Joseph was a Prophet - Proof in Error

[Seeker144k]

I'm responding to a post in another thread, but wanted to start this new one.

Every contradiction between the teachings of Joseph Smith and a revelation from the Lord is a witness that Joseph was a true prophet. Do you understand why?

A revelation is when the Lord "Reveals New Information". If the revelation revealed something you already new, understood or believed, it wouldn't be a revelation. Why would the Lord tell us something we already knew and understood?

If Joseph was making up fake revelations then he would make the revelations support what he already knew and believed because its no fun to believe you're right about something, teach I to everyone and then get a revelation saying that you don't know what you're talking about. And if you wanted other people to believe what you believe, you would make the Lord agree with you in your Revelations that you made up so you could keep believing what you want.

I have had the experience of teaching something then getting a revelation telling me I was wrong and having to recant as a result. I have also had revelations that I couldn't understand or accept for 5-6 years. During that time, I taught what I believed and not what was in the revelation. The contradiction between my understanding/beliefs and the revelation from the Lod was proof that the revelation was not the creation of my own mind, thoughts and desires.

Here is an example of Joseph Smith teaching his personal views which are contrary to the revelations from the Lord. Since most people aren't ready to understand and accept the revelation or new information from the Lord without significant effort to explain it, I'll just give some references where the Lord says Joseph doesn't know, understand and comprehend the subject matter.

Here is Joseph teaching his own views regarding God the Father from D&C 130.

D&C 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Here the Lord is revealing that Joseph doesn't know or understand what he worships (the Father) and the Lord isaid the previous verses 1-19 attempting to reveal to Joseph this new information.

D&C 93
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Here is another reference where the Lord tells Joseph that he doesn't comprehend God. He promises Joseph that a day will come when he does comprehend God and when that day comes Joseph is told that he will realize that he has seen God, he will understand why his name is "I AM", and he will realize the God is the in Joseph and also that Joseph is in God.

D&C 88
49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

BTW. all these promises apply not only to Joseph but to everyone reading this. If you do not think you have seen God, then you do not comprehend God. "Nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me."

Because Joseph received revelations that he didn't comprehend or understand and which he contradicted in his own teachings, we know he wasn't making up the revelations according to his own beliefs and views to make it appear that the Lord was bolstering his position. Instead, the Lord disagreed with Joseph which diminished his position.

So, we learn to study and trust the revelations over the person who received them. When there is a contradiction between the person and the revelation we trust the revelation, assuming that it is a true prophet. It it is not a true prophet, then we trust neither the personnor the revelations they received.

In this case, the Lord repeatedly told Joseph that Joseph didn't comprehend, know or understand God the Father, or What he worships. So, whatever Joseph taught on this subject prior to receiving, understanding and accepting the revelations is wrong. As far as I can tell Joseph never changed his view of God since the first vision. So, his first vision view of God was wrong. Probably because it was a symbolic vision and not a litteral visitation and Joseph interpreted the vision as litteral and not symbolic.

This is true of any revelation Joseph had. All revelations are new information and should result in corrections or changes to previously believed information. Prophet's are people and don't always understand the revelations. So, it is expected that they will teach contrary to their own revelations, and when they do, it is proof that the revelation was not their own concoction but a new idea from a more brilliant mind.

Every contradiction between the teachings of Joseph Smith and a revelation from the Lord is a witness that Joseph was a true prophet. Do you understand why now?

~Seeker

[Telavian]

No I still don't understand. By definition "revelation" is knowledge so that makes sense.

