Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

For discussion of secret combinations (political, economic, spiritual, religious, etc.) (Ether 8:18-25.)
larsenb
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Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

This is such a milestone in my view, that I think it warrants a separate thread. So far, Jeff Lindsay has come out with 3 articles on this subject, starting off with an exhaustive analysis on the various secret combinations described, displayed and warned about, in the Book of Mormon. His latest article came out just today.

He is the former Chief Editor of the Interpreter Journal, A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship, whose founding editor was Daniel Peterson, from the 2012 time-frame.

A prominent feature of his articles is his references to Moroni's description and warning about them in Ether 8 and elsewhere.

In his Part 4 article, yet to be published, Lindsay says: "The importance of the modern battle to preserve liberty may become more clear in Part 4. There we will examine some calm, rational insights from those who have been close to some notable secret societies, including the scholarly work of a respected professor. Such insights may help us evaluate the Book of Mormon’s teachings and warnings and better appreciate how relevant it is for our day."

The Church, in my strongly held view is the rather incredible aggregate and variety of views and testimonies of the individual members. The leadership is important in administrating the organization and in its successful attempts to keep the membership from going off track .. . . when it does, and as long as they themselves stay on track. But the Church is primarily its congregants, their experiences, their testimonies, their efforts to do good.

Here is a link to Lindsay's latest article: Secret Combinations: A Practical Guide to the Book of Mormon’s Most Neglected Theme-Pt. 3, By Jeff Lindsay · October 28, 2024: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/secret-co ... heme-pt-3/

Here are links to his first two articles, also posted here:: viewtopic.php?p=1521843#p1521843 .

Practical Guide to the Book of Mormon’s Most Neglected Theme: Secret Combinations
By Jeff Lindsay · October 14, 2024 https://latterdaysaintmag.com/a-practic ... binations/

and

Secret Combinations: A Practical Guide to Book of Mormon’s Most Neglected Theme-Pt. 2
By Jeff Lindsay · October 18, 2024 https://latterdaysaintmag.com/secret-co ... ted-theme/

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mudflap
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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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I like how he "almost goes there" :
as long as they themselves stay on track.
:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:
38.8.41

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.

larsenb
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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :
as long as they themselves stay on track.
:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:
38.8.41

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.
This is certainly true. However, it fundamentally assumes that God can't take care of the church we need to instead.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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*Symptoms of secret combinations often include people in government becoming wealthy, sometimes debauched, and almost always expanding their power.

*Political assassinations, attempted assassinations, secret murders, or the execution of good people are often signs that secret combinations are at work.


Millionaire Brigham Young fits this perfectly. Joseph was a good man, who was in Brigham's way of having multiple affairs.

And WHO here ever FELT the spirit of God
while going through the motions of the Pre-1990 secret combination methods of taking life, which were administered by satan himself? The mobs only wanted Joseph. Brigham wanted all the brothers dead.

DC112:24-26 "Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Bringing the blood oaths of satan into the temple is blasphemy from morning to night. Thank you Brigham.

DOES NOT ANYONE SEE what the church has evolved into a ''secret cult'' secret oaths were never part of Christ's church.

RUN AWAY EVERYONE. Run as Alma did from King Noah I definitely would think about repenting of performing those oaths while attending the temple, now that you know the truth.

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Telavian
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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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CMajor wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:58 pm Millionaire Brigham Young fits this perfectly.
Joseph was a multimillionaire as well. When he died, he was millions of dollars in debt that the people had to pay off.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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CMajor wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:58 pm *Symptoms of secret combinations often include people in government becoming wealthy, sometimes debauched, and almost always expanding their power.

*Political assassinations, attempted assassinations, secret murders, or the execution of good people are often signs that secret combinations are at work.


Millionaire Brigham Young fits this perfectly. Joseph was a good man, who was in Brigham's way of having multiple affairs.

And WHO here ever FELT the spirit of God
while going through the motions of the Pre-1990 secret combination methods of taking life, which were administered by satan himself? The mobs only wanted Joseph. Brigham wanted all the brothers dead.

