Book of Mormon: Witchcraft and Joseph Smith

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph started using a seer stone at 14. He was heavy into peeping and finding buried treasure as is attested to in his court case. He said there were guardian spirits watching treasure and when they would dig it would always become slippery and they never got any. (Sounds familiar?) He never disavowed it and used one he found to "translate" the Book of Mormon. The question is, would God use something that he forbids in scripture to bring about more scripture?

Which scriptures are you referring to that forbid the use of seer stones?

Isaiah 8:19. There's a reason they were called peep stones.

Thanks.

To be fair, this verse calls out "wizards that peep" and doesn't mention stones. It was American culture that connected the two words peep and stone. Now, it could be that we rightfully made the connection. My preference is to not have any stones involved, just pure revelation, but that may not be how it works. The saints were definitely guilty of looking unto Joseph as a peeping wizard and he performed the role well, but I don't know that his later revelatory failures should automatically take down the BoM too. I think the BoM stands on its own.

Good question though, what is the Lord's purest way to transmit scripture?

[Shawn Henry]

Here is a scripture that demonstrates that God may chose to use “a stone”:

23)And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.-Alma 37

The hard thing about using the Book of Mormon or D&C to justify anything Joseph did, is that Joseph produced it. If Joseph made up the Book of Mormon, he could write himself or whatever he thought valid into the text.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a biblical precedent, but I don't think the Bible ever talks about translation means. We do know how the words of the Lord are received though, right? Typically, the Lord says to write the words which I shall give you, or an angel will say to speak the words which I shall give unto you, it is simply revelatory.

The BoM teaches us of the Nephite interpreters, which settles the matter for BoM believers, but that still leaves the problem of using Joseph to prove Joseph like Telavian points out.

[Luke]

Here is a scripture that demonstrates that God may chose to use “a stone”:

23)And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.-Alma 37

The hard thing about using the Book of Mormon or D&C to justify anything Joseph did, is that Joseph produced it. If Joseph made up the Book of Mormon, he could write himself or whatever he thought valid into the text.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a biblical precedent, but I don't think the Bible ever talks about translation means. We do know how the words of the Lord are received though, right? Typically, the Lord says to write the words which I shall give you, or an angel will say to speak the words which I shall give unto you, it is simply revelatory.

The BoM teaches us of the Nephite interpreters, which settles the matter for BoM believers, but that still leaves the problem of using Joseph to prove Joseph like Telavian points out.

There’s a Biblical precedent for God using physical objects to do things, e.g. Moses rod, a snake on a pole, etc.

[LDSFreedom]

Here is a scripture that demonstrates that God may chose to use “a stone”:

23)And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.-Alma 37

The hard thing about using the Book of Mormon or D&C to justify anything Joseph did, is that Joseph produced it. If Joseph made up the Book of Mormon, he could write himself or whatever he thought valid into the text.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a biblical precedent, but I don't think the Bible ever talks about translation means. We do know how the words of the Lord are received though, right? Typically, the Lord says to write the words which I shall give you, or an angel will say to speak the words which I shall give unto you, it is simply revelatory.

The BoM teaches us of the Nephite interpreters, which settles the matter for BoM believers, but that still leaves the problem of using Joseph to prove Joseph like Telavian points out.

Admittedly it's a stretch, but:

Genesis 44:5
Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

Genesis 44:15
And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

We know Joseph in Egypt was a holy man. It seems the whole book of Genesis comes down to the life of Joseph. What are the feelings about the word "Divine"?

[RaVaN]

Just as an aside, anyone take a close look at your screens and how they have become teraphims these days?

Black crying mirror
Blue light reveals spirits.
The dead speak from them
They tell the future
You can see the past and the present
You can affect things across distances
Can show you riches

Witchcraft and sorcery and magic arts? Absolutely, Habbakuk I think describes this as well...

Anyhow...

[JohnnyL]

From what I've looked into this subject, it only shows they were into folk magic and not witchcraft. But we can all believe what we want.

03) MAGIC: Did Joseph Smith mix Christianity with Nineteenth Century tradition and magical powers? Did he attempt to employ dark arts to discover hidden treasure?

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/03-ma ... -treasure/

This link is quite biased. It lists 7 faithful sources, and 1 academic source which is middle of the road.

If you listen to Dan Vogel's videos on this subject, then you can see that Joseph would sometimes sacrifice animals over a supposed treasure which would appease the guardian spirits. I agree that things were different back then. However, if Joseph did those things today we would certainly equate it with witchcraft. He would even be excommunicated for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05-xQ9B7Ubk

I only did a short search on Google a few minutes ago to find something to post. I did not get my original views from that source.
As far as Dan Vogel, I'd never spend any time listening to anything ge has to say. I do not view him as a credible source either.

To say it bluntly but politely, Vogel lost most every argument on a former apologetic forum. Literally.

Metcalfe did a little better; I have a little more respect for his scholarship.

[LDSFreedom]

Just as an aside, anyone take a close look at your screens and how they have become teraphims these days?

Black crying mirror
Blue light reveals spirits.
The dead speak from them
They tell the future
You can see the past and the present
You can affect things across distances
Can show you riches

Witchcraft and sorcery and magic arts? Absolutely, Habbakuk I think describes this as well...

Anyhow...

Please share more...

I thought this 3 1/2 minute episode goes well with your post. Hugo raises a warning voice repetitively about "black mirrors".

[JohnnyL]

Thinking about Joseph's talisman:
When my wife was undergoing surgery, I made a talisman and put it on the lighted board in the waiting room, next to her number. I focused on it and prayed for my wife, non stop, for three hours and 50 minutes. I drew the talisman with things like, "love, health, healing, Jesus Christ" and a few other things that con't come to mind, right now. While she was unconscious, she experienced all of those elements and she said that it not only helped her greatly but she experienced physical and spiritual strength. She experienced the elements I drew and felt their significance.

My Grandma made warts go away by using an ancient Druid method. There was no pagan praying involved. Also, it didn't matter whether the person believed in it or not... the warts always went away.

These things are a reminder to me of quantum physics. The gist of QP is: Everything is connected to everything else.

Here's another thought: The Dalai Lama said, "Learn the rules perfectly so you know how to break them correctly".

Although superstition may be annoying to some, it is not inherently evil. If it detours one from their Path, it is bad.

An example of annoying superstition is when driving down Provo Canyon, from Heber, I see many drivers touch their brake pedals without actually slowing down, before each turn. This is a superstition... not evil... just annoying, because there is no useful purpose to it.

I don't believe Joseph's talisman detoured him from his path. When I make warts go away or heal horses, I never forget my connection to deity.

Knowing or even using esoteric/ unaccepted/ weird knowledge/ superstition is not the same as evil/ wicked practices.

