takes more faith for me to live it this way because I'm insecure about stepping out into new waters, but the Spirit has assured me that God is with me as I go forward.

I noticed that D&C 119:5 (the verse after the two everyone has been so freely quoting) says, "all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties". So, are some of the people on the threads saying we aren't really in the land of Zion, then, since we are not tithed of our surplus properties? (Just wondering.)

The scripture that you quote is taken out of context. Here is an excerpt of an excellent article entitled The Laws of Consecration, Stewardship, and Tithing, that clarifies this particular scripture.

Subsequent to their being driven from Ohio, the Lord designated Far West, Missouri, as the place of gathering for the Saints. On April 26, 1838, the Lord commanded that a temple be built in Far West. However, He also commanded the First Presidency that they were not to “get in debt any more for the building of a house unto my name” (D&C 115:13). On the other hand, attempts by the Saints to live the law of consecration had not provided for the expenses of building up the kingdom of God. Very few of the Saints at that time had many, if any, surplus goods, and of those that did very few considered their property to be surplus. President Brigham Young described the response of the Saints to consecrating surplus: “The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had, with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, ‘Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?’ Said he, ‘Let them be the judge themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.’

“Then I replied, ‘I will go and ask them for their surplus property;’ and I did so; I found the people said they were willing to do about as they were counselled, but, upon asking them about their surplus property, most of the men who owned land and cattle would say, ‘I have got so many hundred acres of land, and I have got so many boys, and I want each one of them to have eighty acres, therefore this is not surplus property.’ Again, ‘I have got so many girls, and I do not believe I shall be able to give them more than forty acres each.’ ‘Well, you have got two or three hundred acres left.’ ‘Yes, but I have a brother-in-law coming on, and he will depend on me for a living; my wife’s nephew is also coming on, he is poor, and I shall have to furnish him a farm after he arrives here.’ I would go on to the next one, and he would have more land and cattle than he could make use of to advantage. It is a laughable idea, but is nevertheless true, men would tell me they were young and beginning the world, and would say, ‘We have no children, but our prospects are good, and we think we shall have a family of children, and if we do, we want to give them eighty acres of land each; we have no surplus property.’ ‘How many cattle have you?’ ‘So many.’ ‘How many horses, &c?’ ‘So many, but I have made provisions for all these, and I have use for every thing I have got.’

“Some were disposed to do right with their surplus property, and once in a while you would find a man who had a cow which he considered surplus, but generally she was of the class that would kick a person’s hat off, or eyes out, or the wolves had eaten off her teats. You would once in a while find a man who had a horse that he considered surplus, but at the same time he had the ringbone, was broken-winded, spavined in both legs, had the pole evil at one end of the neck and a fistula at the other, and both knees sprung.”[24] In December 1837, at Far West, Missouri, Bishop Partridge met with John Corrill and Isaac Morley as a committee to determine how the expenses of the kingdom could be sustained. They proposed “a plan wher[e]by the church of Latter Day Saints may voluntarily raise means by tithing themselves to be a fund ready at all times to assist the poor.”[25] They decided to try to raise “five mills . . . upon the dollar which every man is worth.”[26] This plan consisted of the Saints estimating their total assets in property and goods and paying two cents on the dollar. A further proposition was that widows and those “families not worth over seventy five dollars each, should not be required to tithe themselves and yet retain an honorable standing in the church.”[27] It is evident that at this time the Saints did not have a firm understanding of the principle of tithing.

Needing further light, the Prophet Joseph Smith “inquired of the Lord, ‘O Lord! Show unto thy servant how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.’”[28] In response the Lord declared, “I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, for the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and the debts of the Presidency of my Church. And this,” He continued, “shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one tenth of all their interest annually” (D&C 119:1–4). Thus, the law of tithing did not replace the principle of consecration; rather, it defined the surplus to be consecrated as one-tenth of one’s increase. Indeed, consecration was referred to as a tithing of surplus properties, and an additional tithing of ten percent was given as “a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).

It is noteworthy that the command that the Saints pay one-tenth of their increase annually often requires a greater sacrifice of property than that required by the law of consecration and stewardship, as practiced in the early days of this dispensation. To be precise, in the law of consecration of property, after the Saints lay their substance and possessions before the bishop, they receive a stewardship to provide for their needs. Later, if from their stewardship they produce more than is necessary for their support (see D&C 42:33)—or in other words, a residue or a surplus—they contribute that surplus to the Church. The great difference here is that the law of tithing requires that the Saints pay a tenth of their income annually, not the surplus after their needs have been satisfied. The law of tithing may thus be identified as a law of sacrifice. That is, in obeying the law of tithing, many Saints sacrifice their own needs to contribute to the building up of the kingdom of God.

Because of the sacrifice we offer to the Lord, He promises great blessings as we willingly pay our tithing. President Joseph F. Smith taught:

“The bishop should encourage every man, woman and child who earns and receives a return for labor, to honor the Lord and to prove obedient to the law of God by giving the one-tenth of that which he or she receives, as the Lord requires, so that they may have their names enrolled on the book of the law of the Lord, that their genealogies may be had in the archives of the Church, and that they may be entitled to the privileges and blessings of the house of God.

