The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

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kirtland r.m.
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The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by kirtland r.m. »

More Navajos are joining the Church, ,also they know Lehis story. Thier neighbors know well the Liahona.
Post by kirtland r.m. » Wed May 22, 2024 6:47 pm

Converting, she said, “wasn’t about turning away and embracing an entirely different tradition; it was about reconnecting.”https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/us/f ... hurch.html

Navajo tradition tells that a man and his wife and four sons came to this land a long time ago. They have, in their native language, the names of these four sons, but I cannot write them. The oldest two of these sons rebelled against the youngest two who were the appointed leaders. The older sons and their children lived in the forest. They made their living by hunting and by the use of the weapons of warfare. They warred and preyed upon their two younger brothers. They covered their bodies with mud and thus became a dark people. The two younger sons became builders and built cities and houses of stone. They planted gardens and fields. They did not place mud upon themselves and thus remained white. For generations there were fighting, wars, and difficulties, the children of the older sons being the aggressors.

Then came a night in which the sun didn't go down, and it was light all night, and the people were much disturbed and' distressed. But still there were troubles. Some years after this, came an extended period of darkness.
p 241 see below Golden R. Buchanan

And the stunning evidence continues to pile up!

Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

Here is a little bonus.

Recently I was on the Papago Reservation (not far from the Navajo). One of our new converts to the Church there told me this story:

“I had never joined any church because the ministers and the priests did not teach the Bible as I read it. I couldn’t read it and make it say the same things the other churches said it did. I speak the Papago language. I have lived among them all my life. I know their story and their traditions. And as I read the Book of Mormon that was placed in my hands by missionaries, I recognized the stories of the Papago, and I knew the book was true. Your missionaries read the Bible the same way I did. These are the reasons I joined the Church. The Papago believed they crossed the ocean and came to this land, that in the ships and on the trails they were guided by a ball. In this ball was a needle that pointed the direction they were to go. In the Papago language yet today, the name of this ball is ‘Liahona.’ LAMANITE TRADITION by Golden R. Buchanan PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST INDIAN MISSION IMPROVEMENT ERA APRIL 1955 SPECIAL LAMANITE ISSUE

With relics to match each of the relics of the Ark of the Covenant, the Nephites could have a reasonable imitation of Solomon’s temple in spirit and function, making the Holy of Holies an suitably sacred place.

There’s more to the Liahona that we should consider. Long ago I had correspondence with a man studying to become a Rabbi who was also impressed with the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient Jewish text. He wasn’t LDS and I’m not sure what became of his interest, but he offered his rough analysis of the word Liahona, opining that it was good Hebrew. He said the name (lamed-yud-hey-vav-nun-alef in Hebrew) is related to known Hebrew words with relevant meanings:

LIA (lamed-yud-hey), Strongs 3914: something round; a wreath
LAWAH (lamed-vav-hey), Strongs 3867: to bind around; to wreathe; to start or stop
LON (lamed-vav-nun), Strongs 3885, from LAWAH: to abide, to dwell, to remain or to continue.
That was interesting, but recently I noticed that a much more complete exploration of the name has been conducted: James Curci, “Liahona, ‘The Direction of the Lord,” An Etymological Explanation,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 16, no. 2 (2007): pp. 60-67, 97-98. Curci concludes that Liahona is a word coined by Nephi and/or Lehi using Hebrew elements conveying the meaning “The Direction (Director) of YHWH” or literally “To the Lord Is the Whither.” As is so often the case in the Book of Mormon, there are interesting Hebrew word plays in the text that only recently are coming to light. In this case, the use of the word “whither” in relationship to Liahona-related passages in First Nephi link to the “whither” (hona) element of the name. The Increasingly Interesting Liahona.https://www.arisefromthedust.com/the-in ... g-liahona/]

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Robin Hood
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Robin Hood »

kirtland r.m. wrote: May 22nd, 2024, 7:00 pm More Navajos are joining the Church, ,also they know Lehis story. Thier neighbors know well the Liahona.
Post by kirtland r.m. » Wed May 22, 2024 6:47 pm

Converting, she said, “wasn’t about turning away and embracing an entirely different tradition; it was about reconnecting.”https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/us/f ... hurch.html

Navajo tradition tells that a man and his wife and four sons came to this land a long time ago. They have, in their native language, the names of these four sons, but I cannot write them. The oldest two of these sons rebelled against the youngest two who were the appointed leaders. The older sons and their children lived in the forest. They made their living by hunting and by the use of the weapons of warfare. They warred and preyed upon their two younger brothers. They covered their bodies with mud and thus became a dark people. The two younger sons became builders and built cities and houses of stone. They planted gardens and fields. They did not place mud upon themselves and thus remained white. For generations there were fighting, wars, and difficulties, the children of the older sons being the aggressors.

