The End of the Law of Moses

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Seeker144k
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The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Seeker144k »

I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.
Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.
Moroni 7
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
~Seeker

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I Dont Know...
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Location: Aotearoa New Zealand Land of the long white cloud

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by I Dont Know... »

Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.
Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.
Moroni 7
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
~Seeker
...until each man willingly surrenders his heart to the Lord...

...there will be no change of heart, let alone miracles in that man or woman's life...

...for me, the old and new Testament are both very much alive...in fact the old Testament is abuzz with activity right now...

...the Lord spoke to me regarding both the old and new Testament...

...both, are being played out before our eyes...

...in the old Testament, the Lord showed me that we are presently experiencing a modern day exodus...actually, he showed me this back in September of 2021...the Lord told me Moses was the key...

However, in November of 2023, he told me, I AM (Christ) is the key...he told me to search the gospel of John...for my words shall all be fulfilled...

...those whose hearts are open, will easily see and hear the Lords voice...

...the Lord is at this time, preparing his people from out of all nations...

...many are suffering...but this must be...in order to cleanse the people and present them anew, having been brought through the fire...

...I know the Lord is speaking to the house of Israel right now...

...I also know how merciful He will be to the gentiles and the heathen...

...Christ is good...

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FrankOne
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Posts: 3893

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by FrankOne »

It's over.
It's done.
Christ solved it.

Now we are just playing catch up . :)
Acceptance of the solution is obstructed by willfulness. Clinging to the law is a desperate attempt by an ancient Ego that was endowed to man in the Fall. The gift of the dark is very heavy and filled with condemnation.

Liberation is the acceptance of the gift of Christ.

Willingness opens all doors.

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FrankOne
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by FrankOne »

Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am God doesn't change,
~Seeker
If Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God then "God" does change as far as my limited understanding can determine. This is assuming that the OT and NT actually quote both of them accurately as they speak of their judgements, emotions, their character and their attributes as well as their actions which demonstrate their demeanor.

I would love to entertain a different view on this, if someone could offer up a rebuttal.

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MikeMaillet
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Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

I do not believe that God changes but not all people on the earth are the same and hence the difference in how we are treated by the Lord. Jehovah/Christ made a covenant with Moses and his people but that covenant was not extended to the Gentiles. Jehovah/Christ made a covenant with the Gentiles in the latter-days but we, like the Israelites of old, rejected the covenant that was extended to us. The covenants were not identical. Why is a Gentile a crafted branch onto the root but an Israelite of the true vine? What vine am I from? Gentiles are not even from the lineage of Abraham and the only Abrahamic blood I have is due to the inter-mixing of the northern tribes, the lost tribes, with the Gentiles. I believe that the difference is due to who we were in the pre-existence. Abraham saw all of the stars (spirits) and amongst them there were some that were greater than others. Some are Prophets, some live like kings and some are born into poverty. The Lord calls the poor, "my people." Is this because the poor were more advanced in the pre-existence and are now being given a greater test?

Matthew 25

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Lord, our King, can say this literally because when on the earth He was one of those that was the least, a man acquainted with misery and not that handsome guy with the manicured beard we see in so many paintings. Maybe this is why He commanded that no graven image be made of Him or anything else in heaven.

The Book of Mormon tells us that we will not be tested beyond our ability but not everyone's challenge is the same. All I know is that my being born where and when was not an act of chance but a decision made by a loving God for a reason. That's the part I'm trying to figure out.

Mike

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

I was just ponderizing in Mike's Garage (where no Canadian statutes are broken) and this thought came to mind. We know that Christ changed water into wine and although that may have been literal, there is usually another layer of two that we are meant to discover. One interpretation:

- There are four rivers that emanate from Paradise and water the earth.
- These rivers of "water" are rivers of spirits, Adam and Eve, that populate the earth.
- Each river comes from a different source.
- No matter the source, the "water" in these rivers can be turned into "wine" if they are good enough to be selected for the winepress.
- Some of the grapes are pure and from the Lord's vintage.
- Some of the grapes come from branches that have been grafted from another tree/vine such as the Gentiles.

What/who are the other vines?

Mike

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Cruiserdude
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Cruiserdude »

MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 2:46 pm I was just ponderizing in Mike's Garage (where no Canadian statutes are broken) and this thought came to mind. We know that Christ changed water into wine and although that may have been literal, there is usually another layer of two that we are meant to discover. One interpretation:

- There are four rivers that emanate from Paradise and water the earth.
- These rivers of "water" are rivers of spirits, Adam and Eve, that populate the earth.
- Each river comes from a different source.
- No matter the source, the "water" in these rivers can be turned into "wine" if they are good enough to be selected for the winepress.
- Some of the grapes are pure and from the Lord's vintage.
- Some of the grapes come from branches that have been grafted from another tree/vine such as the Gentiles.

What/who are the other vines?

