Law of tithing

[NoGreaterLove]

I always understood tithing paid based on net pay. I only pay tithing on my net pay. I talked to another member who paid tithing on his gross pay. Why pay tithing on what the goverment takes from you? Then there are tax refunds. Do you pay tithing on your tax refund? Perhaps paying tithing on tax refund could depend on whether someone pays tithing based on gross or net pay. I never have paid tithing on my tax refund.

I can only speak for why I pay tithing the way I do.
I pay on every increase I have. That would be gifts, total income, health, service to my family, anything that I have today that I did not have yesterday. I have a new road to drive on down the street. I have a new plumbing system to use to flush my toilets. I have a school for my daughter to go to. I have the police to protect me. I have the armed forces to watch over my country. I have leaders to lead my nation.
It does not matter if some of those things have become corrupted. I am not going to make a decision to pay tithing on only the things I like and then disregard the rest.
How do I pay tithing? Cash, service, time, talents, means.

[NoGreaterLove]

Tithing is an all encompassing thing. If we can not live the lesser law of tithing then do we really think we are ready to live the law of consecration the right way? How can we even begin to live the law of consecration if we are not living the perfect law of tithing? For consecration will encompass all the law of tithing and then some.

[Mark]

Since a liquidity crisis, in which bank balances hit a low level, the church stopped giving its members summary financial reports.

WHY?

Is God (who is LIGHT/TRUTH) about keeping things hidden, dark and secret?

What year did they insist we just trust them? I can't remember. There is another organization that won't release it's reports either, it's the ... oh yea -- the FED! What company to keep!

Is this some kind of tag team cerebral hemorrhaging party? ) You two thinkers are going to think your way straight to my turkey BBQ around the infernal pit if you're not careful. Come on guys cut the crap and stop with the innuendo and slanderous tones concerning the Lords church. Stick with protesting at the pageants and temple square and spare us your juvenile games here. Abide by the forum rules or take a hike.

[NoGreaterLove]

Is this some kind of tag team cerebral hemorrhaging party? ) You two thinkers are going to think your way straight to my turkey BBQ around the infernal pit if you're not careful. Come on guys cut the crap and stop with the innuendo and slanderous tones concerning the Lords church. Stick with protesting at the pageants and temple square and spare us your juvenile games here. Abide by the forum rules or take a hike.

You ever get the feeling there are about four screen names with the same IP address and the same fingers doing the typing, having a conversation with themselves?

[natasha]

I woke up with a sore and fat lip this a.m. (probably a spider bite)...so please stop giving me a good laugh...it hurts a little bit! I love you both, Mark and NGL! And along with Explorer, who I recently nabbed for my wagon train...I'm grabbing you two, too!

[Thinker]

Since a liquidity crisis, in which bank balances hit a low level, the church stopped giving its members summary financial reports.

WHY?

Is God (who is LIGHT/TRUTH) about keeping things hidden, dark and secret?

And you are implying what? That the church is full of secret combinations?

I'm not implying it.
It is public knowledge that the church keeps finances secret.
It is personal knowledge - have you ever seen a spread sheet, budget or any financial document explaining exactly how sacred tithes are spent?
No. Neither have I.
Because it's secret.

[Thinker]

Mark,
It's the adversary's way to NOT question, but to just go along with what the adversary wants.
Free agency, which involves conscious awareness and decision, is an essential part of the gospel.
But you know what is MOST important above all - even prophets? (Matt 22:36-40)
LOVE - loving God and others as ourselves. When we love others, we love God.

There are almost 1,000,000,000 starving right now.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you care? Do you care that they may be being robbed of tithes divinely instructed for them, and are suffering as a result?
If a church is true, they will show truth, without hiding, including financial records.
If we accept deceit, or secrecy regarding these sacred tithes for the poor, we are neglecting our duty to love, and as we do to others, we do to God. As we do NOT to others, we do NOT to God. (Matt 25:40,45)

[7cylon7]

I always understood tithing paid based on net pay. I only pay tithing on my net pay. I talked to another member who paid tithing on his gross pay. Why pay tithing on what the goverment takes from you? Then there are tax refunds. Do you pay tithing on your tax refund? Perhaps paying tithing on tax refund could depend on whether someone pays tithing based on gross or net pay. I never have paid tithing on my tax refund.