However, Joseph provable received false revelations. For instance, he received a revelation to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada. This was a revelation in every sense of the word. However, it turned out to not be a true revelation and was either from man or Satan according to Joseph's words. Of course, you could say it wasn't a true revelation, so the pattern still applies. However, this is just cherry-picking revelations to support the conclusion. Based on this alone then Joseph receiving revelations doesn't prove he was a prophet of God. It just proves that he can receive what he calls revelations.
- Letter, Hiram Page to William McLellin, Fishingriver, Feb. 2, 1848; Community of Christ Archives (modernized)
https://archive.org/details/addresstoal ... 0/mode/2up

In addition, Joseph received a revelation according to WW and Warren Parish, that the Kirtland Safety Society would grow to be the biggest bank in the world. This was a spectacular failure.
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org ... 8?lang=eng
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/painerep.htm

In addition, Joseph received a revelation that the Council of Fifty would grow to become the government of the world. This was also a spectacular failure. This is attested to numerous times in the meeting minutes.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... h-1845/213

It seems your argument is:
1. Joseph received revelations
2. These revelations were from God.
3. Therefore Joseph is a prophet of God

I completely understand this logic. However, you are constraining the definition of revelation to be true revelations which is not valid. If something turns out to be wrong, then you are removing it from the "revelation" pile which is not valid.

[Seeker144k]

Every contradiction between the teachings of Joseph Smith and a revelation from the Lord is a witness that Joseph was a true prophet. Do you understand why?

No I don't. Can you explain.
Every contradiction between what Joseph said and what God said means Joseph was a true prophet. I truly don't understand.

Seeker, are you trying to say that it is the contrast between the two that prove the latter? Something like saying, when teaching as a man, one can easily tell because when contrasted against his revelations, you can tell, but in the other direction.

If you are trying to say a prophet speaks as a prophet only when speaking as a prophet, I'll give you partial credit.

The problem Joseph has though is that many of his revelations after the BoM having proven false. Matter of fact, more have proven false than have come true.

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

No I still don't understand. By definition "revelation" is knowledge so that makes sense.

However, Joseph provable received false revelations. For instance, he received a revelation to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada. This was a revelation in every sense of the word. However, it turned out to not be a true revelation and was either from man or Satan according to Joseph's words. Of course, you could say it wasn't a true revelation, so the pattern still applies. However, this is just cherry-picking revelations to support the conclusion. Based on this alone then Joseph receiving revelations doesn't prove he was a prophet of God. It just proves that he can receive what he calls revelations.
- Letter, Hiram Page to William McLellin, Fishingriver, Feb. 2, 1848; Community of Christ Archives (modernized)
https://archive.org/details/addresstoal ... 0/mode/2up

In addition, Joseph received a revelation according to WW and Warren Parish, that the Kirtland Safety Society would grow to be the biggest bank in the world. This was a spectacular failure.
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org ... 8?lang=eng
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/painerep.htm

In addition, Joseph received a revelation that the Council of Fifty would grow to become the government of the world. This was also a spectacular failure. This is attested to numerous times in the meeting minutes.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... h-1845/213

It seems your argument is:
1. Joseph received revelations
2. These revelations were from God.
3. Therefore Joseph is a prophet of God

I completely understand this logic. However, you are constraining the definition of revelation to be true revelations which is not valid. If something turns out to be wrong, then you are removing it from the "revelation" pile which is not valid.

