No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

[spiritMan]

Evil men are evil because they first think evil thoughts.

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

Alma 41:4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—
5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

D&C 137:9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

D&C 121:45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

Sure but as The Duke says no scripture directly states thoughts can be sin...SMH... He does the same thing everyone who twists the scriptures do... If it doesn't say exactly what he wants it to say he throws it out, but doesn't keep that consistency across all discussions...

I'm not twisting anything. Thank you. I accept you cannot become santicified if you dwell on bad thoughts. IU say that god will test you to your thoughts, hence the verses quoted above about where you heart goes, so does you mind. I say there isn't a scripture that says you will be punished for your thoughts alone. And you call it twisting but admit there is no such scripture. So AT BEST you have my opinion vs. your opinion. But no cannon. However, I showed there are scriptures that say how we are judged and again it doesn't say your thoughts, anywhere.

Take it as you will. but you're becoming the judge as i see it. God it the judge. He never said he would judgeon our thoughts. Period! I do think he will test everyone to see that they act or don't act on their thoughts. If you don't then you've controlled them.

As I said there is nothing really about thoughts in general, some about heart. Heart seems more poignant than just thoughts.

But feel free to determine you can overcome all thoughts all the time in this world. Then show me one person , other than Jesus himself that did. Everyone had thoughts that were not of god, seldom were they condemned for them.

But feel free to interpret the few verses that are vauge and make them sins.

BTW there is more than sin in this world that isn't in alignment with god. There are infirmities and there are transgressions. Why did you specifically pick sin?

What do you think this verse means?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

[TheDuke]

Sure but as The Duke says no scripture directly states thoughts can be sin...SMH... He does the same thing everyone who twists the scriptures do... If it doesn't say exactly what he wants it to say he throws it out, but doesn't keep that consistency across all discussions...

I'm not twisting anything. Thank you. I accept you cannot become santicified if you dwell on bad thoughts. IU say that god will test you to your thoughts, hence the verses quoted above about where you heart goes, so does you mind. I say there isn't a scripture that says you will be punished for your thoughts alone. And you call it twisting but admit there is no such scripture. So AT BEST you have my opinion vs. your opinion. But no cannon. However, I showed there are scriptures that say how we are judged and again it doesn't say your thoughts, anywhere.

Take it as you will. but you're becoming the judge as i see it. God it the judge. He never said he would judgeon our thoughts. Period! I do think he will test everyone to see that they act or don't act on their thoughts. If you don't then you've controlled them.

As I said there is nothing really about thoughts in general, some about heart. Heart seems more poignant than just thoughts.

But feel free to determine you can overcome all thoughts all the time in this world. Then show me one person , other than Jesus himself that did. Everyone had thoughts that were not of god, seldom were they condemned for them.

But feel free to interpret the few verses that are vauge and make them sins.

BTW there is more than sin in this world that isn't in alignment with god. There are infirmities and there are transgressions. Why did you specifically pick sin?

What do you think this verse means?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

It is explained in multiple gospels. It is about the leaders talking the talk without walking the walk. Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly. It has NOTHING to do with this discussion or the OP BTW the discussion here has been about thinking or letting things get into your heart but not acting on the thoughts. That isn't hypocrisy, hypocrisy is the opposite. acting the part without believing it. Talk about antithessis of a discussion. What made you go here? I cannot follow the logic, sorry.

[spiritMan]

I'm not twisting anything. Thank you. I accept you cannot become santicified if you dwell on bad thoughts. IU say that god will test you to your thoughts, hence the verses quoted above about where you heart goes, so does you mind. I say there isn't a scripture that says you will be punished for your thoughts alone. And you call it twisting but admit there is no such scripture. So AT BEST you have my opinion vs. your opinion. But no cannon. However, I showed there are scriptures that say how we are judged and again it doesn't say your thoughts, anywhere.

Take it as you will. but you're becoming the judge as i see it. God it the judge. He never said he would judgeon our thoughts. Period! I do think he will test everyone to see that they act or don't act on their thoughts. If you don't then you've controlled them.

As I said there is nothing really about thoughts in general, some about heart. Heart seems more poignant than just thoughts.

But feel free to determine you can overcome all thoughts all the time in this world. Then show me one person , other than Jesus himself that did. Everyone had thoughts that were not of god, seldom were they condemned for them.

