Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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Arm Chair Quarterback
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Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM

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Fred
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM
I've seen both sides of this argument. I'm not convinced that Joseph called it a direct translation. It's kind of like people calling a parable or other story symbolic, when they actually do not know. For instance, you or I die and are granted the ability to speak as an angel with some people in another time period or on a different planet to help them get on the right path. We tell a truthful story that they are unfamiliar with. They call it a parable. For instance a religious leader was telling lies about airplane crashes, even though he was not the pilot apostle. Like Jim Jones, he even convinced many to take a suicide shot. Who would believe that a prophet did that if they were unaware of the story.

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BigT
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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I have some questions about the Book of Abraham. When did the Lord command Joseph to produce it? It’s not part of the new translation of the Bible. It’s obviously not a direct translation of any papyrus so if anything it’s a revelation. And it teaches doctrines not matched by any other scripture.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm "We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."
I've been accused of "black and white" thinking, but this guy takes the cake. There are so many other facets to the Restoration. While we can certainly speculate on the Book of Abraham and its origins, we could also look at the doctrine and narrative presented. My understanding of church history is that things went sideways after the death of the prophet and its anyone's guess as to how they collected and compiled many of the histories and records after that.

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OneEternalRound
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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A revelation given to Joseph Smith Jr. and Oliver Cowdery in Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they desired to know whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried on earth. Translated from parchment, written and hid up by himself.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 9-c-dc-7/1

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OneEternalRound
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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And the behold other records have I that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.

Be patient my son for it is wisdom in me and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ir-copy/33

Bronco73idi
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM
Chapter 1, Abraham priesthood authority over the pharaohs, This is missing in the Bible.

Chapter 2, another telling of Abraham’s blessings.

Chapter 3, teachings of the things that people don’t like outside of our religion. To say “I have said, ye are Gods” and mean that literally, it makes people upset. Silly John 10:34

Chapter 4, another version of the creation story…

Weird one would have an issue with BOA and not Book of Moses.

Fight for the right
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by Fight for the right »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM
Another nut

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Hogmeister
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by Hogmeister »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM
May I suggest to read up on 4 decades worth of BoA research instead of giving attention to this obvious hack.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... context=mi

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Libertas Est Salus
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by Libertas Est Salus »

I have proof Mike Winger is an idiot.

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Mindfields
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by Mindfields »

Hogmeister wrote: June 25th, 2024, 3:14 am
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 24th, 2024, 7:08 pm This isn't a new topic here (at least I don't think it is). Podcaster Mike Winger claims to have proof that Mormonism is not true. Mike writes: "This is not just conjecture. We have actual evidence that Joseph Smith was lying to Mormons when he invented his new "scripture" the Book of Abraham. This is proof that Mormonism is not true. The book of Abraham was not translated, it was fabricated. Here is the evidence. Share this video so that more people can be set free from the tangled lies of Joseph Smith. Mormons are the victims of Mormonism and we can show them love by showing them the truth so they can put faith in Jesus for real."

Apologists say that we don't have all the texts that composed the papyri purchase made in Kirtland. That said, the parts we do have raise some interesting questions:

Here's the link to Mike's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in-sPf0pLQM
May I suggest to read up on 4 decades worth of BoA research instead of giving attention to this obvious hack.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... context=mi
Apologetics would be a better description. Research implies getting as close to the truth as possible. True believers tend to form a conclusion and then cherry pick possibilities that will confirm their fore mentioned conclusion. I use the word possibilities because that's the best they, the Apologists, can do. Actual evidence is lacking and even contrary to their conclusion. The circumstances surrounding the providence of the Book of Abraham are dodgy.

“A translation of some ancient Records . . . , from the Cate-
combs of Egypt, purporting to be the writings of Abraham,
while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written
by his own hand, upon papyrus."

The explanation above is nonsense at best and an outright lie at the worst. Joseph Smith made an awful lot of conflicting pronouncements, produced dubious self serving revelations and continually undermined the Gospel taught in the Book of Mormon. I really think it's time to move on from trying to reconcile, reframe and defend all of the fever dream nonsense he continually spouted.

The Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses are pseudepigrapha. Nothing more.

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Thinker
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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Again…

Learning that a page in our scriptures - a drawing of that Egyptian papri -wasn’t as claimed, was a bit harder for me. Maybe because it was so clearly wrong & yet there it sits in my scriptures…

Image

“The Chain of Custody of Ancient Egyptian Papryi and How They Came into Eventual Possession by Joseph Smith

In July 1835, Joseph Smith purchased a collection of Egyptian papyri and some mummies from a traveling salesman named Michael H. Chandler, when the latter was traveling through the then-Mormon Church headquarters of Kirtland, Ohio, peddling his wares.

