The seven trumps in Revelations/ finally got it!

[NoGreaterLove]

• Doctrine and Covenants 115:6
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.

• Doctrine and Covenants 76:102
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

D&C 45:
43 And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;
44 And then they shall look for me, and, behold, I will come; and they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory; with all the holy angels; and he that watches not for me shall be cut off.
45 But before the arm of the Lord shall fall, an angel shall sound his trump, and the saints that have slept shall come forth to meet me in the cloud.
46 Wherefore, if ye have slept in peace blessed are you; for as you now behold me and know that I am, even so shall ye come unto me and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected; and the saints shall come forth from the four quarters of the earth.
47 Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.

[NoGreaterLove]

D&C 45:
43 And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;

I already know what some of you are thinking when you read this. You think it is talking about Old Jerusalem. Some of the most plain and precious parts of the bible were taken out. However, this part was restored in D&C 45:
This is one important item that was left out in the bible that changes the whole picture being painted in that account.

This conversation happened in the spirit world.
16 And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh, and spake unto them, saying: As ye have asked of me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds of heaven, to fulfil the promises that I have made unto your fathers,
17 For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.

He is talking to them in the spirit world and telling them how they will be redeemed and how Israel will be gathered. That is why this is related to the first trump. That is when Christ redeems the first fruits when they are gathered at NJ waiting for him. They are quickened and the dead are resurrected up to meet him in the cloud, before the arm of the Lord falls. The similitude being Lot being delivered BEFORE Sodom was destroyed. With the same signs accompanying the deliverance of the saints as accompanied LOT. See Luke for the description.

[Carlos]

D&C 45:
43 And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;

I already know what some of you are thinking when you read this. You think it is talking about Old Jerusalem. Some of the most plain and precious parts of the bible were taken out. However, this part was restored in D&C 45:
This is one important item that was left out in the bible that changes the whole picture being painted in that account.

This conversation happened in the spirit world.
16 And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh, and spake unto them, saying: As ye have asked of me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds of heaven, to fulfil the promises that I have made unto your fathers,
17 For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.

He is talking to them in the spirit world and telling them how they will be redeemed and how Israel will be gathered. That is why this is related to the first trump.

This is a stretch NG. The disciples knew they would be anxiously waiting a long while in the spirit world before they could see the fulfillment of prophecies. They were not in the spirit world at the time of this conversation. Quote the rest of the conversation for better context.

18 And now ye behold this temple which is in Jerusalem, which ye call the house of God, and your enemies say that this house shall never fall.

19 But, verily I say unto you, that desolation shall come upon this generation as a thief in the night, and this people shall be destroyed and scattered among all nations.

20 And this temple which ye now see shall be thrown down that there shall not be left one stone upon another.

As far as you and I are concerned, we speak apples and oranges. Your foundation for these ideas lies in the notion that the 6th seal events include the destruction of Babylon, AOA, and the estabilishment of zion, therefore Christ will come with the trumpet events. I, on the other hand, have the wild idea that the sixth seal has come and gone. Two vastly different foundations upon which to build. I will never accept your work nor you mine until the Lord reveals.

I do think it's ironic that you are now on a symbolism kick to confirm your theory. Be careful though, people might start accusing you of seeing everything symbolically. On the other hand, you'll be ok. You've got a thicker hide than I.

I wouldn't mind talking about symbolism a little more. Now that you are in the mood, what do you think of these verses.
DC45
40 And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath.
41 And they shall behold blood, and fire, and vapors of smoke.

Now that you've established that sometimes blood=atonement of Christ and fire=Holy Ghost, considering that these signs and wonders literally come from heaven above, what do you think "vapors of smoke" might represent? Note that Joel referred to them as pillars of smoke.

[bobhenstra]

Sigh-----

[NoGreaterLove]

Now that you've established that sometimes blood=atonement of Christ and fire=Holy Ghost, considering that these signs and wonders literally come from heaven above, what do you think "vapors of smoke" might represent? Note that Joel referred to them as pillars of smoke.

I see a literal fulfillment that has a spiritual connection. Carlos, I am putting together a study guide at this moment surrounding D&C 88 using only scriptures and very few comments at all. No personal interpretations. What I have found is each and every event listed at a sign immediately preceding his birth and death are also signs listed in the sixth and seventh seal coming events, minus, moon to blood, although the moon was darkened. Nephi 3 says these events were literally fulfilled and described them. Christ came and told him to add the resurrection part he forgot to put in it. So I have no reason to believe that those signs will be literal.
Is there symbolism involved, probably. If we were to look at the symbolic side of it, I would agree with you and add that smoke would be the prayers of the saints ascending unto heaven.
I would bring attention to Pres Hinckley talking about the dreams and visions of men happening that were part of the fulfillment of prophecy. He even described it a little. It was literal and a last day sign.
Now as far as my posts on this subject. I know there are a lot of you who will disagree. That is fine and I respect that. However, I believe with all my heart that we are in the sixth seal and the trumps in D&C 88 and Rev are one and the same.
If I were to place a symbolic interpretation of moon to blood, it would be the earth being redeemed to a terrestrial state through the blood of Christ. The stars falling from heaven would be the angels coming down to earth to AOA, and the smoke, would be the prayers of the saints ascending up to heaven due to the blood of the saints which was shed on earth asking for justice.