Anyone get excommunicated yet for:
having a water cup covered in good words?
believing in flat earth-related ideas?
carrying a rabbit foot?
wearing your favorite socks in the stake basketball championship?
using feng shui?
not getting chemotherapy, radiation, or surgery for cancer?
singing lullabies?
having pictures of Jesus (especially looking like a Men's magazine stud) hanging on their wall?

[JohnnyL]

Joseph Smith did transgress when he gave Martin Harris the 116 pgs after being told not to. However, in Joseph Smith’s history July 1828 gives more information. The Lord did restore Joseph's gift and he was again called to translate- I will post that below...
Personally I think Joseph was into flow magic not witchcraft- there is a difference and as there is in anything there is opposition in all things. I just don't see the Jupiter talisman a bad thing- there may be more positive things to something like that that we just don't know or understand. I believe wholeheartedly that Joseph repented and was successful to the end of his life.
The church was called true and living because Joseph had contact/connected with Christ as well as the Father. When Joseph and Hyrum were murdered that aspect was gone, so it was longer "a true and living" church because that contact was gone from the leaders. However, many regular members did have a strong relationship with Christ. (Maybe not quite like Joseph but anyway)

JSH July 1828
Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of a Savior come unto my people, and to the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathers. And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquities of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites because of their iniquities and their abominations. And for this very purpose are these plates preserved which contain these records — that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled which he made to his people, and that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.
After I had obtained the above revelation, both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again. But in a few days they were returned to me when I inquired of the Lord and the Lord said thus unto me:
Revelation given to Joseph Smith Jr., [which he dated to] May 1829, informing him of the alteration of the manuscript of the forepart of the Book of Mormon.

Now behold, I say unto you that because you delivered up those writings, which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them; and you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore, see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun. Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided to enable you to translate, but be diligent unto the end.
Pray always that you may come off conqueror, yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work. Behold, they have sought to destroy you, yea, even the man in whom you have trusted has sought to destroy you. And for this cause I said that he is a wicked man, for he has sought to take away the things wherewith you have been entrusted, and he has also sought to destroy your gift. And because you have delivered the writings into his hands, behold, wicked men have taken them from you. Therefore, you have delivered them up, yea, that which was sacred, unto wickedness.
And behold, Satan has put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands. And behold, I say unto you that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written, and on this wise the Devil has sought to lay a cunning plan that he may destroy this work, for he has put it into their hearts to do this, that by lying they may say they have caught you in the words which you have pretended to translate. Verily I say unto you that I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing, for behold, he has put it into their hearts to get you to tempt the Lord your God, in asking to translate it over again. And then behold, they say and think in their hearts, We will see if God has given him power to translate; if so, he will also give him power again. And if God gives him power again or if he translate again, or in other words, if he bringeth forth the same words, behold, we have the same with us and we have altered them; therefore, they will not agree, and we will say that he has lied in his words, and that he has no gift, and that he has no power; therefore, we will destroy him and also the work. And we will do this that we may not be ashamed in the end, and that we may get glory of the world.
Verily, verily I say unto you that Satan has great hold upon their hearts; he stirs them up to iniquity against that which is good, and their hearts are corrupt and full of wickedness and abominations, and they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil; therefore, they will not ask of me. Satan stirs them up that he may lead their souls to destruction. And thus he has laid a cunning plan, thinking to destroy the work of God. But I will require this at their hands, and it shall turn to their shame and condemnation in the day of judgment. Yea, he stirs up their hearts to anger against this work, yea, he says unto them, Deceive and lie in wait to catch that you may destroy; behold this is no harm. And thus he flatters them, and tells them that it is no sin to lie that they may catch a man in a lie, that they may destroy him. And thus he flatters them and leads them along until he drags their souls down to hell, and thus he causes them to catch themselves in their own snare. And thus he goes up and down, to and fro in the earth, seeking to destroy the souls of men.
Verily, verily I say unto you, woe be unto him that lies to deceive because he supposes that another lies to deceive, for such are not exempt from the justice of God.
Now behold, they altered those words because Satan says unto them, He has deceived you. And thus he flatters them away to do iniquity, to get you to tempt the Lord your God. Behold, I say unto you that you shall not translate again those words which have gone forth out of your hands, for behold, they shall not accomplish their evil designs in lying against those words. For behold, if you should bring forth the same words, they will say that you have lied, that you have pretended to translate but that you have contradicted yourself. And behold, they will publish this, and Satan will harden the hearts of the people, to stir them up to anger against you that they will not believe my words. Thus, Satan thinks to overpower your testimony in this generation, that the work may not come forth in this generation.
But behold, here is wisdom, and because I show unto you wisdom and give you commandments concerning these things, what you shall do, show it not unto the world until you have accomplished the work of translation. Marvel not that I said unto you, Here is wisdom, show it not unto the world, for I said show it not unto the world that you may be preserved. Behold, I do not say that you shall not show it unto the righteous; but as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous; therefore, I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter.
And now verily I say unto you that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, are engraven upon the plates of Nephi, yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. And now because of the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account; therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained. And behold, you shall publish it as the record of Nephi, and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work, yea I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil. Behold, they have only got a part or an abridgment of the account of Nephi. Behold, there are many things engraven on the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel. Therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi and send forth in this work.
And behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea, and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people. And I said unto them that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers, yea, and this was their faith: that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions. Now this is not all. Their faith in their prayers were that this gospel should be made known also if it were possible that other nations should possess this land. And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life, yea that it might be free unto all — of whatsoever nation, kindred, tongue, or people they may be.
And now behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up. And for this cause have I said, If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church. Therefore, whosoever belongs to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven. But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments, but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the Devil; yea, verily, verily I say unto you that it is they that I will disturb and cause to tremble and shake to the center.
Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto my own and my own received me not. I am the light which shines in darkness and the darkness comprehends it not. I am he who said, Other sheep have I which are not of this fold, unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not. And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob. And I will bring to light their marvelous works which they did in my name, yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them. And behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me. And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention. Yea, Satan does stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine, and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery, for behold, I will gather them as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
Behold, this is my doctrine: whosoever repents and comes unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declares more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me. Therefore, he is not of my church.
And now behold, whosoever is of my church and endures of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
And now remember the words of him who is the life and the light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord, and your God. Amen.

Actually, according to the story, the Lord said he could give them to Martin. It makes no sense that Joseph was punished after the Lord said yes.

Joseph needed a lesson, and he got one that he probably never forgot.
He kept asking for an answer he quite likely knew was wrong.

It wasn't just about this one issue, this one time--it was a pattern in Joseph's life that needed to be corrected, as shown in DC 3 and DC 10:

DC 3:4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.