But feel free to interpret the few verses that are vauge and make them sins.

BTW there is more than sin in this world that isn't in alignment with god. There are infirmities and there are transgressions. Why did you specifically pick sin?

What do you think this verse means?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

It is explained in multiple gospels. It is about the leaders talking the talk without walking the walk. Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly. It has NOTHING to do with this discussion or the OP BTW the discussion here has been about thinking or letting things get into your heart but not acting on the thoughts. That isn't hypocrisy, hypocrisy is the opposite. acting the part without believing it. Talk about antithessis of a discussion. What made you go here? I cannot follow the logic, sorry.

Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly.

What does inwardly mean here?

[TheDuke]

What do you think this verse means?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

It is explained in multiple gospels. It is about the leaders talking the talk without walking the walk. Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly. It has NOTHING to do with this discussion or the OP BTW the discussion here has been about thinking or letting things get into your heart but not acting on the thoughts. That isn't hypocrisy, hypocrisy is the opposite. acting the part without believing it. Talk about antithessis of a discussion. What made you go here? I cannot follow the logic, sorry.

Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly.

What does inwardly mean here?

your the one that posted the verse, what do you think it means?

To me it means that you are pretending to be something knowing well that you are not. Such as praying to be heard. having a service only to collect the cash. Saying your are believer to keep your job when you arent.

[Jashon]

Of course the buffoonery found in this thread can be avoided by using a forum option.

[spiritMan]

It is explained in multiple gospels. It is about the leaders talking the talk without walking the walk. Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly. It has NOTHING to do with this discussion or the OP BTW the discussion here has been about thinking or letting things get into your heart but not acting on the thoughts. That isn't hypocrisy, hypocrisy is the opposite. acting the part without believing it. Talk about antithessis of a discussion. What made you go here? I cannot follow the logic, sorry.

Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly.

What does inwardly mean here?

your the one that posted the verse, what do you think it means?

To me it means that you are pretending to be something knowing well that you are not. Such as praying to be heard. having a service only to collect the cash. Saying your are believer to keep your job when you arent.

But according to you the only thing that matter is my actions. If I pray, what does it matter that my thoughts are (I'm just doing this because I have to), or my heart says ("I have to do this but I really don't want to).
What does it REALLY matter? According to you all that counts is my actions. So if I pray, who cares what my thoughts are ABOUT the prayer, or WHY I pray. I pray, that's the action.

Or "having a service to only collect cash". Are you a mind-reader? If I have a church service, the ACTION (which according to you is all that matters) is doing what God wants, who cares if I have some ulterior motive in MY THOUGHTS, or MY HEART.

It's the OUTWARD ACTION that counts according to the Gospel of TheDuke not my thoughts or heart regarding those actions.

So "pretending" is impossible. If my actions are good, then I AM good-regardless of the thoughts, intent, or desires of my heart. I mean according to you, I can't sin in my heart, nor can I sin in my thoughts, so as long as I do righteous ACTIONS, it doesn't matter one iota if my heart is black.

That's the Gospel according to TheDuke.

[Thinker]

Can't wait for the government to stop giving marriage licenses altogether and tell the people to just figure it out.

Imagine that - morality without a government stamp.

And children?
Government exist “because not all men are angels.”
I get so tired of people forgetting about children. If government were to stop being involved with marriage, children would suffer. Legal marriage is not because society/government cares about sex, but because there is valid concern for the future society - CHILDREN - all come from the union of a man & a woman. Sadly if not held up by legal responsibility - especially marriage -many more parents may leave it to the government to care for children.

[Thinker]

…I really don’t know what to think about same sex attraction. I believe homosexuality is wrong. I just don’t understand why people seem to be born that way, or develop that way when going through puberty. Is it just a trial in life that they have to go through? Like this person will get cancer, this person will lose a baby, this person will have same sex attraction? Or is it like Alex Jones talked about, “they’re turning the frogs gay”, and we have polluted our environment so much that we are now having way too much homosexuality and transgender stuff going on? Is it a combination of both?

Homosexuality is a sexual disorder.
To put it in perspective, imagine other, more nefarious sexual disorders like rape.

Is someone born to rape? Or do they learn it?

Also realize homosexual propaganda has been extensively influential to make people forget up from down, male from female etc.