Truth be told, tithing is on the gross income. Many Apostle have stated such. Should you pay on net then yes you need to pay tithe on tax refund if you pay on gross you don't need to pay a tithe on your tax refund because you already paid it. If you paid on gross and then paid again on tax REFUND (which is not a refund at all, it getting your own money back that you earned.) you would be paying double tithing.

Let me put it this way. You get Paid lets say $100. Look you get paid a gross of $100. Who cares if the government takes 15% out. The check is made to you. You earned $100 only after you earn $100 did you pay the government its taxes. They made a simple law and demanded there money up front, so the government takes your money out for you. You know it was not always that way. They would not take a single dime out before and you had to save it up all year long and then pay it on April 15th. What happened was that lot of people would not save their money up to pay taxes and at the end of the year they were defaulting on the tax owed. The numbers were so great that they had to do something about it or put 1/2 the US citizens in jail for failure to pay taxes. So what did they do? They now take the money out of your check before you even see the check. But make no mistake about it. You got paid $100. You only see $85 so it looks like you only get paid $85 so you flawed thinking is I only owe tithing on $85. However, if you go and look at the very top of your check it say clearly $100 paid to you. That is the reality. At the judgement seat this will condemn all those that practice this type of tithing. I am not saying you won't make it to the celestial kingdom, net payers will IMO, but you won't make it to the highest degree, IMO.

Taxes Explained:
For $50,000 a year gross you pay $5000 a year in federal tax roughly then FICA is another $3000. So $8000 in Federal taxes a year if you only make $50,000. You only get $42,000 net after Federal taxes. Next you pay state which is about $2500 a year. Now you only have $39,500. Next I am sure almost every one has to pay health insurance for self and or family. Let take an even $1200 a year for that. OH what about your 401K savings him. 3%-5% is normal for that. $2500 a year. So what is my tally now? 39,500 - 1200 - 2500 = 35,800

Tithing on $50,000 a year is $5000. So your After Tithing, Taxes, Insurance, 401K net is $30,800.

OH taxes are not done yet, My subdivision has a $500 a year tax, oh ya how about property tax and Cars ran $500 for two cars in one year. I am not even counting property tax which is included on your house payment but that can run 1% to 2% of your purchase price of the house. On a $200,000 house that would be $2000. on top of your house payment and of course you have to carry insurance on your house if you have a loan on it.


So $30,800 -500 -500 = $29,800 / 12 = $2480 to live on after tax, tithing, insurance, property tax.

I forgot car insurance which can run $300 to $800 every six months. For an average of $1200 a year.

NOW, don't forget that most everywhere has SALES TAX!!! 7% to 8% on all purchases is normal.


Are you tired of taxes yet? How does a family of 4 live on $2480 a month????

This is why women are not in the home. They have to work to help support a living standard that is nice.

Going back to the money = debt.... this is why the FED is so evil. Inflation over the years has caused the modern family to have two workers to provide for a family when in the past only the father need work to provide for the family. If loans were give out by the government with no interest the money supply would not get so inflated and inflation would be next to zero. Wages has not kept up with inflation. Over the years Americans have been getting poorer and poorer just by inflation alone. And today, get ready for the Dollar to be dumped big time. It is going to get floored. Some predict 40% devaluation this year. this of course is wanted so the NWO will bring in their one world currency. If you have not figured out yet.

Dune: He who controls the spice, controls the universe. ( Spice for us is the money supply of a nation, and in the NWO case the money supply of the world.)

But I digress....

the main point here was that tithing is on the gross for those that earn a wage. If you are contracted out to earn XX dollars per hour then a full tithe is on the gross pay.

It gets very complicated if you own your own business and you don't pay yourself a wage but just take the profits out for yourself. Then it gets harry. I can explain that if you want me to.

[Albarianotlink]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

[Rand]

Since a liquidity crisis, in which bank balances hit a low level, the church stopped giving its members summary financial reports.