Mike
That's a pretty neat thought, Mike๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘ so much symbolism everywhere if we're willing to see it๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ™

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MikeMaillet
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Posts: 2239
Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

Cruiserdude wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 3:01 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 2:46 pm I was just ponderizing in Mike's Garage (where no Canadian statutes are broken) and this thought came to mind. We know that Christ changed water into wine and although that may have been literal, there is usually another layer of two that we are meant to discover. One interpretation:

- There are four rivers that emanate from Paradise and water the earth.
- These rivers of "water" are rivers of spirits, Adam and Eve, that populate the earth.
- Each river comes from a different source.
- No matter the source, the "water" in these rivers can be turned into "wine" if they are good enough to be selected for the winepress.
- Some of the grapes are pure and from the Lord's vintage.
- Some of the grapes come from branches that have been grafted from another tree/vine such as the Gentiles.

What/who are the other vines?

Mike
That's a pretty neat thought, Mike๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘ so much symbolism everywhere if we're willing to see it๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ™
Thanks. So many questions :-)

Mike

Bronco73idi
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Bronco73idi »

FrankOne wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:11 pm
Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am God doesn't change,
~Seeker
If Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God then "God" does change as far as my limited understanding can determine. This is assuming that the OT and NT actually quote both of them accurately as they speak of their judgements, emotions, their character and their attributes as well as their actions which demonstrate their demeanor.

I would love to entertain a different view on this, if someone could offer up a rebuttal.

I see similar judgments in both testaments. The difference is, the Old Testament has a prophet who is telling the people what Jehovah is thinking. When Jehovah walked the earth he said little. He damned Capernaum, he told the Pharisees that he had many things to judge them of but he was there for the will of his father.

When Jehovah walked the earth the Jewish nation was very strict, homosexuality would have been a death sentence even though it was flourishing in the major civilizations around them. The one example of adultery was Jehovah sparing her life. Should we assume no one else was accused of sins that were punishable by death?

Why didnโ€™t the tax collectors of Capernaum ask him for taxes, instead they asked Peter about Peterโ€™s teacher. Obviously it was his house because they were asking about him and not Peter directly. I believe they didnโ€™t want to ask him, didnโ€™t want to hear the truth.

Jehovah was an alpha, he was direct and truthful.

John 8:44 he literally calls the Pharisees devil worshipers.

John 4:18 he tells the Samaritan woman that every man she slept with in a long term relationship was her husband.

I had a lady in my ward, tell me that she has never been married even though she has a kid. I told her about the Samaritan lady in John and she knew the story and agreed.

My friend in the ward, who I had there, so I wasnโ€™t alone with her, said, only you would tell someone that, as he laughed.

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ajax
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by ajax »

The โ€œroyal lawโ€ must be obeyed.

Lynn
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Posts: 1290

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Lynn »

++++++++++++++++++++
I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses
++++++++++++++++++++

I hate to say it, the Law of Moses is still in effect. Jesus states that he (Jesus) did not come to take away (or do away) with the Law of Moses. Elsewhere he definitely confirms it. He (Jesus) states that whatsover you measure out, shall be meted back to you. The Moses' Law of eye for eye, tooth for tooth, as they say, is the Law of Karma. And it stands, nor has it ended or been done away with. You can look it up in the NT- Matthew 7:3 / Mark 4:20 / Luke 6:38 Everything you reflect outward will come back to you.

What Jesus came to give, is the Law of Mercy, in other words a better way to pay those debts (karma). Things could be transmuted. However, for it to be fully vested, you must observe the Law of Helpfulness. If not, then the transmutation reverts back. In the AG, Jesus is asked, by a disciple if you cure a person by the Sacred Word, are you paying for their debts. The answer was no. Nobody can pay the debts of another. Peter was that disciple. This is found in AG chapter 138. Jesus in verses 15-117 shares that when we heal someone with the Sacred Word, we release them. We make them free, so their debts may be paid in a different manner- by giving up their life i willing sacrifice for men and living things.


Oh, as to the death of John the Baptist, his head was cut off. This was a karmic debt from the lifetime of Elijah as to the priests of Baal's heads.

solonan
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Posts: 509

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by solonan »

Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.
Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.
Moroni 7
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
~Seeker
I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.

Seeker144k
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Posts: 532

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Seeker144k »

solonan wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 10:57 pm
Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.
Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.
Moroni 7
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
~Seeker
I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.
It is very important that we learn how to hear and learn from the unseen teacher. I no longer feel inclined accept if the spirit were to move me to teach how to do the miracles, but I am inclined to teach how to learn from the unseen teacher. This is the source of revelation and through this process you can learn all things with as much detail as you need to feel satisfied.

There is a missionary letter or two that I need to write that will address this.

~Seeker

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FrankOne
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by FrankOne »

ajax wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 9:57 pm The โ€œroyal lawโ€ must be obeyed.
I'm not following the word "must" since no one obeys the "Royal Law" . All men fall very short of this.
I am guessing that you mean "you must obey the royal law or suffer"? Well, we are all suffering, right? LOL. Heaven and Hell are now.

