Celtic legends about the Bible

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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The great antiquity of Christianity in these islands
I've pointed out earlier that the roots of Christianity here (and indeed France) are probably far older and deeper than commonly thought. In this post, I'll talk about just how old some of this is. One such convert by Biblical figures even appears to have gone on a mission to Switzerland.

St Augustine was at best the missionary to the southern English i.e. the Saxons and the Jutes. Missionaries had already been sent to Northumbria by the Gaels, and the Celtic speaking peoples of thwse islands already had their own churches. Christianity had to be reintroduced to the Norsemen who settled here. But the original faith was brought in before the Roman Empire ever fell.
In 1931, Pope Pius XI stated that Christianity was first introduced into England by St. Paul. His address to some visiting members of the Friends of Italy Society, among whom were the Mayors of Bath, Colchester and Dorchester, was reported in The Morning Post of 27th March 1931, and he put forward the view that it was St. Paul, and not St. Gregory or St. Augustine who introduced Christianity into Britain.
As I have pointed out above, Paul may not have been the first, or the only one, but I wasn't aware a recent Pope had admitted to an earlier introduction.

Eusebius in his De Demonstratione Evangelii., speaking of the dispersion of the Disciples to preach in the then known world, he said:
...some have crossed the ocean and reached the Isles of Britain, all this I for my part will not admit to be the work of mere men, far less of poor and ignorant men… the apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the British Isles.
"Poor and ignorant men" is an ungenerous statement since many such people have spread the gospel. Eusebius clearly means people who hadn't been trained up by the Vatican in its doctrines. There are very ancient churches in France, Italy, Greece and Spain, which predate Emperor Constantine but also some in these islands. In many cases the building is much newer but the dedication and site are ancient. These include:

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The 17th century rebuilding of St Peter's upon Cornhill
* St. Peter’s upon Cornhill, in the City of London. St Peter's is arguably older than the St Paul's Cathedral site, although some say it is a pagan Roman site. The financial capital of England and atguably much of the world (the Swiss and Americans would disagree). The City of London is in London, and believe it or not the two have separate mayors! The national capital is ironically in the City of Westminster next door which is also in London.😃 Wikipedia:
A tradition grew up that the church was founded by Lucius, the first Christian king in Britain sometime after his conversion in AD179. He dedicated it to St Peter the Apostle and the church became the seat of an archbishop until the coming of the Saxons in the 5th century, after which London was abandoned and Canterbury became the seat for the 6th-century Gregorian mission to the Kingdom of Kent. If St Peter's was built in the Roman era, it would make the church possibly contemporaneous to the Romano-British church at Silchester, similarly built adjacent to the Roman Basilica and most likely pre-Constantine in age.
Before the Great Fire of London in 1666, it was said to have had a plaque reading:
Be hit known to al men, that the yeerys of our Lord God an clxxix [AD 179]. Lucius the fyrst christen kyng of this lond, then callyd Brytayne, fowndyd the fyrst chyrch in London, that is to sey, the Chyrch of Sent Peter apon Cornhyl, and he fowndyd ther an Archbishoppys See, and made that Chirch the Metropolitant, and cheef Chirch of this kingdom.
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Roman-era bricks in the wall of St Martin's, Canterbury
* St. Martin’s Church at Canterbury. Canterbury is positioned as the capital of Anglicanism, but this comes from its later association with St. Augustine who usurped the Celtic Church. In fact the removal of the seat of the English church to Canterbury by the Roman Catholics and later Church of England is a slap in the face to the country's Christian origins. Even within Canterbury, the later Canterbury Cathedral has usurped St Martin's.

Bede said that St Martin's was a Roman building. It appears to be the oldest church building still in use, although some have claimed it was not founded as a church.

* Llandaff — this is in a leafy suburb of Cardiff, the capital of Wales and its largest city. It is said to have been founded by Lucius, centuries before the claimed Christianisation on Wikipedia. Its name means the church (or clearing) on the River Taff. The Taff is the main river in Cardiff coming off the Bristol Channel and Llandaff was said to be the firsr piece of solid ground if you sailed inland. A lot of land to the south has been reclaimed and has been inundated by a tidal wave at least once in recorded history.