6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—

8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.

9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.

10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;

11 Except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to translate, thou deliveredst up that which was sacred into the hands of a wicked man,

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and boasted in his own wisdom.

14 And this is the reason that thou hast lost thy privileges for a season—

15 For thou hast suffered the counsel of thy director to be trampled upon from the beginning.

///
DC 10: 1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

6 Behold, they have sought to destroy you; yea, even the man in whom you have trusted has sought to destroy you.

7 And for this cause I said that he is a wicked man, for he has sought to take away the things wherewith you have been entrusted; and he has also sought to destroy your gift.

8 And because you have delivered the writings into his hands, behold, wicked men have taken them from you.

9 Therefore, you have delivered them up, yea, that which was sacred, unto wickedness.

[JohnnyL]

Merovingian Dynasty

Members of the Merovingian bloodline:
From the 5th to the 8th centuries, the Merovingian dynasty of kings ruled Europe and, from the Middle Ages until the present day, most of Europe's monarchs have been of Merovingian lineage.

Almost all Europeans have some Merovingian lineage. That's the bit that is missed out in these discussions.

Charlemagne has millions of descendants. It's not that special.
...

I think most LDS pioneers were from at least one, if not multiple, of these lines. (Anyone can do the genealogy and see. Once you get into any one of them, they connect with many others.)

[JohnnyL]

Which scriptures are you referring to that forbid the use of seer stones?

Isaiah 8:19. There's a reason they were called peep stones.

Thanks.

To be fair, this verse calls out "wizards that peep" and doesn't mention stones. It was American culture that connected the two words peep and stone. Now, it could be that we rightfully made the connection. My preference is to not have any stones involved, just pure revelation, but that may not be how it works. The saints were definitely guilty of looking unto Joseph as a peeping wizard and he performed the role well, but I don't know that his later revelatory failures should automatically take down the BoM too. I think the BoM stands on its own.

Good question though, what is the Lord's purest way to transmit scripture?

"Write the words I tell you."

[LDSFreedom]

Here's another by Hugo about 23 minutes:

He make a good point that many practice witchcraft without even knowing it.

[RaVaN]

@ LDSFreedom

I was just took at the hypocrisy in myself should I decide to throw stones at a dead prophet. We been sick of late so we have been doing some real ain't been done in years serious cleaning. During this, after seeing various items, books, and suchlike we had acquired for years, I remarked that we could practise most religions in the world, with the books to learn how, without leaving our house with so much of the various things we had acquired. Take this necklace I was surprised to find while cleaning. In my youth, I was having a hard time. I was at some fair and some pagan witch out of the blue, put this pendant around my neck, gave me some blessing to ward my heart. I wore that for years, not because it is magic, but for the gift of her heart. I keep thinking of making it into a coin to carry, to remind me of the kindness she showed me, a stranger. It is not that dissimilar of a pendant to that Jupiter stone.

Anyhow, I try to avoid hypocrisy, but run right at it like the rest of us. And yeah, cell phones are definitely teraphim. My companion was reading the bible and asked me what a teraphim was, and after explaining them, she said "So a cellphone" and after pondering it a bit I realized it was so much worse than that. Turn your screen off and look into it...black crying mirror...having made one before, I realized there are very specific things that call for blue light, and black crying mirrors...interesting stuff. Food for thought.

[Niemand]

Merovingian Dynasty

Members of the Merovingian bloodline:
From the 5th to the 8th centuries, the Merovingian dynasty of kings ruled Europe and, from the Middle Ages until the present day, most of Europe's monarchs have been of Merovingian lineage.

Almost all Europeans have some Merovingian lineage. That's the bit that is missed out in these discussions.

Charlemagne has millions of descendants. It's not that special.
...

I think most LDS pioneers were from at least one, if not multiple, of these lines. (Anyone can do the genealogy and see. Once you get into any one of them, they connect with many others.)

They will be. Since I have French and Norman ancestry, I almost certainly will too.

[Shawn Henry]

Isaiah 8:19. There's a reason they were called peep stones.

Thanks.

To be fair, this verse calls out "wizards that peep" and doesn't mention stones. It was American culture that connected the two words peep and stone. Now, it could be that we rightfully made the connection. My preference is to not have any stones involved, just pure revelation, but that may not be how it works. The saints were definitely guilty of looking unto Joseph as a peeping wizard and he performed the role well, but I don't know that his later revelatory failures should automatically take down the BoM too. I think the BoM stands on its own.

Good question though, what is the Lord's purest way to transmit scripture?

"Write the words I tell you."

Thank goodness for such statements in the BoM.

[Niemand]

Just as an aside, anyone take a close look at your screens and how they have become teraphims these days?

Black crying mirror
Blue light reveals spirits.
The dead speak from them
They tell the future
You can see the past and the present
You can affect things across distances
Can show you riches

Witchcraft and sorcery and magic arts? Absolutely, Habbakuk I think describes this as well...

Anyhow...

NB: it's scrying.

[blitzinstripes]

Just as an aside, anyone take a close look at your screens and how they have become teraphims these days?

Black crying mirror
Blue light reveals spirits.
The dead speak from them
They tell the future
You can see the past and the present
You can affect things across distances
Can show you riches

Witchcraft and sorcery and magic arts? Absolutely, Habbakuk I think describes this as well...

Anyhow...

Indeed. We even write a new name on it that no one else knows. (Password). They are literally our own personal Urim and Thummim. I just don't know about the source......

[Lynn]

"John Tavner" noted:
++++++++++++
His mom was into it as well if I remember correctly.
++++++++++++

It was Joseph, sr. not Lucy.

"HeberC",
I must say, I am impressed how well you have understood & relayed that understanding.
++++++++++
These things are a reminder to me of quantum physics. The gist of QP is: Everything is connected to everything else.
++++++++++
Native American saying simply put explains than man is not the web of life, but what man does to the web, he does to himself.
Here is one version. Naturally, some weave a story as to its origin (noted at bottom).
See <https://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/seattle.htm>

As to ...
+++++++++++
Here's another thought: The Dalai Lama said, "Learn the rules perfectly so you know how to break them correctly".
+++++++++++
Lately, with "newbies" (new hiires) at the door shop, I use the example of Eddie Murphy in "The Golden Child " (movie) , in which he must go thru tests to gain the right to secure & use the magical dagger that will kill Satan/Devil and/or his major henchman to foil a plot to kill the golden child & prevent evil from taking over the planet. The beloved wise man sets him out on his path of the tests. Murphy is given a glass of water & told he cannot spill even a drop or he will not be successful. In one test, he almost falls into a bottomless pit as he steps on a false support. Somehow, he manages not to spill any. He recovers & pulls himself back up. But in the midst of this, his nemesis (yes, each are a pain in the XXXX between each other), the foolish/ wise old man shouts out, "You must learn when to break the rules." Puzzled and very irritated, he still wonders about this saying, until it "clicks". He then proceeds to drink every last drop of water from the glass to not spill any. He then leaves the glass, not needing it, freeing both arms now to pursue the quest. Then he presses on & comes to the end of his quest, as the dagger is mounted, yet a fire flares more as he reaches for it. Knowing it looks like his arm will be burned, because he must succeed & rescue his partner from death, he must pursaue on. But here faith is tested, but at the very last second, as his hand almost touches the flame, the fire subsides (the flames quenched as the water is in him) & he is allowed to retrieve the dagger. In the door shop (for cabinets) I explain that there are rules in certain operations, which must be carried out completely, or disaster will result. Yet, in some cases, they do not apply, or disaster will commence. You have to know when to break the rules. The only way to know, is by asking someone with experience, or to have acquired it in your experience.


