Someone claims to have seen God

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Dylock
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 7
Location: Salt Lake City

Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Dylock »

So if a 14-year old boy came up to me, and said he had a vision of the Almighty, how would I respond?

I'm posting here because, to my deep joy, I have found others who have read books by Denver Snuffer, Jr.
Denver claims to have been commanded to write things of significant spiritual import.

I have read the contention that arises from discussion of Denver's fruit (much like anyone who teaches great things). Now I am wording this post very carefully. I am looking for others who enjoy a meaningful, hard look into their own lives. I am not looking to correct anyone nor be corrected, but share in the joy of others.
This isn't about whether Denver experienced what he truly did or not. It is about whether James 1:5 is true. God is on trial here (Mal 3:10), and I'd be hard pressed to find someone here who disagrees that God can't do anything that God sets his mind to. In fact I'd be surprised to be meet an LDS believer and have him deny the bedrock of our organization, that of revelation. If I asked God the question of if Joseph Smith saw him or not, how important would it be to me....if God responded, "Yea my son, he hath seen me and knoweth that I am"? I cannot, in good faith, leave a serious claim of divine import aside without investigating it.

I myself am nobody, and do not entertain any vanity about my status because of that. I've had no miraculous visions. But I do know that God answers sincere prayers (sometimes quite subtly).
I'm pretty much a sinner and looking to get my game on, to reconcile myself to the Holy One of Israel. I do not believe that I have to take this entire journey alone. I do not feel that I am to rejoice not with my fellow sinners. Rejoice in the gift that God has given us, the gift of his son.

What I am looking for:
Others who want to discuss the principles of repentance in Christ, found in Denver's books... after having read them. Actually that is optional, if you're all about repentance, why then I'm right there with you, neighbor!

What I am not looking for:
Others with whom to argue, defend, prove, debate, convince, opinionate, etc. To lead or be led.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so when it comes to sharing insights, I am looking for others to do so in a safe, reverent environment. Feel free to PM me, message here, or otherwise contact me. I've already PM'ed half of you anyway.

If you feel concerned in some way, I cannot stop you from posting. In fact, I imagine that the freedom to reply is a tenant of a 'freedom' forum!
If you do post something of concern, I will wonder if you misunderstood my intent. Please send me all of your love.

Walden
captain of 50
Posts: 83
Location: Not in Concord

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Walden »

Dylock wrote:So if a 14-year old boy came up to me, and said he had a vision of the Almighty, how would I respond?

I'm posting here because, to my deep joy, I have found others who have read books by Denver Snuffer, Jr.
Denver claims to have been commanded to write things of significant spiritual import.

I have read the contention that arises from discussion of Denver's fruit (much like anyone who teaches great things). Now I am wording this post very carefully. I am looking for others who enjoy a meaningful, hard look into their own lives. I am not looking to correct anyone nor be corrected, but share in the joy of others.
This isn't about whether Denver experienced what he truly did or not. It is about whether James 1:5 is true. God is on trial here (Mal 3:10), and I'd be hard pressed to find someone here who disagrees that God can't do anything that God sets his mind to. In fact I'd be surprised to be meet an LDS believer and have him deny the bedrock of our organization, that of revelation. If I asked God the question of if Joseph Smith saw him or not, how important would it be to me....if God responded, "Yea my son, he hath seen me and knoweth that I am"? I cannot, in good faith, leave a serious claim of divine import aside without investigating it.

I myself am nobody, and do not entertain any vanity about my status because of that. I've had no miraculous visions. But I do know that God answers sincere prayers (sometimes quite subtly).
I'm pretty much a sinner and looking to get my game on, to reconcile myself to the Holy One of Israel. I do not believe that I have to take this entire journey alone. I do not feel that I am to rejoice not with my fellow sinners. Rejoice in the gift that God has given us, the gift of his son.

What I am looking for:
Others who want to discuss the principles of repentance in Christ, found in Denver's books... after having read them. Actually that is optional, if you're all about repentance, why then I'm right there with you, neighbor!

What I am not looking for:
Others with whom to argue, defend, prove, debate, convince, opinionate, etc. To lead or be led.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so when it comes to sharing insights, I am looking for others to do so in a safe, reverent environment. Feel free to PM me, message here, or otherwise contact me. I've already PM'ed half of you anyway.