Like the City of London within London, Llandaff claims to be a city in a city.
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In the ninth century in Lisieux, Normandy, a French bishop, Frecuiphus, said that St. Philip went to France, and from there he sent twelve men to preach in Britain, of whom St. Joseph of Arimathea was the leader. St. Joseph was St. Philip’s “dearest friend”, according to Frecuiphus.

The writer Tertullian was born around AD 60 in Carthage, and he stated that the land had received the religion of Christ, even the inaccessible regions.

In turn the region sent missionaries to the continent, even the interior. At Unterseen, on Lake Thun, Switzerland, there is a cave used by such as missionary called Beatus. Beatus is said to have died in 96 AD before the First Century was finished. Even cautious estimates put his death no later than 112.
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Beatus cave, Switzerland
Beatus of Lungern, known also by the honorific Apostle of Switzerland or as Beatus of Beatenberg or Beatus of Thun... While legend claims that he was the son of a Scottish king, other legends place his birth in Ireland. Beatus was a convert, baptized in England by Saint Barnabas. He was allegedly ordained a priest in Rome by Saint Peter the Apostle, whereupon he was sent with a companion named Achates to evangelize the tribe of the Helvetii. The two set up a camp in Argovia [Aargau] near the Jura Mountains, where they converted many of the locals
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Aargau/Argovia
Beatus then ventured south to the mountains above Lake Thun, taking up a hermitage in what is now known as St. Beatus Caves, near the village of Beatenberg, probably in the ninth century. Tradition states that this cave is where he fought a dragon. Saint Beatus' grave is located between the monastery and the cave entrance.
The Helvetii were a Celtic tribe and would have spoken a similar language to the ancient Britons. There seems to have been some confusion as to whether Beatus was a Gaelic speaker or a Brython. If he was a Gael, it suggests that the Irish may have started receiving Christianity far earlier than Patrick. Beatus certainly looks like certain Gaelic names and is probably related to the name MacBeth. It means either "life" or "birch tree".

I wonder if the story of him going to Rome to be ordained is a Vatican interpolation. As I mentioned above with Eusebius, the Roman Catholic hierarchy didn't like anything it didn't sanction. Either way, Beatus seems to have had a link directly back to the New Testament.
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Thunersee region, where Beatus lived

England and Scotland would not have existed in Beatus' lifetime. The account contains another detail, that St. Barnabas/Barnaby visited Britain as well. If all of this is true, then the place was heaving with New Testament figures. Barnabas is mentioned a number of times in the Book of Acts and the Epistles.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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I made a duplicate post, so will include some more info in here.
France
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Tréguier, Brittany

Some more locarions connected to Joseph of Arimathea in France and Brittany:
* Limoges
* Arles – this is an alternative landing place.
* Tréguier – the first bishop Drennalus was said to have been converted by Joseph of Arimathea.
* Avignon – Avignon's first bishop Parmenna was also also supposedly personally converted by Joseph of Arimathea. Avignon was later famous for hosting an alternative papacy.
Various existing records agree in part with the Cardinal Baronius record, naming among the occupants of the castaway boat Mary Magdlene, Martha, the hand-maiden Marcella, Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead, and Maximin the man whose sight Jesus restored. Other records state that Philip and James accompanied Joseph. Others report that Mary, the wife of Cleopas, and Mary, the
mother of Jesus, were also in the boat. Here's Baronius' complete list of passsengers:
St. Mary, wife of Cleopas
St. Martha
St. Lazarus
St. Eutropius
St. Salome
St. Cleon
St. Saturninus
St. Mary Magdalene
Marcella, the Bethany sisters' maid
St. Maximin
St. Martial
St. Trophimus
St. Sidonius (Restitutus)
St. Joseph of Arimathea
Origin of the Grail Legend
Many of us are familiar with the Holy Grail legend and Arthurian cycle but not how the grail is said to have reached these shores:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history ... ea-0017032
This legend stems from French poet Robert de Boron’s verse romance called Joseph d’Arimathie (1200). In this poem, Joseph is entrusted with the Holy Grail, and imprisoned in Jerusalem by the Jewish elders after they realize he had removed Jesus’ body from the cross. However, upon his release, rather than returning to Arimathea, Joseph gathers a company of followers who take the Grail to Britain.
Other, later poems also make similar claims. In the subsequent romance Perlesvaus (an Old French Arthurian romance, 13th century), it is said that Joseph travels to Britain with relics. This vast Arthurian composition took much inspiration from de Boron, but in this telling, it is not just Joseph who is considered the primary holy man of Britain, but his son Josephus as well.
Last edited by Niemand on October 28th, 2023, 4:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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William Camden in 1674 wrote
“The true Christian Religion was planted here most anciently by Joseph of Arimathea, Simon Zelotes, Aristobulous, by St. Peter and St. Paul, as may be proved by Dorotheus, Theodoretus and Sophronius.”
Aristobolus (Arwystli Hen)