I guess we could start with "love thy neighbor as thyself". Who is our neighbor? We like to think of our neighbor as the person next door to us. How about all neighbors? Not the guy that lets his dog poop in your yard, right? That doesn't mean him or the wacko liberal down the street with Kamala stickers on their car? Nah...can't love them the same.

yah. we fall short. :?

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FrankOne
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by FrankOne »

MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 2:20 pm I do not believe that God changes but not all people on the earth are the same and hence the difference in how we are treated by the Lord. Jehovah/Christ made a covenant with Moses and his people but that covenant was not extended to the Gentiles. Jehovah/Christ made a covenant with the Gentiles in the latter-days but we, like the Israelites of old, rejected the covenant that was extended to us. The covenants were not identical. Why is a Gentile a crafted branch onto the root but an Israelite of the true vine? What vine am I from? Gentiles are not even from the lineage of Abraham and the only Abrahamic blood I have is due to the inter-mixing of the northern tribes, the lost tribes, with the Gentiles. I believe that the difference is due to who we were in the pre-existence. Abraham saw all of the stars (spirits) and amongst them there were some that were greater than others. Some are Prophets, some live like kings and some are born into poverty. The Lord calls the poor, "my people." Is this because the poor were more advanced in the pre-existence and are now being given a greater test?

Matthew 25

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Lord, our King, can say this literally because when on the earth He was one of those that was the least, a man acquainted with misery and not that handsome guy with the manicured beard we see in so many paintings. Maybe this is why He commanded that no graven image be made of Him or anything else in heaven.

The Book of Mormon tells us that we will not be tested beyond our ability but not everyone's challenge is the same. All I know is that my being born where and when was not an act of chance but a decision made by a loving God for a reason. That's the part I'm trying to figure out.

Mike
As I mentioned, I have no idea what words are true or false in the OT and NT although many consider them to all be "Holy Writ". That being said:

โ€œThe LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violenceโ€ (Psalm 11:5).


Malachi
1 The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 โ€œI have loved you,โ€ says the Lord. But you say, โ€œHow have you loved us?โ€ โ€œIs not Esau Jacobโ€™s brother?โ€ declares the Lord. โ€œYet I have loved Jacob
3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.โ€

The above are a few from hundreds which indicate that Jehovah is very different than Jesus. I imagine we could turn the words to mean different things and to justify them , but these are simple examples with simple meanings. If I quoted 2 or a 100, it would still be the same examples. Hate, envy, jealousy, rage. I just don't see those in Jesus. Many use the example of Jesus turning the tables of the money changers to prove that righteous indignation is justified. I read the words of that account as someone viewing the scene and adding in the rage because that is how the observer FELT.

If a perfect being can be made to be angry by ignorant men than he is not a master of himself and is a slave to his provocateurs which opens him to manipulation by lowly men.

I see Jehovah as very similar to Zeus. I didn't know that many Greeks do not consider Zeus et al to be myths. It isn't mythology at all to those, it is history. I became friends with an old Greek that owned a local restaurant and I really enjoyed conversing with him. We live in a very sheltered little modern world in the U.S. with fixed ideas based on opinions founded on nothing but tradition.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

FrankOne wrote: โ†‘October 15th, 2024, 2:02 pm I see Jehovah as very similar to Zeus. I didn't know that many Greeks do not consider Zeus et al to be myths. It isn't mythology at all to those, it is history. I became friends with an old Greek that owned a local restaurant and I really enjoyed conversing with him. We live in a very sheltered little modern world in the U.S. with fixed ideas based on opinions founded on nothing but tradition.
I'm starting to feel the same way about mythology.

Mike

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I Dont Know...
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by I Dont Know... »

MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 2:46 pm I was just ponderizing in Mike's Garage (where no Canadian statutes are broken) and this thought came to mind. We know that Christ changed water into wine and although that may have been literal, there is usually another layer of two that we are meant to discover. One interpretation:

- There are four rivers that emanate from Paradise and water the earth.
- These rivers of "water" are rivers of spirits, Adam and Eve, that populate the earth.
- Each river comes from a different source.
- No matter the source, the "water" in these rivers can be turned into "wine" if they are good enough to be selected for the winepress.
- Some of the grapes are pure and from the Lord's vintage.
- Some of the grapes come from branches that have been grafted from another tree/vine such as the Gentiles.

What/who are the other vines?

Mike
...I can't provide an answer or even hazard a guess as to the vines, but as you have rightly alluded to...Christ uses his word in layered form...meaning he gives you a little taste...and if you diligently seek...if you, yearn for knowledge...then the Lord begins to open up even more layers of truth...

...but sometimes we become discouraged and lose hope we will ever be able to commune with the Lord...

...so, early this year, the Lord told me to study the gospel of John...for some reason, it was my least favorite, of the gospels...

