The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

Being There wrote: November 24th, 2024, 5:43 pm
The type that mostly cared about preparing physically, and wanting to group with those same type, like everything you think you need to survive what's coming. Like the perfect set up - place to live - to grow things - food water etc. etc..
That is how I have been (and still am to a increasingly lesser amount) but I am and have been trying to move past that to more important things. I still want to exercise sound judgment and be as prudent as possible, etc., but I can see that without being fully guided by the Spirit, all the physical preps in the world (and being completely dependent upon the arm of flesh) won't get it done, and won't actually matter, because in the end it's all about the Who -- who you are (an actual child of God, born in the Spirit?), and who you're with.

For a long time (decades), I was all about trying to be in the best location, and have the best set-up, etc., but I have reached a point where I am willing to compromise on all of that (within reason -- I am not yet ready to take up residence at Riverbed Ranch) in order to focus on the Who, and be in closer proximity to, and part of, a like-minded community.

JohnnyL
Posts: 10405

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by JohnnyL »

tmac wrote: October 30th, 2024, 7:31 pm
Sarah wrote: October 30th, 2024, 7:16 pm
What would you like them to do?
I don't personally care what they do. They have no accountability to me. But if they claim to be actual PSRs, etc., I would like to see them do what God would have them do, and to bear fruit that clearly demonstrates that is what they are doing.

Regardless of the unpopularity of it, I have a hard time imagining that, at a minimum, God would not have them pushing-back against the World -- much like A.Z. Adams does in the blog post linked in the OP of this thread.. Of the real prophets that I've ever been aware of (in the scriptures), they called Babylon for what it was -- instead of pandering and going awhoring with Babylon.

But just as a pretty simple measuring stick, what is one of the single biggest themes of the BoM? Secret Combinations? Do they exist today? When was the last time these guys talked about that? Why?
So you're certain that they aren't doing what God wants them to do, correct?

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 7:09 pm
So you're certain that they aren't doing what God wants them to do, correct?
I'm not certain of anything. Are you?

JohnnyL
Posts: 10405

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by JohnnyL »

tmac wrote: November 24th, 2024, 7:41 pm
JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 7:09 pm
So you're certain that they aren't doing what God wants them to do, correct?
I'm not certain of anything. Are you?
Yes. Experience and the Spirit can do that--for anyone.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 8:23 pm
Yes. Experience and the Spirit can do that--for anyone.
Perhaps.

But in my considerable experience, and to the extent the Spirit has done anything for me, both the Spirit and my experience have apparently led me to different conclusions, and in different directions than they apparently have for you -- which has always made me apprehensive of your seemingly dogmatic, so-called certainty. How do you account for that?

In my own case, the more I learn, the less I "know." In the end, the combination of experience and the Spirit have led me away from most one-size-fits-all conclusions and/or approaches. At this point, virtually the only thing(s) that I do believe have essentially universal, one-size-fits-all application are the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, as referenced in the Declaration of Independence, and previously understood to a much larger degree than they are now.

But, this thread is a good starting point on that score: viewtopic.php?t=76496

And, likewise on that score, in contrast to many of the conclusions that dogmatic certainty in Mormon paradigms might lead one to, I will again make reference to Thomas Jefferson, who penned that phrase ("to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, . . We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . . ."), and pose the same question(s) here, that I have repeatedly posed elsewhere, where people have likewise been inclined towards dogmatic certainty with respect to so-called "moral" issues: viewtopic.php?t=76646&start=50
Last edited by tmac on November 25th, 2024, 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

JohnnyL
Posts: 10405

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by JohnnyL »

tmac wrote: November 25th, 2024, 4:09 am
JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 8:23 pm
Yes. Experience and the Spirit can do that--for anyone.
Perhaps.

But in my considerable experience, and to the extent the Spirit has done anything for me, both the Spirit and my experience have apparently led me to different conclusions, and in different directions than they apparently have for you -- which has always made me apprehensive of your seemingly dogmatic, so-called certainty. How do you account for that?

In my own case, it has led me away from most one-size-fits-all conclusions and/or approaches. At this point, virtually the only thing(s) that I do believe have essentially one-size-fits-all application are the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, as referenced in the Declaration of Independence, and previously understood to a much larger degree than they are now.