My argument is:
1. Joseph received revelations.
2. Those revelations which supported his own goals, desires and views were not likely true revelations because to be a "revelation from the Lord" it must reveal new information from a mind greater than the revelator's, contradict or challenge the revelator's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, views, goals and desires. If it does not, then it was not a revelation. The Lord doesn't tell us what we already believe and call it a revelation. Revelations must be new information revealed to us.
3. If the Lord is revealing new information
to Joseph, or anyone, then it must contradict the revelator's previous views, beliefs or understanding. Since it contradicts his own thoughts, it is likely that he will not understand or accept the revelations immediately or for years after.
4. Joseph Smith received many true revelations that contradicted his own views and beliefs. He didn't always understand or accept the revelation and so there are many instances in which the revelation was waisted or not applied and taught by Joseph Smith or the church. Instead, he taught his own beliefs and views which were contrary to the true revelations.
5. Joseph also made up some revelations which bolstered or supported his own beliefs, views and goals. Some examples are the ones you provided.
6. Prophets are not all or nothing. Black and white, good and bad. They are people like you or me. Look at Jonah for example. He was a true prophet of God, as flawed as he was. I have had many revelations and I have made many mistakes and I have been confused and have even claimed revelation when it was not. I am much more experienced than Joseph and have had many more years of practice and miracles and visions and learning by the spirit. Yet, I am still not worth following. I am a prophet and have experienced prophecy and revelations and miracles which few could believe. Being a prophet doesn't mean what the church tells you it means.
7. Joseph was a liar, a fraud, a pedafile, a skeamster, a conman, a corrupt mayor, a false prophet and a true prophet of the Lord who revealed a great number of new revelations which I have proven true by my own experience. Was he better or worse than the prophet Jonah who was angry with God for not destroying Ninevah and told God several times to kill him because he felt it was better to die than deal with a little discomfort? Or was he better or worse than the Old Prophet who was a true prophet but stilllied to the man of God who was also a true prophet in 1 Kings 13 which resulted in the death of the man of God?

What few people realize is that every member of the church is required by the Lord to be a true prophet before they join the Church. It is a requirement according to the scriptures and a goal of the Lord. It doesn't happen right now because the church is out of order and will remain so until the One Mighty and Strong completes their mission to "set in order the house of God". Before that can happen, the order must be understood. And it is not currently.

But, since every member is required to be a prophet before joining the church, it is reasonable to assume that a lot of true prophets will be teaching false things, erroring in prophecy and doing a great many things they shouldn't. If your definition of a Prophet and your expectations of them do not account for their gross errors in actions and teachings then it is not a good definition.

This is why the Lord through the prophet Joseph Smith said clearly,

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

~Seeker

[Telavian]

Thank you for breaking it down. It does make it easier to reason about.

Prophets are always a mixed bag. Today we think they are not however this is not true.

I agree that Joseph received some true revelations, which I guess in your argument it makes him a true prophet. I have no qualms about this. The assumption is that true prophet means always true, which is not logically supported.

[Shawn Henry]

My argument is: My thoughts in red
1. Joseph received revelations. From all 3 sources, God, man, and the devil.
2. Those revelations which supported his own goals, desires and views were not likely true revelations because to be a "revelation from the Lord" it must reveal new information from a mind greater than the revelator's, contradict or challenge the revelator's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, views, goals and desires. If it does not, then it was not a revelation. The Lord doesn't tell us what we already believe and call it a revelation. Revelations must be new information revealed to us. It does not have to be new information at all, the Lord can merely clarify old information, like when he says "it is written" and then explains what was written. It is wrong to say it must contradict. Often the receiving is specifically received because those very thoughts have been on that person's mind, like Alma stating that he has inquired much of the Lord to know about the resurrection and then the lord adds to his understanding because he sought and knocked. We do not ask, seek, and knock after contradictions.
3. If the Lord is revealing new information
to Joseph, or anyone, then it must contradict the revelator's previous views, beliefs or understanding. Since it contradicts his own thoughts, it is likely that he will not understand or accept the revelations immediately or for years after. We have to distinguish between one's "previous views" and what scripture says. It doesn't really matter what previous views we have had; it matters what the view of scripture is. Paul and Joseph both teach us the standard of rejecting anything new if it is another gospel or contradicts the standard works. Contradictions are a big red flag.
4. Joseph Smith received many true revelations that contradicted his own views and beliefs. He didn't always understand or accept the revelation and so there are many instances in which the revelation was waisted or not applied and taught by Joseph Smith or the church. Instead, he taught his own beliefs and views which were contrary to the true revelations. If you are referring to section 130, the fact that the teaching contradicted the Bible, BoM, and D&C is all the proof you need to discard it.
5. Joseph also made up some revelations which bolstered or supported his own beliefs, views and goals. Some examples are the ones you provided. True, but this can apply to both true and false.
6. Prophets are not all or nothing. Black and white, good and bad. They are people like you or me. Look at Jonah for example. He was a true prophet of God, as flawed as he was. I have had many revelations and I have made many mistakes and I have been confused and have even claimed revelation when it was not. I am much more experienced than Joseph and have had many more years of practice and miracles and visions and learning by the spirit. Yet, I am still not worth following. I am a prophet and have experienced prophecy and revelations and miracles which few could believe. Being a prophet doesn't mean what the church tells you it means. None but Jesus is worth following. David and Soloman were true prophets at one time, right? But, so what, true prophets can turn into fallen prophets. David and Soloman did feats as grand as Joseph did, why don't their works after those feats, their "Nauvoo works", get lauded like Joseph's? Because scripture tells us they were wrong. Most won't stop believing Joseph's post BoM teachings until new scripture tells them to.
7. Joseph was a liar, a fraud, a pedafile, a skeamster, a conman, a corrupt mayor, a false prophet and a true prophet of the Lord who revealed a great number of new revelations which I have proven true by my own experience. Was he better or worse than the prophet Jonah who was angry with God for not destroying Ninevah and told God several times to kill him because he felt it was better to die than deal with a little discomfort? Or was he better or worse than the Old Prophet who was a true prophet but stilllied to the man of God who was also a true prophet in 1 Kings 13 which resulted in the death of the man of God? The jury is still out as to whether he was a pedophile, I personally don't think he was. What makes you think he "revealed a great number of new revelations"? Which of them has proven true? This is the problem: Many have proven false, and none have proven true. There are many sections that might be true, but we still don't know.