DC112:24-26 "Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Bringing the blood oaths of satan into the temple is blasphemy from morning to night. Thank you Brigham.

DOES NOT ANYONE SEE what the church has evolved into a ''secret cult'' secret oaths were never part of Christ's church.

RUN AWAY EVERYONE. Run as Alma did from King Noah I definitely would think about repenting of performing those oaths while attending the temple, now that you know the truth.
Brigham Young Derangement Syndrome . . . BYDS. On steroids. [Ed. added last comment]
Last edited by larsenb on October 29th, 2024, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:50 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.
This is certainly true. However, it fundamentally assumes that God can't take care of the church we need to instead.
Maybe God was OK with this 'policy'. I for one, don't presume to guess what God may undertake or support to achieve his greater purposes.

My take on this situation, as I've stated many times, is that it doesn't make much sense to me that God, the Lord, would go to all the trouble to send Lehi into the wilderness, then the 'New World', all the while nurturing prophets throughout the Book of Mormon period, to produce a book for our day, called the Book of Mormon, and bring it forth with establishing a restoration of his primitive Church, then let it drift off into irrelevance and complete incompetence just after Joseph Smith.

I think there are much broader perspectives the Lord has that we may not be privy to. Losing faith in the restoration, simply puts one who adopts this position, into a well-defined category we've been warned about.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 1:58 pm
Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:50 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.
This is certainly true. However, it fundamentally assumes that God can't take care of the church we need to instead.
Maybe God was OK with this 'policy'. I for one, don't presume to guess what God may undertake or support to achieve his greater purposes.

My take on this situation, as I've stated many times, is that it doesn't make much sense to me that God, the Lord, would go to all the trouble to send Lehi into the wilderness, then the 'New World', all the while nurturing prophets throughout the Book of Mormon period, to produce a book for our day, called the Book of Mormon, and bring it forth with establishing a restoration of his primitive Church, then let it drift off into irrelevance and complete incompetence just after Joseph Smith.

I think there are much broader perspectives the Lord has that we may not be privy to. Losing faith in the restoration, simply puts one who adopts this position, into a well-defined category we've been warned about.
So you don't want to speculate on what God would do, however you certainly just speculated on what God would do. Makes sense.

Why would God create a people just to drown them for apostasy?
Why would God create a covenant people just to force them to wander in the desert?
Why would God create a covenant people that almost immediately abandoned him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit a people who didn't recognize him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit the Nephites who would abandon him?
Why would God reveal truth to anyone when they would completely ignore it?

Your argument is why would God do something if people would just ignore it. However, this is the story of the entire human civilization. I personally think you need to rethink God and his dealings with humanity.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:16 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 1:58 pm
Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:50 pm

This is certainly true. However, it fundamentally assumes that God can't take care of the church we need to instead.
Maybe God was OK with this 'policy'. I for one, don't presume to guess what God may undertake or support to achieve his greater purposes.

My take on this situation, as I've stated many times, is that it doesn't make much sense to me that God, the Lord, would go to all the trouble to send Lehi into the wilderness, then the 'New World', all the while nurturing prophets throughout the Book of Mormon period, to produce a book for our day, called the Book of Mormon, and bring it forth with establishing a restoration of his primitive Church, then let it drift off into irrelevance and complete incompetence just after Joseph Smith.

I think there are much broader perspectives the Lord has that we may not be privy to. Losing faith in the restoration, simply puts one who adopts this position, into a well-defined category we've been warned about.
So you don't want to speculate on what God would do, however you certainly just speculated on what God would do. Makes sense.

Why would God create a people just to drown them for apostasy?
Why would God create a covenant people just to force them to wander in the desert?
Why would God create a covenant people that almost immediately abandoned him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit a people who didn't recognize him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit the Nephites who would abandon him?
Why would God reveal truth to anyone when they would completely ignore it?

Your argument is why would God do something if people would just ignore it. However, this is the story of the entire human civilization. I personally think you need to rethink God and his dealings with humanity.
A little bit of conflating going on w/some your questions, which are rather rebulous.