[bobhenstra]

You guys are standing in the shallows of gospel doctrinal understanding, probing the depths of doctrinal knowledge with a long stick hoping something you stir up will make sense, and your doing so with out the proper foundation, knowledge if you will, of simple clear gospel principals that should be fully understood before you probe the depths. "IF" You'll take the time to understand complete repentance, complete forgiveness, understand salvation, then all the rest will slowly come into a perfectly clear view as you are able to handle it.

But first you must have a complete understanding of the basics! Presently, you do not! And that's why you struggle with the depths!

Bob

[NoGreaterLove]

You guys are standing in the shallows of gospel doctrinal understanding, probing the depths of doctrinal knowledge with a long stick hoping something you stir up will make sense, and your doing so with out the proper foundation, knowledge if you will, of simple clear gospel principals that should be fully understood before you probe the depths. "IF" You'll take the time to understand complete repentance, complete forgiveness, understand salvation, then all the rest will slowly come into a perfectly clear view as you are able to handle it.

But first you must have a complete understanding of the basics! Presently, you do not! And that's why you struggle with the depths!

Bob

Ouch! Here comes the personal attacks again from our wise BobH calling us to repentance. Love you Bob. Hope to meet you on the other side. Maybe. :ymhug:

[bobhenstra]

You guys are standing in the shallows of gospel doctrinal understanding, probing the depths of doctrinal knowledge with a long stick hoping something you stir up will make sense, and your doing so with out the proper foundation, knowledge if you will, of simple clear gospel principals that should be fully understood before you probe the depths. "IF" You'll take the time to understand complete repentance, complete forgiveness, understand salvation, then all the rest will slowly come into a perfectly clear view as you are able to handle it.

But first you must have a complete understanding of the basics! Presently, you do not! And that's why you struggle with the depths!

Bob

Ouch! Here comes the personal attacks again from our wise BobH calling us to repentance. Love you Bob. Hope to meet you on the other side. Maybe. :ymhug:

Not calling you to repentance NGL, just calling you to understand simple knowledge first! Even so, I know you guys, my call will go unheeded! You'll continue to probe the depths with your sticks--

Bob

G

[NoGreaterLove]

But first you must have a complete understanding of the basics! Presently, you do not! And that's why you struggle with the depths!

Like charity?

[bobhenstra]

Yes, like charity!

Bob

[NoGreaterLove]

One more to add to this from Hosea 13
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (compare to Rev 8:7)

Think about the similitude of Lot warned to flee Sodom and head towards the promised land. How he did not look back to the wickedness, nor desired to return and he was saved by God as the angel sent down fire and brimstone upon the city to destroy it. In a sense he was lifted up from the city the day of the destruction. Then think of how his wife looked back and was changed to a pillar of salt which was good for nothing except to be trodden down under the foot of man. Two men shall be in the field, one shall be taken and the other left. One is lifted up to Christ and the other is not. Ten virgins, five are invited in and five are not.

Even as it was for Lot, so shall it be when Christ comes to the saints.


D&C 88:
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

Rev 8:
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Luke 17:
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The Son of Man will be revealed to the saints during the first trump. The whole world may even see him.

Read the rest of Lukes account in Chapter 17. It is very interesting.

[Thinkpolicy]

This is a great discussion. I have been prayerfully working on this subject for years on my own and, so far, still feel like I'm moving backward. I felt I was moving forward until I began to compare the D&C trumps with Revelation, etc, so this discussion has been helpful. Strangely, I even almost understand where Bob is coming from, (almost). I say that because I've gained the most when I've asked HF questions that arise during scripture study and then feel like He reveals these things one at a time to me under his own timing and sequence. I feel like some in this discussion are trying to force current events onto some of these signs, when they don't quite fit, yet.

What a worthy effort though!! HF asks us again and again to watch for these signs. I think HF is much more pleased that we are trying to understand than he is unhappy that we fail a lot along the way.

I'm absolutely in the camp of NoGreaterLove in terms of the trumps: they haven't started, yet, and D&C is concurrent with Revelation, just a different perspective.