...if the Lord hadn't spoken to me...I probably wouldn't have bothered...I thought there were far more interesting sections to study...

...but, when the Lord tells you to do something...my advice...jump!...if the Lord is speaking to you, there's a very good likelihood he wants to tell you something...or put another way, he wants to teach you something...

...I studied diligently, and pondered over the meaning of his first miracle - turning water to wine...

...I wondered why he would make this his very first miracle?...

...chronologically, Jesus, his mother and his disciples, were invited to a wedding...it must have been a fairly notable and important wedding as it lasted a few days...and the governor was the host...

...we don't know much about the bride and groom...but the symbolism of the bride and groom, is important...

...it was customary to begin the wedding celebrations with the best wine...and then...when the good wine had run out...then the lesser wine was brought out...again, symbolism is important to Christ's intended message here...

... Christ's mother is also important to his message...

...it is she (Christ's mother), who informs her son, that the wine had completely run out...consequently, there was no more wine...

...he then asks her, what he should do...

...so, he says to his mother - John 2:

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

...this is a curious statement by Christ...I believe Christ is providing 1) a question, and 2) an answer...

...I will show how Christ is teaching 2 different principles here...Christ always uses each opportunity to teach man how to think in deeper and more meaningful ways...every teaching moment is a way for Christ to expand on spiritual learnings...

...the first principle - he is teaching his mother, is to exercise faith...by asking her to think of ways he can help her...not in physical ways...but in deeper, more spiritual or supernatural ways...

...so, Christ asks his mother, what he should do...

...does Christ not know what he should do?...of course, he does...but he is trying to get his mother to have faith enough, to ask of him for help...supernatural help...the miracle kind...

...Christ will not prompt you...until you ask first (by showing faith in him, and believing he can do anything you ask him to do, in righteousness)...when the children of men exercise a particle of faith, by prayer...when we can open our hearts and plead with the Lord for help, for ourselves and for others,...we are opening a door...remember he is the good shepherd...and when you open this door, Christ promises to come in to you and to share meat (spiritual fruit)...

...all through the gospel of John, every miracle is preceded by Christ asking the recipient a question...this question allows the recipient to answer Christ...Christ is also teaching the reader (us), how he performs miracles, and how we can access his power and authority...

...the 2nd principle in this one sentence (John 2: 4) is the most curious part of his reply to his mother...

...he says...mine hour is not yet come...

...what does this mean?...what is he even talking about?...mine hour is not yet come...?

...it seems he is talking about his coming sacrifice...but what has this got to do with turning water to wine?...

...for brevity, I am going to shortcut this whole scene...

1 - the wedding was in the middle of the week (this represents the period of Christs mortal appearance)
2 - There is a bride and groom involved (Christ and his church)
3 - his mother exercises faith (faith precedes the miracle)
4 - his mother instructs the servants to hear Christ's words and follow him (the servants hear him and obey his word)
5 - Christ instructs the servants to fill the waterpots with water...(the servants fill the water to the brim)
6 - Christ tells the servants to take of the waterpots a cup and give it to the governor...
7 - the governor tastes the water, which is no longer water...it is now wine...

...the governor speaks and it's important to hear what he says, because this also, has important symbolism....

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

...so, the governor was surprised because the good wine (or best wine) was left to the end of the wedding feast...

...so how does turning water to wine manifest Christ's glory?...

...the whole wedding feast represents the plan of salvation...

1 - Christ arrived in the flesh on earth, in the middle of man's spiritual journey...
2 - water to wine, represents water baptism and Christ's blood sacrifice...
3 - Christ is the good wine...(this is why he revealed to his mother - mine hour is not yet come)...he was referencing his imminent sacrifice and alluding to how all men must worship him in faith, being baptized by water and his holy spirit...

Christs sacrifice is the ultimate manifestation of his glory...

...his first miracle wasn't just about free booze...

...it was his way of saying, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...

...he was God before he came to the earth...his descent into the earth brought the end of spiritual death, and opened up a way for all men to return to his presence...

...the plan of salvation, is his ultimate gift to man...

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I Dont Know...
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by I Dont Know... »

solonan wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 10:57 pm
Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.
Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.
Moroni 7
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
~Seeker
I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.
...actually, apostle Matthew Cowley gave a speech to the brethren when he returned from his mission in New Zealand...

...I think it was on video, and definitely its written in LDS history...

...he was loved by Maori members and he is still spoken of fondly, by members today in NZ...

...almost all the miracles he witnessed...he attributed to the Maori people...he called them, the blood of Israel...

...he witnessed dead brethren being raised by a priesthood bearer (he called an old Maori sage)...

...he shared one miracle he was actively involved in...

...it was kind of a funny story...and seemed to catch him by surprise...

...a priesthood holder and his wife, father to a child born deaf, dumb and blind, came to the apostle Matthew Cowley and asked him to give his child a name and a blessing...

...as President Cowley was about to give this blessing...the father of the child, tells him to heal him - because he is deaf, dumb and blind...

...this catches President Cowley a little off guard...so, when he blesses the child, he pronounces the blessing, according to the faith of the father...

...that young child was my uncle...who served faithfully in the church until his death more than a decade ago...

solonan
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Posts: 509

Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by solonan »

I Dont Know... wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 7:49 am
solonan wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 10:57 pm
Seeker144k wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 1:43 am I was talking to someone recently about the end of the law of Moses. I thing that most Christian churches agree that the Law of Moses was ended and that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the God of the New Testament. This view point creates issues. God doesn't change, and the Old Testament and New Testament are supposed to be viewed as a congruent and complete part of the whole of God's plan of progression. The plan and path has been the same since Adam and it is the same today. We live in the restoration of all things. All things must by definition include the Law of Moses. The LDS church and the Jewish Church are the only two churches I know of that support the Law of Moses as active parts of daily worship, (although the LDS don't know they are living the Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel).

John the Baptist was the embodiment of the Law of Moses and administered it by the Aaronic priesthood. He had nothing else to restore other than what he had in life and died preaching.

I think that one of the biggest misses of the modern Christian churches is the word "IF" in the New Testament. Every reference to the end of the Law of Moses I find in the scriptures comes with a BIG "if". Every "IF" statement by necesity comes with an unspoken but naturally essential "IF NOT" statement.

IF a person is born again and receives and follows the spirit, THEN they are no longer under the Law of Moses. IF NOT, then they remain under the Law which continues to perpare them to receive what they have not yet received.

The Law of Moses is given to the Telestial or all those who remain outside the gate having not be spiritually born of God and received the baptism of fire and the gift of the Holy Ghost.


The unspoken statement is "If NOT, ye remain under the law.


If faith has not yet come, then we remain kept under the law.

This is the purpose of the Aaronic priesthood. It's role is and always has been to prepare people to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

If you are more worried about obedience to the rules and commandments of the church and its leaders than following the spirit, then, you are living the law of Moses.

The path of progressions is to first receive the Holy Ghost, then to learn from the "unseen teacher".

I used to teach people everything I knew about performing miracles, how to stop the rain, walk on water, how our dead horse was brought back to life, talking to the dead, etc. I realize now that while I have experienced these things and am able to teach others how to do them, it is not my role to be the teacher. My role is to encourage others to come to Christ, receive the Holy Ghost and learn for themselves from the unseen teacher just as I have. This is the path that leads to eternal life and there is no other path.

The Law of Moses = Telestial = Those who remain outside the gate and have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. These will not be redemed at the last day and are not supposed to join Christ's church or be baptized. Judged by their works.

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ = Terestrial = Those who have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by entering in at the gate. These will be redeemed at the last day and are invited to join Christ's church. They are on the path that leads to eternal life, IF they follow the spirit. They are not under the law IF they follow the spirit. Saved by Grace.

The Church of the Firstborn = Celestial = Those who have followed the spirit to the end of the path and reached eternal life. The end of the path is only obtained by the Holy Spirit of Promise sealing a person to their exaltation and eternal life. This is known as making your calling and election sure. It is confirmed by the Second Comforter.


The first step in this process is to enter in at the gate. It requires faith. Faith drives the broken heart and the contrite spirit and brings hope. The broken heart and contrite spirit are an acceptance of your flaws and the need for change (broken Heart), openness to guidance and correction often accompanied by a commitment to change or improve or a comitment to follow God as best you know how (contrite Spirit).

Mormon says "IF" you have faith enough to be redeemed, THEN you have faith enough to work miracles and be ministered to by angels.



Are you living as if there had been no redemption made? Are you living by the Law of Moses or are you living by the spirit?



~Seeker
I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.
...actually, apostle Matthew Cowley gave a speech to the brethren when he returned from his mission in New Zealand...

...I think it was on video, and definitely its written in LDS history...

...he was loved by Maori members and he is still spoken of fondly, by members today in NZ...

...almost all the miracles he witnessed...he attributed to the Maori people...he called them, the blood of Israel...

...he witnessed dead brethren being raised by a priesthood bearer (he called an old Maori sage)...

...he shared one miracle he was actively involved in...

...it was kind of a funny story...and seemed to catch him by surprise...

...a priesthood holder and his wife, father to a child born deaf, dumb and blind, came to the apostle Matthew Cowley and asked him to give his child a name and a blessing...

...as President Cowley was about to give this blessing...the father of the child, tells him to heal him - because he is deaf, dumb and blind...

...this catches President Cowley a little off guard...so, when he blesses the child, he pronounces the blessing, according to the faith of the father...

