Law of tithing

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durangout
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by durangout »

Walden wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
sisterp wrote:Also, who determines what you need?
This is what a stewardship is all about. It is up to you to make the determination through careful study and prayer. So many in the church want a magic, one-size-fits-all formula that will help them live the gospel without the need for careful thought or the guidance of the Spirit.

We are stewards in so many areas....in our property, talents and time etc. Hopefully we are focused on being wise stewards, rather than simply engaging in a perfunctory performance of duty.
Exactly, aren't we all able to become Gods? I think a God is usually a wise steward. I believe to many people get caught up in their "perfunctory performance of duty" rather then actually having the faith to pay on their interest.

Please forgive me. I know it's my misunderstanding of your comment. I am understanding you to say it takes more faith to pay on 10% of increase (and therefore a better steward to God) which is a MUCH smaller amount than 10% of gross?

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durangout
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by durangout »

ithink wrote:
one4freedom wrote:
sisterp wrote:Also, who determines what you need? Some people think that health insurance is a need. However, being married 15 years and birthing and raising 6 kids all without ever having any, I know this is not a need. So, people paying on their profit annually, if they count the money they use for health insurance as a need, are they cheating the Lord?
I love that you asked this. I was asking myself the same thing the other day trying to understand what ithink is saying. My wife and I make fairly decent money. Paying 10% of our gross doesn't phase us. I actually feel like I would be a better steward if I had to work out my tithing based in a surplus. Today I write the check, and look at the remaining 90% as "mine" because I've given the Lord the 10% he asked for.

Another thing that has caused me to question our current practices in regards to tithing is the donation slip. I have a vague memory of somewhere in holy writ saying something to the effect of not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing... although I freely admit I could be making this stuff up, because anyone harboring such beliefs as i possess clearly doesn't read the scriptures. "but it's ok to record it because then you can claim it on your taxes..." How did the next part of that scripture go? They have their reward? Something along those lines. I'll have to dig my BoM out of storage and look that one up again.

Sometimes just for fun I like to put "matt 6:3" or "right hand" on the donation slip. My wife thinks I'm an idiot. I always agree with her.
Good for you, you have a golden heart. We have a very large family and things are very tight, and are frequently in the have not club. I have spoken with the SP and bishop together more than once on these matters. If anyone wishes, I will tell what spiritual experience I had when the SP told me how tithing worked, I will never forget it. I have not had the heart to tell the SP what actually happened, but I know I will tell him one day.

As for paying and getting tax back, your feelings I believe are true. Grab a copy of The Mansion by Henry Van Dyk. A great story illustrating the problem with people who expect to be paid twice, like when you pay tithing, file a return, then get all your money back.

When donate anything at all, I always pay anonymously, but I like your pen names better.
Not sure I'm really following what you are saying here. Would you be so kind as to explain what you are talking about? Thanks.

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by ithink »

durangout wrote: I am understanding you to say it takes more faith to pay on 10% of increase (and therefore a better steward to God) which is a MUCH smaller amount than 10% of gross?
I would say, which is more difficult: to do what you think you should do, or just do exactly what God has asked. I heard a story about Cain, who interpreted a commandment about how to sacrifice differently that was asked, and of course Moses smote the rock instead of just speaking to it. Both these things cost them dearly, and illustrate that when God commands, he expects us to obey, not modify and obey. Hence, it takes more faith to just do what you are asked, and not to do more, which is vanity.

Walden
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by Walden »

durangout wrote: Please forgive me. I know it's my misunderstanding of your comment. I am understanding you to say it takes more faith to pay on 10% of increase (and therefore a better steward to God) which is a MUCH smaller amount than 10% of gross?
I am. You have to trust the Spirit more. Rather then just saying, "Oh I make 2,000 a month, which is 24,000 a year, So I pay 2,400 annually". You must reason out in your head, on paper, or however you do it, exactly how much money you owe the Lord. I believe it to take more faith to pay this way, to trust that your are being a wise steward, and that your needs are really your needs, and that you are truly listening to the spirit. I believe if you pay this way you put more trust in God that he will help you make the right decision on how much tithing is a full tithing.