"logonbump",
Yes, Quinn researched well & had access to archives around the world, which I might say I envy, but not in the negative sense of envy. and am glad that somebody else recognized his efforts. I've got the 1987 HB edition, as well as the 1998 Revised & Enlarged edition PB.
Most do not know that other regions of the USA, also used the peepstone in the hat, be it for looking for treasure, as well as looking to find things.

In fact, one seer in the UK area, was given a stone by his mother who had met a spirit returning to its grave, that stated because of her bravery, to look in the nearby brook for a stone with a hole (peepstone or "Holey" stone as the Native American refer to it) & give it her son. With it. he would be able to see the future. And sure enough, he did. Down the line, if I recall, they burned him at the stake, but he never recanted the gift. This is found in the Time Life series- "Mysteries of the Unknown"-- 'Visions & Prophecies'.

Quinn found another vision, which was comparable to Joseph's "First Vision". As you know, one version speaks of two personages who looked identical. As I have stated many times before, one is Michael (referred to as "Father" by Joseph), and Jesus (referred to as "Son"). Well, this other person's vision also shares a vision of the same two-- Michael & Jesus, In the 1987 HB w/BJ it is found on p.13. Michael here is "the Ancient of Days". See page 15 in the 1998 PB copy.

Now, for sometrhing you never had supposed. The Book of Mormon sheds light upon understanding this current experience or age. I am sure you have heard it before- It goes like this-- "There must be needs be an opposition IN ALL things." OH! You have heard of it. But do you understand it? Jesus shares in the AG the definition of the question asked of him- <<What is man?>> His reply in AG 22:11-13 ---
"Man is the truth and falsehood strangely mixed. Man is the Breath [aka the Spirit] made flesh; so truth and falsehood are conjoined in him; and then they strive, and naught goes down and man as truth abides."

The BoM quote is found in 2nd Nephi (CoC-RLDS 1:81-86/ LDS 2:11-12).
One book explains the Kaballistic understanding of what some referr to as "magic" of which may include "white magic". In Charles Ponce's 1973 PB 'Kabbalah', he explains the ancient traditions, as he was widely known researcher on comparative religions, as well as a widely known lecturer also in philosophy & psychology. In his Introduction, he touches on magic & the difference between "white (light) & "black"(dark) magic. On page 15, he shares his findings:
"Jewish magic has never been anything but the invocation of the benefic powers through the vehicle of the holy names of God and his angels. The Talmud was the first to make a distinction between black & white magic; the black variety was forbidden by the Bible in a number of places under penalty of death. So-called white magic, the variety which allowed the employment of sorcery to further religious needs, was in many cases condoned."

To understand more, continue on page 7, as Ponce shares that the early Christians referred to the Jews as master magicians, due to the strange ways of Judaism. In fact, after Moses killed the Egyptian by Hekau (words/sounds of power), he had to flee, as the pharoah would realize he was the one foretold to come, as the Hebrews/Jews were known for mastering the art of Heka & were referred to as a Hekay (a master of sound vibrations).

Let's back up to the statement shared by Ponce. He says the dark or black kind was forbidden, even to the penalty of death. Does anybody recognize this? Well, in the OT, it is found in Exodus 22:18.
In the KJV it is recorded as "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
However, in the RSV, it is, "You shall not permit a sorceress to live."
In the LT version, it is the same, which is odd, as I am sure George Lamsa (LT is Lamsa Translation from the Aramaic Peshitta), would have caught it. I will have to doublecheck his book, one friend donated to my library- 'Old Testament Light'. Lamsa touches here & there on misunderstood portions of the scriptures.
And I will have to look for the volume of the 'The Interpreter's Bible (12 volume set) that has Exodus & see if they found more understanding of this verse.
You see, in the IV Bible or JST, for some odd reason, Joseph Smith alterred it to, "Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live."

What gives here? One Jewish researcher found that this term or word used in this scripture is not a "witch", but refers to an evil sorcerer or sorceress who commits murder (or better yet,) commits to doing it to reap benefits for themselves.

It is interesting that Joseph Smith replaced witch with murderer. This reflects the true sayings in the Book of Mormon concerning this, or I should say a deeper understanding of what was actually being touched upon. The soothsayers & such, also concern those who seek to be held as of high, for themselves, having sought to get gain or praise. These are those whose priestcrafts have taken many off the path and spread great falsehoods.

Perhaps more now can be understood by the NT saying: as to many having the form of godliness, yet denying the power thereof.

Quinn, in his findings of research, lists that there was found to be 4 levels as to categories of magic on page xvi. And that the Age of Reason has reduced those to 3. See page 133 of the 1987 HB of EM&MWV. That would be pages xxxi, 158, plus 186 of the 1998 enlarged & revised xxxi, 158, plus 186. The second level was Theurgick,which was associated with knowing the names of angels.

Perhaps you can now see the potential which lies ahead in the mysteries to be revealed spoken of in D&C (CoC-RLDS 98:12d-e/ LDS 101:93-95):
"What I have said unto you, must needs be,that all men may be left without excuse; that wise men and rulers may hear and know that which they never considered; thatI may proceeed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work. That men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God."
A portion near the end of Isaiah 29 focuses on this, even more so the IV Isaiah 29 of Joseph Smith (JST), and the expanded version in the Book of Mormon in 2nd Nephi.

Yes Niemand, I was going to note that it was not "crying" mirror but scrying, or the old spelling skrying. Joseph of Egypt used a dark, tarnished silver cup to skry (scry) with.

As noted earlier by Ponce, the scriptures are focused upon warning that this art is not be used selfishly, to harm others, or to get personal gain.