[SJR3t2]

Joseph Smith was a modalist.
https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/

[CuriousThinker]

Every contradiction between the teachings of Joseph Smith and a revelation from the Lord is a witness that Joseph was a true prophet. Do you understand why?

No I don't. Can you explain.
Every contradiction between what Joseph said and what God said means Joseph was a true prophet. I truly don't understand.

Seeker, are you trying to say that it is the contrast between the two that prove the latter? Something like saying, when teaching as a man, one can easily tell because when contrasted against his revelations, you can tell, but in the other direction.

If you are trying to say a prophet speaks as a prophet only when speaking as a prophet, I'll give you partial credit.

The problem Joseph has though is that many of his revelations after the BoM having proven false. Matter of fact, more have proven false than have come true.

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

[FrankOne]

Prophets are always a mixed bag. Today we think they are not however this is not true.

This is a hard truth for the majority of LDS to accept and even post LDS. The LDS 'way' has been to brainwash the members to see prophets with rose colored glasses . I don't ever recall a church class that discussed the errors of historical prophets, ever. Quite the opposite. So... the bulk of LDS/postLDS have a false concept in their minds that has been repeated so many times that they can't question it. The fear of questioning their own false conclusions is too great.

As I studied the life of JS umpteen years ago, I came away with feeling his pain. He was a good man and did the best he could and like all of us, he erred. The responsibility on his shoulders was immeasurable. Prophets are NOT unusually righteous. They simply have the ability to hear and see and those abilities are only indirectly dependent on righteousness although 99.9% of religious people will disagree with me on this.

The ability to see and hear are developed through the opening of the heart and humility.

[FrankOne]

Seeker, are you trying to say that it is the contrast between the two that prove the latter? Something like saying, when teaching as a man, one can easily tell because when contrasted against his revelations, you can tell, but in the other direction.

If you are trying to say a prophet speaks as a prophet only when speaking as a prophet, I'll give you partial credit.

The problem Joseph has though is that many of his revelations after the BoM having proven false. Matter of fact, more have proven false than have come true.

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

Just to be open and fair on this. There are no recorded prophecies of Jonah's that failed. A Prophet can easily be mislead by his own mind and bias.

It takes an extremely well trained mind to not allow personal ideas to interfere with revelation.