I feel strongly as though the seventh seal is looming and will be officially opened while most of us are alive, but not yet. Most of the later events of the Seventh seal will probably be experienced by my children and the final seven years of tribulations by them and their children. The seven trumps may take many decades to fulfill themselves. I intend to be here and be very active during this later time, but as a spirit or somewhere on the transfiguration-translation-resurrection spectrum, possibly as a very old man, but probably not.

The 144,000 will all have renewed bodies of some sort, but I think D&C's first trump is talking about the elect who have a role to play on earth during the last seal, whether 144,000 or a different role. The First resurrection has already begun, but the first trump will be a large surge forward (a hastening) among the elect who have something specific to do on earth during the seven trumps and will need renewed bodies. Those who will be a part of the hastening (1st trump resurrection, etc) will be among those who achieved their calling and election. That comes by becoming one with Spirit (following every word out of God's mouth), having Him act as the Holy Spirit of Promise to confirm that we've lived up to the covenants of the various ordinances, receiving the baptism of fire (being physically cleansed of our sins) and earned a face to face visit with the Savior. The gift or promise of a renewed body can be the result of such a visit; it can be the "endowment" we receive. I've made almost no progress along this path but intend to keep working on it so that I can be part of the event described for the first trump in D&C 88.

Why do I interject all this stuff into this discussion?? because God does. Go back and read the first verses of D&C 88. God is describing what the first trumps will be like for those who have had their election made sure, and he makes it clear in the first verses that he is talking to a group of men who have achieved that.

There tends to be a HUGE missing story when we talk about the Last Days: And that is the amazing, glorious time it will be for the righteous, or the elect. We emphasize all the stuff in Revelation about what will happen to the wicked, but almost forget about the indescribable miraculous time it will be for the elect. In my view, D&C's and Revelation's trumps are concurrent. D&C describes some of the blessings for the elect, and Revelation emphasizes some of the events faced by the wicked. D&C is OUR side of the story.

I think just about every event described in Revelation and D&C is literal. And of course at the same time symbolic of things more meaningful. Not one level of symbolism, or even two. But maybe unlimited levels of symbolism and meaning. I don't think any of these patterns are anything less than eternal. Spend the rest of you life trying to get your hands completely around this subject, and the subject will just keep growing fatter and fatter until the idea of completely comprehending it becomes laughable. So in short, absolutely literal with unlimited levels of symbolism.

I think we can see the beginning of the fulfillment of one of the signs, but not yet see the ripeness of that sign. For instance, I believe that Wars and Rumors of Wars began with the civil war and that it continues to ripen with WWI, WWII, the Mideast battles, and finally it will ripen into its full meaning, but we're not quite there yet. This can be true of many of the signs. We can see precursors to the signs, but that doesn't mean they're fulfilled or ripened completely. Just because the Gulf War fit in with one of the signs, doesn't mean that that sign is completely fulfilled and we are now past that point. IMO this is where some on this board are getting confused.

I see HF's timeline as having 7 major events on it (seven seals) ending with endowments of glory after all else. Interspersed among those seals are important Days of Days. The seven trumps would be 7 big Days of Days, and there seem to be smaller Days of Days between even the trumps.

Based on things that have happened in my personal life, among my friends and family, and on the content of conference talks, I believe we have very recently experienced the beginning of a ripening of an important Day of Day that precedes the opening of the Seventh Seal. The Day of Days I'm talking about is the one described by Joel and then again in Acts

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


I'm not talking about some symbolic version or interpretation of the Joel and Acts scripture. I'm talking about real, specific, unambiguous fulfillment of those verses. It's starting to happen, I've seen it, and it's very miraculous and obvious when it does.

I'm beginning to believe that all the signs will be so with the elect (not counting myself as elect, btw). I think they will be obvious and unambiguous. The reason we have to stretch so hard to make some of these signs fit, is because they haven't fully happened, yet.

Let's not forget that the best part of the Last Days is how the Lord will stack the deck against Satan's designs. We are a part of the stacking of the deck, and we should be eagerly seeking ALL the gifts he is waiting to give us, if we'll ask for them.

Some of the most interesting things I've learned in my search on this topic have been the result of my serious effort to develop my gifts and to become one with the Holy Ghost. When I've sought these earnestly, some of the truths about our Last Days have been dropped in my lap with almost no effort. Of course when that's happened I find that there's so much more that I didn't even know I didn't know.

Thanks for the discussion.

[SkyBird]

This is a great discussion.
I'm absolutely in the camp of NoGreaterLove in terms of the trumps: they haven't started, yet, and D&C is concurrent with Revelation, just a different perspective.

I feel strongly as though the seventh seal is looming and will be officially opened while most of us are alive, but not yet.

I totally concur with this thinking!