But, this thread is a good starting point on that score: viewtopic.php?t=76496

And, likewise on that score, in contrast to many of the conclusions that dogmatic certainty in Mormon paradigms might lead one to, I will again make reference to Thomas Jefferson, who penned that phrase ("to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, . . We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . . ."), and pose the same question(s) here, that I have repeatedly posed elsewhere, where people have likewise been inclined towards dogmatic certainty with respect to so-called "moral" issues: viewtopic.php?t=76646&start=50
Before I reply, I realized that there might be a misunderstanding.
My certainty is NOT that they are all doing exactly what God wants them to do; in fact, I'm convinced that that is not the case. I don't know how much what you replied, was centered toward that.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

One thing that I do find genuinely interesting is that of all the very best, most capable Mormons that I am most well acquainted with personally, it seems like all of them seem to be most interested in functioning essentially as lone wolves, with just their immediate family. Not a single one of them seems to be seriously interested in community, collaboration, and/or really working together.

I contrast that with the Heritage Ministries approach, as reflected in the passage I have quoted before, from A.Z. Adams, about Heritage Ministries, that he recently wrote to me:

"Beyond taking the Spirit as our guide, and living life in the Spirit generally, finding like-minded brothers and sisters with whom we can unite, collaborate, trust, and share our lives forms the strongest 'ark' of safety for the storms ahead. It is less about where you are or what you have and more about who you are with—and who has your backs. . . That said, practical temporal measures are not actually the core of our efforts and concerns. Much of what we do in the practical sphere is aimed at freeing ourselves from the dark spiritual forces that cloud the mind, confuse the heart, and lead God’s people astray into the Babylonian system. Practical temporal preparations will ultimately have limited value and will ultimately fail if we do not know how to love one another, remain faithful, hear the Spirit’s voice, and function as a coordinated community of believers, led by the Spirit, rather than as isolated individuals . . . . "
Last edited by tmac on December 5th, 2024, 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mudflap
Posts: 4119
Location: The South
Contact:

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by mudflap »

tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 3:55 am One thing that I do find genuinely interesting is that of all the very best, most capable Mormons that I am most well acquainted with personally, it seems like all of them seem to be most interested in functioning essentially as lone wolves, with just their immediate family. Not a single one of them seems to be seriously interested in community, collaboration, and/or really working together.

I contrast that with the Homestead Heritage approach, and something A.Z. Adams, from Homestead Heritage, recently wrote to me:

"Beyond taking the Spirit as our guide, and living life in the Spirit generally, finding like-minded brothers and sisters with whom we can unite, collaborate, trust, and share our lives forms the strongest 'ark' of safety for the storms ahead. It is less about where you are or what you have and more about who you are with—and who has your backs. . . That said, practical temporal measures are not actually the core of our efforts and concerns. Much of what we do in the practical sphere is aimed at freeing ourselves from the dark spiritual forces that cloud the mind, confuse the heart, and lead God’s people astray into the Babylonian system. Practical temporal preparations will ultimately have limited value and will ultimately fail if we do not know how to love one another, remain faithful, hear the Spirit’s voice, and function as a coordinated community of believers, led by the Spirit, rather than as isolated individuals . . . . "
I find that the current organization of the church is that of a top down organization, with one man (RMN) setting the tone and direction. There is a hive-mind mentality that goes along with this. the lone wolves are inherently discouraged under this type of organization, so they remain "alone".

I don't think the millennial church will be organized this strictly based on the scripture that says no one will need to preach "know ye the Lord" because everyone will already "know the Lord". It makes me think the church structure will be much more "organic" - everyone will "do their own thing" - maybe we won't even need a church structure (why would we at that point if everyone is "of one heart and one mind"?).

Anyway, I don't know how "we get there" from "here" - I don't know how we get to the point we don't need a top down structure. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime.

But I definitely feel like the current structure of the church strongly opposes "individualism", and I don't think this is how Zion or the millennial era will be organized.

User avatar
Sarah
Posts: 7261

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Sarah »

JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 5:47 pm
Sarah wrote: October 30th, 2024, 7:15 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: October 30th, 2024, 6:43 pm

Yes. Moroni also said that. And Joseph Smith. Tell me again, what new revelation Nelson has brought to the table. How are we better prepared by following him versus studying the scriptures? Tank top garments? Or maybe reversing Monson's use of the term "Mormons"? Amazing stuff, right there. Continuing restoration no doubt!
Is every prophet required to tell something new? Their main job is to cry repentance and President Nelson has certainly done that, plus given us some new policies to chew on. He also is emphasizing the teachings we need to focus on. What would you like that he hasn't given you?
Prophets are NOT required to tell us "something new"--just "whatever God wants us to hear or know". I think that is sometimes the reason for "itching ears" and being led astray; everyone wants to hear "the latest new thing", as Paul wrote about.

What new revelation? Check the General Conference talks, they're there.
President Nelson has given a lot, in lots of incredible, powerful talks.
Exactly!