[Jonesy]

Is this the revelation that you were talking about that you had been pondering about for several years and would prove to non LDS that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that LDS would have a harder time. And that Christians would be more accepting of? Or something like that?

[Being There]

Joseph Smith - the Modern Day Mormon Mind block.

as I just said in another thread.


I don't believe in the so-called "Endowment" at all.

Just more of Joseph Smith - being deceived.

BEWARE THE MORMON ENDOWMENT
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.p ... T#p1265922

Joseph Smith copied Freemasonry
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.p ... y#p1266915

[Seeker144k]

Seeker, are you trying to say that it is the contrast between the two that prove the latter? Something like saying, when teaching as a man, one can easily tell because when contrasted against his revelations, you can tell, but in the other direction.

If you are trying to say a prophet speaks as a prophet only when speaking as a prophet, I'll give you partial credit.

The problem Joseph has though is that many of his revelations after the BoM having proven false. Matter of fact, more have proven false than have come true.

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

Are you a prophet? Have all your prophecies come true?

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

Is this the revelation that you were talking about that you had been pondering about for several years and would prove to non LDS that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that LDS would have a harder time. And that Christians would be more accepting of? Or something like that?

No, this is not it.

~Seeker

[Shawn Henry]

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

And when he gives revelations, and they prove false? What does that prove? Is there a noticeable difference between the two?

[Seeker144k]

My argument is: My thoughts in red
1. Joseph received revelations. From all 3 sources, God, man, and the devil.

I agree. I think he did too.

2. Those revelations which supported his own goals, desires and views were not likely true revelations because to be a "revelation from the Lord" it must reveal new information from a mind greater than the revelator's, contradict or challenge the revelator's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, views, goals and desires. If it does not, then it was not a revelation. The Lord doesn't tell us what we already believe and call it a revelation. Revelations must be new information revealed to us. It does not have to be new information at all, the Lord can merely clarify old information, like when he says "it is written" and then explains what was written. It is wrong to say it must contradict. Often the receiving is specifically received because those very thoughts have been on that person's mind, like Alma stating that he has inquired much of the Lord to know about the resurrection and then the lord adds to his understanding because he sought and knocked. We do not ask, seek, and knock after contradictions.

Revelation is "the act of making something known that was secret". The revelation may include information that is already given but not understood. For example the book of Revelation has been given, but the meaning is largely not understood. So, if the Lord were to reference the known but not understood information already given in that book and clarify it, it would be because the clarification was not known or understood and was therefore new information. Another example is tithing. I new about tithing since I was a child, but it was revealed to me that tithing was not about paying ten percent of your gross income. The correction was the revelation or new information that caused me to adjust my actions or to understand more than I understood previously. I was already paying tithing on my gross. Why would the Lord reveal to me the same information that I already knew? If he did, it would be a confirmation and not a revelation. This may be symantics, but the point is that confirmations tells us that what already know is right and revelations tell us something new that we didn't previously know, believe or understand. It means to reveal something hidden from us previouosly.

3. If the Lord is revealing new information to Joseph, or anyone, then it must contradict the revelator's previous views, beliefs or understanding. Since it contradicts his own thoughts, it is likely that he will not understand or accept the revelations immediately or for years after. We have to distinguish between one's "previous views" and what scripture says. It doesn't really matter what previous views we have had; it matters what the view of scripture is. Paul and Joseph both teach us the standard of rejecting anything new if it is another gospel or contradicts the standard works. Contradictions are a big red flag.

Yes, contradicting existing scripture is something we must be very careful about. For example, when Paul said that women need to remain silent and not speak in church we need to understand why he said that and not just throw it out because it doesn't match up with our personal views. On the other hand, when the Lord tells Joseph that he doesn't comprehend understand or know something it is because Joseph is lacking knowledge on that topic.

4. Joseph Smith received many true revelations that contradicted his own views and beliefs. He didn't always understand or accept the revelation and so there are many instances in which the revelation was waisted or not applied and taught by Joseph Smith or the church. Instead, he taught his own beliefs and views which were contrary to the true revelations. If you are referring to section 130, the fact that the teaching contradicted the Bible, BoM, and D&C is all the proof you need to discard it.

I agree. But you just gave an example of what I am saying. If Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants from his own mind and thoughts, then they wouldn't contradict his own views and you wouldn't be pointing out that his own views spelled out in D&C 130 contradict the Book of Mormon and the D&C. Does that make sense? It means that the Book of Mormon and the D&C were not the result of Joseph Smith making up fake stories and revelations because a person who makes up fake stories and revelations and calls them scriptures would make them support his own views and there wouldn't be discrepencies between his views and the fake scriptures that he created. The fact that his views don't match up with the scriptures and revelations means that either he changed his views after creating the fake scriptures or the scriptures and revelations were not created by him and he didn't understand the scriptures. There is no evidence that he changed his views after creating the Book of Mormon and D&C. So, it is highly likely that these books were not created by Him and he didn't understand them and so taught contrary to them as a result. This means that the Book of Mormon and D&C were not his brain childs or created as a hoax from his own mind.

5. Joseph also made up some revelations which bolstered or supported his own beliefs, views and goals. Some examples are the ones you provided. True, but this can apply to both true and false.

Yes, but it can't apply to the revelations that he never understood which were right and match up with the Bible and Book of Mormon. For example, in D&C 20:37 the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins and truly manifest by their works". This matches up perfectly with 3 Nephi 7:25 and countless examples like Hel. 5 and Acts 10:44-47. But Joseph Smith, (and the church today), didn't teach or understand that the remission of sins could and should come before baptism. So, Joseph is in error, but the scriptures are true, even the ones that came through Joseph Smith, (the Book of Mormon and D&C). If the Book of Mormon and D&C were fake revelations created by Joseph Smith, then he would have made them teach what he taught and believed. He wouldn't have made them contradict what he taught and believed. This means that the Book of Mormon and D&C that came through Joseph Smith were not created by Joseph Smith. These then become evidences that he was a true prophet and these books were not written and authored by him but rather are true revelations.

6. Prophets are not all or nothing. Black and white, good and bad. They are people like you or me. Look at Jonah for example. He was a true prophet of God, as flawed as he was. I have had many revelations and I have made many mistakes and I have been confused and have even claimed revelation when it was not. I am much more experienced than Joseph and have had many more years of practice and miracles and visions and learning by the spirit. Yet, I am still not worth following. I am a prophet and have experienced prophecy and revelations and miracles which few could believe. Being a prophet doesn't mean what the church tells you it means. None but Jesus is worth following. David and Soloman were true prophets at one time, right? But, so what, true prophets can turn into fallen prophets. David and Soloman did feats as grand as Joseph did, why don't their works after those feats, their "Nauvoo works", get lauded like Joseph's? Because scripture tells us they were wrong. Most won't stop believing Joseph's post BoM teachings until new scripture tells them to.

Yes. Exactly. Excellent references with David and Solomon. That's part of my point. You can't trust everything a prophet says or does just because they were right once or twice. Just because the Book of Mormon was inspired doesn't mean the D&C is. Some sections of the D&C were inspiried revelations from the Lord, but not all. We don't just test a true prophet once, we must test everything. D&C 50:19-20 But, a false prophet was never true or never had a testimony of Jesus or the Holy Ghost which is the source of prophecy. False prophets should never be believed or trusted. True prophets should always be tested and will sometimes be correct and sometimes not. We should not believe them the way the church and anti-mormons teach where it is all or nothing.