I used to wear an Indian necklace I bought in 1978 at "Indian Country" right outside of Meteor Canyon in Arizona. In fact, later it was used in the movie "Starman" with Jeff Bridges & Karen Allen. It may have changed over the years, but they go inside the dome- "Indian Country". Anyway, the necklace reflects the Bird Tribes, of which this one was orange which is associated with the FireBird or "Phoenix". I wore this one until it wore out, then I wore the other (as I bought a pair). Interesting thing, as you associate an item with positive aspects, it radiates not only a reinforcing concept, but almosat a force field protecting you. In my work, back in 1990-1992, I worked for a an oilfield supply company. I was out delivering a set of huge air tongs (used for tightening or unscewing pipe on a rig over the well). As I was in the back of old "Blue" (a pickup), since my boss borrowed my new work truck for a project with his wife, a yell came out from up high (no, it was not God), from a worker up high on the workover rig, It seems a rigging broke free & was falling. Every worker instantly was or had vanished. I was thru with whatever I was doing, and had just hopped off the tailgate. In less than 10 seconds the massive metal came down right where I had been, crushinf the fender inside the pickup bed about 1/3rd. As one guy at workj noted, had I been under it & it came down on me, my hard hat would be about my knees (as he was describing how powerful it would have crushed me). Anyways, several instances occurred in the same manner. My two co-workers stated they had to get a necklace like mine as it seemed to protect me from harm. It is one thing when you notice. But it is in a higher league when others notice it as well.

As to peepstones, I have a pile of them. But I have one very special, as later in the day of April 6, 1990 as I attending the groundbreaking of the spiral "Temple" of CoC-RLDS in Independence, I arrived at Tower Hill at Adam-ondi-Ahman about 3 to 3:30 PM. It had been very cold with a strong chilling to the bone wind. I felt I had been summoned there for some reason. As I walked over to the end of Tower Hill, I walked to the edge facing south. As south is where the light is, and is also associated with Michael. So as I crouched down wondering why I was called here, the wind died out & warm sun felt good, completely different from the way it had been. I did what I call a little ritual for "Summoning the Inner Voice". Just as I came out of it, the Inner Voice blurted out, "There is a peepstone on the hill, retrieve it."

Imagine my surprise, as I had expected nothing like this, as to why I was here. OK, so be it. After about an hour scouring around, none werte found. Slightly frustated, I still wondered, but on the trail back to the rental car, lo & behold, I spotted one on the ground. Sure enough, it was a peepstone. I have preserved it to this day, until the time I am to use it. Oh, I might add, that in a similar situation, Joseph Smith was also directed to his major chocolate peepstone, of which he saw and its location via looking into Sally Chase's "glass".

I also have built what is called an Enochian scrying mirror from instructions. But I modified it & shared with the author the reasons for my modifying it. There is a certain ritual for opening & securing your operation of the mirror, for your protection. However, in this case, if you understand the reasons behind it all, then you know how to "break the rules" yet still operate safely. I have a simple inset door with a silver locking door knob, and thus I unlock the door & lock it back up using the Enochian words (tones) of ODO (open) & ALLAR (close or seal). I have yet to use it for true skrying. But I have used it to invoke dreams or visions when I need assistance on something. It has not failed. Talk about vivid dreams or visions, they are just as real, as me sitting here currently typing this up right now. Can this instrument be used for negative purposes? Absolutely, just like your car can be used for driving into others. But it can be used for good, such as going to work, providing income for food to feed your family or for taking someone to run errands to assist them. It is a vehicle, just as you are. YOU MUST CHOOSE as to which end it will be applied, as there is an OPPOSITION IN ALL THINGS.

In summation, many do not know it, but in the Middle Ages, Jews who were being persecuted, helped to protect those of Wicca (White Witchcraft), who were also being persecuted & killed or tortured.

In this manner, look around, politics currently are evolving this into a society of judgement & vengeance, because somebody has riled them up enough in their emotions to have them overcome to lashing out in hideous ways. Will you too allow yourself to be a party to this?

What is it Yoda spoke of, as to fear & anger, it leads to the dark side. Jesus in AG 92:10-12, states that two sturdy asses bind the will of man- Fear & Unbelief. When these two are turned aside, man will know no bounds.

For research on skrying, see Raymond Moody's research into mirror gazing & the "Theater of the Mind", be it in his books or in length, in the special titled "Ancient Prophecies: 2" which aired first on NBC in November 1994. The DVD can be found on Ebay.

[John Tavner]

"John Tavner" noted:
++++++++++++
His mom was into it as well if I remember correctly.
++++++++++++

It was Joseph, sr. not Lucy.

"HeberC",
I must say, I am impressed how well you have understood & relayed that understanding.
++++++++++
These things are a reminder to me of quantum physics. The gist of QP is: Everything is connected to everything else.
++++++++++
Native American saying simply put explains than man is not the web of life, but what man does to the web, he does to himself.
Here is one version. Naturally, some weave a story as to its origin (noted at bottom).
See <https://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/seattle.htm>

As to ...
+++++++++++
Here's another thought: The Dalai Lama said, "Learn the rules perfectly so you know how to break them correctly".
+++++++++++
Lately, with "newbies" (new hiires) at the door shop, I use the example of Eddie Murphy in "The Golden Child " (movie) , in which he must go thru tests to gain the right to secure & use the magical dagger that will kill Satan/Devil and/or his major henchman to foil a plot to kill the golden child & prevent evil from taking over the planet. The beloved wise man sets him out on his path of the tests. Murphy is given a glass of water & told he cannot spill even a drop or he will not be successful. In one test, he almost falls into a bottomless pit as he steps on a false support. Somehow, he manages not to spill any. He recovers & pulls himself back up. But in the midst of this, his nemesis (yes, each are a pain in the XXXX between each other), the foolish/ wise old man shouts out, "You must learn when to break the rules." Puzzled and very irritated, he still wonders about this saying, until it "clicks". He then proceeds to drink every last drop of water from the glass to not spill any. He then leaves the glass, not needing it, freeing both arms now to pursue the quest. Then he presses on & comes to the end of his quest, as the dagger is mounted, yet a fire flares more as he reaches for it. Knowing it looks like his arm will be burned, because he must succeed & rescue his partner from death, he must pursaue on. But here faith is tested, but at the very last second, as his hand almost touches the flame, the fire subsides (the flames quenched as the water is in him) & he is allowed to retrieve the dagger. In the door shop (for cabinets) I explain that there are rules in certain operations, which must be carried out completely, or disaster will result. Yet, in some cases, they do not apply, or disaster will commence. You have to know when to break the rules. The only way to know, is by asking someone with experience, or to have acquired it in your experience.


"logonbump",
Yes, Quinn researched well & had access to archives around the world, which I might say I envy, but not in the negative sense of envy. and am glad that somebody else recognized his efforts. I've got the 1987 HB edition, as well as the 1998 Revised & Enlarged edition PB.
Most do not know that other regions of the USA, also used the peepstone in the hat, be it for looking for treasure, as well as looking to find things.