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St. Dorotheus of Gaza. Bishop of Tyre , A.D. 303 AD said:
Aristobulus, whom Paul saluted, writing to the Romans (Romans 16,:10) was Bishop of Britain. (Synopsis de Apostol. Synops 23 “Aristobulus”).
In Welsh he is known as Arwystli Hen (Aristobulus the Elder). Wikipedia says:
Orthodox tradition says Aristobulus was the brother of the Apostle Barnabas, of Jewish Cypriot origin. Like Barnabas, he accompanied Saint Paul on his journeys. He was one of the assistants of Saint Andrew, along with Urban of Macedonia, Stachys, Ampliatus, Apelles of Heraklion and Narcissus of Athens (all of these names are mentioned together by St. Paul in Romans 16:8–11, which cannot be casual). On his missionary journey to Britain, he stopped to preach to the Celtiberians of northern Hispania. Catholic tradition identifies Aristobulus with Zebedee, father of James and John.

We see here again the names of Barnabas and Paul who I've mentioned above a few times. The Celtic groups in northern Spain would have spoken languages related to those in modern France and these islands (and indeed Switzerland). Wikipedia again:
Aristobulus preached and died in Roman Britain. While some orthodox traditions say he "died in peace", others say he was martyred in Wales. Catholic tradition says he was martyred. The Benedictine monk Serenus de Cressy (1605–1674) maintained that Aristobulus was ordained by St. Paul and died at Glastonbury Abbey in 99; but Michael Alford (author of Fides Regia Britannica Sive Annales Ecclesiae Britannicae) says that Aristobulus was the husband of "Mary" Salome, which makes this date appear too late. Alford gives his death as "the second year of Nero" – 56. Alford also asserts that "It is perfectly certain that, before St Paul had come to Rome, Aristobulus was away in Britain". This is in accord with the date given by Gildas (c. 500–570 AD) that the "Light of Christ" shone in Britain in the last year of Emperor Tiberius. However, George Smith points out that this a misinterpretation of Gildas, and asserts that the Gospel was not preached in Britain before the reign of Claudius, whose full name was Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.

Simon Zealotes
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St. Dorotheus also says:
Simon Zelotes preached Christ through all Mauretania, and Africa the less. At length he was crucified at Britannia, slain and buried. (Synopsis de Apostol. Synops 9. “Simon Zelotes.”)
Note there is considerable dispute as to where Simon Zealotes died. This is just one of many. He is said to have died around 60 AD, at a place called Caistor in Lincolnshire, England.

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https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/c ... ul-caistor

Wikipedia:
According to a local tradition, one of Jesus's 12 apostles, Simon the Zealot, came to England, where he is supposed to have been martyred somewhere in the vicinity of Caistor. He was reputedly crucified on the orders of a Roman procurator called Catus Decianus on 10 May AD 61.
Much later, the Protestant John Foxe's Book of Martyrs (1563) mentions the tradition of Simon Zealotes visiting Britain and said he made many converts there. This was obviously well known to him.