WHY?

Is God (who is LIGHT/TRUTH) about keeping things hidden, dark and secret?

And you are implying what? That the church is full of secret combinations?

I'm not implying it.
It is public knowledge that the church keeps finances secret.
It is personal knowledge - have you ever seen a spread sheet, budget or any financial document explaining exactly how sacred tithes are spent?
No. Neither have I.
Because it's secret.

It may be a secret. God keeps secrets. Why not his prophet? But mostly it is wisdom.

If the church publicized how the tithes were used, it would cause no end of problems. People who think too much would start asking myriad questions. Magnifying glasses would come out. Endless scandals and controversies would begin. Everyone would think the tithes should be spent a different way. People would want a democracy to vote on it, and then a king. Gadiantons would take full control of the church. As it is, there is no power wielded except by those God calls. I think this is the wisest coarse.

[Mark]

Mark,
It's the adversary's way to NOT question, but to just go along with what the adversary wants.
Free agency, which involves conscious awareness and decision, is an essential part of the gospel.
But you know what is MOST important above all - even prophets? (Matt 22:36-40)
LOVE - loving God and others as ourselves. When we love others, we love God.

There are almost 1,000,000,000 starving right now.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you care? Do you care that they may be being robbed of tithes divinely instructed for them, and are suffering as a result?
If a church is true, they will show truth, without hiding, including financial records.
If we accept deceit, or secrecy regarding these sacred tithes for the poor, we are neglecting our duty to love, and as we do to others, we do to God. As we do NOT to others, we do NOT to God. (Matt 25:40,45)

I'm done with this thread. It is obvious that some here have some serious issues with the church and the Brethren. This kind of discussion creates a spirit of apostasy and I want nothing further to do with it. Adios.

[ithink]

Since a liquidity crisis, in which bank balances hit a low level, the church stopped giving its members summary financial reports.

WHY?

Is God (who is LIGHT/TRUTH) about keeping things hidden, dark and secret?

What year did they insist we just trust them? I can't remember. There is another organization that won't release it's reports either, it's the ... oh yea -- the FED! What company to keep!

Is this some kind of tag team cerebral hemorrhaging party? ) You two thinkers are going to think your way straight to my turkey BBQ around the infernal pit if you're not careful. Come on guys cut the crap and stop with the innuendo and slanderous tones concerning the Lords church. Stick with protesting at the pageants and temple square and spare us your juvenile games here. Abide by the forum rules or take a hike.

The Church of Jesus Christ..... of Latter-Day Saints.

It's our church too Mark.

Mark, my stake president and bishop both know about all this because I have told them. And no, I'm not up for any special appointments with the high council, so give it up. These are legitimate questions, which btw, the SP and bishop have no answers. We've been here a hundred times, so if you wish to follow the pattern set forth by Christ in 3 Nephi by resolving the concern before you bear your testimony, we might get somewhere. If you fail to resolve the concern, then you inadvertedly set the church up in opposition to whatever remains unresolved. Do you understand what I mean? Knowledge before faith always, or we'll end up in that same awful state as the primitive church.

[ithink]

I always understood tithing paid based on net pay. I only pay tithing on my net pay. I talked to another member who paid tithing on his gross pay. Why pay tithing on what the goverment takes from you? Then there are tax refunds. Do you pay tithing on your tax refund? Perhaps paying tithing on tax refund could depend on whether someone pays tithing based on gross or net pay. I never have paid tithing on my tax refund.

Truth be told, tithing is on the gross income. Many Apostle have stated such. Should you pay on net then yes you need to pay tithe on tax refund if you pay on gross you don't need to pay a tithe on your tax refund because you already paid it. If you paid on gross and then paid again on tax REFUND (which is not a refund at all, it getting your own money back that you earned.) you would be paying double tithing.