In fact, one seer in the UK area, was given a stone by his mother who had met a spirit returning to its grave, that stated because of her bravery, to look in the nearby brook for a stone with a hole (peepstone or "Holey" stone as the Native American refer to it) & give it her son. With it. he would be able to see the future. And sure enough, he did. Down the line, if I recall, they burned him at the stake, but he never recanted the gift. This is found in the Time Life series- "Mysteries of the Unknown"-- 'Visions & Prophecies'.

Quinn found another vision, which was comparable to Joseph's "First Vision". As you know, one version speaks of two personages who looked identical. As I have stated many times before, one is Michael (referred to as "Father" by Joseph), and Jesus (referred to as "Son"). Well, this other person's vision also shares a vision of the same two-- Michael & Jesus, In the 1987 HB w/BJ it is found on p.13. Michael here is "the Ancient of Days". See page 15 in the 1998 PB copy.

Now, for sometrhing you never had supposed. The Book of Mormon sheds light upon understanding this current experience or age. I am sure you have heard it before- It goes like this-- "There must be needs be an opposition IN ALL things." OH! You have heard of it. But do you understand it? Jesus shares in the AG the definition of the question asked of him- <<What is man?>> His reply in AG 22:11-13 ---
"Man is the truth and falsehood strangely mixed. Man is the Breath [aka the Spirit] made flesh; so truth and falsehood are conjoined in him; and then they strive, and naught goes down and man as truth abides."

The BoM quote is found in 2nd Nephi (CoC-RLDS 1:81-86/ LDS 2:11-12).
One book explains the Kaballistic understanding of what some referr to as "magic" of which may include "white magic". In Charles Ponce's 1973 PB 'Kabbalah', he explains the ancient traditions, as he was widely known researcher on comparative religions, as well as a widely known lecturer also in philosophy & psychology. In his Introduction, he touches on magic & the difference between "white (light) & "black"(dark) magic. On page 15, he shares his findings:
"Jewish magic has never been anything but the invocation of the benefic powers through the vehicle of the holy names of God and his angels. The Talmud was the first to make a distinction between black & white magic; the black variety was forbidden by the Bible in a number of places under penalty of death. So-called white magic, the variety which allowed the employment of sorcery to further religious needs, was in many cases condoned."

To understand more, continue on page 7, as Ponce shares that the early Christians referred to the Jews as master magicians, due to the strange ways of Judaism. In fact, after Moses killed the Egyptian by Hekau (words/sounds of power), he had to flee, as the pharoah would realize he was the one foretold to come, as the Hebrews/Jews were known for mastering the art of Heka & were referred to as a Hekay (a master of sound vibrations).

Let's back up to the statement shared by Ponce. He says the dark or black kind was forbidden, even to the penalty of death. Does anybody recognize this? Well, in the OT, it is found in Exodus 22:18.
In the KJV it is recorded as "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
However, in the RSV, it is, "You shall not permit a sorceress to live."
In the LT version, it is the same, which is odd, as I am sure George Lamsa (LT is Lamsa Translation from the Aramaic Peshitta), would have caught it. I will have to doublecheck his book, one friend donated to my library- 'Old Testament Light'. Lamsa touches here & there on misunderstood portions of the scriptures.
And I will have to look for the volume of the 'The Interpreter's Bible (12 volume set) that has Exodus & see if they found more understanding of this verse.
You see, in the IV Bible or JST, for some odd reason, Joseph Smith alterred it to, "Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live."

What gives here? One Jewish researcher found that this term or word used in this scripture is not a "witch", but refers to an evil sorcerer or sorceress who commits murder (or better yet,) commits to doing it to reap benefits for themselves.

It is interesting that Joseph Smith replaced witch with murderer. This reflects the true sayings in the Book of Mormon concerning this, or I should say a deeper understanding of what was actually being touched upon. The soothsayers & such, also concern those who seek to be held as of high, for themselves, having sought to get gain or praise. These are those whose priestcrafts have taken many off the path and spread great falsehoods.

Perhaps more now can be understood by the NT saying: as to many having the form of godliness, yet denying the power thereof.

Quinn, in his findings of research, lists that there was found to be 4 levels as to categories of magic on page xvi. And that the Age of Reason has reduced those to 3. See page 133 of the 1987 HB of EM&MWV. That would be pages xxxi, 158, plus 186 of the 1998 enlarged & revised xxxi, 158, plus 186. The second level was Theurgick,which was associated with knowing the names of angels.

Perhaps you can now see the potential which lies ahead in the mysteries to be revealed spoken of in D&C (CoC-RLDS 98:12d-e/ LDS 101:93-95):
"What I have said unto you, must needs be,that all men may be left without excuse; that wise men and rulers may hear and know that which they never considered; thatI may proceeed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work. That men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God."
A portion near the end of Isaiah 29 focuses on this, even more so the IV Isaiah 29 of Joseph Smith (JST), and the expanded version in the Book of Mormon in 2nd Nephi.

Yes Niemand, I was going to note that it was not "crying" mirror but scrying, or the old spelling skrying. Joseph of Egypt used a dark, tarnished silver cup to skry (scry) with.

As noted earlier by Ponce, the scriptures are focused upon warning that this art is not be used selfishly, to harm others, or to get personal gain.

I used to wear an Indian necklace I bought in 1978 at "Indian Country" right outside of Meteor Canyon in Arizona. In fact, later it was used in the movie "Starman" with Jeff Bridges & Karen Allen. It may have changed over the years, but they go inside the dome- "Indian Country". Anyway, the necklace reflects the Bird Tribes, of which this one was orange which is associated with the FireBird or "Phoenix". I wore this one until it wore out, then I wore the other (as I bought a pair). Interesting thing, as you associate an item with positive aspects, it radiates not only a reinforcing concept, but almosat a force field protecting you. In my work, back in 1990-1992, I worked for a an oilfield supply company. I was out delivering a set of huge air tongs (used for tightening or unscewing pipe on a rig over the well). As I was in the back of old "Blue" (a pickup), since my boss borrowed my new work truck for a project with his wife, a yell came out from up high (no, it was not God), from a worker up high on the workover rig, It seems a rigging broke free & was falling. Every worker instantly was or had vanished. I was thru with whatever I was doing, and had just hopped off the tailgate. In less than 10 seconds the massive metal came down right where I had been, crushinf the fender inside the pickup bed about 1/3rd. As one guy at workj noted, had I been under it & it came down on me, my hard hat would be about my knees (as he was describing how powerful it would have crushed me). Anyways, several instances occurred in the same manner. My two co-workers stated they had to get a necklace like mine as it seemed to protect me from harm. It is one thing when you notice. But it is in a higher league when others notice it as well.