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

mudflap wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 8:11 am
tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 3:55 am One thing that I do find genuinely interesting is that of all the very best, most capable Mormons that I am most well acquainted with personally, it seems like all of them seem to be most interested in functioning essentially as lone wolves, with just their immediate family. Not a single one of them seems to be seriously interested in community, collaboration, and/or really working together.

I contrast that with the Homestead Heritage approach, and something A.Z. Adams, from Homestead Heritage, recently wrote to me:

"Beyond taking the Spirit as our guide, and living life in the Spirit generally, finding like-minded brothers and sisters with whom we can unite, collaborate, trust, and share our lives forms the strongest 'ark' of safety for the storms ahead. It is less about where you are or what you have and more about who you are with—and who has your backs. . . That said, practical temporal measures are not actually the core of our efforts and concerns. Much of what we do in the practical sphere is aimed at freeing ourselves from the dark spiritual forces that cloud the mind, confuse the heart, and lead God’s people astray into the Babylonian system. Practical temporal preparations will ultimately have limited value and will ultimately fail if we do not know how to love one another, remain faithful, hear the Spirit’s voice, and function as a coordinated community of believers, led by the Spirit, rather than as isolated individuals . . . . "
I find that the current organization of the church is that of a top down organization, with one man (RMN) setting the tone and direction. There is a hive-mind mentality that goes along with this. the lone wolves are inherently discouraged under this type of organization, so they remain "alone".

I don't think the millennial church will be organized this strictly based on the scripture that says no one will need to preach "know ye the Lord" because everyone will already "know the Lord". It makes me think the church structure will be much more "organic" - everyone will "do their own thing" - maybe we won't even need a church structure (why would we at that point if everyone is "of one heart and one mind"?).

Anyway, I don't know how "we get there" from "here" - I don't know how we get to the point we don't need a top down structure. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime.

But I definitely feel like the current structure of the church strongly opposes "individualism", and I don't think this is how Zion or the millennial era will be organized.
It's interesting. Your take is quite a bit different than mine. While I don't disagree that the Church opposes any individual, critical thinking, it does encourage people to focus almost entirely on themselves and their immediate families, while doing essentially nothing to encourage genuine collaboration. It is the epitome of a bunch of mostly mindless sheep just following the flock, who are likewise just following their so-called "leaders," who are actually just following the world, in this quagmire of lukewarm, worldly/materialistic mediocrity.

User avatar
mudflap
Posts: 4119
Location: The South
Contact:

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by mudflap »

tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 9:07 am
mudflap wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 8:11 am
tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 3:55 am One thing that I do find genuinely interesting is that of all the very best, most capable Mormons that I am most well acquainted with personally, it seems like all of them seem to be most interested in functioning essentially as lone wolves, with just their immediate family. Not a single one of them seems to be seriously interested in community, collaboration, and/or really working together.

I contrast that with the Homestead Heritage approach, and something A.Z. Adams, from Homestead Heritage, recently wrote to me:

"Beyond taking the Spirit as our guide, and living life in the Spirit generally, finding like-minded brothers and sisters with whom we can unite, collaborate, trust, and share our lives forms the strongest 'ark' of safety for the storms ahead. It is less about where you are or what you have and more about who you are with—and who has your backs. . . That said, practical temporal measures are not actually the core of our efforts and concerns. Much of what we do in the practical sphere is aimed at freeing ourselves from the dark spiritual forces that cloud the mind, confuse the heart, and lead God’s people astray into the Babylonian system. Practical temporal preparations will ultimately have limited value and will ultimately fail if we do not know how to love one another, remain faithful, hear the Spirit’s voice, and function as a coordinated community of believers, led by the Spirit, rather than as isolated individuals . . . . "
I find that the current organization of the church is that of a top down organization, with one man (RMN) setting the tone and direction. There is a hive-mind mentality that goes along with this. the lone wolves are inherently discouraged under this type of organization, so they remain "alone".

I don't think the millennial church will be organized this strictly based on the scripture that says no one will need to preach "know ye the Lord" because everyone will already "know the Lord". It makes me think the church structure will be much more "organic" - everyone will "do their own thing" - maybe we won't even need a church structure (why would we at that point if everyone is "of one heart and one mind"?).

Anyway, I don't know how "we get there" from "here" - I don't know how we get to the point we don't need a top down structure. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime.

But I definitely feel like the current structure of the church strongly opposes "individualism", and I don't think this is how Zion or the millennial era will be organized.
It's interesting. Your take is quite a bit different than mine. While I don't disagree that the Church opposes any individual, critical thinking, it does encourage people to focus almost entirely on themselves and their immediate families, while doing essentially nothing to encourage genuine collaboration. It is the epitome of a bunch of mostly mindless sheep just following the flock, who are likewise just following their so-called "leaders," who are actually just following the world, in this quagmire of lukewarm, worldly/materialistic mediocrity.
hmmm. that's surprising - I thought our takes were similar. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion.