God created a people and waaay down the pike, and finally, they lapsed into wickedness, which included apostasy of some sort, but I doubt they were beholden to any kind of 'organization' as we know it Hardly analogous to the Lord bringing forth the Book of Mormon and restoring his 'church' for the last days and allowing it to lapse into apostasy in 14 years, to the point it totally loses its original purpose.

In the case of Moses, the wandering in the desert is what caused them to morph into a covenant people.

You'll have to be more specific with your 3rd question about God creating a covenant people.

But Jesus was recognized, eventually, by a small but significant portion of the Jewish population. And even these took a while to be sure of who He was.

The history of the Nephites over a 1000 years certainly had its ups and downs. And yes, some of those cycles were quite brief. I try to attend my LDS meetings when I can, and haven't really seen any group within the Church denying any scriptures, engaging in ant-Christ thought or activity, or certainly in any moral depravity and wickedness . . . though, some seem to have been overtaken by 'wokeness' and are in alignment with views such as Mitt Romney may espouse, etc.

That said, I'm not aware of any group within the active LDS community that "completely ignores" the truth that God has revealed..

And your last statement. I don't see active LDS ignoring the restoration at all. You obviously live in a different world than I do. My personal view is it that you might benefit by rethinking some of your closely held beliefs and views. Though, I think we both know, that isn't going to happen any time soon.

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:49 pm And your last statement. I don't see active LDS ignoring the restoration at all. You obviously live in a different world than I do.
You and I see the restoration vastly differently. Active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God. Yes, you and I live in a different world.
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:49 pm My personal view is it that you might benefit by rethinking some of your closely held beliefs and views. Though, I think we both know, that isn't going to happen any time soon.
I am very stubborn I will admit. However, in the last 5 years or so I have drastically changed. I now know that I know almost nothing and have let God mold me as he sees fit. I am also no longer beholden to dogmas. This has been so spiritually liberating that I can't begin to explain it.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:14 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:49 pm And your last statement. I don't see active LDS ignoring the restoration at all. You obviously live in a different world than I do.
You and I see the restoration vastly differently. Active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God. Yes, you and I live in a different world.
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:49 pm My personal view is it that you might benefit by rethinking some of your closely held beliefs and views. Though, I think we both know, that isn't going to happen any time soon.
I am very stubborn I will admit. However, in the last 5 years or so I have drastically changed. I now know that I know almost nothing and have let God mold me as he sees fit. I am also no longer beholden to dogmas. This has been so spiritually liberating that I can't begin to explain it.
Yup. You've got that right. I hear good lessons and talks drawing on the Book of Mormon ALL THE TIME, in various church venues. So, I'm clueless as to how you could come to think "active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God." An incredible accusation, in my view. Very black-and-white, which is epidemic with so many people now-a-days.

And I can well imagine that freeing yourself from the strictures of "dogma" would be liberating for you. I just hope those dogmas you are referring to don't involve standard morality and basic ideas of right and wrong.

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:33 pm Yup. You've got that right. I hear good lessons and talks drawing on the Book of Mormon ALL THE TIME, in various church venues. So, I'm clueless as to how you could come to think "active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God." An incredible accusation, in my view. Very black-and-white, which is epidemic with so many people now-a-days.

And I can well imagine that freeing yourself from the strictures of "dogma" would be liberating for you. I just hope those dogmas you are referring to don't involve standard morality and basic ideas of right and wrong.
I find it so fascinating that the Book of Mormon is a book about spiritual apostasy, yet it was given to a people who think they can't apostatize.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm
mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :
as long as they themselves stay on track.
:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:
38.8.41

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.
ok, I read the first one - I'll peruse the others tomorrow.

My initial thoughts are -
- why the pre-school-type intro? Shouldn't Mormons be *the most* informed when it comes to "secret combinations"? And if we're not, why aren't we?

But I agree with almost everything he says, even if it does appear to be geared toward "the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints".