Again,
There is no pedophile gene, and there’s no gene for other sexual disorders. There is also no rape gene or stealing things gene.

A “study” still in my child’s AP Psychology book, was an attempt to prove that those practicing homosexuality have different brains but the book doesn’t explain that it was discredited because the cadavers studied, who had different brains, died of AIDS which changed brains. It was the AIDS, not disordered sexual behavior that changed the brains.

But as explained on homosexual propoganda like “The Overhauling of Straight America” & “After the Ball”, after a lie is told with enough persuasion and many times, people with believe it even when proven wrong.

[JuneBug12000]

Can't wait for the government to stop giving marriage licenses altogether and tell the people to just figure it out.

Imagine that - morality without a government stamp.

And children?
Government exist “because not all men are angels.”
I get so tired of people forgetting about children. If government were to stop being involved with marriage, children would suffer. Legal marriage is not because society/government cares about sex, but because there is valid concern for the future society - CHILDREN - all come from the union of a man & a woman. Sadly if not held up by legal responsibility - especially marriage -many more parents may leave it to the government to care for children.

The gov stamp on marriage does nothing for children.

First, because in our society anybody can make a child with any other person without marriage.

Second, because even married people neglect children and let the gov take care of them.

Third, because of no fault divorce. No actual penalties for an irresponsible partner.

I could probably come up with more, but really gov approved marriage licenses are already voluntary, how does the paper help the child?

[Original_Intent]

Can't wait for the government to stop giving marriage licenses altogether and tell the people to just figure it out.

Imagine that - morality without a government stamp.

And children?
Government exist “because not all men are angels.”
I get so tired of people forgetting about children. If government were to stop being involved with marriage, children would suffer. Legal marriage is not because society/government cares about sex, but because there is valid concern for the future society - CHILDREN - all come from the union of a man & a woman. Sadly if not held up by legal responsibility - especially marriage -many more parents may leave it to the government to care for children.

I'd say government is more of a problem than a solution. Or, as been said many times before by men and women smarter than me, government creates the problem in order to provide a solution.

If government wasn't subsidizing single motherhood, society would demand that men be responsible for siring children, OR women would stop willingly being baby mamas.

Historically, men have gotten married for access to sex, and women have gotten married for financial security. Not saying that romance and love don't some into it, but you can have romance and love without marriage.

But, where society is now, women are willing to be sexually active without a commitment. They aren't seeking financial security from a man because society is telling them they don't need no man and can be financially successful on their own (technically true, but they don't give equal footing to what they are sacrificing in order to get that outcome.) Bottom line, if women want children they can go to government to pay for their upbringing (many times that support doesn't benefit the children.) if they don't want children they have access to birth control, and failing that abortion is easily available and again sold as a no regret option.

Men on the other hand have access to free sex if they are in the rare combination of having money and "the rizz", and if they are not in that rarified state, they are incels.

[TheDuke]

Trying to look righteous but not acting so inwardly.

What does inwardly mean here?

your the one that posted the verse, what do you think it means?

To me it means that you are pretending to be something knowing well that you are not. Such as praying to be heard. having a service only to collect the cash. Saying your are believer to keep your job when you arent.

But according to you the only thing that matter is my actions. If I pray, what does it matter that my thoughts are (I'm just doing this because I have to), or my heart says ("I have to do this but I really don't want to).
What does it REALLY matter? According to you all that counts is my actions. So if I pray, who cares what my thoughts are ABOUT the prayer, or WHY I pray. I pray, that's the action.

Or "having a service to only collect cash". Are you a mind-reader? If I have a church service, the ACTION (which according to you is all that matters) is doing what God wants, who cares if I have some ulterior motive in MY THOUGHTS, or MY HEART.

It's the OUTWARD ACTION that counts according to the Gospel of TheDuke not my thoughts or heart regarding those actions.

So "pretending" is impossible. If my actions are good, then I AM good-regardless of the thoughts, intent, or desires of my heart. I mean according to you, I can't sin in my heart, nor can I sin in my thoughts, so as long as I do righteous ACTIONS, it doesn't matter one iota if my heart is black.

That's the Gospel according to TheDuke.

I NEVER said that at all. That is that thoughts don't matter. you are WAY TWISTING what I said AGAIN. I guess it is hard to comprehend if your minde is made up and so you must reinterpret what I said. But, what I said their is no statement of punishment for thoughts. Period! You can say Jesus forgot to lay them out? And Spirit Man makes them up if you want' but I've asked to be shown. I have pointed out that judgement is only for actions and that thoughts are private between you and god (therefore could not be brought public w/o your consent for judgement).

But eventually thoughts (real thoughts i.e. in your heart as the verses say vs. passing thoughts you nix) will lead to actions. That is what the testing is all about. But if Satan keeps bombarding you with thoughts and you keep resisting, then you win. Even Jesus on his 40 fast was tempted of Satan. He obviously had these thoughts, and passed on them and won. but you cannot say the thoughts were not there as that would change the scripture and meaning too much. Just Jesus responded with "get behind me Satan" and overcame the thoughts. But the thoughts were there, never in his "heart".

[spiritMan]

your the one that posted the verse, what do you think it means?

To me it means that you are pretending to be something knowing well that you are not. Such as praying to be heard. having a service only to collect the cash. Saying your are believer to keep your job when you arent.

But according to you the only thing that matter is my actions. If I pray, what does it matter that my thoughts are (I'm just doing this because I have to), or my heart says ("I have to do this but I really don't want to).
What does it REALLY matter? According to you all that counts is my actions. So if I pray, who cares what my thoughts are ABOUT the prayer, or WHY I pray. I pray, that's the action.

Or "having a service to only collect cash". Are you a mind-reader? If I have a church service, the ACTION (which according to you is all that matters) is doing what God wants, who cares if I have some ulterior motive in MY THOUGHTS, or MY HEART.

It's the OUTWARD ACTION that counts according to the Gospel of TheDuke not my thoughts or heart regarding those actions.

So "pretending" is impossible. If my actions are good, then I AM good-regardless of the thoughts, intent, or desires of my heart. I mean according to you, I can't sin in my heart, nor can I sin in my thoughts, so as long as I do righteous ACTIONS, it doesn't matter one iota if my heart is black.

That's the Gospel according to TheDuke.

I NEVER said that at all. That is that thoughts don't matter. you are WAY TWISTING what I said AGAIN. I guess it is hard to comprehend if your minde is made up and so you must reinterpret what I said. But, what I said their is no statement of punishment for thoughts. Period! You can say Jesus forgot to lay them out? And Spirit Man makes them up if you want' but I've asked to be shown. I have pointed out that judgement is only for actions and that thoughts are private between you and god (therefore could not be brought public w/o your consent for judgement).

But eventually thoughts (real thoughts i.e. in your heart as the verses say vs. passing thoughts you nix) will lead to actions. That is what the testing is all about. But if Satan keeps bombarding you with thoughts and you keep resisting, then you win. Even Jesus on his 40 fast was tempted of Satan. He obviously had these thoughts, and passed on them and won. but you cannot say the thoughts were not there as that would change the scripture and meaning too much. Just Jesus responded with "get behind me Satan" and overcame the thoughts. But the thoughts were there, never in his "heart".

Either thinking evil thoughts is wrong (i.e. a sin) or it is not wrong (i.e. not a sin). To say otherwise, is to say that we have no control over our thoughts.

I am not talking about random thoughts that enter our brains.

I say "THINKING" evil thoughts. "THINKING" means more than just something that enters are brain and then leaves our brain.

Thinking: the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something.

Clearly, thinking evil thoughts is a sin. Obviously.

[TheDuke]

But according to you the only thing that matter is my actions. If I pray, what does it matter that my thoughts are (I'm just doing this because I have to), or my heart says ("I have to do this but I really don't want to).
What does it REALLY matter? According to you all that counts is my actions. So if I pray, who cares what my thoughts are ABOUT the prayer, or WHY I pray. I pray, that's the action.

Or "having a service to only collect cash". Are you a mind-reader? If I have a church service, the ACTION (which according to you is all that matters) is doing what God wants, who cares if I have some ulterior motive in MY THOUGHTS, or MY HEART.

It's the OUTWARD ACTION that counts according to the Gospel of TheDuke not my thoughts or heart regarding those actions.

So "pretending" is impossible. If my actions are good, then I AM good-regardless of the thoughts, intent, or desires of my heart. I mean according to you, I can't sin in my heart, nor can I sin in my thoughts, so as long as I do righteous ACTIONS, it doesn't matter one iota if my heart is black.

