Law of tithing

[Ribbit]

7cylon7: Truth be told, tithing is on the gross income. Many Apostle have stated such.

I have never heard any Apostles state that. I will have to search for quotes.

7cylon7: Should you pay on net then yes you need to pay tithe on tax refund if you pay on gross you don't need to pay a tithe on your tax refund because you already paid it. If you paid on gross and then paid again on tax REFUND (which is not a refund at all, it getting your own money back that you earned.) you would be paying double tithing.

Makes sense.

7cylon7: You know it was not always that way.

I actually did not know it was not always that way.

7cylon7: I am not saying you won't make it to the celestial kingdom, net payers will IMO, but you won't make it to the highest degree, IMO.

Wow! I am appalled at your opinions there. God will be the one to judge justly as to who makes whatever kingdom and which degree of the celestial kingdom and thank goodness for that!

[Ribbit]

I can only speak for why I pay tithing the way I do.
I pay on every increase I have. That would be gifts, total income, health, service to my family, anything that I have today that I did not have yesterday. I have a new road to drive on down the street. I have a new plumbing system to use to flush my toilets. I have a school for my daughter to go to. I have the police to protect me. I have the armed forces to watch over my country. I have leaders to lead my nation.
It does not matter if some of those things have become corrupted. I am not going to make a decision to pay tithing on only the things I like and then disregard the rest.
How do I pay tithing? Cash, service, time, talents, means.

Thanks for sharing! I never thought of things in that way.

Many people feel the government is corrupt in some ways. Who knows were all of our taxes really go everytime. Some taxes fund practices against Church standards. But I have never thought in the way of "I am only going to pay tithing on the things I like and disregard the rest"! How can you pay tithing on what you like and disregard the rest? That is not possible since we aren't the ones deciding where our tithing goes. You either pay full or part tithing. Either way the money goes to causes that we aren't deciding and perhaps what we don't necessarily like. Deciding to pay on what I like and don't like reminds me of donating to various organizations or people we may support such as political canidates or say the ASPCA. But then I am not obligated to pay a certain percent or with certain frequency to those people or organizations like I am olbligated with the church.

I do support the Church in whatever ways they use my tithing. It makes sense to pay tithing on gross. I trust the Church in using my money for righteous causes vs. the government not always taking a part of my pay-check for righteous causes. We are told to pay tithing on total income which is gross, before taxes. So I should make sure I am giving the Church as much as possible for their righteous causes with my tithing. That never clicked though until now.

I am in my early 20's and always thought of total income as what your paycheck says, not what your paystub says. It is also very annoying that pay stubs come so late. I don't even know what my gross pay was until much later. My work distributes paystubs at snail pace. I won't get paystubs sometimes until 2 months after the paydate.

[Walden]

Our prophet and only our prophet has the authority to interpret scripture. He and only he has the authority to speak for the Lord. He does not have to say, "thus saith the Lord" to do so. Neither Moses nor Joseph used that terminology much. The D&C, bible, B0M do not use that term much and those were written by prophets.

Not necessarily. Many of those people who we now call "prophets" where just normal men who where called of God. They held No authority, no office, no power other then that which was given them. Also Truth is given to any one REGARDLESS of what position they hold.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
"For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion."
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"
The prophet is the only person able to receive revelation for the whole church. And to act as Moses. (see section 107)
And we are not bound to follow anything they say that is contrary to what the scriptures teach us. (see the quotes ithink posted)
Is or is not the fullness of the gospel contained in the standard works?

Do you think we should just get rid of the modern day prophets and apostles and just go with the scriptures then? That seems to be what some are saying? I mean, we have the scriptures, why do we need anything else? Just open up the books and you can govern yourselves. I mean do we really need prophets, what purpose do they serve anyway? Come on guys. What are you really saying?

No, if you have no scriptures you end up like the Mulekites (the people who founded the city of Zarahemla). If you have prophets and the scriptures they should be in agreement. If they are not then there is a problem, and a "general assembly"(see section 107:32) should be convened to learn the truth. Even then the nephites had both, Prophets and records and look where they ended up. What do you think we are saying, other then what we have already said? or do you not see what we are saying?

Respectfully,
Walden

[ithink]

I can only speak for why I pay tithing the way I do.
I pay on every increase I have. That would be gifts, total income, health, service to my family, anything that I have today that I did not have yesterday. I have a new road to drive on down the street. I have a new plumbing system to use to flush my toilets. I have a school for my daughter to go to. I have the police to protect me. I have the armed forces to watch over my country. I have leaders to lead my nation.
It does not matter if some of those things have become corrupted. I am not going to make a decision to pay tithing on only the things I like and then disregard the rest.
How do I pay tithing? Cash, service, time, talents, means.