I appreciate your thoughtful thread (we need more of this, so kudos to you!) - Just wanted to say:

1. If anyone needs Jeff Lindsay to inform you about secret combinations, I have to assume you've strictly limited your scripture study in the past 10+ years to the "Come Follow Me" manual, along with their "how does it make you feel.....?" questions. And nothing else. Maybe Meridian magazine is the wasatch front's gateway to deeper subjects? Anyway, at least it's being said. finally. after a decade of near silence.*
2. Weird (or...?) that Bednar waits till Nelson is 100+ to talk about CT's / SC's in conference? Here's the frequency of "secret combinations" mentioned in conference lately:
Image
The one reference in 2010's is Nelson - and he mentions it at the end of his talk, but provides no commentary on it - just states that the Book of mormon informs us about SC's.

In my opinion, a major reason (in the top 5) Mormon wrote the BOM was as a warning to the future inhabitants of the Promised Land. Why else include the reason for the downfalls of both previous civilizations here?

* I just don't know what they do with it now that Bednar talked about it - I mean, if you're all in on the jab, the UN, voting for Soros picks for President, Ukraine good/Russia bad - then who are the bad guys?

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

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larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm
mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :
as long as they themselves stay on track.
:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:
38.8.41

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.
Jesus sure painted a target on his back. Should've taken the advice of Jeff so he could better perform his purpose.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by JohnnyL »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 2:16 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 1:58 pm
Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:50 pm

This is certainly true. However, it fundamentally assumes that God can't take care of the church we need to instead.
Maybe God was OK with this 'policy'. I for one, don't presume to guess what God may undertake or support to achieve his greater purposes.

My take on this situation, as I've stated many times, is that it doesn't make much sense to me that God, the Lord, would go to all the trouble to send Lehi into the wilderness, then the 'New World', all the while nurturing prophets throughout the Book of Mormon period, to produce a book for our day, called the Book of Mormon, and bring it forth with establishing a restoration of his primitive Church, then let it drift off into irrelevance and complete incompetence just after Joseph Smith.

I think there are much broader perspectives the Lord has that we may not be privy to. Losing faith in the restoration, simply puts one who adopts this position, into a well-defined category we've been warned about.
So you don't want to speculate on what God would do, however you certainly just speculated on what God would do. Makes sense.

Why would God create a people just to drown them for apostasy?
Why would God create a covenant people just to force them to wander in the desert?
Why would God create a covenant people that almost immediately abandoned him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit a people who didn't recognize him?
Why would God himself (Jesus) visit the Nephites who would abandon him?
Why would God reveal truth to anyone when they would completely ignore it?

Your argument is why would God do something if people would just ignore it. However, this is the story of the entire human civilization. I personally think you need to rethink God and his dealings with humanity.
The scriptures have answers to those questions, no need to speculate much.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by JohnnyL »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:40 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:33 pm Yup. You've got that right. I hear good lessons and talks drawing on the Book of Mormon ALL THE TIME, in various church venues. So, I'm clueless as to how you could come to think "active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God." An incredible accusation, in my view. Very black-and-white, which is epidemic with so many people now-a-days.

And I can well imagine that freeing yourself from the strictures of "dogma" would be liberating for you. I just hope those dogmas you are referring to don't involve standard morality and basic ideas of right and wrong.
I find it so fascinating that the Book of Mormon is a book about spiritual apostasy, yet it was given to a people who think they can't apostatize.
??

I am certain that I can.
I am also certain that the Church won't.

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Telavian
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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by Telavian »

JohnnyL wrote: October 30th, 2024, 9:12 am
Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:40 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:33 pm Yup. You've got that right. I hear good lessons and talks drawing on the Book of Mormon ALL THE TIME, in various church venues. So, I'm clueless as to how you could come to think "active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God." An incredible accusation, in my view. Very black-and-white, which is epidemic with so many people now-a-days.

And I can well imagine that freeing yourself from the strictures of "dogma" would be liberating for you. I just hope those dogmas you are referring to don't involve standard morality and basic ideas of right and wrong.
I find it so fascinating that the Book of Mormon is a book about spiritual apostasy, yet it was given to a people who think they can't apostatize.
??