As to peepstones, I have a pile of them. But I have one very special, as later in the day of April 6, 1990 as I attending the groundbreaking of the spiral "Temple" of CoC-RLDS in Independence, I arrived at Tower Hill at Adam-ondi-Ahman about 3 to 3:30 PM. It had been very cold with a strong chilling to the bone wind. I felt I had been summoned there for some reason. As I walked over to the end of Tower Hill, I walked to the edge facing south. As south is where the light is, and is also associated with Michael. So as I crouched down wondering why I was called here, the wind died out & warm sun felt good, completely different from the way it had been. I did what I call a little ritual for "Summoning the Inner Voice". Just as I came out of it, the Inner Voice blurted out, "There is a peepstone on the hill, retrieve it."

Imagine my surprise, as I had expected nothing like this, as to why I was here. OK, so be it. After about an hour scouring around, none werte found. Slightly frustated, I still wondered, but on the trail back to the rental car, lo & behold, I spotted one on the ground. Sure enough, it was a peepstone. I have preserved it to this day, until the time I am to use it. Oh, I might add, that in a similar situation, Joseph Smith was also directed to his major chocolate peepstone, of which he saw and its location via looking into Sally Chase's "glass".

I also have built what is called an Enochian scrying mirror from instructions. But I modified it & shared with the author the reasons for my modifying it. There is a certain ritual for opening & securing your operation of the mirror, for your protection. However, in this case, if you understand the reasons behind it all, then you know how to "break the rules" yet still operate safely. I have a simple inset door with a silver locking door knob, and thus I unlock the door & lock it back up using the Enochian words (tones) of ODO (open) & ALLAR (close or seal). I have yet to use it for true skrying. But I have used it to invoke dreams or visions when I need assistance on something. It has not failed. Talk about vivid dreams or visions, they are just as real, as me sitting here currently typing this up right now. Can this instrument be used for negative purposes? Absolutely, just like your car can be used for driving into others. But it can be used for good, such as going to work, providing income for food to feed your family or for taking someone to run errands to assist them. It is a vehicle, just as you are. YOU MUST CHOOSE as to which end it will be applied, as there is an OPPOSITION IN ALL THINGS.

In summation, many do not know it, but in the Middle Ages, Jews who were being persecuted, helped to protect those of Wicca (White Witchcraft), who were also being persecuted & killed or tortured.

In this manner, look around, politics currently are evolving this into a society of judgement & vengeance, because somebody has riled them up enough in their emotions to have them overcome to lashing out in hideous ways. Will you too allow yourself to be a party to this?

What is it Yoda spoke of, as to fear & anger, it leads to the dark side. Jesus in AG 92:10-12, states that two sturdy asses bind the will of man- Fear & Unbelief. When these two are turned aside, man will know no bounds.

For research on skrying, see Raymond Moody's research into mirror gazing & the "Theater of the Mind", be it in his books or in length, in the special titled "Ancient Prophecies: 2" which aired first on NBC in November 1994. The DVD can be found on Ebay.

Nah His mom talked about the Faculty of Abrac and all that stuff too.

[RaVaN]

@ Neimand

Yes, the teraphim I use misspells the words I type all the time, and i know it.

@ JohnnyL
"Knowing or even using esoteric/ unaccepted/ weird knowledge/ superstition is not the same as evil/ wicked practices."

I would say being deceived can be a problem for those around you and others. So take Uriel's machine in the Ethiopia book of enoch for an example. There are alot of people that would have and still do condemn those that use it. For me, I consider it a corrupted book with some truth. My main interest is Uriels machine. When reading it years ago I realized that the division of hours in that book denotes a line of latitude. The 48th to be exact either in the northern or southern hemisphere which happens to be close enough near me that I could in fact build this device.
Uriel's machine is an observational calendar. (I am likely to ramble on this topic) So who knows much about how we measure time? The fact is that we do it poorly, most people neither care nor know how long the length of a day is but know it is arbitrary and inaccurate..the same goes for a year and we reset (or did) our calendars every 8 years by the movement of venus. Anyhow, observational clocks/calendars is the best timepiece for marking the passage of through the year. Why is this important some may ask and knowing the important dates for planting, growing, harvesting, and usable solar units keeps people fed. This is why I care about an accurate observational calendar. It doesn't matter how good I am at tracking dates, this device does alot of important things and all you need is a clear horizon, poles or rocks to measure, and know how to place them. Is this a magical device? It's not that dissimilar to "medicine wheels" of the native Americans which were observational calendars as well. This device can be adapted to any area. Observation isnt good enough in this modern world we live in though because of the differences between day and night as well as time zones and you can't use it to project the future or the past beyond the year you are in at the time because of the fractional time that constantly changes...amazing thing that, what we call modern time is a lie and arbitrary(time measured only to men anyone). Time is the order in which events happen as observed and can(like many things) only be approximated for a whole long list of reasons. I know the value in marking time and have constructed various sun clocks and other devices learning these principles. These principles are incredibly simple, and is also why I am of the thought that the liahona was just a spherical astrolabe or similiar. It all starts with a couple of sticks and observation and time. Now, it doesn't matter if you want to believe in flat earth or a spherical one...anyone can make this and do this.
Does this make the book of enoch true? People need to work on definitions. Am I making altars or what not? It is just a useful thing. It makes it true you can make this...and I have run out of time for now.

[Lynn]

John,

Can you spot me a source to check out? Or point me in a direction if'n it has been awhile running into it. Appreciate it!

Abrac I have never heard of, but Abraxas, yes.

I found this & will check into it, but I am sure Joseph senior probably shared here & there.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ?rdt=53697>

Again, I appreciate it!

[RaVaN]

Okay, back to time. I am basically saying that time as we measure it is arbitrary and an approximation. It doesn't matter if you use a timber or stone monument or an digital clock. It is a useful thing since time is fleeting and incredibly valuable thing. Money represents time stored just to illustrate my point. Time as we measure it only works by belief. Most people are deceived as to what a day or a year even is in truth or even care due to the indoctrination received to schooling. It is still only just a thing neither good nor evil. The problem arises when we use this thing to exert unrighteous dominion on others. So, going to church. You have a time and place defined where you go to worship your god with others. It's an arbitrary time, based on the traditions of men...since what day is (insert whatever random holy day)? Yet there are those that will judge a person's righteousness based on attendance, tardiness, and/or placement in the building. People will teach others to hate their neighbor or look at them as less than based on an arbitrary point and time. People will essentially risk life and limb for a trauma response trained into them and judge others for not doing the same. Me, I know you dont need a time or a place to worship God, it should be constant and unwavering...like faith. I fail at this like everyone else, but I k ow this. This looking for the magic is a waste of time and I speak from experience having been on of those lookers. The scriptures are just so clear on this. Prayer is the most powerful tool we have in our lives. There is no magic to it, just speak to God and he hears. Imagine that. There is no place he hears you better other than where you are. The silly rituals we employ to empower our prayers are just extra fluff and often shows our lack of faith.