I see that emphasis you mention -focusing on themselves and immediate families- I think the TBM counterargument to that would be "what about home teaching and service???" But home teaching is "assigned friendship" - very few folks would actually take the trouble to MAKE friends with someone they don't already serve in a calling with or hometeach.

mindless sheep - yeah, almost. I mean, there is no encouragement to "be an individual" - the agenda for each ward is set by the stake/area/SLC. Anyone can serve in any calling - as long as they "just follow the handbook". "all in all, they're just another brick in the wall".

Well, almost any calling - not everyone can play music. ;)

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

mudflap wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 6:19 pm
tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 9:07 am
mudflap wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 8:11 am

I find that the current organization of the church is that of a top down organization, with one man (RMN) setting the tone and direction. There is a hive-mind mentality that goes along with this. the lone wolves are inherently discouraged under this type of organization, so they remain "alone".

I don't think the millennial church will be organized this strictly based on the scripture that says no one will need to preach "know ye the Lord" because everyone will already "know the Lord". It makes me think the church structure will be much more "organic" - everyone will "do their own thing" - maybe we won't even need a church structure (why would we at that point if everyone is "of one heart and one mind"?).

Anyway, I don't know how "we get there" from "here" - I don't know how we get to the point we don't need a top down structure. Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime.

But I definitely feel like the current structure of the church strongly opposes "individualism", and I don't think this is how Zion or the millennial era will be organized.
It's interesting. Your take is quite a bit different than mine. While I don't disagree that the Church opposes any individual, critical thinking, it does encourage people to focus almost entirely on themselves and their immediate families, while doing essentially nothing to encourage genuine collaboration. It is the epitome of a bunch of mostly mindless sheep just following the flock, who are likewise just following their so-called "leaders," who are actually just following the world, in this quagmire of lukewarm, worldly/materialistic mediocrity.
hmmm. that's surprising - I thought our takes were similar. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion.

I see that emphasis you mention -focusing on themselves and immediate families- I think the TBM counterargument to that would be "what about home teaching and service???" But home teaching is "assigned friendship" - very few folks would actually take the trouble to MAKE friends with someone they don't already serve in a calling with or hometeach.

mindless sheep - yeah, almost. I mean, there is no encouragement to "be an individual" - the agenda for each ward is set by the stake/area/SLC. Anyone can serve in any calling - as long as they "just follow the handbook". "all in all, they're just another brick in the wall".

Well, almost any calling - not everyone can play music. ;)
It is interesting for me to see that essentially no other Mormon(s) I know (either personally or here on LDSFF) see this the way I do. Essentially no one sees what I see in this regard. It is genuinely disconcerting to acknowledge that I am either completely up-in-the-night, or completely alone, in my perspective(s). But it is interesting.

User avatar
Sarah
Posts: 7261

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: December 4th, 2024, 5:35 am
mudflap wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 6:19 pm
tmac wrote: December 3rd, 2024, 9:07 am

It's interesting. Your take is quite a bit different than mine. While I don't disagree that the Church opposes any individual, critical thinking, it does encourage people to focus almost entirely on themselves and their immediate families, while doing essentially nothing to encourage genuine collaboration. It is the epitome of a bunch of mostly mindless sheep just following the flock, who are likewise just following their so-called "leaders," who are actually just following the world, in this quagmire of lukewarm, worldly/materialistic mediocrity.
hmmm. that's surprising - I thought our takes were similar. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion.

I see that emphasis you mention -focusing on themselves and immediate families- I think the TBM counterargument to that would be "what about home teaching and service???" But home teaching is "assigned friendship" - very few folks would actually take the trouble to MAKE friends with someone they don't already serve in a calling with or hometeach.

mindless sheep - yeah, almost. I mean, there is no encouragement to "be an individual" - the agenda for each ward is set by the stake/area/SLC. Anyone can serve in any calling - as long as they "just follow the handbook". "all in all, they're just another brick in the wall".