I am certain that I can.
I am also certain that the Church won't.
This is exactly what I meant. It doesn't even logically make sense.
Everyone in the church could be in apostasy, but somehow the church is still not in apostasy. Very strange.

The true church could be entirely composed of apostate people with apostate beliefs and apostate actions, yet still true!

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by JohnnyL »

mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 8:14 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm
mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :

:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:

here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.
ok, I read the first one - I'll peruse the others tomorrow.

My initial thoughts are -
- why the pre-school-type intro? Shouldn't Mormons be *the most* informed when it comes to "secret combinations"? And if we're not, why aren't we?

But I agree with almost everything he says, even if it does appear to be geared toward "the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints".

I appreciate your thoughtful thread (we need more of this, so kudos to you!) - Just wanted to say:

1. If anyone needs Jeff Lindsay to inform you about secret combinations, I have to assume you've strictly limited your scripture study in the past 10+ years to the "Come Follow Me" manual, along with their "how does it make you feel.....?" questions. And nothing else. Maybe Meridian magazine is the wasatch front's gateway to deeper subjects? Anyway, at least it's being said. finally. after a decade of near silence.*
2. Weird (or...?) that Bednar waits till Nelson is 100+ to talk about CT's / SC's in conference? Here's the frequency of "secret combinations" mentioned in conference lately:
Image
The one reference in 2010's is Nelson - and he mentions it at the end of his talk, but provides no commentary on it - just states that the Book of mormon informs us about SC's.

In my opinion, a major reason (in the top 5) Mormon wrote the BOM was as a warning to the future inhabitants of the Promised Land. Why else include the reason for the downfalls of both previous civilizations here?

* I just don't know what they do with it now that Bednar talked about it - I mean, if you're all in on the jab, the UN, voting for Soros picks for President, Ukraine good/Russia bad - then who are the bad guys?
Why, street gangs and the Mafia, and now the cartels. ;)

Even though there was this film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnFITzc3cuY

Even though President Hinckley and President Monson also talked about them near the very end of their mortal ministries. (I think that was because it took them that long to understand...)

Most people in the USA, especially church members, just cannot comprehend secret combinations; they are not just naive, but innocent in many ways. It is an emotional and psychological blow to truly understand them and their works. It's even more powerful when the people they idolize and look to for guidance and protection are the very ones doing the opposite (trying telling a Democrat that Clinton was a member, or try telling a Republican that W was). Though Mormon talks about them (and his son Moroni does, too), he also says that he does not want to dwell on the horror of his life (war, bloodshed, iniquity, etc.)--which is what secret combinations are all about. Most people get to the murder mystery shows, and that is as far as they can go; many don't even go there.
It's understandable. These things are not "virtuous, lovely, or of good report"--and most of us have enough problems with not seeking those things out...

Another article about secret combinations:
https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by JohnnyL »

Telavian wrote: October 30th, 2024, 9:15 am
JohnnyL wrote: October 30th, 2024, 9:12 am
Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:40 pm

I find it so fascinating that the Book of Mormon is a book about spiritual apostasy, yet it was given to a people who think they can't apostatize.
??

I am certain that I can.
I am also certain that the Church won't.
This is exactly what I meant. It doesn't even logically make sense.
Everyone in the church could be in apostasy, but somehow the church is still not in apostasy. Very strange.

The true church could be entirely composed of apostate people with apostate beliefs and apostate actions, yet still true!
Ha ha, nothing strange. Well, I guess, if we were to ignore/ not believe in propechy, that there might be a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000^1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000... chance, that every person with a testimony will leave the Church and then it would be "entirely composed of apostate people with apostate beliefs and apostate actions"--though in all likelihood, they would just leave like most apostates--ESPECIALLY if there weren't others to drag away.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by JohnnyL »

Hogmeister wrote: October 30th, 2024, 5:22 am
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm
mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :

:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:

here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.
Jesus sure painted a target on his back. Should've taken the advice of Jeff so he could better perform his purpose.
Yes, and three years later, he was dead. ;) (Although, of course, that was his purpose.)
However, being dead in three years is not the purpose of the Church.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by Telavian »

JohnnyL wrote: October 30th, 2024, 9:36 am Ha ha, nothing strange. Well, I guess, if we were to ignore/ not believe in propechy
Where does it say the church can't or won't go astray? You likely will reference D&C 13, however this is not what it says. Where else?

