Defending the gospel

[cwass]

After watching Bernars talk on the brethren can not lead the members astray a family member called us and told us how relieved she was after hearing Bednar to know that she is on the right path. She was reassured. That indicates to me that people are having some inner discussion about following the brethren and Bednar put her back to sleep with all is well, Zion prospereth.

Everyone is at different points in their journey. Our family still attends church but we are well aware of agendas, false teachings and lies.

I'd say that this Connor Boyack musing is the antithesis of Bednar. I think these ideas are percolating just under the surface. That we have the responsibility to figure truth out and we should defend the gospel from outside and more importantly forces inside the church that are either knowingly or unknowingly deceiving us. What do you see as it relates to follow the brethren vs. follow your own conscience in your ward or area.

https://youtu.be/cXbib1tmCgc?si=7SsX2Q1yYA66t8Ki

[AgeOfAquarius]

After watching Bernars talk on the brethren can not lead the members astray a family member called us and told us how relieved she was after hearing Bednar to know that she is on the right path. She was reassured. That indicates to me that people are having some inner discussion about following the brethren and Bednar put her back to sleep with all is well, Zion prospereth.

Everyone is at different points in their journey. Our family still attends church but we are well aware of agendas, false teachings and lies.

I'd say that this Connor Boyack musing is the antithesis of Bednar. I think these ideas are percolating just under the surface. That we have the responsibility to figure truth out and we should defend the gospel from outside and more importantly forces inside the church that are either knowingly or unknowingly deceiving us. What do you see as it relates to follow the brethren vs. follow your own conscience in your ward or area.

I agree with you.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of cane and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translate the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

[silverado]

The brethren cannot lead us astray, there are 15, you can trust them completely. Pride and arrogance. Humans make mistakes.

[Sunflower7]

After watching Bernars talk on the brethren can not lead the members astray a family member called us and told us how relieved she was after hearing Bednar to know that she is on the right path. She was reassured. That indicates to me that people are having some inner discussion about following the brethren and Bednar put her back to sleep with all is well, Zion prospereth.

Everyone is at different points in their journey. Our family still attends church but we are well aware of agendas, false teachings and lies.

I'd say that this Connor Boyack musing is the antithesis of Bednar. I think these ideas are percolating just under the surface. That we have the responsibility to figure truth out and we should defend the gospel from outside and more importantly forces inside the church that are either knowingly or unknowingly deceiving us. What do you see as it relates to follow the brethren vs. follow your own conscience in your ward or area.

https://youtu.be/cXbib1tmCgc?si=7SsX2Q1yYA66t8Ki

I appreciated Connor Boyack for stating what I have been thinking about for the past 4 years. I want to defend the true doctrine of Christ. I don’t want to feel alone in this fight. The sad truth is that the corporate church no longer defends the Book of Mormon but defends themselves/corporation. I have seen many people try to justify or defend the brethren to the point where mental gymnastics is needed. I have continued to go to church each Sunday but I’m slowly feeling the noose tightening around what the church wants me to think or feel. I feel as though I’m being forced to stay in a tight little box and that my thoughts are not welcomed.

[cwass]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of can and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translated the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Yes the church corporate church has done plenty to discourage me and others. I try to cling to the gospel as found in the scriptures. I try to defend that gospel. Book of Mormon, Bible, Jesus Christ and I believe there is something very important about Joseph Smith to try to understand. I don't defend polygamy etc.

[cwass]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of can and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translated the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

I also understand why people leave corporate religion all together. I get that. I choose so far to engage with people and defend what I feel I've learned. I will probably be kicked out at some point and that's where this Connor boyack musing goes. It seems like he is daring someone to excommunicate him.

[Original_Intent]

Being reassured because a leader tells us that the leaders cannot lead us astray....the TeeVee tells me that they only speak the unvarnished and non-partisan truth...The snake oils salesman tells me HIS snake oil really truly will regrow limbs, etc.

Have people lost all ability at critical thinking?

[SJR3t2]

What do the LDS / Brighamites think of the prophecies of the Mighty and Strong One, how D&C LDS 85 states that he will set things in order, showing things have got against the order?
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/might ... trong-one/

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Being reassured because a leader tells us that the leaders cannot lead us astray....the TeeVee tells me that they only speak the unvarnished and non-partisan truth...The snake oils salesman tells me HIS snake oil really truly will regrow limbs, etc.