...that young child was my uncle...who served faithfully in the church until his death more than a decade ago...
Here ya go I Don't Know...a talk he gave to BYU. It's both written and in audio. I also have a book written about Matthew Cowley.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/matthew-cowley/miracles/
He was involved in several, not negating the faith of the Maori. My brother also talks of another group who did tremendous blessings with effect as well. I'd have to ask him the name of the group. My brother said the members had the classes. I wish I could have attended. I do know that any Samoan wards I have attended are frought with the spirit as well. In California I attended several as well as I went a mission there. Marvelous people. I often wonder if I'd had lessons on faith would I have had an earlier start on understanding it. Would those lessons brought about the desire to know the Father and the Son on earlier, although I can't complain because I have been greatly blessed.
Last edited by solonan on October 16th, 2024, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

I Dont Know... wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 7:32 am
MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 2:46 pm I was just ponderizing in Mike's Garage (where no Canadian statutes are broken) and this thought came to mind. We know that Christ changed water into wine and although that may have been literal, there is usually another layer of two that we are meant to discover. One interpretation:

- There are four rivers that emanate from Paradise and water the earth.
- These rivers of "water" are rivers of spirits, Adam and Eve, that populate the earth.
- Each river comes from a different source.
- No matter the source, the "water" in these rivers can be turned into "wine" if they are good enough to be selected for the winepress.
- Some of the grapes are pure and from the Lord's vintage.
- Some of the grapes come from branches that have been grafted from another tree/vine such as the Gentiles.

What/who are the other vines?

Mike
...I can't provide an answer or even hazard a guess as to the vines, but as you have rightly alluded to...Christ uses his word in layered form...meaning he gives you a little taste...and if you diligently seek...if you, yearn for knowledge...then the Lord begins to open up even more layers of truth...

...but sometimes we become discouraged and lose hope we will ever be able to commune with the Lord...

...so, early this year, the Lord told me to study the gospel of John...for some reason, it was my least favorite, of the gospels...

...if the Lord hadn't spoken to me...I probably wouldn't have bothered...I thought there were far more interesting sections to study...

...but, when the Lord tells you to do something...my advice...jump!...if the Lord is speaking to you, there's a very good likelihood he wants to tell you something...or put another way, he wants to teach you something...

...I studied diligently, and pondered over the meaning of his first miracle - turning water to wine...

...I wondered why he would make this his very first miracle?...

...chronologically, Jesus, his mother and his disciples, were invited to a wedding...it must have been a fairly notable and important wedding as it lasted a few days...and the governor was the host...

...we don't know much about the bride and groom...but the symbolism of the bride and groom, is important...

...it was customary to begin the wedding celebrations with the best wine...and then...when the good wine had run out...then the lesser wine was brought out...again, symbolism is important to Christ's intended message here...

... Christ's mother is also important to his message...

...it is she (Christ's mother), who informs her son, that the wine had completely run out...consequently, there was no more wine...

...he then asks her, what he should do...

...so, he says to his mother - John 2:

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

...this is a curious statement by Christ...I believe Christ is providing 1) a question, and 2) an answer...

...I will show how Christ is teaching 2 different principles here...Christ always uses each opportunity to teach man how to think in deeper and more meaningful ways...every teaching moment is a way for Christ to expand on spiritual learnings...

...the first principle - he is teaching his mother, is to exercise faith...by asking her to think of ways he can help her...not in physical ways...but in deeper, more spiritual or supernatural ways...

...so, Christ asks his mother, what he should do...

...does Christ not know what he should do?...of course, he does...but he is trying to get his mother to have faith enough, to ask of him for help...supernatural help...the miracle kind...

...Christ will not prompt you...until you ask first (by showing faith in him, and believing he can do anything you ask him to do, in righteousness)...when the children of men exercise a particle of faith, by prayer...when we can open our hearts and plead with the Lord for help, for ourselves and for others,...we are opening a door...remember he is the good shepherd...and when you open this door, Christ promises to come in to you and to share meat (spiritual fruit)...

...all through the gospel of John, every miracle is preceded by Christ asking the recipient a question...this question allows the recipient to answer Christ...Christ is also teaching the reader (us), how he performs miracles, and how we can access his power and authority...

...the 2nd principle in this one sentence (John 2: 4) is the most curious part of his reply to his mother...

...he says...mine hour is not yet come...

...what does this mean?...what is he even talking about?...mine hour is not yet come...?

...it seems he is talking about his coming sacrifice...but what has this got to do with turning water to wine?...

...for brevity, I am going to shortcut this whole scene...

1 - the wedding was in the middle of the week (this represents the period of Christs mortal appearance)
2 - There is a bride and groom involved (Christ and his church)
3 - his mother exercises faith (faith precedes the miracle)
4 - his mother instructs the servants to hear Christ's words and follow him (the servants hear him and obey his word)
5 - Christ instructs the servants to fill the waterpots with water...(the servants fill the water to the brim)
6 - Christ tells the servants to take of the waterpots a cup and give it to the governor...
7 - the governor tastes the water, which is no longer water...it is now wine...

...the governor speaks and it's important to hear what he says, because this also, has important symbolism....

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

...so, the governor was surprised because the good wine (or best wine) was left to the end of the wedding feast...