Judging someone for who he was, rather than who he is now tends to be another trap we fall into more times than not, and I am just as guilty of this. I dont really care about what people have in there pockets, it is more important with what was in their heart. I know this much though, the book of mormon is just a light of truth and a true testimony of Jesus Christ. So much amazing truth.

[John Tavner]

John,

Can you spot me a source to check out? Or point me in a direction if'n it has been awhile running into it. Appreciate it!

Abrac I have never heard of, but Abraxas, yes.

I found this & will check into it, but I am sure Joseph senior probably shared here & there.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ?rdt=53697>

Again, I appreciate it!

"... I shall change my theme for the present but let not my reader suppose that because I shall pursue another topic for a season that we stopt our labor and went <​at​> trying to win the faculty of Abrac drawing Magic circles or sooth saying to the neglect of all kinds of buisness we never during our lives suffered one important interest to swallow up every other obligation but whilst we worked with our hands we endeavored to remmember the service of & the welfare of our souls..."

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 44-1845/40

From what I've gathered the faculty of abrac deals with The tradition, training, and techniques of commanding spirits and demonology.

[Lynn]

A lot of people do not understand how the brain, the mind, and certain symbols or paths drawn, seen, or "walked" affects them. The brain works like (or similar) a "pattern feed" in comparison to a valve body in an automatic transmission (AT). You change the feeds & you alter the outcome, or the output (the end results).

For instance, the manufacturers create & install a valve body plate in the AT that gives an output which alters the shifting from a lower gear to a higher gear. It makes a sluggish & smooth shift. But for those of us that know of such things, a "shift kit" by B&M allows the shift to become crisper, and more sudden, which in effect creates a faster shift, and less wear on the AT. But many people prefer the nice, smoother shift. B&M also makes the next step which is even more so compared to the lighter version of the "shift kit". It is called a "trans-pack" kit. It is even more sharper in shifting, and allows total control. Believe me when I say much more powerful. I put one in my first 1972 Chevy p/u & 1st gear would hold in automatic (Drive) until 45 MPH. When it shifted, the front end would rise & it would rip the tires in a powerful shift to 2nd gear. Plus I had a mechanical secondary on a Holley spread bore, which meant direct control of fuel distribution. No slow & sluggish vacuum controlled kicking in the secondary throats. With throttle still floored, it would shift into 3rd gear (while in Drive) at 85 MPH & once again, the front would lunge up & again, rip the tires in that shift.

I do not know if you or others have ever heard of what they refer to as "walking the labyrinth". I participated in one back in the early 1990s. By "walking the labyrinth" it seems to rework or rewire pattern feeds, be it in the brain, or in the Mind (higher spiritual angle). It opens or expands these circuits or pattern feeds.

It is connected to what used to be called "creative visualization" using images which in essence, almost blurs you out, but meant to stimulate brain or Mind activity. I have one book that has many images of such.

In comparison to that back in the mid-1980s, a modern day version comes to the forefront. I am sure you know of the QR code. a unique pic of a glyph of sorts. To the standard look, it is interpreted one way, but using it with technology, it links you to a certain site or information. In a sense, it is a "pattern feed".

But people never think of the deeper implications or workings. They just assume it does what it does & never think about it. But to the thorough researcher, or the scientist, they see or understand much more of it.

To what I am sharing, is that magic circles, sigils, seals, and images of many cultures, are merely old QR codes for creating mind shifts.

Take for instance, the Hebrew glyphs. It has been found that these are in essence shadowgrams & hand gestures, in a specific pattern or unfoldment. See the works of Stan Tenen (physicist & pattern recognizer) & the Meru Foundation's findings. See GML ("Geometric Metaphors of Life" video, or his book- 'The Alphabet That Changed the World').

Another example in a similar avenue, is that the Enochian glyphs are described as to their shapes, in the Essenes' Treasure Scroll. Many think it is a map leading to earthen treasures, but not so. Instead, it is taking one on a treasure hunt to rediscover the Enochian glyphs, also known as the Enochian or Angelic language & Alphabet.

So many dismiss the ancient ways of connecting to the Higher Mind, thinking they are superstition or even negative. Hermes/Thoth once stated that the Egyptian language was not just a language, but its speech had power behind it. They simply were not just hollow words. See passage quoted of Asclepius in 'The Egyptian Hermes' by Garth Fowden (1986 HB & 1993 PB), p.37. This also touches on sounds & intonations. The Atlanteans referred to this as "Sonics". The Egyptians had a term for it- "Hekau" (sacred words/sounds of power). In the Law of One series, it is spoken of as "sound-vibration-complexes". Moses was taught in this, but being a Hebrew (as Hebrews & Jews were noted as being) were known to be masters of this "art". Moses was learned in the wisdom of the Egyptians, in word & deed (in hekau & its powers), which included Magick, the Higher Science or Understanding. Refer to Acts 7:22. It is also implied as to Jesus in Luke 24:18 as it uses the same terminology as was used in Acts 7:22. Most never realize it, but think of how many Hebrews/Jews were sent to Egypt. Why? What was the purpose? Jesus & John the Baptist (not just as children, but later before their Jewish ministry), Moses, Abraham, Joseph of Egypt, and the list goes on.

As it is stated, there is nothing new under the Sun, it was already of old. Enoch, be it in the IV added portion to Genesis (JST), or Moses of the Pearl of Great Price. Enoch is also noted as being given this "language", which was most powerful. In the Book of Mormon, the understandings implied, by using "Brother of Jared/Joktan in the OT, who was Peleg in the OT, that names/words had powers & avoiding direct access to those sounds/names/sonics.

Nikola Tesla also discovered some of this "art" in vibrations or resonance. He almost brought down the very building he & his workers were in, in one experiment. The walls of Jericho fell by way of harmonics. In modern days (last century), one bridge was demolished (collapsed) due to this. Trying to think if this was in Christopher Dunn's book (2024) , or David Wilcock's book (2013).

OK, I know, I branched off a bit, but it was to show that sometimes we misunderstand the past references, and not realizing the current methods as being the same.

[Lynn]

The book I was thinking of back in the mid 1980s was 'Magical States of Consciousness'. I have a copy somewhere. Well, I could not quite reach out & up to see if it was where it was supposed to be. It uses "mandalas" or magical images. And mandalas are also used extensively in the Far East.