James, son of Alphaeus
The two James are frequently confused.
“The Spanish writers generally contend . . . after the death of Stephen he [James] came to these western parts. and particularly into Spain (some add Britain and lreland) where he planted Christianity” (Antiquitates Apostolicae. p. 148).
Anna
I have also come across a tradition that Anna or Hannah, mother of Mary, was born in Cornwall. This doesn't seem to be widespread or well known and I' not sure I'm convinced by it. If only one of these traditions was true it would be amazing, but all of them?
Last edited by Niemand on October 28th, 2023, 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TheChristian
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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Within a few years of our Lords ascent to Heaven, it is said in ancient Christian writings that the Gospel was preached by Jewish Christians and established in Britain, its also said that it was also in the north of Scotland were the Roman empire had no dominion.
Perchance it was those first Celtic christians that took the Gospel to the Americas.
We find the Aztec traditions state that a white bearded man arrived off the eastern shores of mexico in a ship in the mists of time, that he left the ship and began preaching a message of love, mercy, forgiveness and peace, going from city to city, town to town, village to village, wending his way north, as he did so performing many signs, wonders and miracles.
Then after a season he returned southwards back to his ship, many of his indian converts stood apon the shore to see him off, the white bearded preacher said farewell and promised to return. He then boarded his ship and left.
He also warned their indian converts that a false form of christianity would come to their shores, in the form of men in long black robes with hoods, that they were not to listen to them.
Could this be that the White bearded men were the Celtic christians of ancient Ireland or Northern Britian warning their indian converts that sometime their foes the Romish monks, whom dressed in long black hooded robes would arrive apon their shores and they were not to listen to them.
The Indians said that these white bearded men were lighter skinned than the spaniards, so it makes sense that said white bearded men came from countries further north than spain.
Such was the impact of these White bearded Preachers, that the traditions and prophecies of said men were handed down thru the generations of the ancient indian peoples, the indians Kings were also the high priests of mexico, so said traditions and prophecies were passed from Father to son in the kingly lines of said Mexico.
Hence when the spanish arrived apon their shores many centuries later, they thought at first that these were the white bearded emissionaries of their ancient traditions. Hence gave the Spaniards an easy task of swiftly taking rule of Mexico.
Could it also be that when the Celtic christian light which was swiftly subdued and their churchs extinguished in Ireland and Northern Britain by the Romish church what little contact they had with ancient Mexico was ended.
Said Mexican Indian converts would of been left to themselves to dwindle in number and belief, leaving only a handfull of traditions and prophecies of a time when the white bearded men from far across the eastern sea had been amongst them with a message of love, mercy and peace,, then departed from them, with a promise to return.
As both you and I know my friend Niemand there are many other ancient traditions both in the americas and in our lands concerning similiar matters.
After all, the royal command of our lord to his early disciples was to take the Gospel to the uttermost ends of the earth, this would naturally include taking the Gospel to the Americas, if the Gospel had spread to ancient Britain and Ireland in a matter of a few years of our Lords ascent to heaven, no doubt it could of been taken swiftly across the atlantic to the Americas also by those ancient Celtic christians burning with zeal to fullfill the royal command of taking the gospel to the very ends of the earth.

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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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TheChristian wrote: October 27th, 2023, 4:48 pm Within a few years of our Lords ascent to Heaven, it is said in ancient Christian writings that the Gospel was preached by Jewish Christians and established in Britain, its also said that it was also in the north of Scotland were the Roman empire had no dominion.
Perchance it was those first Celtic christians that took the Gospel to the Americas.
Aye I mention the island hopping at the top. There is evidence of oceanic travel to the Faroes and Iceland by Celtic churchmen. Some say they got to Greenland and North America. In the south you have the Canaries which have connections to Brendan the Navigator, and possible evidence in the Azores and Madeira. Then later there is the notion that the Knights Templar were travelling to the Americas pre-Columbus.

Whithorn in Galloway has very early connections with St. Ninian who had mysterious origins. I've just been reading of a cross there that some say suggests Peter had visited there and when Paul visited Rome, Peter had not yet preached there. (Contrary to Vatican history)

If someone wanted to escape the Roman Empire, I wonder where they could go. