Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 28th, 2024, 7:46 pm If this was not the case and since your definition would put 99% of the world outside the Law, then the telestial kingdom would be the least populated. However, that is against the revelation of Joseph Smith as well as the prophesies of Isaiah. The telestial kingdom is the most heavily populated, which gives weight to my explanation.
My definition? What chapter is my definition? I don't have a definition; I'm simply repeating Mormon's words.

Perhaps you could explain what Mormon meant by saying all those who die without the law.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 28th, 2024, 10:44 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 28th, 2024, 7:46 pm If this was not the case and since your definition would put 99% of the world outside the Law, then the telestial kingdom would be the least populated. However, that is against the revelation of Joseph Smith as well as the prophesies of Isaiah. The telestial kingdom is the most heavily populated, which gives weight to my explanation.
My definition? What chapter is my definition? I don't have a definition; I'm simply repeating Mormon's words.

Perhaps you could explain what Mormon meant by saying all those who die without the law.
I already did. If everyone who dies without the law is not going to be condemned, how do you explain that the telestial kingdom will be the most populated? Logic says that those who inhabit the telestial kingdom must have had some of the Law.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 28th, 2024, 11:50 pm I already did. If everyone who dies without the law is not going to be condemned, how do you explain that the telestial kingdom will be the most populated? Logic says that those who inhabit the telestial kingdom must have had some of the Law.
I believe the 1828 revelation where the Lord tells JS he will have only one gift, to translate the BoM. Ever wonder why there are no witnesses raised up by God to testify of the D&C. There were no David, Oliver, and Martin who saw an angel and heard God's voice. No heavenly witnesses at all.

The BoM says those without the law are redeemed. Section 76 says those who die without the law inhabit a lesser kingdom, as if being redeemed means partial redemption. If those without the law are without sin, they are completely covered by the redemption of Christ. There is no such thing as partial redemption.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 29th, 2024, 12:48 am
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 28th, 2024, 11:50 pm I already did. If everyone who dies without the law is not going to be condemned, how do you explain that the telestial kingdom will be the most populated? Logic says that those who inhabit the telestial kingdom must have had some of the Law.
I believe the 1828 revelation where the Lord tells JS he will have only one gift, to translate the BoM. Ever wonder why there are no witnesses raised up by God to testify of the D&C. There were no David, Oliver, and Martin who saw an angel and heard God's voice. No heavenly witnesses at all.

The BoM says those without the law are redeemed. Section 76 says those who die without the law inhabit a lesser kingdom, as if being redeemed means partial redemption. If those without the law are without sin, they are completely covered by the redemption of Christ. There is no such thing as partial redemption.
Joseph Smith is the only seer of this dispensation because he is the only person to ever possess a Urim and Thummim (Mosiah 8:13). Possessing a Urim and Thummim also makes him "a revelator and a prophet also" (Mos 8:16). And "a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known" (vs 17). What you're saying is that God couldn't give Joseph further light and knowledge and revelations. You are putting limits on what God can do.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 29th, 2024, 12:48 am
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 28th, 2024, 11:50 pm I already did. If everyone who dies without the law is not going to be condemned, how do you explain that the telestial kingdom will be the most populated? Logic says that those who inhabit the telestial kingdom must have had some of the Law.
I believe the 1828 revelation where the Lord tells JS he will have only one gift, to translate the BoM. Ever wonder why there are no witnesses raised up by God to testify of the D&C. There were no David, Oliver, and Martin who saw an angel and heard God's voice. No heavenly witnesses at all.

The BoM says those without the law are redeemed. Section 76 says those who die without the law inhabit a lesser kingdom, as if being redeemed means partial redemption. If those without the law are without sin, they are completely covered by the redemption of Christ. There is no such thing as partial redemption.
To be redeemed in the context of D&C 76 means to be rescued from the horrors of hell. Those who are fully aware of the relevant laws of God, but who break them and won't repent, have to suffer in hell in order to pay for their sins themselves. They "must suffer even as I. Which suffering cause myself, even God, the greatest of all to tremble because of pain, and to bleed from every pore" etc.