Thanks for sharing! I never thought of things in that way.

Many people feel the government is corrupt in some ways. Who knows were all of our taxes really go everytime. Some taxes fund practices against Church standards. But I have never thought in the way of "I am only going to pay tithing on the things I like and disregard the rest"! How can you pay tithing on what you like and disregard the rest? That is not possible since we aren't the ones deciding where our tithing goes. You either pay full or part tithing. Either way the money goes to causes that we aren't deciding and perhaps what we don't necessarily like. Deciding to pay on what I like and don't like reminds me of donating to various organizations or people we may support such as political canidates or say the ASPCA. But then I am not obligated to pay a certain percent or with certain frequency to those people or organizations like I am olbligated with the church.

I do support the Church in whatever ways they use my tithing. It makes sense to pay tithing on gross. I trust the Church in using my money for righteous causes vs. the government not always taking a part of my pay-check for righteous causes. We are told to pay tithing on total income which is gross, before taxes. So I should make sure I am giving the Church as much as possible for their righteous causes with my tithing. That never clicked though until now.

I am in my early 20's and always thought of total income as what your paycheck says, not what your paystub says. It is also very annoying that pay stubs come so late. I don't even know what my gross pay was until much later. My work distributes paystubs at snail pace. I won't get paystubs sometimes until 2 months after the paydate.

Welcome Ribbit.

If you aren't married, you should probably pay on nearly what you are now. But later, when you marry and have 7 or 8 kids, you should pay as the scriptures direct. I tried running faster than I had strength because of some bad advice, and it went poorly. Just do what God has indicated in the scriptures and don't try to impress anyone but him by paying no more and no less than exactly 1/10th of your "interest annually".

[ithink]

The prophet is the only person able to receive revelation for the whole church. And to act as Moses. (see section 107)
And we are not bound to follow anything they say that is contrary to what the scriptures teach us. (see the quotes ithink posted)

Good points Walden, and here is where it get's weird. Suppose the first presidency releases a letter with instructions that we are to follow which appear contradict what the canon teaches. All fine I guess for those who wish to follow it, but the irony is these same men called of God have the authority to modify or add the scriptures if they wish. They can modify the canon. So to me it's not about that, because I sustain them to do that. I mean, if the word in 107 isn't "interest" but instead is "income", then have at it and change it in the D&C! But to fail to do that, and instead go about modifying the english language with a letter instead? Huh? Wouldn't it be easier to do the former? You would think so, but wait! Every other scripture that supports the concept of "income" and not "interest" would also need modification or this new change would need to be rejected, as there are no scriptures supporting a "tithing on income" model (and certainly none for net or gross payers). None. I've looked, there are none. Lots to support tithing on interest though. Tons of em.

And of course, at least one scripture where Christ refers to the "tithing on all" people as "pharisees".

[NoGreaterLove]

It is obvious that LDSFF has been hijacked by a group who holds ideals that are contrary to the teachings of our Savior. Each and every statement made by them supports anarchy within the church which is meant to destroy it. Each statement is easily answered with the words of Christ. However, there comes a point when it is obvious what the goal is of this group (or one individual with numerous screen names).
I should have listened earlier to my own advise. Have the thread folks or folk.

[reese]

It is obvious that LDSFF has been hijacked by a group who holds ideals that are contrary to the teachings of our Savior. Each and every statement made by them supports anarchy within the church which is meant to destroy it. Each statement is easily answered with the words of Christ. However, there comes a point when it is obvious what the goal is of this group (or one individual with numerous screen names).
I should have listened earlier to my own advise. Have the thread folks or folk.

NGL, I'm not trying to be rude here, I am honostly curious which words of Christ will easily answer these statements made here:

men called of God have the authority to modify or add the scriptures if they wish. They can modify the canon. So to me it's not about that, because I sustain them to do that. I mean, if the word in 107 isn't "interest" but instead is "income", then have at it and change it in the D&C! But to fail to do that, and instead go about modifying the english language with a letter instead? Huh? Wouldn't it be easier to do the former? You would think so, but wait! Every other scripture that supports the concept of "income" and not "interest" would also need modification or this new change would need to be rejected, as there are no scriptures supporting a "tithing on income" model (and certainly none for net or gross payers). None. I've looked, there are none. Lots to support tithing on interest though. Tons of em.

And of course, at least one scripture where Christ refers to the "tithing on all" people as "pharisees".

I know as far I am concerned, my questions arise because I don't see how these things are easily justifyed by Christ.

[Walden]

It is obvious that LDSFF has been hijacked by a group who holds ideals that are contrary to the teachings of our Savior. Each and every statement made by them supports anarchy within the church which is meant to destroy it. Each statement is easily answered with the words of Christ. However, there comes a point when it is obvious what the goal is of this group (or one individual with numerous screen names).
I should have listened earlier to my own advise. Have the thread folks or folk.