I also noticed you made "much" all caps. God doesn't need our money, God doesn't even need us "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

This life isn't truly about what we do. It is about who we follow, and how we follow them. Are we going to do EXACTLY what God asks EXACTLY as he tells us. Or are we not?

I hope I have explained this enough to clear it up.

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by ithink »

durangout wrote:
ithink wrote: I have spoken with the SP and bishop together more than once on these matters. If anyone wishes, I will tell what spiritual experience I had when the SP told me how tithing worked, I will never forget it. I have not had the heart to tell the SP what actually happened, but I know I will tell him one day.
Not sure I'm really following what you are saying here. Would you be so kind as to explain what you are talking about? Thanks.
A few months ago, when formally meeting to discuss tithing with my SP and bishop as we are discussing tithing here, the meeting came to a head where it could have terminated very badly. But I continued pushing on for further understanding. At stake was the doctrine that we are now taught, which is that you just "pay on your income ASAP", not on your interest annually, and no matter what your other responsibilities with your children as dependents, the rule was the same.

After demonstrating through this very lengthy conversation that such instruction was not Biblical, and after demonstrating that tithing as now taught is taught nowhere in the Canon, I was not refuted. I showed that a man with many kids could theoretically pay his tithing, but his family would starve.

I then enquired "is that fair"?

At this point, the SP said, "no, it's not fair".

I was stunned, but that was nothing compared to what was to come next. So I backtracked and said, pardon me, but did you say "not fair"?

He said, that is correct, it is "not fair".

I then could see. But to make sure, I said, to clarify: "What isn't fair"? He said: "The Law". I said, "The Law of Tithing"? He said "yes". I felt immobilized. I said, barely able to comprehend what was going on, and hardly believing my ears, I said: "So the Law of Tithing, instituted by Jesus Christ, is not fair? Is that correct?" To which he said ------- "That is correct".

At that very instant, the room began to close in on me. Instead of the tender promptings of the Holy Ghost which we are all familiar with, I experienced a real tunnel vision. Darkness gathered from the perimeter and left me staring at just the table in front until at this point, I could not see them anymore, sitting closely to my left and right. The closest thing I have ever experienced to this is if you have ever struck your head or have been struck and were knocked out, it was very similar, except at the point where it was all black it was as if I left my body, and watched myself pull my temple recommend out of my wallet, toss it on the table and walk out. It was literally a spiritual KO. I cannot describe the despair I felt at hearing these words "that is correct -- to the UNFAIRNESS of tithing". To think that Jesus Christ would authorize a system of religious taxation more onerous that the one instituted by the devil himself! Anyway, I came around, and exercising every particle of my being to NOT do what I had seen myself doing in some sort of "weird" vision, I remained seated to the point that when I could see again, I looked around and could barely believe I was still there. I yearned to walk away like I have never yearned for anything before. They were both staring at me intently, having had no idea what had just happened, but obviously curious as to what the heck was going on. It seemed to me that the event itself lasted several minutes, but in reality was probably just a few seconds. One of them then said: "Well, it was you who decided to have all those kids, wasn't it?" I said, "well I guess so" because at that point I knew I was done. And the meeting terminated, with me still in a daze.

I think after a lifetime in the church I know what love is, what charity is, what peace is, and what the truth is -- and what it is NOT. That day, I heard an affirmation of lies confirmed by the Holy Ghost as lies as he withdrew instantly at the false statement of what tithing was. I know that tithing is actually fair as it is in the canon, that it is man that make things unfair. I know that children are an heritage of the Lord, not some commodity to be measured as a burden but rather the fulfillment of our purpose here on earth!

To follow up, I will say this: Recently, I was the speaking companion of this SP to another city. Despite that previous experience, I was taught by the spirit that he was a good man. We now enjoy one another's company. He has a good heart, and means no harm. I was taught, in full sentences in my head, that the Lord was very aware of all these things that are going on. I listened that day as the SP taught the congregation that "he was glad to be a member of a church that was so well off". The topic he chose: tithing. The spirit would come and go as he spoke, and you could see that the congregation knew it too. It was quite disappointing, but strangely and interestingly, I was told to support him and sustain him, be friendly with him and love him, and not to blame him. But I was also given a green light to open my mouth, something I had shut for some time before all this happened.