Those who have committed sins unknowingly are redeemed from hell. That doesn't mean they're immediately heirs of celestial exaltation.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by OneEternalRound »

zoologist wrote: May 28th, 2024, 10:47 am
Shawn Henry wrote: May 28th, 2024, 10:17 am
zoologist wrote: May 27th, 2024, 8:53 pm … hence the baptism for the dead is really to bring back ancestors to inherit the kingdom of God on earth, and baptism for the living is meant to mimic the baptism for the dead and grant us access to the kingdom of God in our hearts in this life. Christ is still the Savior no matter what because He will save all the works of his hands.
I see your distinction, but if it was a true principle to be heavily emphasized in the latter-days, why would the Savior basically say forget the dead and focus on the living. Why undermine his great latter-day work? Saying, "Let the dead bury the dead", would be almost the same as saying, "Let the dead baptize the dead".
Good point. I think the answer to your question is that the baptisms for the dead—the legitimate ones to bring back the dead house of Israel to inhabit their lands of promise (Ezekiel 37)—were to only happen during the dispensation of the fullness of times and only in specific locations (D&C 124:31-41). That dispensation has not yet begun. We’re still in the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham.

Therefore, the great emphasis on baptisms for the dead in the current LDS church is misguided and is literally a dead work. The Lord Himself says in D&C 124:35 that if the saints didn’t complete His House on time, no baptisms for the dead would be accepted after that. And they never finished His house, whether it meant the Nauvoo Temple or the Nauvoo House.

Once the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times are given and proper houses for this purpose have been built in Zion and Jerusalem, then will baptisms be performed to bring back the dead as children to inherit their portions. Remember how anyone who won’t receive the kingdom of God “as a little child” shall not enter therein? (Mark 10)

That’s what I gather on the subject anyway.
I think D&C 124 reveals a lot more on this subject (and raises some important questions) if we're willing to study it out further.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Why are the living baptized? What is the covenant they are making if any?

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Another lie to paying to get the dead out of hell.

Heck the Book of Mormon teaches against baptisms for the dead (see 2 Nephi (LDS 9:26) (RLDS 6:54-55), Mosiah (LDS 3:11) (RLDS 1:107), Mosiah (LDS 15:24) (RLDS 8:58-59), Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27). Not to mention that the Book of Mormon teaches us we can not repent after we die (see 2 Nephi (LDS 2:21) (RLDS 1:107-110), Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75), Mosiah (LDS 15:26-27) (RLDS 8:61-65), Alma (LDS 34:32-35) (RLDS 16:228-234), Alma (LDS 42:13) (RLDS 19:94-95), Alma (LDS 42:28) (RLDS 19:111)).

Moroni (LDS 8:22-23) (RLDS 8:25-27)
22 For behold that all little children are ALIVE IN CHRIST, AND ALSO all they that are WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING— 23 But it is MOCKERY before God, DENYING the MERCIES of CHRIST, and the POWER of his HOLY SPIRIT, and putting trust in DEAD WORKS.

Mosiah (LDS 2:33) (RLDS 1:74-75) For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and DIETH IN HIS SINS, THE SAME DRINKETH DAMNATION TO HIS OWN SOUL; for he receiveth for his wages an EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

https://seekingyhwh.org/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 29th, 2024, 3:56 am What you're saying is that God couldn't give Joseph further light and knowledge and revelations. You are putting limits on what God can do.
No! God gave the limits himself. He specifically said he would only give Joseph the gift to translate the BoM. This is the same God who says he does not vary from that which he has said, either to the left or to the right.

Does your god vary from that which he has said?

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 29th, 2024, 12:18 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 29th, 2024, 3:56 am What you're saying is that God couldn't give Joseph further light and knowledge and revelations. You are putting limits on what God can do.
No! God gave the limits himself. He specifically said he would only give Joseph the gift to translate the BoM. This is the same God who says he does not vary from that which he has said, either to the left or to the right.

Does your god vary from that which he has said?
Just as Yeshua said not to go to the Gentiles ...

Looking at the changes in LDS D&C 5 and why it doesn’t bother me. Exposing the first part of LDS D&C 138.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-11-05/

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Robin Hood wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:49 am To be redeemed in the context of D&C 76 means to be rescued from the horrors of hell.
Which seems to be at odds with the BoM context. I'll side with the BoM, if that's ok.
Robin Hood wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:49 am They "must suffer even as I. Which suffering cause myself, even God, the greatest of all to tremble because of pain, and to bleed from every pore" etc.
This is a "howler" in the D&C, a statement with a big red flag to its authenticity. No one is capable of suffering "even as" God. His limits would not be possible for us and our limits would be easy for him. I'm surprised members haven't thought this out better.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 28th, 2024, 10:02 am
nightlight wrote: May 27th, 2024, 8:08 pm All people are born with a conscience... Those that are without the law are judged by their conscience, they are not damned for their absence of repentance and baptism of water&fire. Christ fills that gap.

"16] For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil;"

This is what Adam gained from eating the fruit... and it's passed down to all who come through the womb.

But for those who are born into the knowledge of Him... water&fire are the only way home
No they are not. Those without the law are redeemed, they are without sin, just like little children. Read Moroni 8. Of course, all have the "Spirit of Christ", but that is not the law and that doesn't mean they are not redeemed.
not true. Everyone was given the light of Christ in the premortal council. EVERYONE had then what it takes to judge to the level of the law they can abide. Some in this life are outside the law. That is they are unable to choose. Not that they don't know good from evil. But they are unable to choose or comprehend. Little children don't yet mature to that state and many mentally ill are the same.

There are many laws, everyone (with a mental capacity of any level) has the ability to follow some laws. What is said is that for those that don't, Jesus takes care of them That is all. It is called infirmities. And Jesus paid freely. BTW many can only live partial set of laws for various infirmities, it isn't an all or nothing like or children. Some don't comprehend small sets of things due to DNA, upbringing, teaching, etc...

Not complicated IMO. Read 88, ALL have some level of law. Except those incapacitated by age (old or young) and the infirmed. (Note read a bit about transgression vs. sin as well, there is little black-and-white, many shades of grey, hence god's judgement and the atonement).

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

42 And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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LDS Physician wrote: May 27th, 2024, 10:03 amWhy baptism for the dead?
Why is the Church obsessed with doing ordinances for so many of the dead, especially when considering what Joseph allegedly said about it?

Looking at "Words of Joseph Smith" (compiled by Andrew Ehat), I see several references to Joseph teaching about baptism (and other ordinances) for the dead (in the 1840's). But it doesn't quite match how it's done today..

For example:
"...there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends, who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordinances of the Gospel which was laid out before the foundation of the world has been thus fulfilled, by them, and we may be baptized for those who we have much friendship for, but it must be first revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far ..." [Source: 12 May 1844 (Sunday Morning). Temple Stand. Thomas Bullock Report]

Joseph emphasized doing the work for close family and friends (people they actually knew in their lifetime), in contrast to the expansive amount of work for the dead going on today.

Seems we've "run too far".

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 29th, 2024, 12:18 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 29th, 2024, 3:56 am What you're saying is that God couldn't give Joseph further light and knowledge and revelations. You are putting limits on what God can do.
No! God gave the limits himself. He specifically said he would only give Joseph the gift to translate the BoM. This is the same God who says he does not vary from that which he has said, either to the left or to the right.

Does your god vary from that which he has said?
Oh, please. You're squirming like a worm on a hook. You're wrong with your narrow interpretation.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Why are the living baptized and what covenants are they making?
:)

Come on, am I really that easy to ignore on this thread? I can be more obnoxious if needed.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 29th, 2024, 4:45 pm Why are the living baptized and what covenants are they making?
:)

Come on, am I really that easy to ignore on this thread? I can be more obnoxious if needed.
I see you, RW. 😁

Alma taught us simply enough.

Mosiah 18: 8
And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

blitzinstripes wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:16 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 29th, 2024, 4:45 pm Why are the living baptized and what covenants are they making?
:)

Come on, am I really that easy to ignore on this thread? I can be more obnoxious if needed.
I see you, RW. 😁

Alma taught us simply enough.

Mosiah 18: 8
And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?
I think this is a beautiful description of the covenant. I often wonder if most people realize this.  When I was baptized at 8 yrs old I certainly didn’t, nor was it explained to me as such.

So if this is the covenant made for the living, how might this be accomplished for the dead who knew nothing about Jesus or His commandments?