Then came a night in which the sun didn't go down, and it was light all night, and the people were much disturbed and' distressed. But still there were troubles. Some years after this, came an extended period of darkness.
p 241 see below Golden R. Buchanan

And the stunning evidence continues to pile up!

Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

Here is a little bonus.

Recently I was on the Papago Reservation (not far from the Navajo). One of our new converts to the Church there told me this story:

“I had never joined any church because the ministers and the priests did not teach the Bible as I read it. I couldn’t read it and make it say the same things the other churches said it did. I speak the Papago language. I have lived among them all my life. I know their story and their traditions. And as I read the Book of Mormon that was placed in my hands by missionaries, I recognized the stories of the Papago, and I knew the book was true. Your missionaries read the Bible the same way I did. These are the reasons I joined the Church. The Papago believed they crossed the ocean and came to this land, that in the ships and on the trails they were guided by a ball. In this ball was a needle that pointed the direction they were to go. In the Papago language yet today, the name of this ball is ‘Liahona.’ LAMANITE TRADITION by Golden R. Buchanan PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST INDIAN MISSION IMPROVEMENT ERA APRIL 1955 SPECIAL LAMANITE ISSUE

With relics to match each of the relics of the Ark of the Covenant, the Nephites could have a reasonable imitation of Solomon’s temple in spirit and function, making the Holy of Holies an suitably sacred place.

There’s more to the Liahona that we should consider. Long ago I had correspondence with a man studying to become a Rabbi who was also impressed with the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient Jewish text. He wasn’t LDS and I’m not sure what became of his interest, but he offered his rough analysis of the word Liahona, opining that it was good Hebrew. He said the name (lamed-yud-hey-vav-nun-alef in Hebrew) is related to known Hebrew words with relevant meanings:

LIA (lamed-yud-hey), Strongs 3914: something round; a wreath
LAWAH (lamed-vav-hey), Strongs 3867: to bind around; to wreathe; to start or stop
LON (lamed-vav-nun), Strongs 3885, from LAWAH: to abide, to dwell, to remain or to continue.
That was interesting, but recently I noticed that a much more complete exploration of the name has been conducted: James Curci, “Liahona, ‘The Direction of the Lord,” An Etymological Explanation,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 16, no. 2 (2007): pp. 60-67, 97-98. Curci concludes that Liahona is a word coined by Nephi and/or Lehi using Hebrew elements conveying the meaning “The Direction (Director) of YHWH” or literally “To the Lord Is the Whither.” As is so often the case in the Book of Mormon, there are interesting Hebrew word plays in the text that only recently are coming to light. In this case, the use of the word “whither” in relationship to Liahona-related passages in First Nephi link to the “whither” (hona) element of the name. The Increasingly Interesting Liahona.https://www.arisefromthedust.com/the-in ... g-liahona/]
There are a couple of issues with this for me.
1. Lehi had six sons, not four.
2. The story is presented from a Nephite perspective.
I would find it more believable if it said their ancestors were the oldest and had the right to rule, but they were usurped by their younger brother etc.

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tmac
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by tmac »

Good points. And it would also be more persuasive if there was genetic evidence that they are actually Lamanites, and have middle eastern DNA. I’ve asked before, and I’ll ask again: Who/where are the actual Lamanites?

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Being There
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Being There »

tmac wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 5:10 am Good points. And it would also be more persuasive if there was genetic evidence that they are actually Lamanites, and have middle eastern DNA. I’ve asked before, and I’ll ask again: Who/where are the actual Lamanites?
Who/where.

I think those questions - to a great deal - can be answered - of course in The Book of Mormon
and by these words of Jesus Christ - to those very people - the Lamanites - who are of
The House of Israel.



LDS Quote
"Who are the Lamanites?

The Book of Mormon was written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the house of Israel’
(see BOM Title Page).


Quote
"Where did the Lamanites come from?
These groups began as the descendants of two Israelite brothers.
Over time, the group known as Lamanites grew to include others,
such as some who “had become Lamanites because of their dissensions” from the Nephites."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who was Jesus Christ talking to, and where was He standing when He said "this land". ?

Because we know from the scriptures that the Gentiles includes us - the church
and primarily make up all the people in the U.S.. (America).
And that The New Jerusalem will be built here on this North America continent;*****
then "this Land" has to be none other than "this choice land" the land of America -
which has been given to The House of Israel.



22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.

3 Nephi 20

14 And the Father hath commanded me
that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob,
go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many;
and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can delive

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.

*****
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.
And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea,
even I will be in the midst of you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Nephi 21:
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles,
yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest,
as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who,if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

quote
The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles.
He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power.

Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces.
Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities.
The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish."
Last edited by Being There on May 23rd, 2024, 1:36 pm, edited 6 times in total.


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Being There
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Being There »

Being There wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 9:36 am
tmac wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 5:10 am Good points. And it would also be more persuasive if there was genetic evidence that they are actually Lamanites, and have middle eastern DNA. I’ve asked before, and I’ll ask again: Who/where are the actual Lamanites?
Who/where.

I think those questions - to a great deal - can be answered - of course in The Book of Mormon
and by these words of Jesus Christ - to those very people - the Lamanites - who are of
The House of Israel.



Quote
"Who are the Lamanites?

The Book of Mormon was written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the house of Israel’
(see BOM Title Page).


Quote
"Where did the Lamanites come from?
These groups began as the descendants of two Israelite brothers.
Over time, the group known as Lamanites grew to include others,
such as some who “had become Lamanites because of their dissensions” from the Nephites."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who was Jesus Christ talking to, and where was He standing when He said "this land". ?

Because we know from the scriptures that the Gentiles includes us - the church
and primarily make up all the people in the U.S.. (America).
And that The New Jerusalem will be built here on this North America continent;*****
then "this Land" has to be none other than "this choice land" the land of America -
which has been given to The House of Israel.



22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.

3 Nephi 20

14 And the Father hath commanded me
that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob,
go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many;
and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.

*****
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.
And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea,
even I will be in the midst of you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Nephi 21:
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles,
yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest,
as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who,if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

quote
The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles.
He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power.

Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces.
Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities.
The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish."
so we've already established that the Lamanites, are a remnant of the house of Israel.
And while I guess we could just think that the Lamanites could be anyone - and from anywhere,
the Lord was speaking to them in "this land" - referring to the land where the New Jerusalem
will be built - the "choice land" of America, and to the land which is given to them for their inheritance.

So if they were in America, who now is in America - "among the Gentiles"
and who could they be ?
Who are their descendants ?
AMERICAN INDIANS ?
Mexicans ?
any other suggestions ?

here are some glues that may help us.
look for
"among the Gentiles"
"in the midst of them"
"go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many;
and ye shall be among them"


3 Nephi 20
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob,
go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many;
and ye shall be among them
as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver

3 Nephi 21:
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles,
yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest,
as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

If it IS the AMERICAN INDIANS,
please tell me how they could possible fulfill this scripture -
with Indians being so so few, how could they possibly -
be "as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep,
who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver"
(the Gentiles - all the people in the U.S. ? "who shall be many")
Could the AMERICAN INDIANS really do this ?

WHO ELSE ARE AMONG US -- THE GENTILES IN THE U.S. ?
and "in the midst of them" ?
and who would fulfill what the scriptures are saying about the House of Israel, and what they will do ?

Could it be the Mexicans ?
There is enough of them; and they are "among the Gentiles" "who shall be many"
and "in the midst of them" .
Could they possibly be "as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep,
who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver"

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tmac
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Posts: 4559
Location: Reality

Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by tmac »

With respect to the whole concept of a "Remnant of Jacob," a number of people have certainly made speculations along those lines in the past. Given the fact that Jacob (Israel) had so many children and descendants (including both Ephraim, Manasseh, and the other 10 trib s), there are a lot of people who might potentially fit the description of Remnant of Jacob, but from from my perspective, in order to be a "Lamanite," one would have to be a direct, genetic descendant of the original Lamanites, and that is an even more complex equation, that is ripe for a broad spectrum of speculation, and seemingly few concrete answers.
Last edited by tmac on May 23rd, 2024, 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirtland r.m.
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Posts: 5201

Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Robin Hood wrote: May 22nd, 2024, 11:38 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: May 22nd, 2024, 7:00 pm More Navajos are joining the Church, ,also they know Lehis story. Thier neighbors know well the Liahona.
Post by kirtland r.m. » Wed May 22, 2024 6:47 pm

Converting, she said, “wasn’t about turning away and embracing an entirely different tradition; it was about reconnecting.”https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/us/f ... hurch.html

Navajo tradition tells that a man and his wife and four sons came to this land a long time ago. They have, in their native language, the names of these four sons, but I cannot write them. The oldest two of these sons rebelled against the youngest two who were the appointed leaders. The older sons and their children lived in the forest. They made their living by hunting and by the use of the weapons of warfare. They warred and preyed upon their two younger brothers. They covered their bodies with mud and thus became a dark people. The two younger sons became builders and built cities and houses of stone. They planted gardens and fields. They did not place mud upon themselves and thus remained white. For generations there were fighting, wars, and difficulties, the children of the older sons being the aggressors.

Then came a night in which the sun didn't go down, and it was light all night, and the people were much disturbed and' distressed. But still there were troubles. Some years after this, came an extended period of darkness.
p 241 see below Golden R. Buchanan

And the stunning evidence continues to pile up!

Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

Here is a little bonus.

Recently I was on the Papago Reservation (not far from the Navajo). One of our new converts to the Church there told me this story:

“I had never joined any church because the ministers and the priests did not teach the Bible as I read it. I couldn’t read it and make it say the same things the other churches said it did. I speak the Papago language. I have lived among them all my life. I know their story and their traditions. And as I read the Book of Mormon that was placed in my hands by missionaries, I recognized the stories of the Papago, and I knew the book was true. Your missionaries read the Bible the same way I did. These are the reasons I joined the Church. The Papago believed they crossed the ocean and came to this land, that in the ships and on the trails they were guided by a ball. In this ball was a needle that pointed the direction they were to go. In the Papago language yet today, the name of this ball is ‘Liahona.’ LAMANITE TRADITION by Golden R. Buchanan PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST INDIAN MISSION IMPROVEMENT ERA APRIL 1955 SPECIAL LAMANITE ISSUE

With relics to match each of the relics of the Ark of the Covenant, the Nephites could have a reasonable imitation of Solomon’s temple in spirit and function, making the Holy of Holies an suitably sacred place.

There’s more to the Liahona that we should consider. Long ago I had correspondence with a man studying to become a Rabbi who was also impressed with the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient Jewish text. He wasn’t LDS and I’m not sure what became of his interest, but he offered his rough analysis of the word Liahona, opining that it was good Hebrew. He said the name (lamed-yud-hey-vav-nun-alef in Hebrew) is related to known Hebrew words with relevant meanings:

LIA (lamed-yud-hey), Strongs 3914: something round; a wreath
LAWAH (lamed-vav-hey), Strongs 3867: to bind around; to wreathe; to start or stop
LON (lamed-vav-nun), Strongs 3885, from LAWAH: to abide, to dwell, to remain or to continue.
That was interesting, but recently I noticed that a much more complete exploration of the name has been conducted: James Curci, “Liahona, ‘The Direction of the Lord,” An Etymological Explanation,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 16, no. 2 (2007): pp. 60-67, 97-98. Curci concludes that Liahona is a word coined by Nephi and/or Lehi using Hebrew elements conveying the meaning “The Direction (Director) of YHWH” or literally “To the Lord Is the Whither.” As is so often the case in the Book of Mormon, there are interesting Hebrew word plays in the text that only recently are coming to light. In this case, the use of the word “whither” in relationship to Liahona-related passages in First Nephi link to the “whither” (hona) element of the name. The Increasingly Interesting Liahona.https://www.arisefromthedust.com/the-in ... g-liahona/]
There are a couple of issues with this for me.
1. Lehi had six sons, not four.
2. The story is presented from a Nephite perspective.
I would find it more believable if it said their ancestors were the oldest and had the right to rule, but they were usurped by their younger brother etc.
I would be glad to put an article together on this for you. Also, remember Israel (Jacob) got his older brother's inheritance blessings.

larsenb
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Posts: 11153
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by larsenb »

kirtland r.m. wrote: May 22nd, 2024, 7:00 pm More Navajos are joining the Church, ,also they know Lehis story. Thier neighbors know well the Liahona.
Post by kirtland r.m. » Wed May 22, 2024 6:47 pm

Converting, she said, “wasn’t about turning away and embracing an entirely different tradition; it was about reconnecting.”https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/us/f ... hurch.html

Navajo tradition tells that a man and his wife and four sons came to this land a long time ago. They have, in their native language, the names of these four sons, but I cannot write them. The oldest two of these sons rebelled against the youngest two who were the appointed leaders. The older sons and their children lived in the forest. They made their living by hunting and by the use of the weapons of warfare. They warred and preyed upon their two younger brothers. They covered their bodies with mud and thus became a dark people. The two younger sons became builders and built cities and houses of stone. They planted gardens and fields. They did not place mud upon themselves and thus remained white. For generations there were fighting, wars, and difficulties, the children of the older sons being the aggressors.

Then came a night in which the sun didn't go down, and it was light all night, and the people were much disturbed and' distressed. But still there were troubles. Some years after this, came an extended period of darkness.
p 241 see below Golden R. Buchanan

And the stunning evidence continues to pile up!

Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242 , , , ,,
Some problems with this post. First the NYT link is broken, so there’s no way we can find out what the article actually said from what you’ve provided.

And your next few paragraphs are quite confusing. Are these your words for what someone else allegedly said, or what? Best to give actual quotes instead of paraphrasing. And once again, you’ve made the claim about sheep in western NY before, and I don’t recall you ever replied to my questions about this allegation in previous threads. For instance, can you give us quotes about how the person finding the alleged ancient sheep bones determined that they were > 2 thousand years old? That’s a simple request. Can you supply this information?

Now your Papago quote is certainly intriguing. I assume its is an accurate quote from the Buchanan publication you cite. But notice how the Papagos are far, far away from the eastern Indians, Meldrum, et al., claim are the true descendants of the Nephites/Lamanites. How can that be?

And your last offerings on the Liahona from the Journal of Book of Mormon studies and the one by Jeff Lindsay in the Arise From the Dust blog are excellent. Thanks on these two articles.

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Being There
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Being There »

tmac wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 5:27 pm With respect to the whole concept of a "Remnant of Jacob," a number of people have certainly made speculations along those lines in the past. Given the fact that Jacob (Israel) had so many children and descendants (including both Ephraim, Manasseh, and the other 10 trib s), there are a lot of people who might potentially fit the description of Remnant of Jacob, but from from my perspective, in order to be a "Lamanite," one would have to be a direct, genetic descendant of the original Lamanites, and that is an even more complex equation, that is ripe for a broad spectrum of speculation, and seemingly few concrete answers.
ya, I think you're right tmac.
I guess much of how I'm thinking about it - is really just speculation on my part.
I seem to be questioning really who and where the Lamanites are, as much as you.

I was just thinking that they may be some group of people right around us - in the U.S.,
like the American Indians, or the Mexicans.
But who knows.

Hiker
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Posts: 373

Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Hiker »

Being There wrote: May 24th, 2024, 9:51 am
tmac wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 5:27 pm With respect to the whole concept of a "Remnant of Jacob," a number of people have certainly made speculations along those lines in the past. Given the fact that Jacob (Israel) had so many children and descendants (including both Ephraim, Manasseh, and the other 10 trib s), there are a lot of people who might potentially fit the description of Remnant of Jacob, but from from my perspective, in order to be a "Lamanite," one would have to be a direct, genetic descendant of the original Lamanites, and that is an even more complex equation, that is ripe for a broad spectrum of speculation, and seemingly few concrete answers.
ya, I think you're right tmac.
I guess much of how I'm thinking about it - is really just speculation on my part.
I seem to be questioning really who and where the Lamanites are, as much as you.

I was just thinking that they may be some group of people right around us - in the U.S.,
like the American Indians, or the Mexicans.
But who knows.
Some years ago, I spent two weeks in the Navajo nation. The Navajo told me that they came from the north probably the Bering Strait

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kittycat51
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by kittycat51 »

How about this? How many of you have seen this? This is a man named David Taylor, chief of the Ojibwe tribe of Indians who claims his tribe in the Northern US and Canada has a shared history with the Book of Mormon peoples and he has records and initiation rituals which prove it. Several rabbis (both local and in Israel) both attest to his claims. This is absolutely incredible if what he’s saying is true. Also blows a bit of the meso theory up.