So many times on this forum we think that we are speaking evil of the brethren: but I submit that speaking the truth boldly is always in favor of the brethren, of the true church, and of Christ, and in favor of the oppressed, the poor, and the downtrodden, who may not have the means to even appear at church meetings, let alone pay tithing they don't have to get a recommend to a temple.

I hope I never again experience the thick darkness that I experienced that day. I had been on the fence on this topic, but was pushed off, and I will never, on this point of doctrine, ever be moved again.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by NoGreaterLove »

And your SP was absolutely right it is not fair. Not fair to Christ. For he gave his very life that we might have what we have and we owe him everything, our whole being.
Sacrifice is not built upon the principle of fairness, it is built upon the principles of righteousness, charity, giving and not expecting a return for our gift. Christ gave the ultimate for a bunch of unworthy sinners. He asks at this time 1/10. Still not fair to him is it?
And that darkness you experienced was not from the Lord. You should have recognized that. I had that experience with my bishop once after he chastised me. JS experienced that same thing before he saw the the Father and the Son. Thank goodness, I saw it for what it was at the time. I also wanted to walk out, but I prayed earnestly for help and the Lord removed it slowly. It was a test.

The Lord will not speak to us through darkness. Darkness is of Satan. Did you feel any of these fruits at the time of darkness? If is was the Holy Ghost this would have been the feeling that would have come from your enlightenment.
Galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Squally
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by Squally »

Sometimes we get to feel the full wieght of our trials. That is part of the this life, feeling the wieght of this wicked world. Being righteous and obedient doesn't mean everything is wonderful all the time. Expect trial if you are doing things right and truly progressing. Part of our progress is experiencing opposition. We must be able to one day progress to overcome satan and all his armies. Ithink was blessed with insight, love, and understanding after this that has allowed him to show forth charity towards his stake president instead of judgement and offense. That is the fruit of the spirit. Being able to see others, as Christ sees, is fruit of the spirit. We need to be careful not to be blind to each others plight.

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Fairminded
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by Fairminded »

I always took increase to mean anywhere you saw a net gain. So your paycheck would all be increase, but if you were to sell a piece of property you'd already paid for and the amount you sold it for was equal to or less than what you paid, that wouldn't be increase. If you were paying mortgage on a house, the amount you paid in wouldn't be increase and so wouldn't be tithed, but when you sold the house the amount of the mortgage would count as increase (or to put it another way you could get a loan and either immediately pay tithing on it, or pay the loan off and pay tithing on the money used to pay it.)

Sounds a bit convoluted, but it feels right to me.
Last edited by Fairminded on January 11th, 2012, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raindrop
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by Raindrop »

NGL- In your impatient desire to respond I think you miss some important content of what others are saying.

jonesde
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by jonesde »

ithink wrote: I then could see. But to make sure, I said, to clarify: "What isn't fair"? He said: "The Law". I said, "The Law of Tithing"? He said "yes". I felt immobilized. I said, barely able to comprehend what was going on, and hardly believing my ears, I said: "So the Law of Tithing, instituted by Jesus Christ, is not fair? Is that correct?" To which he said ------- "That is correct".

At that very instant, the room began to close in on me. Instead of the tender promptings of the Holy Ghost which we are all familiar with, I experienced a real tunnel vision. Darkness gathered from the perimeter and left me staring at just the table in front until at this point, I could not see them anymore, sitting closely to my left and right. The closest thing I have ever experienced to this is if you have ever struck your head or have been struck and were knocked out, it was very similar, except at the point where it was all black it was as if I left my body, and watched myself pull my temple recommend out of my wallet, toss it on the table and walk out. It was literally a spiritual KO. I cannot describe the despair I felt at hearing these words "that is correct -- to the UNFAIRNESS of tithing". To think that Jesus Christ would authorize a system of religious taxation more onerous that the one instituted by the devil himself! Anyway, I came around, and exercising every particle of my being to NOT do what I had seen myself doing in some sort of "weird" vision, I remained seated to the point that when I could see again, I looked around and could barely believe I was still there. I yearned to walk away like I have never yearned for anything before. They were both staring at me intently, having had no idea what had just happened, but obviously curious as to what the heck was going on. It seemed to me that the event itself lasted several minutes, but in reality was probably just a few seconds. One of them then said: "Well, it was you who decided to have all those kids, wasn't it?" I said, "well I guess so" because at that point I knew I was done. And the meeting terminated, with me still in a daze.