If you feel concerned in some way, I cannot stop you from posting. In fact, I imagine that the freedom to reply is a tenant of a 'freedom' forum!
If you do post something of concern, I will wonder if you misunderstood my intent. Please send me all of your love.
I totally agree. I admit I have not read his books, I wish I had, but I do follow his blog and just reading his blog alone has basically saved my faith in the church, not in the gospel or Christ but the church. I would post insight, but I don't know what to post. I've as much to learn as anybody.

Although I will say that if anybody judges Bro. Snuffer then they must have read his books. OR judge the way the scriptures tell us to. It something points to Christ it is good, if it doesn't then it is bad. And all I see Snuffer say points to Christ in some way.

User avatar
serenitylala
captain of 100
Posts: 755
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by serenitylala »

I agree.

I was once told this metaphor concerning prophets, but I imagine it applies to people whom have seen Christ and attempt to relay their stories:

Three painters see a scene before them. The scene is the same. It is the job of the painters to portray it to others whom have never laid eyes upon the scene.

Yet, how is it that three different pictures of the same scene arise?

Each painter has his own ability to make known to the world what he has seen in his own unique way: he has his individual skill as a painter (or orator), his own culture, his own emotions, and his own paint.

Would Monet's perspective be more correct than Rembrandt or Picasso?

Denver Snuffer isn't one of the best with the English language in terms of expressing himself, but he has told what he has seen. People can pray about it and receive their own witness, but that is there responsibility. He was only responsible for painting the picture, not for people's impressions of his work.

gardenerof12
captain of 10
Posts: 48

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by gardenerof12 »

It has been over a year since I read Second Comforter. I know I need to read it again. One thing from his book that was very helpful to me was when he talked about some of the challenges we would encounter along the path. One of those challenges was a disagreement with your bishop or leaders. Our ward had just split, and we had a brand new, younger, first-time bishop. We had a difference of opinion, I felt the Lord was giving me my answers, the bishop told me we would just have to "agree to disagree." I had a hard time with that, it is not the way to build Zion. As I read Second Comforter, I ran across the comment from the book that we still need to support those we have sustained, and this is a part of the "refiner's fire." It really helped me to understand that challenge.

User avatar
tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4526
Location: Reality

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by tmac »

I too have read The Second Comforter and found it very helpful. It includes many very valuable insights that just make a lot of sense, and I reflect on regularly. Snuffer takes a lot of time to discuss just how thoroughly a person should expect to be tested. And I appreciated his chapter about "What it Means and What it Doesn't Mean." He explained that just because a person might ultimately, after thorough testing, receive that wonderful experience, it doesn't mean that all life's problems suddenly go away. The mortgage still has to be paid; many people who have never had such an experience, and have far less spiritual insight, will be still be your church leaders (and you still need to sustain and support them -- and that is often one of the biggest tests); your physical, emotional and financial health will not suddenly and automatically be restored; your wayward children or spouse may wander even farther. Life is still life, and will continue to be a challenge, maybe even more so. But you will have new knowledge that will help in dealing with those issues and challenges.

I think it would be very interesting to have an open and meaningful discussion of such principles. But what I have seen before when similar topics and discussions have come up in the past is that because Snuffer is imperfect, and not one of the chosen vessels in established Church channels, and perhaps raises more questions than many are comfortable with, that certain people focus all their energy on attacking the messenger rather than openly considering the message, and that really puts a damper on the discussion.

User avatar
serenitylala
captain of 100
Posts: 755
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by serenitylala »

That right there is totally a wheat & tares thing: tares expect a righteous person to display, like they do, their "righteousness." I'm glad Denver isn't in the administrative channels, so that we can better see the tares when they complain that he isn't a church organization representative as their excuse not to believe in the teachings of Christ that he writes about. ;-)

reese
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1235

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by reese »

I love reading Denver Snuffers stuff. I 1st came across and read the 2nd comforter almost 2 years ago. I remeber as I read it I had this...feeling come alive in me. At first I was very hesitant. I kept thinking over and over "could this be true? Could I really do this?". I was also VERY skeptical of him. I had never read something(or heard) that made the gospel so enticing. I'm a life long, active, typical member of the church. But reading his book opened something in me that I never even knew existed. I could hardly believe it, but I really wanted to. Jesus Christ would come to me? To me? A tiny spark was ignited that has grown into a consuming flame.

