The Divine Intervention Election

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

In a post election article, author Don Surber writes:

"We writers will dissect FJB’s economic policies which expanded the government but also shrank paychecks and savings accounts through the inflation that expansion brought.

"But first we have to praise the Lord and thank our heavenly father for sparing Donald John Trump. As Otto von Bismarck said in admiration, “God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America.”

"America came within a quarter of an inch of losing the one man who can restore America as a constitutional republic instead of this tyranny by butter-fingered bureaucrats and men in drag.

"While I never predicted the outcome, readers knew that I had faith in the Lord and his imperfect vessel because God did not spare the man to finish second.

Here's a link to the full article: https://donsurber.substack.com/p/the-di ... dium=email

[BroJones]

"the second trump shall sound"!
Mosiah 26

[Niemand]

Now let's see what he actually does. Keep your powder dry.

[Reluctant Watchman]

“God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America.”

The BoM prophets were quite specific about how God sees this land and the people in it. He will sustain them as they turn their hearts to Him and care for those in need. He will lift their burdens as they cast off sin and wickedness. But He will not allow the pride, tomfoolery, and drunkenness to continue.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

“God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America.”

The BoM prophets were quite specific about how God sees this land and the people in it. He will sustain them as they turn their hearts to Him and care for those in need. He will lift their burdens as they cast off sin and wickedness. But He will not allow the pride, tomfoolery, and drunkenness to continue.

That's a pretty blanket statement. I find millions of American citizens who are deeply Christian and deeply righteous. At the same time I find millions of Americans who are rebellious, satanic, and involved in all kinds of treachery and evil.

Do you take down America and make the millions of good people suffer in order to punish the wicked. The Book of Mormon presents a simplistic argument (which also speaks to a simplistic and unrealistic view of human behavior and human nature) in the same way people talk about cyclical nature of societies rising and falling, but it lacks the nuance a situation like this deserves. If God can create human life with all its intricacies, is he not the surgeon with the surgical touch to do the same and deal individually with the vast diversity of evil and good?

As far as the fall of empires and cultures, that is a slow process that takes centuries to make the round, and typically requires massive majorities of evil doers to accomplish, not anywhere near a fifty fifty split. And when they fall, they don't just go away. It isn't a genocide. That's for the movies and novels. It makes for great entertainment, but societies don't commit suicide, and they aren't snuffed out. That kind of dramatic end is make believe. People keep on living and rebuilding their cultures, or innovating new approaches for their safety and security. That's what history really tells us. The Aztecs and Mayans before them didn't disappear. Their society and culture fell apart. But the people persisted in their tribes and villages and made their way. In a single year Stallin starved 4 million Ukrainians to death in the engineered famine of 1932-33. But Ukraine, by all observations didn't disappear.

[Reluctant Watchman]

“God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America.”

The BoM prophets were quite specific about how God sees this land and the people in it. He will sustain them as they turn their hearts to Him and care for those in need. He will lift their burdens as they cast off sin and wickedness. But He will not allow the pride, tomfoolery, and drunkenness to continue.

That's a pretty blanket statement. I find millions of American citizens who are deeply Christian and deeply righteous. At the same time I find millions of Americans who are rebellious, satanic, and involved in all kinds of treachery and evil.

Do you take down America and make the millions of good people suffer in order to punish the wicked. The Book of Mormon presents a simplistic argument (which also speaks to a simplistic and unrealistic view of human behavior and human nature) in the same way people talk about cyclical nature of societies rising and falling, but it lacks the nuance a situation like this deserves. If God can create human life with all its intricacies, is he not the surgeon with the surgical touch to do the same and deal individually with the vast diversity of evil and good?

As far as the fall of empires and cultures, that is a slow process that takes centuries to make the round, and typically requires massive majorities of evil doers to accomplish, not anywhere near a fifty fifty split. And when they fall, they don't just go away. It isn't a genocide. That's for the movies and novels. It makes for great entertainment, but societies don't commit suicide, and they aren't snuffed out. That kind of dramatic end is make believe. People keep on living and rebuilding their cultures, or innovating new approaches for their safety and security. That's what history really tells us. The Aztecs and Mayans before them didn't disappear. Their society and culture fell apart. But the people persisted in their tribes and villages and made their way. In a single year Stallin starved 4 million Ukrainians to death in the engineered famine of 1932-33. But Ukraine, by all observations didn't disappear.

While I believe there are many people who claim to be "deeply Christian and deeply righteous"... (which is wonderful btw)... that still won't prevent the fall of this country because what we consider "righteous" may not always be what God intended for us. The majority of those "righteous" Christians have placed their trust in the global system of economies. They don't grow their own food, they don't build their own homes, and we rarely care for or nurture the Earth. The majority of those "righteous Christians" live in large cities that overburden the land. When the economic system collapses (and it will), many will die.

[MikeMaillet]

The BoM prophets were quite specific about how God sees this land and the people in it. He will sustain them as they turn their hearts to Him and care for those in need. He will lift their burdens as they cast off sin and wickedness. But He will not allow the pride, tomfoolery, and drunkenness to continue.

That's a pretty blanket statement. I find millions of American citizens who are deeply Christian and deeply righteous. At the same time I find millions of Americans who are rebellious, satanic, and involved in all kinds of treachery and evil.

Do you take down America and make the millions of good people suffer in order to punish the wicked. The Book of Mormon presents a simplistic argument (which also speaks to a simplistic and unrealistic view of human behavior and human nature) in the same way people talk about cyclical nature of societies rising and falling, but it lacks the nuance a situation like this deserves. If God can create human life with all its intricacies, is he not the surgeon with the surgical touch to do the same and deal individually with the vast diversity of evil and good?