The collection which Smith bought from Chandler contained ancient Egyptian papyri that had initially been discovered in Thebes by Antonio Lebolo, who then sold them to Chandler who,in turn, ended up selling them to Smith.

In 1966, portions of this Smith parchment collection (thought to have been destroyed in the great Chicago fire of 1871) were unexpectedly discovered in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art by a University of Utah researcher and gifted a year later to the Mormon Church.

Now actual scientific examination of the true nature of the papyri could be performed, instead of merely taking Smith's weasly wordl for it.

Recall that after Chandler sold these papyri to Smith, the Mormon Church's founding fraudster emphatically declared their hieroglyphic symbols to be the original handwritten words of the Biblical prophet Abraham--accounts which Smith claimed were written by Abraham some 4,000 years earlier.

However, professional Egyptologists have since independently translated these papyri and dated them accurately. Unfortunately for Smith and his myth-produced Mormon Church, their contents do not conform in any reasonable or evidentiary fashion to the contents Smith said he "translated" into English.

Rather, the papryi actually find origination in the well-known and historically common ancient Egyptian "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian magic-myth relating to funeral rites performed on their dead, including the embalming of corpses. The papyri also contain now-familiar ancient Egyptian mythological tales involving various gods and goddesses, including fantasy accounts of the anticipated resurrection of the Egyptian god Osiris.

Modern-day Egyptian scholars have reliably dated these scrolls back to the first century A.D.--nearly 2,000 years after Smith falsely claimed that Abraham had personally handwritten them on Egyptian parchment.”


Funeral rites, not Abraham! Though my understanding is that Abraham (from Ur/Iraq grew up with human sacrifice rituals). But this realization that this document was actually about funeral rites doesn’t have to be looked on as horrible, because learning truth is good, though uncomfortable sometimes.

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dreamtheater76
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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They always think they are having a hay day with the Book of Abraham. Not so much with the Book of Moses where they avoid any discussion about it like the plague.

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dreamtheater76
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

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BigT wrote: June 24th, 2024, 9:54 pm I have some questions about the Book of Abraham. When did the Lord command Joseph to produce it? It’s not part of the new translation of the Bible. It’s obviously not a direct translation of any papyrus so if anything it’s a revelation. And it teaches doctrines not matched by any other scripture.
It was published in the Times & Seasons and was added to the Pearl of Great Price after Joseph Smiths death. It was not even finished yet when it was in that publication. Because of that it raises even more questions that probably couldn’t be answered by anyone except Joseph himself.
I find it an interesting read. Once again I don’t know much about what Joseph had to say about it.
It’s definitely not anything like the Book of Moses which I find remarkable. It’s more basic in the way it’s written but has information we wouldn’t have known otherwise if it wasn’t included.

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Hogmeister
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by Hogmeister »

dreamtheater76 wrote: June 25th, 2024, 12:25 pm
BigT wrote: June 24th, 2024, 9:54 pm I have some questions about the Book of Abraham. When did the Lord command Joseph to produce it? It’s not part of the new translation of the Bible. It’s obviously not a direct translation of any papyrus so if anything it’s a revelation. And it teaches doctrines not matched by any other scripture.
It was published in the Times & Seasons and was added to the Pearl of Great Price after Joseph Smiths death. It was not even finished yet when it was in that publication. Because of that it raises even more questions that probably couldn’t be answered by anyone except Joseph himself.
I find it an interesting read. Once again I don’t know much about what Joseph had to say about it.
It’s definitely not anything like the Book of Moses which I find remarkable. It’s more basic in the way it’s written but has information we wouldn’t have known otherwise if it wasn’t included.
I would suggest the King Follett discourse by JS was heavily influenced by what JS had learned from "translating" the book of Abraham.

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dreamtheater76
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Re: Mike Winger: "I Have Proof Mormonism Is Not True"

Post by dreamtheater76 »

Hogmeister wrote: June 26th, 2024, 2:47 am
dreamtheater76 wrote: June 25th, 2024, 12:25 pm
BigT wrote: June 24th, 2024, 9:54 pm I have some questions about the Book of Abraham. When did the Lord command Joseph to produce it? It’s not part of the new translation of the Bible. It’s obviously not a direct translation of any papyrus so if anything it’s a revelation. And it teaches doctrines not matched by any other scripture.
It was published in the Times & Seasons and was added to the Pearl of Great Price after Joseph Smiths death. It was not even finished yet when it was in that publication. Because of that it raises even more questions that probably couldn’t be answered by anyone except Joseph himself.
I find it an interesting read. Once again I don’t know much about what Joseph had to say about it.
It’s definitely not anything like the Book of Moses which I find remarkable. It’s more basic in the way it’s written but has information we wouldn’t have known otherwise if it wasn’t included.
I would suggest the King Follett discourse by JS was heavily influenced by what JS had learned from "translating" the book of Abraham.
Exactly. As well as the temple ordinances.

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