A have seen no scriptures condeming what we say. In fact I have seen scriptures that condemn what you say. If what we are talking about is anarchy then perhaps we have a different definition of it then you do. Do you forget who crucified Christ? Do you forget the Zoramites? Do you forget the word of Isaiah? Do you forget the words of Christ himself?

[Zkulptor]

If the church publicized how the tithes were used, it would cause no end of problems. People who think too much would start asking myriad questions. Magnifying glasses would come out. Endless scandals and controversies would begin. Everyone would think the tithes should be spent a different way. People would want a democracy to vote on it, and then a king. Gadiantons would take full control of the church. As it is, there is no power wielded except by those God calls. I think this is the wisest coarse.

They used to publish it and it caused no problems at all. Why would it now be different?

Because probably The Lord said so, and that should be enough for you.
But you've made up your mind so there's no point in discussing anything with you brother, to you it seems the Church is going to hell and that is that.... #-o

[durangout]

I know I'm going to hate myself "in the morning" for asking this question, but I'm going to do it anyway:

Whoever the person with the multiple personalities is or anyone else who advocates paying on "increase / interest" vs on gross income, would you mind defining what "increase / interest" is?

Thanks so much.

[Walden]

I know I'm going to hate myself "in the morning" for asking this question, but I'm going to do it anyway:

Whoever the person with the multiple personalities is or anyone else who advocates paying on "increase / interest" vs on gross income, would you mind defining what "increase / interest" is?

Thanks so much.

Anything "beyond that which you have need".

Example: I am newly married and my wife and I make 25,000 a year. Our housing, food, cloths, medical and other needs cost us 14,000 a year. At the end of the year we would be left with 11,000, so we would pay 1,100 tithing

Example 2: I am married and have 4 kids. I make 36,000 a year, but it costs me 34,000 just to give my family the needs they require. At the end of the year I would be left with 2,000. So I would only pay 200 tithing.

Does that make sense? I hope I did a good job explaining it. Another word to explain it and a word that is synonymous with "interest" is "profits".

And no ithink or thinker or anyone else is not me. I am Walden.

[sisterp]

So, by this theory, the nicer house I live in, and the nicer car I drive, the less I HAVE TO pay to the Lord?

[sisterp]

Also, who determines what you need? Some people think that health insurance is a need. However, being married 15 years and birthing and raising 6 kids all without ever having any, I know this is not a need. So, people paying on their profit annually, if they count the money they use for health insurance as a need, are they cheating the Lord?

[sisterp]

In Paul it says "my God shall supply all your need". To me, I take this at face value. I give the Lord back 10% of all the money He blesses me with (a tithe), and then I have faith that He will provide all my needs. I have seen this practice produce undeniable miracles in my life, and that, along with the counsel of the living prophets and apostles that make this church the ONLY LIVING church on the earth, is good enough for me.

[Walden]

So, by this theory, the nicer house I live in, and the nicer car I drive, the less I HAVE TO pay to the Lord?

No. If your house is over the top you should tithe it. But I'f you are living on the bare minimum (youe basic needs) then I offer that you needn't pay tithing on it.

[Walden]

Also, who determines what you need? Some people think that health insurance is a need. However, being married 15 years and birthing and raising 6 kids all without ever having any, I know this is not a need. So, people paying on their profit annually, if they count the money they use for health insurance as a need, are they cheating the Lord?

note they key word you use here "YOU". For you it is not a need, but what if I had some form of disablilty, and it cost me over tons of money each year, it would certainly be a need for me. Every person has different needs, for me I need to have a musical instrument (but if more then one I would tithe it), I need to read, I need to travel to and from work, I need to eat, I need a place to sleep. Every person has different needs, and is up to them to decide what there needs are and what they should tithe. Remember that everyones salvation is between them and Christ. One to one.

[Walden]

In Paul it says "my God shall supply all your need". To me, I take this at face value. I give the Lord back 10% of all the money He blesses me with (a tithe), and then I have faith that He will provide all my needs. I have seen this practice produce undeniable miracles in my life, and that, along with the counsel of the living prophets and apostles that make this church the ONLY LIVING church on the earth, is good enough for me.

I do not deny it. But you are not paying the way Abraham payed "And Abraham gave tithes of all he possessed, BEYOND THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED"
It is very clear to me what that means.

[patriotsaint]

Also, who determines what you need?

This is what a stewardship is all about. It is up to you to make the determination through careful study and prayer. So many in the church want a magic, one-size-fits-all formula that will help them live the gospel without the need for careful thought or the guidance of the Spirit.