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by tacocat »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:35 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:16 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 29th, 2024, 4:45 pm Why are the living baptized and what covenants are they making?
:)

Come on, am I really that easy to ignore on this thread? I can be more obnoxious if needed.
I see you, RW. 😁

Alma taught us simply enough.

Mosiah 18: 8
And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?
I think this is a beautiful description of the covenant. I often wonder if most people realize this.  When I was baptized at 8 yrs old I certainly didn’t, nor was it explained to me as such.

So if this is the covenant made for the living, how might this be accomplished for the dead who knew nothing about Jesus or His commandments?
1 Peter 3:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Naturally, low hanging fruit. My question is: since Peter seems to qualify this statement with a reference to the wholly corrupted inhabitants in Noah's time, does this apply universally, or only to them? Or only to those like them who are so far gone that they must be swept from off the land?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Shawn Henry »

blitzinstripes wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:16 pm even until death
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 29th, 2024, 5:35 pm I think this is a beautiful description of the covenant.
That's an easy covenant for the dead, lol. "You mean, I only have to do this until I'm dead. Ok, sign me up, I can manage that one."

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 29th, 2024, 4:43 pm Oh, please. You're squirming like a worm on a hook. You're wrong with your narrow interpretation.
Read it for yourself. Here's the original.

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."

Which was changed to this:

"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished."

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 30th, 2024, 1:44 am
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: May 29th, 2024, 4:43 pm Oh, please. You're squirming like a worm on a hook. You're wrong with your narrow interpretation.
Read it for yourself. Here's the original.

"...and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."

Which was changed to this:

"...and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished."
Did you notice "this is the first gift". It doesn't say it was the only gift. Describing it as the first suggests there will be others. Also the "until it is finished" bit?
While Joseph was engaged in the translation he would have no other gift. But that doesn't mean there will be no others once the translation is finished.
It's good to read what is actually said, rather than what you want it to say.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Mindfields »

The entire verse in the Book of Commandments

4:2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him:--I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by LDS Physician »

creator wrote: May 29th, 2024, 3:38 pm
LDS Physician wrote: May 27th, 2024, 10:03 amWhy baptism for the dead?
Why is the Church obsessed with doing ordinances for so many of the dead, especially when considering what Joseph allegedly said about it?

Looking at "Words of Joseph Smith" (compiled by Andrew Ehat), I see several references to Joseph teaching about baptism (and other ordinances) for the dead (in the 1840's). But it doesn't quite match how it's done today..

For example:
"...there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends, who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordinances of the Gospel which was laid out before the foundation of the world has been thus fulfilled, by them, and we may be baptized for those who we have much friendship for, but it must be first revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far ..." [Source: 12 May 1844 (Sunday Morning). Temple Stand. Thomas Bullock Report]

Joseph emphasized doing the work for close family and friends (people they actually knew in their lifetime), in contrast to the expansive amount of work for the dead going on today.

Seems we've "run too far".
Great quote. I've never heard that.

Have we "run too far" in thinking we need to do endowment sessions and even sealings for the dead?

When there are not scriptures laid out plainly describing the proper administration of such ordinances, I have to wonder if what we are doing is legitimate.

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Re: Why Baptism for the Dead?

Post by Robin Hood »

creator wrote: May 29th, 2024, 3:38 pm
LDS Physician wrote: May 27th, 2024, 10:03 amWhy baptism for the dead?
Why is the Church obsessed with doing ordinances for so many of the dead, especially when considering what Joseph allegedly said about it?

Looking at "Words of Joseph Smith" (compiled by Andrew Ehat), I see several references to Joseph teaching about baptism (and other ordinances) for the dead (in the 1840's). But it doesn't quite match how it's done today..

For example:
"...there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends, who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordinances of the Gospel which was laid out before the foundation of the world has been thus fulfilled, by them, and we may be baptized for those who we have much friendship for, but it must be first revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far ..." [Source: 12 May 1844 (Sunday Morning). Temple Stand. Thomas Bullock Report]

Joseph emphasized doing the work for close family and friends (people they actually knew in their lifetime), in contrast to the expansive amount of work for the dead going on today.

Seems we've "run too far".
When I was young the counsel was that we should only seek out 4 generations. Nowadays that seems to have been discarded in favour of a more the merrier policy.

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