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tmac
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by tmac »

It sounds good. What does their DNA testing show? When people make such claims, but their DNA is Mongolian, via the Bering Straits, it kind of torpedos the idea. But I’ve heard that Iroquois, Seneca, and other Northeastern tribes, possibly including the Ojibwe, might have middle eastern DNA.

larsenb
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by larsenb »

Hiker wrote: May 24th, 2024, 10:31 am
Being There wrote: May 24th, 2024, 9:51 am
tmac wrote: May 23rd, 2024, 5:27 pm With respect to the whole concept of a "Remnant of Jacob," a number of people have certainly made speculations along those lines in the past. Given the fact that Jacob (Israel) had so many children and descendants (including both Ephraim, Manasseh, and the other 10 trib s), there are a lot of people who might potentially fit the description of Remnant of Jacob, but from from my perspective, in order to be a "Lamanite," one would have to be a direct, genetic descendant of the original Lamanites, and that is an even more complex equation, that is ripe for a broad spectrum of speculation, and seemingly few concrete answers.
ya, I think you're right tmac.
I guess much of how I'm thinking about it - is really just speculation on my part.
I seem to be questioning really who and where the Lamanites are, as much as you.

I was just thinking that they may be some group of people right around us - in the U.S.,
like the American Indians, or the Mexicans.
But who knows.
Some years ago, I spent two weeks in the Navajo nation. The Navajo told me that they came from the north probably the Bering Strait
Yes, and they came fairly recently, to my understanding. They speak an Athabaskan language, very prevalent in Alaska and NW Canada. The DesNews did a couple of articles a few years ago on a Siberian group that had suffered a lot from USSR Nuclear testing, very much like the Navaho/Downwinders. The article went into their customs and even the name for themselves, and they were very similar to the Navajo, including the name, Dina (sp) . . . photos of them also very much like the Navaho.

Speculation is they may have come over the land bridge to escape being forced into Ghengis Khan's horde.

Dave62
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by Dave62 »

kittycat51 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 11:00 pm How about this? How many of you have seen this? This is a man named David Taylor, chief of the Ojibwe tribe of Indians who claims his tribe in the Northern US and Canada has a shared history with the Book of Mormon peoples and he has records and initiation rituals which prove it. Several rabbis (both local and in Israel) both attest to his claims. This is absolutely incredible if what he’s saying is true. Also blows a bit of the meso theory up.
Please, Kittycat! You will upset the intellectual gatekeepers who guard the Meso money cow.

larsenb
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by larsenb »

Dave62 wrote: May 26th, 2024, 8:28 pm
kittycat51 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 11:00 pm How about this? How many of you have seen this? This is a man named David Taylor, chief of the Ojibwe tribe of Indians who claims his tribe in the Northern US and Canada has a shared history with the Book of Mormon peoples and he has records and initiation rituals which prove it. Several rabbis (both local and in Israel) both attest to his claims. This is absolutely incredible if what he’s saying is true. Also blows a bit of the meso theory up.
Please, Kittycat! You will upset the intellectual gatekeepers who guard the Meso money cow.
Meso money cow? Now there's a joke. Not many supporters of the Meso american theory I know that have made much or any money off their support of that theory. Now Meldrum, et al., that's another story. Doesn't he run travel companies that run tours to his various sites, etc., plus a lot of other promotional come-ons via his magazine?

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kittycat51
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Re: The Navajos, the Papago, and what they know.

Post by kittycat51 »

larsenb wrote: May 30th, 2024, 1:57 pm
Dave62 wrote: May 26th, 2024, 8:28 pm
kittycat51 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 11:00 pm How about this? How many of you have seen this? This is a man named David Taylor, chief of the Ojibwe tribe of Indians who claims his tribe in the Northern US and Canada has a shared history with the Book of Mormon peoples and he has records and initiation rituals which prove it. Several rabbis (both local and in Israel) both attest to his claims. This is absolutely incredible if what he’s saying is true. Also blows a bit of the meso theory up.
Please, Kittycat! You will upset the intellectual gatekeepers who guard the Meso money cow.
Meso money cow? Now there's a joke. Not many supporters of the Meso american theory I know that have made much or any money off their support of that theory. Now Meldrum, et al., that's another story. Doesn't he run travel companies that run tours to his various sites, etc., plus a lot of other promotional come-ons via his magazine?
I've watched several videos with this chief. I don't know Larsen, but he does turn SOME things on its head.

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