I think after a lifetime in the church I know what love is, what charity is, what peace is, and what the truth is -- and what it is NOT. That day, I heard an affirmation of lies confirmed by the Holy Ghost as lies as he withdrew instantly at the false statement of what tithing was. I know that tithing is actually fair as it is in the canon, that it is man that make things unfair. I know that children are an heritage of the Lord, not some commodity to be measured as a burden but rather the fulfillment of our purpose here on earth!

...

So many times on this forum we think that we are speaking evil of the brethren: but I submit that speaking the truth boldly is always in favor of the brethren, of the true church, and of Christ, and in favor of the oppressed, the poor, and the downtrodden, who may not have the means to even appear at church meetings, let alone pay tithing they don't have to get a recommend to a temple.

I hope I never again experience the thick darkness that I experienced that day. I had been on the fence on this topic, but was pushed off, and I will never, on this point of doctrine, ever be moved again.
I'm surprised that no one brought up the Church Welfare system, I guess I always thought that was a pretty standard part of tithing versus survival debates.

As I understand it the common response to those who question whether or not to pay tithing because of insufficient earnings for their needs is that they should pay tithing on their income as normal, and request help through the Bishop to meet the extra need, especially when children are involved.

I've certainly experienced a lack of empathy from Church leaders, especially local leaders. However, there really are answers in the gospel for pretty much everything and the weaknesses and issues are clearly with the people in the Church and their misunderstandings of the doctrine, and not with the doctrine itself.

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by ithink »

NoGreaterLove wrote:And your SP was absolutely right it is not fair. Not fair to Christ.
Sorry, but that is not what he meant at all. He meant it was fairer for the rich guy, that the law of tithing is a form of persecution to the poor.
NoGreaterLove wrote:The Lord will not speak to us through darkness. Darkness is of Satan. Did you feel any of these fruits at the time of darkness? If is was the Holy Ghost this would have been the feeling that would have come from your enlightenment.
I said it, but you have pointed it out. If you are being told something that is wrong, do you think the Holy Ghost will warm your bosom?

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

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Squally wrote:Ithink was blessed with insight, love, and understanding after this that has allowed him to show forth charity towards his stake president instead of judgement and offense. That is the fruit of the spirit. Being able to see others, as Christ sees, is fruit of the spirit. We need to be careful not to be blind to each others plight.
Well said, that is how I feel. I was also led to understand that this would be fixed in the future, but that the SP was not the man to do it. That was someone else's job. Those two days were surreal (about 3 months apart).
Last edited by ithink on January 11th, 2012, 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

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jonesde wrote:As I understand it the common response to those who question whether or not to pay tithing because of insufficient earnings for their needs is that they should pay tithing on their income as normal, and request help through the Bishop to meet the extra need, especially when children are involved.
Pay tithing and then go begging for food? Brutal.

jonesde
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by jonesde »

ithink wrote:
jonesde wrote:As I understand it the common response to those who question whether or not to pay tithing because of insufficient earnings for their needs is that they should pay tithing on their income as normal, and request help through the Bishop to meet the extra need, especially when children are involved.
Pay tithing and then go begging for food? Brutal.
Perhaps humbling in that it requires some humility to ask for help, but brutal... not at all. In fact, if someone responds to such a circumstance by faithfully paying tithing and then asking for help it will help them develop the Christ-like attributes of faith and humility, and eventually gratitude and love.

It sounds like a beautiful plan to me.