“I recollect most vividly a circumstance that occurred in the days of my childhood. My mother was a widow, with a large family to provide for. One spring when we opened our potato pits, she had her boys get a load of the best potatoes and she took them to the tithing office; potatoes were scarce that season. I was a little boy at the time, and drove the team. When we drove up to the steps of the tithing office, ready to unload the potatoes, one of the clerks came out and said to my mother, ‘Widow Smith, it’s a shame that you should have to pay tithing,’ . . . and he chided my mother for paying her tithing, called her anything but wise or prudent; and said there were others who were strong and able to work that were supported from the tithing office. My mother turned upon him and said: “William, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Would you deny me a blessing? If I did not pay my tithing, I should expect the Lord to withhold his blessings from me. I pay my tithing, not only because it is a law of God, but because I expect a blessing by doing it. By keeping this and other laws, I expect to prosper, and to be able to provide for my family.’ Though she was a widow, you may turn to the records of the Church from the beginning unto the day of her death, and you will find that she never received a farthing from the Church to help her support herself and her family; but she paid in thousands of dollars in wheat, potatoes, corn, vegetables, meat, etc. The tithes of her sheep and cattle, the tenth pound of her butter, her tenth chicken, the tenth of her eggs, the tenth pig, the tenth calf, the tenth colt—a tenth of everything she raised was paid. Here sits my brother who can bear testimony to the truth of what I say, as can others who knew her. She prospered because she obeyed the laws of God. She had abundance to sustain her family.”[29]
Conclusion

The Church continues to be governed by the principles of the laws of consecration, stewardship, and tithing. Saints are expected to consecrate to build up the kingdom and provide for the poor. However, in general, the law of stewardship no longer includes temporal property. Rather, we often receive responsibilities in Church callings. There are relatively few who are given stewardship or responsibility for temporal property. Consequently, as a general rule we are still under obligation to live principles of the law of consecration but not the laws of stewardship governing temporal property.

Further, the kingdom of God continues to be built up by the faithful tithes and offerings of the poor, as well as those who have been blessed beyond their needs with a surplus. The millions of poor in the Church that give their tithe to the Lord follow the path taken by the widow in Christ’s day, who gave two mites in her poverty and not out of her abundance but out of her faith (see Mark 12:41–44). In essence, they live the laws of consecration and sacrifice.

The consecration and stewardship of property was the Lord’s means to teach the Saints that all things are His. Consecration is a higher law than tithing only when it extends beyond that which is temporal and involves dedicating all of one’s time, talent, and energies that may be needed to the building up of the Lord’s kingdom (see D&C 105:3–5). It then envelopes the law of tithing as individuals consecrate everything that they are and possess to the Lord and His work.

The law of tithing has evolved with the church. We were taught line upon line as the people were ready. What is being suggested on this thread is that we are still required to tithe as if we were living the law of consecration completely, even though we are not. The requirement of paying a surplus was only meant to accompany a people who consecrated all of their belongings to the church and received enough for their needs in return, and then were expected to use what they were given stewardship over to earn an increase.

Very different definition for a very different time.

[Steve Clark]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, Mama, but isn't that same section our current justification for the way we tithe in the church? Seems it is what is mostly quoted by GAs when teaching the principle.

[loquaciousmomma]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, Mama, but isn't that same section our current justification for the way we tithe in the church? Seems it is what is mostly quoted by GAs when teaching the principle.

The part that is quoted the most is the "ten percent of their interest annually" part. This scripture, in reading in completely is perfectly clear:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

The key part is "and this shall be the beginning". It was the first step in the transition to our current tithing requirements. The part that applies to us is the "after that" part, that is the part that "shall be a standing law forever", namely the "one-tenth of all their interest annually" section. The surplus requirement was obviously meant to be temporary, or why would there be an 'after'?

[A Random Phrase]

It is noteworthy that the command that the Saints pay one-tenth of their increase annually often requires a greater sacrifice of property than that required by the law of consecration and stewardship, as practiced in the early days of this dispensation

Yes, I have noticed this.

Thank you for the article. I had read the story at the beginning before, but not the whole thing you posted.

[loquaciousmomma]

It is noteworthy that the command that the Saints pay one-tenth of their increase annually often requires a greater sacrifice of property than that required by the law of consecration and stewardship, as practiced in the early days of this dispensation

Yes, I have noticed this.

Thank you for the article. I had read the story at the beginning before, but not the whole thing you posted.

You are welcome!

[loquaciousmomma]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, Mama, but isn't that same section our current justification for the way we tithe in the church? Seems it is what is mostly quoted by GAs when teaching the principle.

By the way, I am sorry if my response to this seemed unfriendly. I get caught up in the details, sometimes, and forget my manners.

Your post was definitely more thoughtful than mine.