We are stewards in so many areas....in our property, talents and time etc. Hopefully we are focused on being wise stewards, rather than simply engaging in a perfunctory performance of duty.

[Steve Clark]

Also, who determines what you need? Some people think that health insurance is a need. However, being married 15 years and birthing and raising 6 kids all without ever having any, I know this is not a need. So, people paying on their profit annually, if they count the money they use for health insurance as a need, are they cheating the Lord?

I love that you asked this. I was asking myself the same thing the other day trying to understand what ithink is saying. My wife and I make fairly decent money. Paying 10% of our gross doesn't phase us. I actually feel like I would be a better steward if I had to work out my tithing based in a surplus. Today I write the check, and look at the remaining 90% as "mine" because I've given the Lord the 10% he asked for.

Another thing that has caused me to question our current practices in regards to tithing is the donation slip. I have a vague memory of somewhere in holy writ saying something to the effect of not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing... although I freely admit I could be making this stuff up, because anyone harboring such beliefs as i possess clearly doesn't read the scriptures. "but it's ok to record it because then you can claim it on your taxes..." How did the next part of that scripture go? They have their reward? Something along those lines. I'll have to dig my BoM out of storage and look that one up again.

Sometimes just for fun I like to put "matt 6:3" or "right hand" on the donation slip. My wife thinks I'm an idiot. I always agree with her.

[durangout]

Since there was really only one response to my request asking for a definition of "increase" I will assume all those that pay "tithing" based upon increase pay this way?

Anybody else want to give me a definition of increase before I keel over from shock?

[Steve Clark]

No, I believe it satisfies what you are looking for. Proceed with the shock if you feel so inclined.

[sisterp]

Right now, paying 10% of my income comes out to about $500 a month, give or take. 10% of my "interest" as described above would be about $54 (after adding that $500 back into my budget under surplus). I think I'll stick with the first number, and err on the side of giving back to the Lord more than he has asked for.... instead of erring on the side of giving him WAY less.

[ithink]

Since there was really only one response to my request asking for a definition of "increase" I will assume all those that pay "tithing" based upon increase pay this way?

Anybody else want to give me a definition of increase before I keel over from shock?

Abrams definition was "more than that which he had need". Times and Seasons stated this is how early bishops helped people pay tithing, on their annual interest.

[Walden]

Also, who determines what you need?

This is what a stewardship is all about. It is up to you to make the determination through careful study and prayer. So many in the church want a magic, one-size-fits-all formula that will help them live the gospel without the need for careful thought or the guidance of the Spirit.

We are stewards in so many areas....in our property, talents and time etc. Hopefully we are focused on being wise stewards, rather than simply engaging in a perfunctory performance of duty.

Exactly, aren't we all able to become Gods? I think a God is usually a wise steward. I believe to many people get caught up in their "perfunctory performance of duty" rather then actually having the faith to pay on their interest.

[ithink]

Also, who determines what you need? Some people think that health insurance is a need. However, being married 15 years and birthing and raising 6 kids all without ever having any, I know this is not a need. So, people paying on their profit annually, if they count the money they use for health insurance as a need, are they cheating the Lord?

I love that you asked this. I was asking myself the same thing the other day trying to understand what ithink is saying. My wife and I make fairly decent money. Paying 10% of our gross doesn't phase us. I actually feel like I would be a better steward if I had to work out my tithing based in a surplus. Today I write the check, and look at the remaining 90% as "mine" because I've given the Lord the 10% he asked for.

Another thing that has caused me to question our current practices in regards to tithing is the donation slip. I have a vague memory of somewhere in holy writ saying something to the effect of not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing... although I freely admit I could be making this stuff up, because anyone harboring such beliefs as i possess clearly doesn't read the scriptures. "but it's ok to record it because then you can claim it on your taxes..." How did the next part of that scripture go? They have their reward? Something along those lines. I'll have to dig my BoM out of storage and look that one up again.

Sometimes just for fun I like to put "matt 6:3" or "right hand" on the donation slip. My wife thinks I'm an idiot. I always agree with her.

Good for you, you have a golden heart. We have a very large family and things are very tight, and are frequently in the have not club. I have spoken with the SP and bishop together more than once on these matters. If anyone wishes, I will tell what spiritual experience I had when the SP told me how tithing worked, I will never forget it. I have not had the heart to tell the SP what actually happened, but I know I will tell him one day.

As for paying and getting tax back, your feelings I believe are true. Grab a copy of The Mansion by Henry Van Dyk. A great story illustrating the problem with people who expect to be paid twice, like when you pay tithing, file a return, then get all your money back.

When donate anything at all, I always pay anonymously, but I like your pen names better.