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Re: Law of tithing

Post by loquaciousmomma »

ithink wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:And your SP was absolutely right it is not fair. Not fair to Christ.
Sorry, but that is not what he meant at all. He meant it was fairer for the rich guy, that the law of tithing is a form of persecution to the poor.
NoGreaterLove wrote:The Lord will not speak to us through darkness. Darkness is of Satan. Did you feel any of these fruits at the time of darkness? If is was the Holy Ghost this would have been the feeling that would have come from your enlightenment.
I said it, but you have pointed it out. If you are being told something that is wrong, do you think the Holy Ghost will warm your bosom?
Actually, I see it very differently, ithink. I see the rich as getting the short end of the stick. That is why the Lord said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The rich have a much greater challenge. The poor have a greater opportunity to sacrifice than the rich in paying tithing.

Although, ten percent is ten percent. The rate doesn't change for the poor. The only reason people complain is that paying ten percent is harder for a person on an insufficient income than it is for a person with more than enough for their needs. Nevertheless, the rate is the same.

The wealthy are required by the Lord to share their excess with those they know have needs. They are expected to pay a generous fast offering and support worthy causes. This is a direct challenge to the basic desire to retain what we earn. We expect to enjoy the fruits of our labors.

There is no persecution of the poor in the law of tithing, only an opportunity to trust the Lord. Even as the widow was required to feed Elijah of the last food in her possession, the poor are asked to trust the Lord to provide for them as they sacrifice what little they have to obey the law.

Was the widow of Zerephath persecuted?

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

Post by ithink »

jonesde wrote:
ithink wrote:
jonesde wrote:As I understand it the common response to those who question whether or not to pay tithing because of insufficient earnings for their needs is that they should pay tithing on their income as normal, and request help through the Bishop to meet the extra need, especially when children are involved.
Pay tithing and then go begging for food? Brutal.
Perhaps humbling in that it requires some humility to ask for help, but brutal... not at all. In fact, if someone responds to such a circumstance by faithfully paying tithing and then asking for help it will help them develop the Christ-like attributes of faith and humility, and eventually gratitude and love.

It sounds like a beautiful plan to me.
Will it pay your mortgage? No. Will it just give you what you need (to him that would ask of thee, turn him not away). No. What the church received for nothing, you will have to earn back. Does the church pay for music lessons? No. But they like the music that our kids bring to church, which music lessons produce, which cost money.

Real humility is just doing what Christ has asked.

Reminds me of the song "I did it -- my way". Who sung that (first), oh yea, it was Cain. Unfortunately, the precedent has been set. It continues to this day.
They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of me. Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things. And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord. And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were frighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees. Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil? Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

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Re: Law of tithing

Post by NoGreaterLove »

Fairminded wrote:I always took increase to mean anywhere you saw a net gain. So your paycheck would all be increase, but if you were to sell a piece of property you'd already paid for and the amount you sold it for was equal to or less than what you paid, that wouldn't be increase. If you were paying mortgage on a house, the amount you paid in wouldn't be increase and so wouldn't be tithed, but when you sold the house the amount of the mortgage would count as increase (or to put it another way you could get a loan and either immediately pay tithing on it, or pay the loan off and pay tithing on the money used to pay it.)

Sounds a bit convoluted, but it feels right to me.
Just a thought on the mortgage. Was not every day that you lived in the house worth value? So shouldn't part of the mortgage you pay be compensation for that value?

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Law of tithing

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Raindrop wrote:NGL- In your impatient desire to respond I think you miss some important content of what others are saying.
Raindrop in your impatient desire to respond I think you missed that I was addressing IThink directly and his situation.

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Re: Law of tithing

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ithink wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:And your SP was absolutely right it is not fair. Not fair to Christ.
Sorry, but that is not what he meant at all. He meant it was fairer for the rich guy, that the law of tithing is a form of persecution to the poor.
NoGreaterLove wrote:The Lord will not speak to us through darkness. Darkness is of Satan. Did you feel any of these fruits at the time of darkness? If is was the Holy Ghost this would have been the feeling that would have come from your enlightenment.
I said it, but you have pointed it out. If you are being told something that is wrong, do you think the Holy Ghost will warm your bosom?
From the way you described your reaction and what you were seeing during this darkness, you were ready to throw away you right to go through the temple. Why would HF tell you to do that? Darkness is not of the Lord. You described it at darkness. That should be your answer to yourself.