Have people lost all ability at critical thinking?

WHAT CRITICAL THINKING ARE YOU REFERRING TO? I've found people who are excellent critical thinkers, until the thinking turns to something in which they are emotionally or financially invested, and then suddenly critical think gets suspended for emotional think.

[creator]

... I want to defend the true doctrine of Christ. I don’t want to feel alone in this fight. The sad truth is that the corporate church no longer defends the Book of Mormon but defends themselves/corporation. I have seen many people try to justify or defend the brethren to the point where mental gymnastics is needed...

True. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance, unfortunately.

... I have continued to go to church each Sunday but I’m slowly feeling the noose tightening around what the church wants me to think or feel. I feel as though I’m being forced to stay in a tight little box and that my thoughts are not welcomed.

More and more people are feeling this way. I wish it was more like this:

Joseph Smith said: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (DHC 5: 340.)

[John Tavner]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of can and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translated the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Yep, In my understanding all that comes from the LDS church came from other preachers and from deep paraphrases and actual cuts straight from the Bible. As time goes on I'm more and more convinced of the fraudulent beginnings of the church- it seems Joseph did as His father hoped- He put his talents of money digging and convincing others to focusing and doing religion- His mother helped with her folk magic and Faculty of Abrac stuff- which includes peep stones etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the BoM was originally intended as fiction to explain all the mounds around them, but someone got hte idea of throwing in some God and was like "ooh, now we can make money" Why else would you try to sell the copyright to a Book that is supposedly divine. It stinks... all of it.

Meanwhile scripture still rings true with Galatians 3: 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
2 Cor 11: 3 .4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

[cwass]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of can and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translated the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Yep, In my understanding all that comes from the LDS church came from other preachers and from deep paraphrases and actual cuts straight from the Bible. As time goes on I'm more and more convinced of the fraudulent beginnings of the church- it seems Joseph did as His father hoped- He put his talents of money digging and convincing others to focusing and doing religion- His mother helped with her folk magic and Faculty of Abrac stuff- which includes peep stones etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the BoM was originally intended as fiction to explain all the mounds around them, but someone got hte idea of throwing in some God and was like "ooh, now we can make money" Why else would you try to sell the copyright to a Book that is supposedly divine. It stinks... all of it.

Meanwhile scripture still rings true with Galatians 3: 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
2 Cor 11: 3 .4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

I assume that at one time you both were believers in the restored gospel but now due to new information and lots of further research you now know the real truth? I had plenty of discussions with people telling me I believe in the wrong Jesus, etc. Joseph was a gold digger that somehow came up with the Book of Mormon. I'm open to good information and a better way. I'm just not convinced that those who once believed the main truth claims of the church and now don't believe it due to leadership issues, new information etc are happier or have a better way. It just seems as if at one time you knew the church was good and trying to be true but now you know all of its dirty secrets, making it all bad. I don't see a better way, just a bitter pill with some of the former members.

I make no defense for church leaders or false teachings. I just don't see a better way yet and I'm not giving in and saying that 50 years of church activity has made me a terrible person because I was deceived on several issues that have recently come to light. God bless anyone trying their best and hopefully we all find the way.

[John Tavner]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of can and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translated the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Yep, In my understanding all that comes from the LDS church came from other preachers and from deep paraphrases and actual cuts straight from the Bible. As time goes on I'm more and more convinced of the fraudulent beginnings of the church- it seems Joseph did as His father hoped- He put his talents of money digging and convincing others to focusing and doing religion- His mother helped with her folk magic and Faculty of Abrac stuff- which includes peep stones etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the BoM was originally intended as fiction to explain all the mounds around them, but someone got hte idea of throwing in some God and was like "ooh, now we can make money" Why else would you try to sell the copyright to a Book that is supposedly divine. It stinks... all of it.

Meanwhile scripture still rings true with Galatians 3: 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
2 Cor 11: 3 .4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

I assume that at one time you both were believers in the restored gospel but now due to new information and lots of further research you now know the real truth? I had plenty of discussions with people telling me I believe in the wrong Jesus, etc. Joseph was a gold digger that somehow came up with the Book of Mormon. I'm open to good information and a better way. I'm just not convinced that those who once believed the main truth claims of the church and now don't believe it due to leadership issues, new information etc are happier or have a better way. It just seems as if at one time you knew the church was good and trying to be true but now you know all of its dirty secrets, making it all bad. I don't see a better way, just a bitter pill with some of the former members.