I have had to re-adjust my thinking on many things. Sometimes that was difficult, mostly not. This gospel that has been unveiled in my life has become my obsession. It truly consumes my daily thoughts. Surely Moroni was talking to us when he quoted Christ saying:
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
This knowledge truly is hid up because of unbelief.

And again in Ether:
7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.
Jesus Christ IS the heavenly gift! Are we not truly "passing the heavenly gift"?

User avatar
serenitylala
captain of 100
Posts: 755
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by serenitylala »

I wonder if it has to do with a control issue for people to get angry over messages about calling and election being made sure like Snuffer's. I wonder if they don't want others to achieve these things, because they would lose control over them... If everyone honestly sought after the Second Comforter, it would effective raise the "standard" for membership... and I wonder if they just don't want the standard raised.

reese
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1235

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by reese »

serenitylala wrote:I wonder if it has to do with a control issue for people to get angry over messages about calling and election being made sure like Snuffer's. I wonder if they don't want others to achieve these things, because they would lose control over them... If everyone honestly sought after the Second Comforter, it would effective raise the "standard" for membership... and I wonder if they just don't want the standard raised.
I do believe people respond "negatively" often because they are scared. They think "what if this really is required, I'll never make it". I have encountered attitudes like that, they lash out at the message/messenger because really they fear that they won't be able to rise to the occasion.

It really is a scary thing to think about. To think that what we are doing/believing is not enough. That much more is required. That we have to truly cast off all unbelief and part the veil. That we actually can.... Yes the standard would be raised, but is it not anyway. If each blessing is predicated upon obedience to a specific commandment, then the standard is already raised. The requirements won't change just because someone does not want to believe them.

I was just looking in Snuffers last book, and got sidetracked reading it again. He points out that the time period that JS was alive the church had 100's of "things" added to it. Since his death only 4 "things" have been added to the religon, yet many, many things have been reduced or eliminated. And interestingly enough, in contrast to the deductions church membership has grown, wealth and political influence has expanded, temple building has increased, and scholarship defending Joseph Smith has flourished.

So does having the "standard lowered" somewhat, or at least not sought after and taught, increase membership and popularity?

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by shadow »

reese wrote:
serenitylala wrote:I wonder if it has to do with a control issue for people to get angry over messages about calling and election being made sure like Snuffer's. I wonder if they don't want others to achieve these things, because they would lose control over them... If everyone honestly sought after the Second Comforter, it would effective raise the "standard" for membership... and I wonder if they just don't want the standard raised.
I do believe people respond "negatively" often because they are scared. They think "what if this really is required, I'll never make it". I have encountered attitudes like that, they lash out at the message/messenger because really they fear that they won't be able to rise to the occasion.
Or maybe it's because some of what Snuffer teaches is in direct opposition to what our prophets teach #-o .

And Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration and he fulfilled his calling wonderfully so I wouldn't expect much more to be restored yet.

jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1294
Location: Albany, MO
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by jonesde »

serenitylala wrote:I wonder if it has to do with a control issue for people to get angry over messages about calling and election being made sure like Snuffer's. I wonder if they don't want others to achieve these things, because they would lose control over them... If everyone honestly sought after the Second Comforter, it would effective raise the "standard" for membership... and I wonder if they just don't want the standard raised.
Does Denver Snuffer claim to have had his Calling and Election made sure, or is that a conclusion someone made because he saw Christ? That may be answered in his books, I haven't read them.

My understanding of Calling and Election is that it does not necessarily involve the experience of seeing Christ, and seeing Christ does not imply a Calling and Election made sure, it is actually an ordinance of the Priesthood and generally performed by a prophet in a temple.

Nan
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2001
Location: texas

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Nan »

Calling and election made sure is different than the second comforter. The second comforter is seeing Christ. It comes AFTER your calling and election are made sure. Basically your calling and election made sure is being sealed up to go to the Celestial kingdom.