Let me put it this way. You get Paid lets say $100. Look you get paid a gross of $100. Who cares if the government takes 15% out. The check is made to you. You earned $100 only after you earn $100 did you pay the government its taxes. They made a simple law and demanded there money up front, so the government takes your money out for you. You know it was not always that way. They would not take a single dime out before and you had to save it up all year long and then pay it on April 15th. What happened was that lot of people would not save their money up to pay taxes and at the end of the year they were defaulting on the tax owed. The numbers were so great that they had to do something about it or put 1/2 the US citizens in jail for failure to pay taxes. So what did they do? They now take the money out of your check before you even see the check. But make no mistake about it. You got paid $100. You only see $85 so it looks like you only get paid $85 so you flawed thinking is I only owe tithing on $85. However, if you go and look at the very top of your check it say clearly $100 paid to you. That is the reality. At the judgement seat this will condemn all those that practice this type of tithing. I am not saying you won't make it to the celestial kingdom, net payers will IMO, but you won't make it to the highest degree, IMO.

Taxes Explained:
For $50,000 a year gross you pay $5000 a year in federal tax roughly then FICA is another $3000. So $8000 in Federal taxes a year if you only make $50,000. You only get $42,000 net after Federal taxes. Next you pay state which is about $2500 a year. Now you only have $39,500. Next I am sure almost every one has to pay health insurance for self and or family. Let take an even $1200 a year for that. OH what about your 401K savings him. 3%-5% is normal for that. $2500 a year. So what is my tally now? 39,500 - 1200 - 2500 = 35,800

Tithing on $50,000 a year is $5000. So your After Tithing, Taxes, Insurance, 401K net is $30,800.

OH taxes are not done yet, My subdivision has a $500 a year tax, oh ya how about property tax and Cars ran $500 for two cars in one year. I am not even counting property tax which is included on your house payment but that can run 1% to 2% of your purchase price of the house. On a $200,000 house that would be $2000. on top of your house payment and of course you have to carry insurance on your house if you have a loan on it.


So $30,800 -500 -500 = $29,800 / 12 = $2480 to live on after tax, tithing, insurance, property tax.

I forgot car insurance which can run $300 to $800 every six months. For an average of $1200 a year.

NOW, don't forget that most everywhere has SALES TAX!!! 7% to 8% on all purchases is normal.


Are you tired of taxes yet? How does a family of 4 live on $2480 a month????

This is why women are not in the home. They have to work to help support a living standard that is nice.

Going back to the money = debt.... this is why the FED is so evil. Inflation over the years has caused the modern family to have two workers to provide for a family when in the past only the father need work to provide for the family. If loans were give out by the government with no interest the money supply would not get so inflated and inflation would be next to zero. Wages has not kept up with inflation. Over the years Americans have been getting poorer and poorer just by inflation alone. And today, get ready for the Dollar to be dumped big time. It is going to get floored. Some predict 40% devaluation this year. this of course is wanted so the NWO will bring in their one world currency. If you have not figured out yet.

Dune: He who controls the spice, controls the universe. ( Spice for us is the money supply of a nation, and in the NWO case the money supply of the world.)

But I digress....

the main point here was that tithing is on the gross for those that earn a wage. If you are contracted out to earn XX dollars per hour then a full tithe is on the gross pay.

It gets very complicated if you own your own business and you don't pay yourself a wage but just take the profits out for yourself. Then it gets harry. I can explain that if you want me to.

Oh my, I don't want to go through this again. Have you actually read this thread? Any "Apostle" stating tithing is on the gross is teaching false doctrine.

[ithink]

If the church publicized how the tithes were used, it would cause no end of problems. People who think too much would start asking myriad questions. Magnifying glasses would come out. Endless scandals and controversies would begin. Everyone would think the tithes should be spent a different way. People would want a democracy to vote on it, and then a king. Gadiantons would take full control of the church. As it is, there is no power wielded except by those God calls. I think this is the wisest coarse.

They used to publish it and it caused no problems at all. Why would it now be different?

[Walden]

I'm not implying it.
It is public knowledge that the church keeps financs secret.
It is personal knowledge - have you ever seen a spread sheet, budget or any financial document explaining exactly how sacred tithes are spent?
No. Neither have I.
Because it's secret.

It may be a secret. God keeps secrets. Why not his prophet? But mostly it is wisdom.