I make no defense for church leaders or false teachings. I just don't see a better way yet and I'm not giving in and saying that 50 years of church activity has made me a terrible person because I was deceived on several issues that have recently come to light. God bless anyone trying their best and hopefully we all find the way.

No bitter pill with me, other than disagreement and dislike with teachings I believe prevent people from fully embracing all that Jesus paid for. I have found very little in the BoM that isn't found in the Bible, and what I have found in the BoM sometimes contradicts what is in the Bible, changing the character of God, creating doubt in the minds of those who truly love God- because they will always wonder if they "have enough faith."

The better way is Jesus. And I mean that. He is THE Way. He is THE Truth. He is THE Life.

Having the freedom to understand how mercifual and Grand God is, that Jesus gave His life to restore us back into relationship wtih God and that Grace empowers me to become better and through belief on Him, I am free from me. It's a much more joyful life. The way I have found is much more peaceful as well. I call out things on people here and sometimes say sharp things, but I'm at peace. The testimony of my life as I've turned entirely to Jesus-the one who saves and was From the beginning, not a created being, but God who came down in the flesh and set aside His divinity to live as a man, to show us how we could live and believing in that and that He did die on the cross, and sin was cursed, and then He was resurrected demonstrating God's approval, that death had no power over Him- is a message to life. That my past does not contorl me. That Sin is dead to me and if it tries to rear its ugly head in my life, I do not accept it as a part of my nature, because my nature is in Christ is transformative. There are things people can say about me that would have roused my anger a few years ago, and now I actually weep for them, not out of pity, but for them as a being, I pray for them sincerely seeking God's blessing upon them, not because it is something I"m "supposed" to do, but because I feel God's love for them.

THe Way is Christ and it is better. The LDS church has created so many hoops and twists and turns that people feel the need to do things in order to feel worthy of God's love, rather than having Faith in the only one who can make us worthy, which is Jesus Christ. He is our salvation, none other. Mormonism in general talks a lot about Jesus, but rarely do they believe Him. In fact I had a family member I spoke with recently who claimed I was using Jesus Christ as a "crutch." The one who Is God, I'm using as a crutch? My heart broke when I heard that. Members don't understand how much they don't rely upon Jesus Christ. They don't understand how much they are relying on their own works for their salvation.... How much they rely upon their leaders... How much they have faith in their religion vs Jesus Christ, lest you be confused, when you rely on Him for your salvation, works will follow, but not to feel worthy, but because I am worthy because of Him. So Yes, I have found a better Way and He is amazing!

Just to prove my point- I'll ask a question- Do you believe you are Holy, blameless and above reproach in the eyes of God? Do you believe you are pure Even as Jesus is pure?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Boyack has the same problem that 99% of Mormons do. He thinks that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What he and the rest do not realize is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is separate and apart from the Church. The Gospel can and does exist separate from the Church. The Church is a corporation run by gentiles - fallible men - from whom the Gospel will eventually be taken. The fulfilling of the times of the gentiles happens because the gentiles reject the Gospel, which is then taken to the Jews. When the Gospel is taken, the Church will still exist but without the Gospel. This proves that they are separate.

[cwass]

Boyack has the same problem that 99% of Mormons do. He thinks that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What he and the rest do not realize is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is separate and apart from the Church. The Gospel can and does exist separate from the Church. The Church is a corporation run by gentiles - fallible men - from whom the Gospel will eventually be taken. The fulfilling of the times of the gentiles happens because the gentiles reject the Gospel, which is then taken to the Jews. When the Gospel is taken, the Church will still exist but without the Gospel. This proves that they are separate.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that you didn't watch the video.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Boyack has the same problem that 99% of Mormons do. He thinks that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What he and the rest do not realize is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is separate and apart from the Church. The Gospel can and does exist separate from the Church. The Church is a corporation run by gentiles - fallible men - from whom the Gospel will eventually be taken. The fulfilling of the times of the gentiles happens because the gentiles reject the Gospel, which is then taken to the Jews. When the Gospel is taken, the Church will still exist but without the Gospel. This proves that they are separate.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that you didn't watch the video.