7. Joseph was a liar, a fraud, a pedafile, a skeamster, a conman, a corrupt mayor, a false prophet and a true prophet of the Lord who revealed a great number of new revelations which I have proven true by my own experience. Was he better or worse than the prophet Jonah who was angry with God for not destroying Ninevah and told God several times to kill him because he felt it was better to die than deal with a little discomfort? Or was he better or worse than the Old Prophet who was a true prophet but stilllied to the man of God who was also a true prophet in 1 Kings 13 which resulted in the death of the man of God? The jury is still out as to whether he was a pedophile, I personally don't think he was. What makes you think he "revealed a great number of new revelations"? Which of them has proven true? This is the problem: Many have proven false, and none have proven true. There are many sections that might be true, but we still don't know.

I have proven many revelations in the D&C to be true from my own experience, by the spirit and visions and first hand experience as well as matching them up with other scriptures. For example the revelations on the kingdoms of glory. These can be shown by the Bible in verses like Heb. 6:1-6 and 2 Peter 1:10-13 where the writers are speaking to converted Saints who have begun the path of righteousness as converts to Christ and are being told that they have more to do. The three degrees of glory talked about in the Bible without the names given by Joseph Smith are:
1 - The unconverted or wicked - Those who are outside the gate to whom we preach Christ to.
2 - The converted or righteous - Those who entered in at the gate by receiving Christ, who are told to move on to Perfection and Calling and election made sure
3 - The Perfected whose election was made sure - Those who have walked the path and acheived eternal life, perfection through Christ and their Calling and election made sure.

These three groups are well deffined in the Bible and perfectly match up with the teachings in the Book of Mormon like 2 Nephi 31 and the degrees of Glory defined by name and described in D&C 76.

~Seeker

[CuriousThinker]

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".


I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.


The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

Are you a prophet? Have all your prophecies come true?

~Seeker

No, but I read the Bible and believe that Deuteronomy 13:1–5 is the way to test a prophet. God wants us to be able to discern between true and false prophets.

[CuriousThinker]

I agree that many of his "revelations" did not come true. And, much like Jonah, there are many things Joseph did and said that I cannot condone or support. But, I still realize Jonah was a true prophet of God as was Joseph Smith, flaws and all. I recognize the voice of the Lord in many of the revelations he recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, and I see that Joseph and the church didn't understand or apply those revelations.

Another example is D&C 20:37 in which the Lord commands the church not to baptize anyone unless they have first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins[/u][/b]".


I don't recall Joseph teaching that. The church doesn't teach that, rather the opposite. Most members would assume there is an error in the revelation or interpretation of the revelation. But, it highlights something valuable and important that the church doesn't teach or understand. The ordinances are dead physical works. The Remission of Sins does not come as a result of baptism but baptism is a sign, symbol or manifestation in the physical regarding the unseen spiritual experience we call the remission of sins.


The church does not teach us to be true worshippers. It teaches us to rely on dead works done in the flesh and not living works done in the spirit and in truth.

The revelations from the Lord in the D&C show that Joseph and the church do not know or understand the mind of God. Because of the contradiction, we know that they source is not the mind of Joseph or the teachings of the church. The church doesn't make manuals that teach contrary to their goals and views. Revelations from the Lord teach contrary to the goals and views of the person receiving the revelation. That's why it was revealed.

~Seeker

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

Just to be open and fair on this. There are no recorded prophecies of Jonah's that failed. A Prophet can easily be mislead by his own mind and bias.

It takes an extremely well trained mind to not allow personal ideas to interfere with revelation.

I was going off what Seeker said comparing Joseph to Jonah. If all we have is the fullfilled prophecy from Jonah, then I don't understand the comparison he made. Mistakes and failed prophecies are two different things.

[Seeker144k]

Jonah can make mistakes, but he never made a failed proohecy. That's the difference. A prophet's prophecies are supposed to all come true, otherwise they are a false prophet.

Are you a prophet? Have all your prophecies come true?

~Seeker

No, but I read the Bible and believe that Deuteronomy 13:1–5 is the way to test a prophet. God wants us to be able to discern between true and false prophets.

I'm just going to quote Elliaison.org. This is from their dictionary under "Prophet".