That's the Gospel according to TheDuke.

I NEVER said that at all. That is that thoughts don't matter. you are WAY TWISTING what I said AGAIN. I guess it is hard to comprehend if your minde is made up and so you must reinterpret what I said. But, what I said their is no statement of punishment for thoughts. Period! You can say Jesus forgot to lay them out? And Spirit Man makes them up if you want' but I've asked to be shown. I have pointed out that judgement is only for actions and that thoughts are private between you and god (therefore could not be brought public w/o your consent for judgement).

But eventually thoughts (real thoughts i.e. in your heart as the verses say vs. passing thoughts you nix) will lead to actions. That is what the testing is all about. But if Satan keeps bombarding you with thoughts and you keep resisting, then you win. Even Jesus on his 40 fast was tempted of Satan. He obviously had these thoughts, and passed on them and won. but you cannot say the thoughts were not there as that would change the scripture and meaning too much. Just Jesus responded with "get behind me Satan" and overcame the thoughts. But the thoughts were there, never in his "heart".

Either thinking evil thoughts is wrong (i.e. a sin) or it is not wrong (i.e. not a sin). To say otherwise, is to say that we have no control over our thoughts.

I am not talking about random thoughts that enter our brains.

I say "THINKING" evil thoughts. "THINKING" means more than just something that enters are brain and then leaves our brain.

Thinking: the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something.

Clearly, thinking evil thoughts is a sin. Obviously.

ok, show me, just show me where it is called a sin. Just one verse (canon, not apochrapha ro Nemeniah or anything. One clear plain verse in all the canon will do. I mean if it is a sin, there will be a punishment. What is it?

[Luke]

I NEVER said that at all. That is that thoughts don't matter. you are WAY TWISTING what I said AGAIN. I guess it is hard to comprehend if your minde is made up and so you must reinterpret what I said. But, what I said their is no statement of punishment for thoughts. Period! You can say Jesus forgot to lay them out? And Spirit Man makes them up if you want' but I've asked to be shown. I have pointed out that judgement is only for actions and that thoughts are private between you and god (therefore could not be brought public w/o your consent for judgement).

But eventually thoughts (real thoughts i.e. in your heart as the verses say vs. passing thoughts you nix) will lead to actions. That is what the testing is all about. But if Satan keeps bombarding you with thoughts and you keep resisting, then you win. Even Jesus on his 40 fast was tempted of Satan. He obviously had these thoughts, and passed on them and won. but you cannot say the thoughts were not there as that would change the scripture and meaning too much. Just Jesus responded with "get behind me Satan" and overcame the thoughts. But the thoughts were there, never in his "heart".

Either thinking evil thoughts is wrong (i.e. a sin) or it is not wrong (i.e. not a sin). To say otherwise, is to say that we have no control over our thoughts.

I am not talking about random thoughts that enter our brains.

I say "THINKING" evil thoughts. "THINKING" means more than just something that enters are brain and then leaves our brain.

Thinking: the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something.

Clearly, thinking evil thoughts is a sin. Obviously.

ok, show me, just show me where it is called a sin. Just one verse (canon, not apochrapha ro Nemeniah or anything. One clear plain verse in all the canon will do. I mean if it is a sin, there will be a punishment. What is it?

Alma 12
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

“Our thoughts will also condemn us”

[Reluctant Watchman]

Alma 12
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

“Our thoughts will also condemn us”

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

[TheDuke]

Either thinking evil thoughts is wrong (i.e. a sin) or it is not wrong (i.e. not a sin). To say otherwise, is to say that we have no control over our thoughts.

I am not talking about random thoughts that enter our brains.

I say "THINKING" evil thoughts. "THINKING" means more than just something that enters are brain and then leaves our brain.

Thinking: the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something.

Clearly, thinking evil thoughts is a sin. Obviously.

ok, show me, just show me where it is called a sin. Just one verse (canon, not apochrapha ro Nemeniah or anything. One clear plain verse in all the canon will do. I mean if it is a sin, there will be a punishment. What is it?

Alma 12
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

“Our thoughts will also condemn us”

good catch but why verse 12 says "works"?
12 And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

AND immediately following in verse 15

15 But this cannot be;......................

And then verse 17, which is obviously figurative, unless you belief in OT definition of hell

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.