Well, almost any calling - not everyone can play music. ;)
It is interesting for me to see that essentially no other Mormon(s) I know (either personally or here on LDSFF) see this the way I do. Essentially no one sees what I see in this regard. It is genuinely disconcerting to acknowledge that I am either completely up-in-the-night, or completely alone, in my perspective(s). But it is interesting.
I think plenty of saints see it the way you do. I agree with your assessment, at least in seeing that chuch members aren't united in any temporal pursuit, but each family is living, working, playing, educating themselves in Babylon rather than with each other. The saints lost that opportunity in the early days. But it's coming back when Babylon falls and we gather together.
I think when we see people lobbying the leaders for more schools for example, is one way people are seeing a need for more unity in working together.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

I got a PM from someone about this. According to them, one of the biggest reasons Mormons don't really do community is the reality that they don't really trust each other. And I think there is something to that. He said in his case, he would find it very difficult to have the level of general trust for most Mormons that he has developed for other non-Mormon friends and acquaintances. He said that he feels like Mormons are plenty willing to take advantage of each other, financially and otherwise. And as I think about it, that is certainly one of the issues.

On my list of very capable "Mormons" is a man, in his forties, who for a few years was one of my very best friends. But, for the very reason my other friend mentioned, at this point, I would be very apprehensive about attempting to do "community" with him. We parted ways when he made the very conscious decision to attempt to take serious advantage of me, and I said enough is enough. But I had been watching him take financial advantage of others for years. He had evolved to the point that he had zero qualm about it. In fact he took great satisfaction in seeing just how far he could go. And he definitely found where the limit was with me. But that's just one, anecdotal example.

The reality is, for whatever reason(s), over the course of now pushing 200 years, Mormon culture has evolved to be very self-centric, rather than community-centric. Although Orderville is often considered to be the most notable, failed example, in the very beginning of Mormon settlement of the West, there were many cooperative, collaborative efforts, including ZCMI, etc., and most early communities had collaborative cooperatives, all of which eventually went by the wayside, as worldliness and individualism took hold, and obviously gained the upper-hand. And at a certain point, obviously the Church completely quit encouraging and coordinating any real collaboration and cooperation. They abandoned community in order to embrace the World, and Globalism.
Last edited by tmac on December 5th, 2024, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Momma J
Psalm 46:10
Posts: 1969

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Momma J »

tmac wrote: December 4th, 2024, 7:37 am The reality is, for whatever reason(s), over the course of now pushing 200 years, Mormon culture has evolved to be very self-centric, rather than community-centric. Although Orderville is often considered to be the most notable, failed example, in the very beginning of Mormon settlement of the West, there were many cooperative, collaborative efforts, including ZCMI, etc., and most early communities had collaborative cooperatives, all of which eventually went by the wayside, as worldliness and individualism took hold, and obviously gained the upper-hand. And at a certain point, obviously the Church completely quit encouraging and coordinating any real collaboration and cooperation.
I too have noticed the self-centric behavior which manifests in a very high number of members who are constantly trying One-Up each other. Petty jealousy and coveting going hand in hand with gossip, in a not so thinned veil of bringing the other person down a few pegs.

User avatar
Sarah
Posts: 7261

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: December 4th, 2024, 7:37 am I got a PM from someone about this. According to them, one of the biggest reasons Mormons don't really do community is the reality that they don't really trust each other. And I think there is something to that. He said in his case, he would find it very difficult to have the level of general trust for most Mormons that he has developed for other non-Mormon friends and acquaintances. He said that he feels like Mormons are plenty willing to take advantage of each other, financially and otherwise. And as I think about it, that is certainly one of the issues.

On my list of very capable "Mormons" is a man, in his forties, who for few years was one of my very best friends. But, for the very reason my other friend mentioned, at this point, I would be very apprehensive about attempting to do "community" with him. We parted ways when he made the conscious decision to take serious advantage of me, and I said enough is enough, but I had been watching him take financial advantage of others for years. He had evolved to the point that he had zero qualm about it. In fact he took great satisfaction in seeing just how far he could go. And he definitely found where the limit was with me. But that's just one, anecdotal example.

The reality is, for whatever reason(s), over the course of now pushing 200 years, Mormon culture has evolved to be very self-centric, rather than community-centric. Although Orderville is often considered to be the most notable, failed example, in the very beginning of Mormon settlement of the West, there were many cooperative, collaborative efforts, including ZCMI, etc., and most early communities had collaborative cooperatives, all of which eventually went by the wayside, as worldliness and individualism took hold, and obviously gained the upper-hand. And at a certain point, obviously the Church completely quit encouraging and coordinating any real collaboration and cooperation.
Yes, too many people in and out of the church desperate to get ahead of their brothers and sisters, and have no problem using people as much as possible. Seems like an epidemic in our society of selfish mindsets and behaviors. If I had to work in a kitchen with a bunch of other women for example, I know exactly who in my ward and family I would be okay working with, and those who I would dread working with. Some are too controlling, manipulatuve, gossipy or negative.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

And back to the issue of "Trust," which is a complex, multi-faceted concept. It's not just a matter of who can I trust to treat me fairly in a financial/business transaction, for example, but who can I trust with confidences, and sensitive information, and/or who's judgment do I completely trust? Or, who can I completely trust to have my back? And that's not just who might be somewhat willing, but who is actually capable? In my case, I can honestly say that I can hardly think of a single Mormon whose judgment I completely trust, and there is no one who I would completely trust to have my back, both in terms of willingness and capability. I live in a small, rural community of Mormons who literally think they are the best people on the face of the earth (and that's what you hear every fast Sunday), but in my view, the only thing you can really trust is that they will always look out for number one. So Trust, in a variety of ways, is definitely an issue.