I turned it off after realizing he was just another apologist.

[Teancum1]

Is the LDS Church the same thing as the gospel of Jesus Christ?

If so, what part of that LDS gospel is true and what part is false?

If the brethren claim they cannot lead astray- then are they leading astray by claiming that?

If they can lead astray then in what doctrines have they led astray-?

The doctrine that is found within the Book of Mormon that supports the doctrine that is found in the Bible is the doctrine that we should hold onto. Both teach that Jesus is creator, savior, The Eternal God, the light, the Bread of life.

Sadly the Book of Mormon has been used to shoehorn in present day Mormonism, with all kinds of doctrines that are nowhere to be found in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

The two are not the same.

So in the meantime- I will use the Bible and the Book of Mormon to confirm truth.

[cwass]

Boyack has the same problem that 99% of Mormons do. He thinks that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What he and the rest do not realize is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is separate and apart from the Church. The Gospel can and does exist separate from the Church. The Church is a corporation run by gentiles - fallible men - from whom the Gospel will eventually be taken. The fulfilling of the times of the gentiles happens because the gentiles reject the Gospel, which is then taken to the Jews. When the Gospel is taken, the Church will still exist but without the Gospel. This proves that they are separate.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that you didn't watch the video.

I turned it off after realizing he was just another apologist.

That's what my point is. He makes a differentiation between the corporate church and the gospel and says that the gospel needs to be defended against those within the church. He may be an apologist on things but not so much in this one. You need to make it past the first 15 minutes when he gets into the better content.

On a separate note, it appears to me that once you have made the decision to leave the church, anyone who says anything positive about the church gets shouted down. Once you leave, you have left the fight that Im talking about.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that you didn't watch the video.

I turned it off after realizing he was just another apologist.

That's what my point is. He makes a differentiation between the corporate church and the gospel and says that the gospel needs to be defended against those within the church. He may be an apologist on things but not so much in this one. You need to make it past the first 15 minutes when he gets into the better content.

On a separate note, it appears to me that once you have made the decision to leave the church, anyone who says anything positive about the church gets shouted down. Once you leave, you have left the fight that Im talking about.

It is not possible to defend the Gospel from the corporation...at least defend it without getting excommunicated. The problem is that the Gospel as revealed by Joseph Smith began to be altered after the death of George Q. Cannon in 1901. He was the last person to know what Joseph taught and he actively taught it his entire life. I know this because I have every magazine ever published by the Church since its inception and I have studied them for the past 12 years. I know exactly when things began to change and who was primarily responsible for those changes. The morphing and altering of the Gospel began under Heber J. Grant. He had the Lectures on Faith removed from the D&C as companion reading in 1921. That is when the teachings on faith began to be watered down. Grant made a deliberate move away from healing by faith to become more in line with the world's education. In that same year, Grant also stopped re-baptisms for health instituted by Joseph. "With improvements in modern medical science and Mormonism’s more general integration into the larger society, Church leaders began to avoid ritualistic practices that, in turn, appeared increasingly magical." (They Shall Be Made Whole, p 105)

In 1928, Grant stopped the practice of women giving blessings despite Joseph's teachings in 1842. As reported by Eliza R. Snow, after quoting Mark 16:16-18, Joseph said, ".No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils, &c, should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on." Joseph then went on to teach the women how to give blessings using consecrated oil.

Two other teachings of Joseph went by the wayside after Cannon's death. Joseph's number one subject to teach was the gift of the discerning of spirits coupled with everything about evil spirits. After Cannon's death, the discerning of spirits was correctly taught only 2 times, once in 1918 by Hyrum G. Smith and in 1956 by Marion G. Romney. In the 1930s, the discerning of spirits morphed into just discernment, and it continued to morph into what the Church teaches today. What is taught today bears little resemblance to what Joseph revealed. As for evil spirits, that began fading out in the late 1920s until today, nothing more than a very mild, non-threatening mention of Satan is made.

Another very detrimental change is repentance. Rusty says to repent daily. Here's what Joseph said about that. "Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 148) The impression given by Rusty is that with daily repentance comes daily forgiveness. In other words, you can look at porn and then repent later that day, and you get a clean slate. Then you can look at porn again the next day, repent, and get another clean slate. Here's what the D&C has to say about that. "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." (Doctrine and Covenants 82:7) If you go by what the Church teaches for faith and repentance, you're going to hell.