Anyway I accept you found a verse as I asked.

I also see the entire story to be a bit figurative and as I said before not in line with all that is taught about thoughts, and the wishing the world will fall in on us, is well............ not my god as I understand him today. Seems like a hell, fire, and damnation speech to me. All the way through. This is OT god, not LDS god.

Actually, I take none of this chapter literallty as I cannot comprehend the idea of permanent hell and damnation or a lake of fire and brimstone, etc....

[Reluctant Watchman]

ok, show me, just show me where it is called a sin. Just one verse (canon, not apochrapha ro Nemeniah or anything. One clear plain verse in all the canon will do. I mean if it is a sin, there will be a punishment. What is it?

Alma 12
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

“Our thoughts will also condemn us”

good catch but why verse 12 says "works"?
12 And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

AND immediately following in verse 15

15 But this cannot be;......................

And then verse 17, which is obviously figurative, unless you belief in OT definition of hell

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.


Anyway I accept you found a verse as I asked.

I also see the entire story to be a bit figurative and as I said before not in line with all that is taught about thoughts, and the wishing the world will fall in on us, is well............ not my god as I understand him today. Seems like a hell, fire, and damnation speech to me. All the way through. This is OT god, not LDS god.

Actually, I take none of this chapter literallty as I cannot comprehend the idea of permanent hell and damnation or a lake of fire and brimstone, etc....

Duke, this was the third time that verse was quotes in this thread, FYI.

[TheDuke]

Alma 12
14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

“Our thoughts will also condemn us”

good catch but why verse 12 says "works"?
12 And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

AND immediately following in verse 15

15 But this cannot be;......................

And then verse 17, which is obviously figurative, unless you belief in OT definition of hell

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.


Anyway I accept you found a verse as I asked.

I also see the entire story to be a bit figurative and as I said before not in line with all that is taught about thoughts, and the wishing the world will fall in on us, is well............ not my god as I understand him today. Seems like a hell, fire, and damnation speech to me. All the way through. This is OT god, not LDS god.

Actually, I take none of this chapter literallty as I cannot comprehend the idea of permanent hell and damnation or a lake of fire and brimstone, etc....

Duke, this was the third time that verse was quotes in this thread, FYI.

so? I still disagree with your interpretation. It is figurative. And does not say the thoughts themselves are "sin" or punishable. It says we'll feel guilty and want to hide from the Lord.......... SO?

I asked specifically for showing it was a sin and there is punishment.

[Reluctant Watchman]

LOL

[TheDuke]

LOL

So, do you believe that those who don't accept Christ will live in a literal hell with actual fire, flames and are damned for ever? Do you think they will stand before god and wish mountains fell on them? Is this the god you believe in? Just curious, it seems many on FF do. Those focused on OT. I just don't. Joseph explained what the "hell" was and it wasn't what Amulek said. Also, he teaches that everyone will be happy with their reward. Do you not believe Joseph or do not believe Amulek or do you have a rashional way to resolve the inconsistency?

[John Tavner]

13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned.

14 For our words will condemn us, (see also Matt 12:37) yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us;(James 1:14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers Psalms 7:14 14Behold, the wicked man travails with evil; he conceives trouble and births falsehood and Matt 5:28) and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence. Thus our thoughts will condemn us because we can not say that we did not conceive of the sin before hand- it was there, it is where sin was conceived in the first place, it is where we let evil place its seed in us).

My commentary: Notice. we conceive then give birth, the thoughts are the conceiving, it is why they give birth, conceive means to have already had relations with in our heart- it is why if we look upon a woman to lust after them, - the purpose was to look at the woman with the intention to lust, then we have already conceived adultery in our heart. We are intentionally looking at them to Lust= adultery committed. If you are intentionally thinking about committing sin, because it is a desire, you are committing it in your heart, because you are conceiving it- you are already rejecting God and His ways which say we ought to have our eye single to Him. It is the equivalent of emotional/ spiritual adultery. Proverbs 4:23 Guard your heart with all diligence, for from it flow springs of life.

15 But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.

(The shame is everlasting because we never knew God to begin with we don't know His mercy, His grace, and His power to save to those who believe- otherwise there would be NO SHAME.)