User avatar
mudflap
Posts: 4119
Location: The South
Contact:

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by mudflap »

tmac wrote: December 4th, 2024, 7:37 am I got a PM from someone about this. According to them, one of the biggest reasons Mormons don't really do community is the reality that they don't really trust each other. And I think there is something to that. He said in his case, he would find it very difficult to have the level of general trust for most Mormons that he has developed for other non-Mormon friends and acquaintances. He said that he feels like Mormons are plenty willing to take advantage of each other, financially and otherwise. And as I think about it, that is certainly one of the issues.

On my list of very capable "Mormons" is a man, in his forties, who for few years was one of my very best friends. But, for the very reason my other friend mentioned, at this point, I would be very apprehensive about attempting to do "community" with him. We parted ways when he made the conscious decision to take serious advantage of me, and I said enough is enough, but I had been watching him take financial advantage of others for years. He had evolved to the point that he had zero qualm about it. In fact he took great satisfaction in seeing just how far he could go. And he definitely found where the limit was with me. But that's just one, anecdotal example.

The reality is, for whatever reason(s), over the course of now pushing 200 years, Mormon culture has evolved to be very self-centric, rather than community-centric. Although Orderville is often considered to be the most notable, failed example, in the very beginning of Mormon settlement of the West, there were many cooperative, collaborative efforts, including ZCMI, etc., and most early communities had collaborative cooperatives, all of which eventually went by the wayside, as worldliness and individualism took hold, and obviously gained the upper-hand. And at a certain point, obviously the Church completely quit encouraging and coordinating any real collaboration and cooperation.
I think this is right. I would describe it a bit differently:

I think there's sort of a sweet spot for how much "community" folks will do, depending on the outside pressure.

It's like a balloon. If you fill it with air in a normal room, it'll keep it's shape. But if you fill it with air and send it into outer space, it'll pop. Same thing if you submerge it in the bottom of the Mariana Trench (the deepest place in the ocean). If the outside pressure is too much or too little, the balloon will explode or implode. Inside the balloon represents the need for folks to band together to ward off danger. Outside the balloon represents society's pressure to conform.

Right now, society is "rich enough" (money / resources / space / low-threat-level / etc.) that we can afford to put our parents in rest homes, all our kids have separate bedrooms, and we like the idea of single family homes. But this could change rapidly: during the great depression, living quarters became more cramped - parents moved in with the adult children, living quarters became tighter.

And then there's the Saints, who under extreme adverse conditions in hostile Indian / Utah territory banded together. But these days, "we're safe" - we don't need to rely so much on each other. This is why I think the commune idea rarely works out. I see folks all the time on alternate social media advertising 50 acres of land and wanting folks to come live in a tiny house and band together to live off the grid - and there's rarely any takers. It's because (IMO) society doesn't suck enough to require folks to stick together.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

mudflap wrote: December 4th, 2024, 6:47 pm I would describe it a bit differently:

I think there's sort of a sweet spot for how much "community" folks will do, depending on the outside pressure.

It's like a balloon. If you fill it with air in a normal room, it'll keep it's shape. But if you fill it with air and send it into outer space, it'll pop. Same thing if you submerge it in the bottom of the Mariana Trench (the deepest place in the ocean). If the outside pressure is too much or too little, the balloon will explode or implode. Inside the balloon represents the need for folks to band together to ward off danger. Outside the balloon represents society's pressure to conform.

Right now, society is "rich enough" (money / resources / space / low-threat-level / etc.) that we can afford to put our parents in rest homes, all our kids have separate bedrooms, and we like the idea of single family homes. But this could change rapidly: during the great depression, living quarters became more cramped - parents moved in with the adult children, living quarters became tighter.