ATL Wake
captain of 100
Posts: 705

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by ATL Wake »

Having your calling and election made sure is something that the Lord does, not the prophet. Both receiving the Second Comforter and having one's calling and election made sure are closely linked but they are not necessarily together.
Receiving one's Second Washing and Anointing is what is performed by a member of the Quorum of 12 or First Presidency.

jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1294
Location: Albany, MO
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by jonesde »

Nan wrote:Calling and election made sure is different than the second comforter. The second comforter is seeing Christ. It comes AFTER your calling and election are made sure. Basically your calling and election made sure is being sealed up to go to the Celestial kingdom.
Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding of the term "Second Comforter" is that it is a fullness of the Light of Christ. We are all given a measure of the Light of Christ from birth, and by our choices it either grows or shrinks within us. The more of the Light of Christ one has within them the more they are influenced to do good, which is why it must grow in us only as we make good decisions and follow the commandments of God and teachings of Christ. If it were otherwise our agency would not be preserved. As the Light of Christ shrinks within us it actually reduces our ability to judge right and wrong, and in terms of judgment reduces the eternal impact of our choices because we are not as aware of their eternal consequences.

Once we have demonstrated that we will follow Christ in every way, the Light of Christ will be full within us and the influence of the Love of Christ will be our constant companion and we will have received the "Second Comforter". This is an incredible influence to do good and to love, so it is only given when it will not interfere with one's agency. With a fullness of the Light of Christ if one sins it is far more serious, and a sufficient sin once one has the fullness of the Light of Christ will result in the ultimate punishment of being cast into outer darkness.

With a fullness of the Light of Christ, one becomes eligible for the priesthood ordinance of Calling and Election made sure which is a sealing up on this earth to positions in the Celestial Kingdom, which have names that are spoken of in the temple and that I won't go into more here, but the template ordinances talk of this covenantal progression and make the path and the goal pretty clear.

Like
Member
Posts: 2358

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Like »

BrentL wrote:Denvers books have had a profound impact on my life. all for the good, but some terribly painful already. I can read the scriptures with much more clarity. I can honestly say that the biggest impact his writings have had on me is to convince me to go ahead and really believe what I was already reading in the Book of Mormon. not the way most people read it, but what is actually written. anyone who has given his books the benefit of the doubt and started on this path will know what I mean. I would love to be able to discuss these great things freely, and have felt regret that that has been impossible on this forum.

in light of that, I have talked to Brian and we will be making a members only area of this forum were we can talk freely about these things precious to us without the snide remarks and misunderstandings. it will be for discussing the ideas and scriptures in light of this understanding without having to defend those things to others who have not read the books or just dont agree.


I will be the moderator of that area of the forum. anyone interested in it pm me and I will put you on the list.

this is an invitation only list. but you are free to ask, seek, knock, for the invite.

Knock Knock, BrentL :-!

How do I PM you to get an invite?

Raindrop
captain of 100
Posts: 513

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Raindrop »

I've read The Second Comforter and Passing the Heavenly Gift. I'm part way through Come, Let Us Adore Him and will be borrowing Nephi's Isaiah from a friend soon.

I'm interested in discussing these things. :)
Although I can't see BrentL's pm button. :-B

ATL Wake
captain of 100
Posts: 705

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by ATL Wake »

I've read all of Denver's books and John Pontius' "Following the Light of Christ into His Presence".

BrentL put me on the list please.

Like
Member
Posts: 2358

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Like »

BrentL wrote:there is now a link to request access, and I also fixed my pm button. sorry about that.
Thank you

User avatar
NoGreaterLove
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3883
Location: Grantsville, Utah
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by NoGreaterLove »

There is a letter written by the prophet addressing Calling and Election made sure. It instructs the recipient of such a blessing that they are not to speak of it at all. One correspondence also says they can lose that blessing and become a son of perdition. A copy of it is on Bruce Porters website. KenH has it. Interesting that DS says he knows something about it and claims to have received it.

User avatar
NoGreaterLove
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3883
Location: Grantsville, Utah
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by NoGreaterLove »

jonesde wrote:
serenitylala wrote:I wonder if it has to do with a control issue for people to get angry over messages about calling and election being made sure like Snuffer's. I wonder if they don't want others to achieve these things, because they would lose control over them... If everyone honestly sought after the Second Comforter, it would effective raise the "standard" for membership... and I wonder if they just don't want the standard raised.
Does Denver Snuffer claim to have had his Calling and Election made sure, or is that a conclusion someone made because he saw Christ? That may be answered in his books, I haven't read them.

My understanding of Calling and Election is that it does not necessarily involve the experience of seeing Christ, and seeing Christ does not imply a Calling and Election made sure, it is actually an ordinance of the Priesthood and generally performed by a prophet in a temple.
According to the letters I read explaining it, the second comforter is just like the HG. You receive the right to have it, but it will only come once you are worthy.