John the Revelator saw an angel who told him that the testimony of Christ was the spirit of prophecy and this put John on equal standing with the angel as a fellow servant of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. – Revelations 19:10

Joseph Smith considered himself a prophet because he had a testimony of Jesus from the Holy Ghost and he believed John in that any man who has a testimony of Jesus through the Holy Ghost has experienced the spirit of prophecy and was therefore a prophet.

Joseph was asked, “Do you believe Joseph Smith, Jun., to be a Prophet?”
He responded, “Yes, and every other man who has the testimony of Jesus. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. – Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Three p.119

Many of the sects cry out, “Oh, I have the testimony of Jesus; I have the spirit of God; but away with Joe Smith; he says he is a prophet; but there are to be no prophets or revelators in the last days.” Stop, sir! The Revelator says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; so by your own mouth you are condemned.” – Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.312

Joseph Smith taught anyone who is a teacher or preacher of righteousness must be a prophet or they are false teachers and impostors. This means that every member that fulfills a ministering, teaching or leadership position in the church, should be a prophet or prophetess.

“What Constitutes a Prophet? If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected. (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216.” – Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.269

“Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this.” – Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42, p.160

Because the testimony of Jesus by the power of the Holy Ghost is intended to come prior to baptism, all members of Christ’s church should be prophets.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! – Numbers 11:29

18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; – D&C 1:18-20

Anyone who has received the testimony of Christ by the spirit has experienced the spirit of prophecy. All other prophecies come by the spirit in the exact same way that we gain a testimony of Christ.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had read these things which were engraven upon the plates of brass, my brethren came unto me and said unto me: What meaneth these things which ye have read? Behold, are they to be understood according to things which are spiritual, which shall come to pass according to the spirit and not the flesh?
2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh. – 1 Nephi 22:2

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. – 2 Peter 1:21

A prophet is only a prophet when speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. To be a teacher or leader in the church, you must have and teach by the Holy Ghost or you are not of God.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God. – D&C 50:17-18

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. – D&C 68:2-4

20 And also that we may preserve unto them the words which have been spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets, which have been delivered unto them by the Spirit and power of God, since the world began, even down unto this present time. – 1 Nephi 3:20

… the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, … – D&C 20:26

… the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. – 1 Samuel 10:10

Joseph Smith wrote in his journal,

“Wednesday, Feb. 8.–This morning I read German and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that “a prophet is always a prophet;” but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such.”–DHC 5:265. – Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.278

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr. of the First Presidency wrote an article titled, "When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Being Scripture?" In that article he pointed out,

…even the President of the Church, himself, may not always be “moved upon by the Holy Ghost,” when he addresses the people. This has happened about matters of doctrine (usually of a highly speculative character) where subsequent Presidents of the Church and the peoples themselves have felt that in declaring the doctrine, the announcer was not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost. – When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Being Scripture?, President J. Reuben Clark, Jr. of the First Presidency (Church News, July 31, 1954; reprinted in Dialogue, Vol.12, No.2, p.68)

How do we know when someone is speaking as a prophet by the power of the Holy Ghost?

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr. continued in his article saying,

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost?”

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.”
In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak. – When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Being Scripture?, President J. Reuben Clark, Jr. of the First Presidency (Church News, July 31, 1954; reprinted in Dialogue, Vol.12, No.2, p.68)

…when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men. – 2 Nephi 33:1

19 And again, he that RECEIVETH the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. – D&C 50:19-23

Prophets should not use their priesthood, position or calling in the priesthood as a reason to follow or obey them, (maintaining power or influence over others). They should only maintain power and influence by persuasion as if they had no priesthood or position at all.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, ONLY by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, WHEN moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; – D&C 121:41-43

More instructions on how to recognize true and false prophets:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. – 1 John 4:1-3

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
…
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. – Matthew 7:13-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. – Galations 5:22-23

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. – Deuteronomy 18:21-22

~Seeker