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Re: Law of tithing

Post by NoGreaterLove »

ithink wrote:
jonesde wrote:As I understand it the common response to those who question whether or not to pay tithing because of insufficient earnings for their needs is that they should pay tithing on their income as normal, and request help through the Bishop to meet the extra need, especially when children are involved.
Pay tithing and then go begging for food? Brutal.
widows mite

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ithink
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Re: Law of tithing

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loquaciousmomma wrote:Actually, I see it very differently, ithink. I see the rich as getting the short end of the stick. That is why the Lord said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The rich have a much greater challenge. The poor have a greater opportunity to sacrifice than the rich in paying tithing.
Sorry. Usually when you dispute something someone has written you are left to interpret what was meant. But I am the author, and what you are saying is not what was meant. The statement was to mean that the poor were to be persecuted with tithing. Of that there is no doubt.
loquaciousmomma wrote:Although, ten percent is ten percent. The rate doesn't change for the poor. The only reason people complain is that paying ten percent is harder for a person on an insufficient income than it is for a person with more than enough for their needs. Nevertheless, the rate is the same.
Right, and what is 10% of zero?
loquaciousmomma wrote:The wealthy are required by the Lord to share their excess with those they know have needs. They are expected to pay a generous fast offering and support worthy causes. This is a direct challenge to the basic desire to retain what we earn. We expect to enjoy the fruits of our labors.
Really? Who paid 10x more fast offering in my ward than anyone else for at least one year? I did. And it was a mistake.
loquaciousmomma wrote:There is no persecution of the poor in the law of tithing, only an opportunity to trust the Lord. Even as the widow was required to feed Elijah of the last food in her possession, the poor are asked to trust the Lord to provide for them as they sacrifice what little they have to obey the law.
The injunction is to pay 10%, not the last drop of oil in your lamp. The injunction today is "require not miracles". And that was not tithing, it was to her her last act. I performed my last act once, and then the bailiff came to the door. So yes, you are having a conversation with someone who has literally, actually, given everything but a few bucks he had on more than one occasion. I walked the walk, and the Lord had to step in and say, "stand down soldier"! So how could I be so deceived? Well, I was just paying on my "income".
loquaciousmomma wrote:Was the widow of Zerephath persecuted?
I'm not aware she was paying tithing, was she? Like I said, I've been in her boots and the cruse failed for me like it failed for Cain when he failed to just do exactly what he was asked -- not one farthing more, not one farthing less. That is the true test of faith.

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Re: Law of tithing

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Will it pay your mortgage? No.
What about faith my friend?

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Re: Law of tithing

Post by NoGreaterLove »

Really? Who paid 10x more fast offering in my ward than anyone else for at least one year? I did. And it was a mistake
How did you know that and why are you comparing yourself to others? Were you running faster than you should have? You seem so bitter about money and the church.

loquaciousmomma
captain of 100
Posts: 743

Re: Law of tithing

Post by loquaciousmomma »

ithink, you clearly don't believe that the Lord blesses those who pay a full and honest tithe.
ithink wrote: Will it pay your mortgage? No. Will it just give you what you need (to him that would ask of thee, turn him not away). No. What the church received for nothing, you will have to earn back. Does the church pay for music lessons? No. But they like the music that our kids bring to church, which music lessons produce, which cost money.

Real humility is just doing what Christ has asked.

Reminds me of the song "I did it -- my way". Who sung that (first), oh yea, it was Cain. Unfortunately, the precedent has been set. It continues to this day.
You also seem to separate the church from the Lord. I believe that I am giving the Lord my tithe money, not the church. ('Wherein have we robbed thee?' Thee, being the Savior.)

The law of tithing, and all other principles of the gospel are predicated on this one, most basic doctrine of the gospel. And that is this, that the Lord chose to restore His priesthood to the earth through Joseph Smith, so the church that he established is indeed the means of shepherding his disciples along the path to the celestial kingdom, if they are willing to go. If this is indeed true, then this church has the authority to act and speak on behalf of the Lord. That means that the ordinances performed along with the sacrifices required of the members such as tithing and service, are acceptable to the Lord, provided they are done in the proper way and spirit.