As far as the fall of empires and cultures, that is a slow process that takes centuries to make the round, and typically requires massive majorities of evil doers to accomplish, not anywhere near a fifty fifty split. And when they fall, they don't just go away. It isn't a genocide. That's for the movies and novels. It makes for great entertainment, but societies don't commit suicide, and they aren't snuffed out. That kind of dramatic end is make believe. People keep on living and rebuilding their cultures, or innovating new approaches for their safety and security. That's what history really tells us. The Aztecs and Mayans before them didn't disappear. Their society and culture fell apart. But the people persisted in their tribes and villages and made their way. In a single year Stallin starved 4 million Ukrainians to death in the engineered famine of 1932-33. But Ukraine, by all observations didn't disappear.

While I believe there are many people who claim to be "deeply Christian and deeply righteous"... (which is wonderful btw)... that still won't prevent the fall of this country because what we consider "righteous" may not always be what God intended for us. The majority of those "righteous" Christians have placed their trust in the global system of economies. They don't grow their own food, they don't build their own homes, and we rarely care for or nurture the Earth. The majority of those "righteous Christians" live in large cities that overburden the land. When the economic system collapses (and it will), many will die.

Exactly!

Mike

[TheChristian]

Genesis ... Abraham Intercedes for Sodom
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Abraham said to the Lord, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place. Amen ...

The devout Christians that dwell in America are surely her preserving salt at this time .............

[Cruiserdude]

Genesis ... Abraham Intercedes for Sodom
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Abraham said to the Lord, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place. Amen ...

The devout Christians that dwell in America are surely her preserving salt at this time .............

The Lord is much more merciful to us than we deserve

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think the latter half of 3 Nephi 12 to be helpful for us "Gentiles". Will the Lord preserve us in this land? Have we taught/honored the "fullness of the gospel"? Have we fully consecrated our hearts and minds to God?

———
[6] And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

[7] Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

[8] But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles -- for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

[9] And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them --

[10] And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

[11] And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

[12] And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

[13] But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

[14] And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

[15] But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

[16] Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me -- that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.

[17] And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:

[18] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

[19] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

[20] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eye of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.

[LateOutOfBed]

I personally feel Isaiah 19 is about to happen in New Egypt... errr 'Merica! Edit: Because of the election results.

[Niemand]

The devout Christians that dwell in America are surely her preserving salt at this time .............

I think so. Over here too. I knew we were in deep trouble during that lockdown... The shackles have loosened but the troubles are not over.

[MikeMaillet]

I think the latter half of 3 Nephi 12 to be helpful for us "Gentiles". Will the Lord preserve us in this land? Have we taught/honored the "fullness of the gospel"? Have we fully consecrated our hearts and minds to God?

———
[6] And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

[7] Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

[8] But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles -- for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

[9] And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them --

[10] And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

[11] And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

[12] And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

[13] But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

[14] And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

[15] But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

[16] Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me -- that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.

[17] And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:

[18] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

[19] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

[20] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eye of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.

The difference between Sodom and Gomorrah and North America (or Turtle Island) is that North America is covenanted land and this land was promised to the remnant Israelites which currently occupy the land and those remnant people that currently reside elsewhere but will be gathered to the Promised Land. The righteous people living in NA are the ones who will hear and accept the call the gather to Zion whilst the rest of the world is destroyed in wars. The Promised Land will be razed except in those locations where the righteous have gathered. These people will be protected from the storm.

Verse 10 is the one that damns us, the Gentiles. We have not accepted the fulness of the Gospel and have failed in our mission to the remnant Israelites. The title page of the Book of Mormon is rather interesting as it explains the purpose of the Book of Mormon.

Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations

The first question that comes to mind is who are the Israelites and why are they the "chosen" ones? Also, chosen for what? The answer might be in the title page in the verse above, "that they are not cast off forever." The scriptures tell me that if I am not righteous enough that I will spend a number of years in Sheol but there is the feeling here that once that term of imprisonment is over that I may get another chance to be saved. Is this the last kick at the can for the Israelites? Is this why they were so wicked in the Old Testament? If Christ does not save them, will they be cast off forever? Is this why Christ came Himself to speak to them a few thousand years ago? Is this fulfilment of the parable of the lost sheep wherein the Shepherd leaves the ninety and nine to go after the lost sheep, the Gentiles being part of the ninety and nine?

All I know is that our Lord seems very serious about the Israelites and their descendants and that we Gentiles had a specific role to play when the church was organized in the latter days; a role in which we have failed.

Mike

[MikeMaillet]

I personally feel Isaiah 19 is about to happen in New Egypt... errr 'Merica! Edit: Because of the election results.

Yes, same here. We seem to be in a state that is described in verses 2 and 3 and will soon find ourselves at verse 4.

2) I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians;
they will fight brother against brother
and neighbor against neighbor,
city against city and state against state.

3) Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within;
I will frustrate their plans,
and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists,
to mediums and witchcraft.

4) Then will I deliver the Egyptians
into the hand of a cruel master;
a harsh ruler will subject them,
says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

Mike

[MikeMaillet]

The devout Christians that dwell in America are surely her preserving salt at this time .............

Maybe but I don't think so. America is a land of promise as opposed to Sodom and Gomorrah. North America was promised to the remnant Israelites, not the Gentile Christians. Our job was to show the remnant how God lives and treats His covenant people. We have not established the new and everlasting covenant and instead went whoring for the wares of Babylon.

Mike