If the church publicized how the tithes were used, it would cause no end of problems. People who think too much would start asking myriad questions. Magnifying glasses would come out. Endless scandals and controversies would begin. Everyone would think the tithes should be spent a different way. People would want a democracy to vote on it, and then a king. Gadiantons would take full control of the church. As it is, there is no power wielded except by those God calls. I think this is the wisest coarse.

Last time I checked God is "no respecter of persons". And him that lacketh knowledge can ask and it "shall be given him". That doesn't sound like a God of secrets to me.

And "thinking to much"? Not to be rude or anything but five me a break. I thought JS said that a man is saved no faster then he gains knowledge and if he does not then he WILL be brought into captivity by some power from the unseen world. I so not think it wisdom to conceal. The seer stone where made for bringing such things (concealed things) to light.

[NoGreaterLove]

They used to publish it and it caused no problems at all. Why would it now be different?

That would be question for the Lord to answer since he is the one who instituted it.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

[reese]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

[reese]

They used to publish it and it caused no problems at all. Why would it now be different?

That would be question for the Lord to answer since he is the one who instituted it.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

NGL this scripture does not mean that everything that comes out of a servants mouth is the Lord's will or word. It is saying when the Lord speaks it will be fulfilled reguardless of who delivers the message. A message that usually begins or ends with "Thus saith the Lord".

[ithink]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

Awesome understanding. I did a spreadsheet on this and over 35 years, if a man pays 10% of his gross, he pays the same as the man who pays only on his increase. However, the man who pays only on his increase accumulates nearly 2x what the other man does. In other words, the church, over 35 years, got the same money. But the man who paid as Christ asked, get's rich, or as you say, at least has 1/2 a chance to pay for his wife and kids and fulfill all the rest of the obligations including food storage, temple attendance, and not being an infidel by nor providing for your own, as the bible states.

Some would say if the man gets 2x what the other did, he should pay 2x the tithing, but that is the funny part: if he pays too much tithing at the start, he NEVER MAKES THE REST OF THE MONEY. Bizarre, but true. Makes me appreciate how wise God is, certainly wiser than man.

[ithink]

They used to publish it and it caused no problems at all. Why would it now be different?

That would be question for the Lord to answer since he is the one who instituted it.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

NGL this scripture does not mean that everything that comes out of a servants mouth is the Lord's will or word. It is saying when the Lord speaks it will be fulfilled reguardless of who delivers the message. A message that usually begins or ends with "Thus saith the Lord".

Here are the words of two witness prophets on what is and is not valid, no matter who says it:


1. "My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard words as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine" Joseph Fielding Smith (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

2. "If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth". Harold B. Lee (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

We all know what two witnesses mean. If any doctrine taught does not square with the canon, we are not to follow it. It's called "unconstitutional". We at this forum should be well familiar with that.

[Thinker]

In the Netherlands 66.6 % of a persons income will go to the goverment, that's why tithing must be paid over your interest, that's the most honest way, extra money can be paid to fast offerings.
I'm a wardclerk and because of the wrong interpretation of the law of tithing, many people don't pay it anymore, they can't effort it. Paying tithing on your income or interest are two different ways. The first one cost me 3x more than the lord expect. The rich should pay more than the poor, people without kids more than people with kids. Everything you have to pay cost money and tithing should be paid over the money that is less-important. Luxery=10%. Remaining money can be spend on fast-offerings, help to family and friend, dissasters, neighbours and so forth. In my ward the bishop uses tithing for the needy, fast-offerings are never enough. The people that pay tithing, pay too much and they don't pay much fast-offerings. The levitical law is very clear about this all, tithing must be paid on your interest or increase and not all people had to pay tithing. it's time for a sabbattical year, many members are facing difficult time. People that life on bennifits should never pay tithings, this is the lord's law.

Thank you for posting this. I have a thought. Lets say we have a man making $60,000 a year working at XYZco. He has a wife and 2 children. We have another employee working at XYZco. making $60,000 a year as well. This 2nd man has a wife and 5 children. They are both members of the LDS church and pay tithing on their gross. So $6000 a year comes out of each families budget for tithing.
What is wrong with this. We are asking a family of 7 to pay the same amount as a family of 4, when we tithe on our "income". Maybe that is why the Lord has said in the scriptures that we are to tithe on our increase/interest. Seems to be a bit more fair.