My wife and I have tried and tried and tried to teach these things, but I've been told to shut up and follow the prophet. My wife and I have been ostracized, marginalized, and ignored by the good Mormons for trying to get out the truth. There is more deception and altering that I can point out, but I don't have time.

[cwass]

Christ was marginalized and he tried to correct false teachings..

[Chip]

New song about polgamy based on "Praise To The Man":

[Telavian]

New song about polgamy based on "Praise To The Man":

I have noticed that because the evidence is inconclusive, then the anti-polygamy side is now degrading the pro-polygamy side. They basically are making it look so absurd and silly.

Joseph taught absurd and silly things, yet polygamy is the one hill people want to die on.

[PeacefulProtests]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of cane and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translate the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Its designed this way on purpose. Equally balanced on both sides. God Cannot compel anyone to believe other wise your agency would be undermined. He wants us to Choose

From the Book The God who weeps

"So must reason work with will to fashion understanding. The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true and which we have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true. There must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, in order to render the choice more truly a choice, and therefore the more deliberate, and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. An overwhelming preponderance of evidence on either side would make our choice as meaningless as would a loaded gun pointed at our heads. The option to believe must appear on one's personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension"

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

It's typically not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water, but on so many truth claims the church-baby isn't a baby at all, it's a fraud. As the evidence piles up, it becomes harder and harder not to pull the curtain back and examine the case for fraud.

The first vision was the appearance of an angel. It was only Jesus. It was Jesus and God the Father.

The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated is an authentic first person account. The scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was translated was a funeral text.

Joseph Smith was the first person to correctly crack the Egyptian language code. Joseph Smith falsely created an egypation language alphabet that had nothing to do with Egyptian as per the Rosetta Stone translation cracked by French linguists concurrently with Joseph Smith's own cracking of the Egyptian code.

Blacks are cursed because they are descendants of Cane. There is no curse of cane and blacks are not cursed because of the color of their skin.

Joseph Smith was a treasure digger. Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger.

Joseph Smith used a "peep" stone to find treasure on a least 18 treasure digs between 1820 and 1827. Joseph Smith used a peep stone to translate the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon, as per eye witness testimony of scribes, was a word for word translation of the actual plates of gold. The Book of Mormon was not a word for word translation of the gold plates, but rather, an inspired presentation of the content on the gold plates given to the mind of the translator through revelation.

The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was necessary for the establishment of the church in 1830. The account of John the Baptist and later Peter James and John was created from the mind of Sidney Ridden and added to the church historical claims around 1838-1840 to bolster claims of authenticity.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.

Joseph Smith claimed God told him to practice polygamy and he resisted until an angel threatened him with the sword. Joseph Smith claimed he only could find one wife.

Joseph Smith received the temple endowment as revelation. Joseph Smith lifted the endowment from the masons.

Joseph Smith claimed the temple endowment was the restoration of the ancient Jewish Temple ceremony. The Ancient Jewish Temple rite were focused entirely on animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with the LDS rite---the masonic rite was created in the early 1700s.

According to Joseph Smith the temple rite can not be altered in anyway. The temple rite has been changed significantly over the past nearly 200 years.

The LDS temple rite is about marriage for eternity. The temple rite is about polygamous marriage.

Joseph Smith committed adultery with Fanny Alger in about 1832-1834 the live-in house keeper in the Smith home in Kirkland OH. Joseph Smith married Fanny Alger as his first polygamous wife so there was no adultery committed.

This is just for starters....

Its designed this way on purpose. Equally balanced on both sides. God Cannot compel anyone to believe other wise your agency would be undermined. He wants us to Choose

From the Book The God who weeps

"So must reason work with will to fashion understanding. The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true and which we have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true. There must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, in order to render the choice more truly a choice, and therefore the more deliberate, and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. An overwhelming preponderance of evidence on either side would make our choice as meaningless as would a loaded gun pointed at our heads. The option to believe must appear on one's personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension"

Didn’t he get that idea of the faith proposition being a fifty fifty deal from a byu devotional speech by the guy who wrote by the hand of Mormon. It was during the celebration of the birth of Joseph smith and the speech was titled lightning from heaven.