And then there's the Saints, who under extreme adverse conditions in hostile Indian / Utah territory banded together. But these days, "we're safe" - we don't need to rely so much on each other. This is why I think the commune idea rarely works out. I see folks all the time on alternate social media advertising 50 acres of land and wanting folks to come live in a tiny house and band together to live off the grid - and there's rarely any takers. It's because (IMO) society doesn't suck enough to require folks to stick together.
I can't disagree with what you have said either. At this point, conditions are good enough that most Mormons don't actually feel like they really "need" God, community, or each other. I realize that BY is not very popular these days, but here's an assessment that I put some stock in:
Much like Moses leading the ancient Children of Israel out of Egypt into the barren desert wilderness, Brigham Young likewise led the Mormons into the barren, desert wilderness of the Great Basin, seeking to separate from the World, while gathering like-minded people, and depending entirely on God for survival. They settled in the barren desert because it was what has been described as the “Arm Pit of North America,” that no one else seemed particularly interested in.

It’s no wonder the Goshutes and other Native American tribes of the Great Basin were historically the poorest and most destitute of all Native Americans in North America. They lived in the most naturally inhospitable environment. It was a major chore just to survive. But almost 200 years ago the Mormons joined the starving Native Americans and settled in the Great Basin for several reasons, including the fact that at that time, it was not part of the United States; it was “The Outback,” of North America, and; it was perceived that one else wanted it -- and the Mormons wanted to go somewhere that no one else wanted, in hopes of being left alone, as they struggled to "find" themselves, and forge a relationship with God, and with each other.

According to Brigham Young, every generation has its tests, challenges, and chances to stand and prove itself. “Would you like to know what one of our toughest tests for this people will be?” He asked. “Prosperity” was his response. “The worst fear I have about this people,” he said, “is that God will bless them and they will get rich even in this barren land, then they will forget God, wax fat, neglect the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and go to hell. . . . This people can stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and will stay true to the faith. But my greater fear is that they cannot stand wealth and prosperity. . . .

At this point, almost 200 years later, we are really starting to experience that challenge, and things are really changing. Among other things, Mormons are no longer seeking to separate themselves from the world. They are actively courting the World. When I was growing up, the admonition was to "Be in the World, but not of the world." But now 50 years later, that is no longer the case. We have abandoned many of our previous fundamental teachings and ways, including what we called "Provident Living," which included productive self-sufficiency, basic preparedness, and living within our means financially, and collaborative, cooperative efforts and "community." And, we are already starting to see how that is turning out. At this point, in practice, the Mormon Church and many of its members have become almost completely "of the world." And, in my view, we have, to a large extent, allowed ourselves to become defiled by the world. Hence, among other things, this is a cautionary tale.

User avatar
tmac
Posts: 5008
Location: Reality

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by tmac »

In continuation of the previous theme(s):

Over the weekend, I was visiting with a good friend. Among other things, we discussed some of my thoughts about the merits of collaborative, like-minded community, along the lines articulated by A.Z. Adams. This friend has a large family, now including several single adult children. When we were done, he said that he could see the merits of a more collaborative, community approach, but with the way they are currently situated, they are sufficiently comfortable and content that he felt like their most realistic approach going forward was probably going to be to simply continue to do their best to lift where they stand. My response to him was the same as it is to virtually all such fathers and families that I rub shoulders with these days: But who are your children going to marry?

Having written a book about Succession Planning for Family Farmers & Ranchers, and frequently turning in rural, family agricultural circles, these are the kinds of thoughts that are often on my mind. Given my observations of the current state of the world we live in (included among other things, in the Afterword of the book), and the circles I turn in, the honest and sincere question I have for essentially all such families is: What realistic chances of successful mating do your children have, without a more proactive approach than generally exists?

On this point, we need to understand some fundamental realities. One of those realities is the fact in most cases our children and grandchildren will usually choose mates from the genetic pool that they rub shoulders in. Although Internet dating and match-making is increasingly common, and does have the ability to expand this pool, it has not necessarily proven to be any better or more successful at helping navigate this important minefield. Otherwise, one of the other primary approaches that we as parents have relied on now for several generations to help change and/or expand the genetic pool in which our children rub shoulders has been to send them off to school (college), sometimes for that reason alone, simply crossing our fingers and hoping for the best, recognizing that in that scenario their hormones will, in all likelihood, be the primary deciding factor in the whole equation, and do the rest. Unfortunately, with a corresponding 50% divorce rate, and even higher relationship dissatisfaction rate, does anyone honestly believe that approach has a solid track record for success? The record speaks for itself. Just a thought.