Excellent points.
I think that as we feel the desire more & more to love others as ourselves... we'll know how much to keep for ourselves and our families and how much to share. God doesn't look at the pay check... God looks at the heart. Tithing is not meant to be an mandatory command from church leaders, contingent upon "celestial and temple worthiness." That is philosophy of men. Some times, when we can, we will give more than other times... but it must always come from our hearts. "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." -2Cor 3:6

[Thinker]

The Church of Jesus Christ..... of Latter-Day Saints.

It's our church too Mark.

Mark, my stake president and bishop both know about all this because I have told them. And no, I'm not up for any special appointments with the high council, so give it up. These are legitimate questions, which btw, the SP and bishop have no answers. We've been here a hundred times, so if you wish to follow the pattern set forth by Christ in 3 Nephi by resolving the concern before you bear your testimony, we might get somewhere. If you fail to resolve the concern, then you inadvertedly set the church up in opposition to whatever remains unresolved. Do you understand what I mean? Knowledge before faith always, or we'll end up in that same awful state as the primitive church.

I like that, Ithink.
"Knowledge before faith."
Joseph Smith would have followed another church if he went with faith first.
Everyone was telling him to do that - to join this or that and just have faith in this or that.
But he read up, studied, thought about it, & prayed before deciding what to do.

[Thinker]

Last time I checked God is "no respecter of persons". And him that lacketh knowledge can ask and it "shall be given him". That doesn't sound like a God of secrets to me.

And "thinking to much"? Not to be rude or anything but five me a break. I thought JS said that a man is saved no faster then he gains knowledge and if he does not then he WILL be brought into captivity by some power from the unseen world. I so not think it wisdom to conceal. The seer stone where made for bringing such things (concealed things) to light.

I agree, Walden. And well put.
God is not darkness or secrecy.
God is light and truth... "glory of God is intelligence, or... light and truth." - D&C 93:36

[Walden]

Here are the words of two witness prophets on what is and is not valid, no matter who says it:


1. "My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard words as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine" Joseph Fielding Smith (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

2. "If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth". Harold B. Lee (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

We all know what two witnesses mean. If any doctrine taught does not square with the canon, we are not to follow it. It's called "unconstitutional". We at this forum should be well familiar with that.

Thanks for those quotes. I've had problems with teachers who quote general authorities and completely ignore what the scriptures say, as opposed to putting them hand in hand as they are supposed to be. Unless of course they don't fit, and if that happens then It should he looked at.

[NoGreaterLove]

Here are the words of two witness prophets on what is and is not valid, no matter who says it:


1. "My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard words as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine" Joseph Fielding Smith (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

2. "If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth". Harold B. Lee (as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator).

We all know what two witnesses mean. If any doctrine taught does not square with the canon, we are not to follow it. It's called "unconstitutional". We at this forum should be well familiar with that.

Thanks for those quotes. I've had problems with teachers who quote general authorities and completely ignore what the scriptures say, as opposed to putting them hand in hand as they are supposed to be. Unless of course they don't fit, and if that happens then It should he looked at.

An understanding of the scriptures is based upon one's worthiness to have the spirit to teach them. You can not take a look at a naked woman in a PG 13 movie one minute and then later that day have the Holy Ghost teach you the meaning of a scripture unless you have repented in sack cloth and ashes first.

Our prophet and only our prophet has the authority to interpret scripture. He and only he has the authority to speak for the Lord. He does not have to say, "thus saith the Lord" to do so. Neither Moses nor Joseph used that terminology much. The D&C, bible, B0M do not use that term much and those were written by prophets.


Do you think we should just get rid of the modern day prophets and apostles and just go with the scriptures then? That seems to be what some are saying? I mean, we have the scriptures, why do we need anything else? Just open up the books and you can govern yourselves. I mean do we really need prophets, what purpose do they serve anyway? Come on guys. What are you really saying?