...so how does turning water to wine manifest Christ's glory?...

...the whole wedding feast represents the plan of salvation...

1 - Christ arrived in the flesh on earth, in the middle of man's spiritual journey...
2 - water to wine, represents water baptism and Christ's blood sacrifice...
3 - Christ is the good wine...(this is why he revealed to his mother - mine hour is not yet come)...he was referencing his imminent sacrifice and alluding to how all men must worship him in faith, being baptized by water and his holy spirit...

Christs sacrifice is the ultimate manifestation of his glory...

...his first miracle wasn't just about free booze...

...it was his way of saying, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...

...he was God before he came to the earth...his descent into the earth brought the end of spiritual death, and opened up a way for all men to return to his presence...

...the plan of salvation, is his ultimate gift to man...
Thank you for a very well written and thought out reply. I will no go and read the gospel of John.

Mike

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FrankOne
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by FrankOne »

MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 4:12 am
FrankOne wrote: โ†‘October 15th, 2024, 2:02 pm I see Jehovah as very similar to Zeus. I didn't know that many Greeks do not consider Zeus et al to be myths. It isn't mythology at all to those, it is history. I became friends with an old Greek that owned a local restaurant and I really enjoyed conversing with him. We live in a very sheltered little modern world in the U.S. with fixed ideas based on opinions founded on nothing but tradition.
I'm starting to feel the same way about mythology.

Mike
and as a note, I am not implying any irreverence toward Jehovah in anything I say. I am in awe of him just as I am in awe of Zeus but my awe is based on beliefs, not facts. I don't know for certain if either of them actually exist or if they are one and the same being.

For those in ancient times, Jehovah was the chosen Lord for his people and they needed him exactly as he was/is. I agree with Lynn that we currently are still under the Law of Moses up until the second coming of Jesus. The full wrath is coming and the show will be amazing!

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by MikeMaillet »

FrankOne wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 1:33 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 4:12 am
FrankOne wrote: โ†‘October 15th, 2024, 2:02 pm I see Jehovah as very similar to Zeus. I didn't know that many Greeks do not consider Zeus et al to be myths. It isn't mythology at all to those, it is history. I became friends with an old Greek that owned a local restaurant and I really enjoyed conversing with him. We live in a very sheltered little modern world in the U.S. with fixed ideas based on opinions founded on nothing but tradition.
I'm starting to feel the same way about mythology.

Mike
and as a note, I am not implying any irreverence toward Jehovah in anything I say. I am in awe of him just as I am in awe of Zeus but my awe is based on beliefs, not facts. I don't know for certain if either of them actually exist or if they are one and the same being.

For those in ancient times, Jehovah was the chosen Lord for his people and they needed him exactly as he was/is. I agree with Lynn that we currently are still under the Law of Moses up until the second coming of Jesus. The full wrath is coming and the show will be amazing!
A few years ago I decided that I would buy a few jigsaw puzzles with the intent of having my wife join me where we could engage in conversation; we are quite different from each other. This did not work out but after making a few puzzles I have changed my approach to studying the scriptures. I focus on the whole image rather than get excited about a few individual pieces. The other thing I do is ignore the voice of experts until I am ready to listen to them. I know that there are errors and omissions in the scriptures, but I am a Gentile and the Holy Ghost is my light. The desires of my heart and my intent are pure and I always pray for discernment, that I may recognize both truth and error. Quite a bit of imagery is used in the scriptures and a picture is worth a thousand words.

I think the law of Moses is still in effect but I am not an Israelite, I am a Gentile. I made a covenant with God that I would take upon myself the "name" of Jesus Christ. This means that if I behave in a manner that is un-Christlike that I am taking the name of the Lord in vain. I cannot remember who I was before I came here but my being here means that I was expelled from the Garden for disobeying Father.

It is my belief that there is truth buried in all of these old stories and in the relics we are continuously unearthing. There are echoes from the past that need to be heard so that we can better understand how God has dealt with His various peoples throughout the history of the earth. It makes me feel a little bit like Columbo or DCI Barnaby to be always digging for clues. There is great satisfaction in finding the odd nugget of gold amongst the pebbles.

Mike

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I Dont Know...
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by I Dont Know... »

solonan wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 8:46 am
I Dont Know... wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 7:49 am
solonan wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 10:57 pm

I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.
...actually, apostle Matthew Cowley gave a speech to the brethren when he returned from his mission in New Zealand...

...I think it was on video, and definitely its written in LDS history...

...he was loved by Maori members and he is still spoken of fondly, by members today in NZ...

...almost all the miracles he witnessed...he attributed to the Maori people...he called them, the blood of Israel...

...he witnessed dead brethren being raised by a priesthood bearer (he called an old Maori sage)...

...he shared one miracle he was actively involved in...

...it was kind of a funny story...and seemed to catch him by surprise...

...a priesthood holder and his wife, father to a child born deaf, dumb and blind, came to the apostle Matthew Cowley and asked him to give his child a name and a blessing...