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by larsenb »

Telavian wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:40 pm
larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:33 pm Yup. You've got that right. I hear good lessons and talks drawing on the Book of Mormon ALL THE TIME, in various church venues. So, I'm clueless as to how you could come to think "active LDS are the ones in apostasy and are ignoring the Book of Mormon and consequently God." An incredible accusation, in my view. Very black-and-white, which is epidemic with so many people now-a-days.

And I can well imagine that freeing yourself from the strictures of "dogma" would be liberating for you. I just hope those dogmas you are referring to don't involve standard morality and basic ideas of right and wrong.
I find it so fascinating that the Book of Mormon is a book about spiritual apostasy, yet it was given to a people who think they can't apostatize.
If you are exercising faith in Jesus Christ and trying to live the Gospel as you discern it from the scriptures, you really aren't in a state of apostasy. Who exactly are these 'people' you are talking about? If you are tagging active LDS, do you have any inkling of what a black-and-white judgement this is? Making these kinds of accusations, for me, is dangerous territory. Why? Because as you judge, you will be judged. I try to stay away from such judgements, myself . . . especially those that partake of being sweeping, black-and-white generalities.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by Telavian »

larsenb wrote: October 30th, 2024, 10:49 am If you are exercising faith in Jesus Christ and trying to live the Gospel as you discern it from the scriptures, you really aren't in a state of apostasy. Who exactly are these 'people' you are talking about? If you are tagging active LDS, do you have any inkling of what a black-and-white judgement this is? Making these kinds of accusations, for me, is dangerous territory. Why? Because as you judge, you will be judged. I try to stay away from such judgements, myself . . . especially those that partake of being sweeping, black-and-white generalities.
I would really reread what you just wrote and think about it for a bit. What you said is exactly what Laman and Lemuel said about their people. However, it seems God disagreed.

"And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him."
1 Nephi 17:22

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Re: Jeff Lindsay's Articles on Secret Combinations -Meridian Magazine

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

larsenb wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:48 pm
mudflap wrote: October 29th, 2024, 12:34 pm I like how he "almost goes there" :
as long as they themselves stay on track.
:)

Members might not neglect conspiracy theories if the church wasn't adamantly against researching and seeking the truth about them:
38.8.41

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
here they are basically telling us "avoid stuff that doesn't edify". that's actually not Mormon's point in telling us about CT's / CT's, as Mormon's point was that we should seek out and learn about the secrets so they wouldn't get above us. Well, Benson is dead now, and no one has filled his shoes, so we're on our own.

IMO, there's no such thing as "a baseless conspiracy theory", simply because every conspiracy theory "has a base" - something that's true that caused folks to question official narratives. I wish Q15 could get back to the point where they were suspicious of all "the government narratives", rather than the current wearing of UN pins to show their support for the child molesters.
You should be happy that in these articles you have push-back from a common, but very well established member, to the opinion you've just posted. For me, seeing this type of information promulgated in a fairly prominent LDS-related publication, illustrates to me that you can't realistically put the body of the Church into a black and white box.

Leaders come and go. They may represent a singular viewpoint held by a segment of the Church, but that just ain't all there is regarding the variety of opinion and outlooks held by many Church members.

Jeff has said in one of the articles, indicating what he believes, something like: the Church would make itself a target in a way detrimental to its main purpose, if it waxed prolific in going after the political machinations of the powers that be.

I would be more interested in your opinion of the articles once your actually read them . . . being careful to weigh the good as well as what you might think where they fail.
What I hear you saying is that you agree that so-called prophets CAN lead the church astray by not following the commandments of the Lord. Is that right?

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