16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness. Spiritual death = dying as to things pertaining unto righteousness)

17 Then is the time when their torments [b]shall be as a[/b] lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. ( It says "shall be as", meaning it is giving in this instance a metaphor, it is clearly delineating between what he is saying is literal and not)

Thoughts meaning dwelling on them, desiring those things, conceive sin, sin conceived gives birth to full spiritual death when fully grown, if not aborted. We are to be known by God, through Holy Spirit, the same way JEsus was conceived. In that sense, Holy Spirit conceives within us righteousness, but our eye is to be single to God, if what we are looking at causes us to stumble- we ought not look, (pluck our eye out) so our hearts are not conceiving death. IF what we are doing is causings us to stumble, then we ought cut off our hand, stop doing it and do unto the Lord as He willeth.

I should add that to repent means to "change your mind towards God/ TO turn towards GOd (depending on greek and hebrew respectively) Conceiving sin, means your mind has been off GOd, so regardless, one must repent in order to conceive righteousness. So regardless of whether or not one wants to call it sin or not, there is a need to repent for conceiving it in your heart, for that makes your mind/body/soul want it and repentance is the only answer.

[Thinker]

Can't wait for the government to stop giving marriage licenses altogether and tell the people to just figure it out.

Imagine that - morality without a government stamp.

And children?
Government exist “because not all men are angels.”
I get so tired of people forgetting about children. If government were to stop being involved with marriage, children would suffer. Legal marriage is not because society/government cares about sex, but because there is valid concern for the future society - CHILDREN - all come from the union of a man & a woman. Sadly if not held up by legal responsibility - especially marriage -many more parents may leave it to the government to care for children.

The gov stamp on marriage does nothing for children.

First, because in our society anybody can make a child with any other person without marriage.

Second, because even married people neglect children and let the gov take care of them.

Third, because of no fault divorce. No actual penalties for an irresponsible partner.

I could probably come up with more, but really gov approved marriage licenses are already voluntary, how does the paper help the child?

Just because people have children outside of wedlock, cases of abandonment & no-fault divorce - all has nothing to do with the basic legal reason for marriage. They don’t negate the function of marriage in family stability for other children.

When parents legally marry, it helps children by holding parents accountable more than without it. Few legal contracts favor children - but marriage between a man & a woman generally does.

[Thinker]

Can't wait for the government to stop giving marriage licenses altogether and tell the people to just figure it out.

Imagine that - morality without a government stamp.

And children?
Government exist “because not all men are angels.”
I get so tired of people forgetting about children. If government were to stop being involved with marriage, children would suffer. Legal marriage is not because society/government cares about sex, but because there is valid concern for the future society - CHILDREN - all come from the union of a man & a woman. Sadly if not held up by legal responsibility - especially marriage -many more parents may leave it to the government to care for children.

I'd say government is more of a problem than a solution. Or, as been said many times before by men and women smarter than me, government creates the problem in order to provide a solution.

If government wasn't subsidizing single motherhood, society would demand that men be responsible for siring children, OR women would stop willingly being baby mamas.

Historically, men have gotten married for access to sex, and women have gotten married for financial security. Not saying that romance and love don't some into it, but you can have romance and love without marriage.

But, where society is now, women are willing to be sexually active without a commitment. They aren't seeking financial security from a man because society is telling them they don't need no man and can be financially successful on their own (technically true, but they don't give equal footing to what they are sacrificing in order to get that outcome.) Bottom line, if women want children they can go to government to pay for their upbringing (many times that support doesn't benefit the children.) if they don't want children they have access to birth control, and failing that abortion is easily available and again sold as a no regret option.

Men on the other hand have access to free sex if they are in the rare combination of having money and "the rizz", and if they are not in that rarified state, they are incels.

I agree that government has too often taken the place of husbands & this is hurting families.

Still, I think it’s ridiculous to claim government should stop being part of protecting children by supporting marriage between a man & a woman. Even if it is relatively little good government does - overall people who legally marry statistically do better. And children whose parents are legally married do better.

Before the homosexual propaganda, nobody was saying government should get out of marriage. It seems those who say government should, are unknowingly going along with the homosexual agenda - to weaken society by weakening marriage. Plus they’re in lala land - everyone knows that without legality, marriage would be a joke. Couples would throw in the towel or disrespect promises even more than they already do with laws making it more difficult to.