ATL Wake
captain of 100
Posts: 705

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by ATL Wake »

Oh brother. Here we go again with the Denver hate. BrentL have you made the group yet?

NGL you have no idea what you criticize because you haven't even read his books.

Denver does not talk about HIS calling and election at all. He teaches people how THEY can get THEIRS. And he does it with KNOWLEDGE so deep and firm that signals that he knows what he's talking about.

Denver's not the only one either. John Pontius and James Custer have also written--encouraging people to have THEIR calling and election made sure. Hmm 3. I have not met one person who was not motivated to live a better life from reading their books.

They've all written books. All their writings point to Christ and motivate repentance. By their fruits....

I've read all of Denver's books and I don't really know a thing about him, other than he likes Harley Davidsons and he's a lawyer. He doesn't talk about himself. He talks about the process. If he talks about the process because he KNOWS about the process, that only makes him a worthwhile read.
Last edited by ATL Wake on January 12th, 2012, 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

ATL Wake
captain of 100
Posts: 705

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by ATL Wake »

NGL,
I spent a good while searching Bruce Porters website for any talk by any prophet that "instructs the recipient of such a blessing that they are not to speak of it at all."
I could not find one. Who made this claim?

User avatar
Gideon
captain of 100
Posts: 605

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Gideon »

serenitylala wrote:
Denver Snuffer isn't one of the best with the English language in terms of expressing himself, but he has told what he has seen. People can pray about it and receive their own witness, but that is there responsibility. He was only responsible for painting the picture, not for people's impressions of his work.
The picture of of God burning up the members of the church because they haven't been sealed to Joseph Smith turned me off on Denver Snuffer, and it made me question everything else I had read of his.

User avatar
Dylock
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 7
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by Dylock »

Since I've applied (in progress) what I've learned from Denver's words, I've had the spirit in my life stronger than ever before. I've had more love for my fellow man. I've known Christ more than I thought possible. I'm more at peace with questions that I've had.

The irony in all this, is that it was all available to me _before_ any of these books were even written. Surely he that seeketh, findeth.

User avatar
serenitylala
captain of 100
Posts: 755
Contact:

Re: Someone claims to have seen God

Post by serenitylala »

Gideon wrote:
serenitylala wrote:
Denver Snuffer isn't one of the best with the English language in terms of expressing himself, but he has told what he has seen. People can pray about it and receive their own witness, but that is there responsibility. He was only responsible for painting the picture, not for people's impressions of his work.
The picture of of God burning up the members of the church because they haven't been sealed to Joseph Smith turned me off on Denver Snuffer, and it made me question everything else I had read of his.

Heck, that would turn anyone off. :D

I assume the reference of the above scene was to the wheat and tares... specifically in relationship to those that are sealed up by the holy spirit of promise and those that are not, no matter if they had the temple ordinances performed in this life, if those ordinances are not sealed by the Spirit then they are not of force and the persons are considered tares.

During Joseph's time, the law of adoption was in full swing as dictated by the Lord. Revelations were given to Joseph as to whom was to be sealed to him and to those of the apostles. Brigham Young being sealed to Joseph. (father in son relationships and the like). So anyone that was sealed to Brigham Young by the same law of Adoption or by the law of plural marriage both work in this sense are therefore sealed to Joseph. And this travels true to all the sealings that spread outwards and down lines from Joseph and the all the saints he was sealed to and their posterity if the Holy Spirit of promise authorizes those sealings.

So what happens to a convert to the church that doesn't have such ancestry? A calling and election made sure begins the process and a "father" or "savior on mount zion" under the direction of Christ is provided and you are sealed to him, (whereas he is sealed to Christ) and there you effectively become one of Christ's children at the celestial level and become joint heirs with Him.

So the imagery was indicating more in a sense those that are not sealed to Christ. Because if you are sealed to Joseph then you are sealed to Christ. It would have worked the same if the man in Joseph's place was Adam or Abraham or Moses or some other dispensation head. Since Denver is from the dispensation that Joseph has the keys for, he saw Joseph and those not sealed to "him" were destroyed in all honesty because they were... well tares.

Also, there is another reference. Joseph once said that if people knew whom he really was they would seek his life. Well, that's because part of his keys dictates that he has the power to seal up to eternal life or to destroy (D&C 132).

The symbolism was there, the explanation was lacking.. which is okay, I suppose.

Post Reply