Thus, I fully expect paying my tithing to result in the ability to pay my mortgage, secure music lessons for my kids, and even money to fix a leaky roof, should the Lord see fit to bless me with those things.

And that is the key. The Lord blesses us with what He knows we need. Unfortunately, what we think we need, and what He thinks we need, are two different things. Sometimes he wants us to struggle in order to develop a quality that we are lacking.

It requires faith in the entire plan of salvation and the purpose of opposition in our lives to truly understand.

Finding fault with the church only interferes with developing this faith.

loquaciousmomma
captain of 100
Posts: 743

Re: Law of tithing

Post by loquaciousmomma »

ithink wrote:
loquaciousmomma wrote:Actually, I see it very differently, ithink. I see the rich as getting the short end of the stick. That is why the Lord said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The rich have a much greater challenge. The poor have a greater opportunity to sacrifice than the rich in paying tithing.
Sorry. Usually when you dispute something someone has written you are left to interpret what was meant. But I am the author, and what you are saying is not what was meant. The statement was to mean that the poor were to be persecuted with tithing. Of that there is no doubt.

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you please clarify? I simply meant that your assertion that tithing is unfair to the poor is incorrect. I see it as unfair to the rich, as they have to go above and beyond paying a full tithe to satisfy the requirements of the Lord. So, in a sense, their required offering to the Lord actually exceeds ten percent.
loquaciousmomma wrote:Although, ten percent is ten percent. The rate doesn't change for the poor. The only reason people complain is that paying ten percent is harder for a person on an insufficient income than it is for a person with more than enough for their needs. Nevertheless, the rate is the same.
Right, and what is 10% of zero?

It is zero, so no tithing is required. But the Lord requires the heart of such a person to be willing to pay tithing when they resume earning.
loquaciousmomma wrote:The wealthy are required by the Lord to share their excess with those they know have needs. They are expected to pay a generous fast offering and support worthy causes. This is a direct challenge to the basic desire to retain what we earn. We expect to enjoy the fruits of our labors.
Really? Who paid 10x more fast offering in my ward than anyone else for at least one year? I did. And it was a mistake.

I did not say that the wealthy actually pay this much, I am saying that they are expected to by the Lord. I am saying that they are held to a higher standard, for to whom much is given, much is required.

loquaciousmomma wrote:There is no persecution of the poor in the law of tithing, only an opportunity to trust the Lord. Even as the widow was required to feed Elijah of the last food in her possession, the poor are asked to trust the Lord to provide for them as they sacrifice what little they have to obey the law.
The injunction is to pay 10%, not the last drop of oil in your lamp. The injunction today is "require not miracles". And that was not tithing, it was to her her last act. I performed my last act once, and then the bailiff came to the door. So yes, you are having a conversation with someone who has literally, actually, given everything but a few bucks he had on more than one occasion. I walked the walk, and the Lord had to step in and say, "stand down soldier"! So how could I be so deceived? Well, I was just paying on my "income".

Actually, the requirement is to pay the last drop of oil, if you find yourself in that circumstance. I have never heard such a thing as "require not miracles". I would welcome a link to the source of that quote.

I am very sorry that you have had such difficulties. I have had similar challenges with tithing. Tithing is an act of faith. Sometimes the Lord tests our dedication to the covenants we have made by giving us incredible challenges in keeping them. It doesn't mean we have misinterpreted the covenant, but rather that we are walking on the water and must keep our eyes on the Savior in order to keep from sinking into the sea.


loquaciousmomma wrote:Was the widow of Zerephath persecuted?
I'm not aware she was paying tithing, was she? Like I said, I've been in her boots and the cruse failed for me like it failed for Cain when he failed to just do exactly what he was asked -- not one farthing more, not one farthing less. That is the true test of faith.

The widow of Zerephath story is relevant because she was being required by the Lord to make incredible sacrifice, just as the worthy poor are in the payment of their tithes. I do not know your situation, that is between you and the Lord.

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