And once again, I will offer the quote from A.Z. Adams that has become my go-to, default sentiment at this stage of the game:

"Beyond taking the Spirit as our guide, and living life in the Spirit generally, finding like-minded brothers and sisters with whom we can unite, collaborate, trust, and share our lives forms the strongest 'ark' of safety for the storms ahead. It is less about where you are or what you have and more about who you are with—and who has your backs. . . That said, practical temporal measures are not actually the core of our efforts and concerns. Much of what we do in the practical sphere is aimed at freeing ourselves from the dark spiritual forces that cloud the mind, confuse the heart, and lead God’s people astray into the Babylonian system. Practical temporal preparations will ultimately have limited value and will ultimately fail if we do not know how to love one another, remain faithful, hear the Spirit’s voice, and function as a coordinated community of believers, led by the Spirit, rather than as isolated individuals . . . . " A.Z. Adams

In terms of stuff that clouds the mind and confuses the heart, I recently had a couple of young adult siblings trying to help me with a project. Keeping their attention was nye unto impossible, because even when we were in the thick of it, their phones were continually sounding-off, and they insisted on continually looking at their phones even when what we were doing required both hands and full attention.

On that score, I have a young Amish friend, who has seemingly always been quite enamoured with telephones, and 4-5 years ago, when he was 17-18 years-old would regularly call me from the land-line telephone in his grandfather's shop. I hadn't heard from him much for a year or two, but he recently called to catch-me-up on his life. He has since married, had a baby, and moved to a new community. He said that their new community is bursting at the seams with young Amish couples and families who are flocking to that particular community, based primarily on its looser rules regarding the use of smartphones. -- Which also reminds me of the true story about the Amish worship service that was abruptly interrupted when everyones' hidden cell phones started blaring with an Amber Alert that overrode all their attempts at silencing their otherwise hidden cell phones.

In light of A.Z. Adams' sentiment, my question is, where are our young people going to find spouses who are not already fairly fully immersed in the Babylonian system?

Otherwise, sometimes it is our own deep roots, "stuff," and comfortable temporal situations that can cloud our minds and confuse our hearts. On that score, I can think of at least a dozen good, solid, capable, diversely-located (mostly rural) productive LDS families, with successful business enterprises and/or gainful employment, who, despite perhaps having their boats rocked in one way or another, are otherwise sufficiently comfortable, content, and complacent with how they are currently situated, that they are probably more than content to simply continue their fairly independent, isolated, solitary approach of "lifting where they stand," and doing a great job of it. But, again, to put it all in clearer perspective, even if they continue doing a great job of lifting where they currently stand, once again, my question is: who are their children going to marry?

Just a little more food for thought.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
Posts: 7256

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Shawn Henry »

JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 5:41 pm JTB: when he was killed, after he did his work.
Abinadi: when he was killed, after he did his work.

The apostles are still speaking out--check out their last General Conference talks, for example.
None of ours have ever been killed except Joseph and Hyrum and Joseph never finished his work. No complete JST, no witnesses for the PoGP. He didn't even get a chance to witness for it.

Do they now die of old age after completing their work? Instead of throwing stones and arrows, their hearers now throw them birthday parties.

JohnnyL
Posts: 10405

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by JohnnyL »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2025, 9:18 pm
JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 5:41 pm JTB: when he was killed, after he did his work.
Abinadi: when he was killed, after he did his work.

The apostles are still speaking out--check out their last General Conference talks, for example.
None of ours have ever been killed except Joseph and Hyrum and Joseph never finished his work. No complete JST, no witnesses for the PoGP. He didn't even get a chance to witness for it.

Do they now die of old age after completing their work? Instead of throwing stones and arrows, their hearers now throw them birthday parties.
Hyrum and Joseph finished their work, just not on the things they were working on.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
Posts: 7256

Re: The Coming Reset and Opportunity

Post by Shawn Henry »

JohnnyL wrote: January 12th, 2025, 9:31 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2025, 9:18 pm
JohnnyL wrote: November 24th, 2024, 5:41 pm JTB: when he was killed, after he did his work.
Abinadi: when he was killed, after he did his work.

The apostles are still speaking out--check out their last General Conference talks, for example.
None of ours have ever been killed except Joseph and Hyrum and Joseph never finished his work. No complete JST, no witnesses for the PoGP. He didn't even get a chance to witness for it.

Do they now die of old age after completing their work? Instead of throwing stones and arrows, their hearers now throw them birthday parties.
Hyrum and Joseph finished their work, just not on the things they were working on.
So, you're saying the JST and the PoGP were meant to not be finished. They were meant to come about without having witnesses for them? The teaching of the Bible and the BoM that every word will be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses was somehow made void.

The Lord's word to JS that the New Translation should go forth with the BoM never happened. This New Translation wasn't a finished translation and what was done stayed with Emma and never was owned by the church.

Here's the thing though; Joseph had every opportunity to include new things in the 1844 edition of scripture, but he chose to omit all the "new teachings" we ascribe to him, and he kept the 1844 scriptures the same.

Post Reply