...as President Cowley was about to give this blessing...the father of the child, tells him to heal him - because he is deaf, dumb and blind...

...this catches President Cowley a little off guard...so, when he blesses the child, he pronounces the blessing, according to the faith of the father...

...that young child was my uncle...who served faithfully in the church until his death more than a decade ago...
Here ya go I Don't Know...a talk he gave to BYU. It's both written and in audio. I also have a book written about Matthew Cowley.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/matthew-cowley/miracles/
He was involved in several, not negating the faith of the Maori. My brother also talks of another group who did tremendous blessings with effect as well. I'd have to ask him the name of the group. My brother said the members had the classes. I wish I could have attended. I do know that any Samoan wards I have attended are frought with the spirit as well. In California I attended several as well as I went a mission there. Marvelous people. I often wonder if I'd had lessons on faith would I have had an earlier start on understanding it. Would those lessons brought about the desire to know the Father and the Son on earlier, although I can't complain because I have been greatly blessed.
...my best man at my wedding is a devout Catholic, and my best friend...his family were some of the most kind and spiritual people I know...

...I love my Samoan cousins...

...they have tender hearts...

...just, don't make them angry!...

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I Dont Know...
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by I Dont Know... »

solonan wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 8:46 am
I Dont Know... wrote: โ†‘October 16th, 2024, 7:49 am
solonan wrote: โ†‘October 14th, 2024, 10:57 pm

I have thought about faith for many years. I have often felt it was a pity that it wasn't taught more deeply in the church. It seems like a subject that is just glanced over.
In my brother's mission to the Maori the members, not the church, had classes on faith, healings were not thought of as they are in our culture. Rather they were expected. When he came home I remember as a girl trying to understand the thoughts or feelings or attitudes that must be learned to use the substance of faith to heal the sick, lame, blind, raise the dead, and move mountains. He lived in the home of the woman famously raised from the dead by Matthew Cowley. I still think it should be taught. You know full well that people, such as myself, sometimes have to have the obvious pointed out. For years, in an effort to understand this I have gone through the scriptures searching for understanding. Pondered stories of those who have been able to master faith and use the power to create, fasted , prayed, read from people like praying medic, Matthew Cowley, lectures on faith, and even annalee skarin and gone to faith based church's who seem to be more on top of this than any Mormon dared think. It was quite frustrating really. Even Joseph Smith taught faith, what it is etc. Personally, Annalee Skarin does a better in depth job. So you said to have the holy Spirit teach you the nuances, mechanics. I think I am just thick. He seems to direct me to people and books.
...actually, apostle Matthew Cowley gave a speech to the brethren when he returned from his mission in New Zealand...

...I think it was on video, and definitely its written in LDS history...

...he was loved by Maori members and he is still spoken of fondly, by members today in NZ...

...almost all the miracles he witnessed...he attributed to the Maori people...he called them, the blood of Israel...

...he witnessed dead brethren being raised by a priesthood bearer (he called an old Maori sage)...

...he shared one miracle he was actively involved in...

...it was kind of a funny story...and seemed to catch him by surprise...

...a priesthood holder and his wife, father to a child born deaf, dumb and blind, came to the apostle Matthew Cowley and asked him to give his child a name and a blessing...

...as President Cowley was about to give this blessing...the father of the child, tells him to heal him - because he is deaf, dumb and blind...

...this catches President Cowley a little off guard...so, when he blesses the child, he pronounces the blessing, according to the faith of the father...

...that young child was my uncle...who served faithfully in the church until his death more than a decade ago...
Here ya go I Don't Know...a talk he gave to BYU. It's both written and in audio. I also have a book written about Matthew Cowley.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/matthew-cowley/miracles/
He was involved in several, not negating the faith of the Maori. My brother also talks of another group who did tremendous blessings with effect as well. I'd have to ask him the name of the group. My brother said the members had the classes. I wish I could have attended. I do know that any Samoan wards I have attended are frought with the spirit as well. In California I attended several as well as I went a mission there. Marvelous people. I often wonder if I'd had lessons on faith would I have had an earlier start on understanding it. Would those lessons brought about the desire to know the Father and the Son on earlier, although I can't complain because I have been greatly blessed.
...oh I should have made it clear...my best friend is Samoan...

...the nicest, kindest, and most helpfullest (new word!) person I know!...

...and besides, my favourite food is Samoan food & Maori food...

Lynn
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Re: The End of the Law of Moses

Post by Lynn »

I might add as to the bit on Jehovah in the OT, the representative of IHVH was Michael. In the ancient texts, it was Michael who appeared at the Burning Bush to speak to Moses, and said he was I Am That I Am (or Existence is Existence, or I Will Be What I Will Be).

It was Michael who appeared to Peleg (the Brother of Jared) in the Book of Mormon.

It was Michael & Jesus who were the two personages that appeared to Joseph Smith.

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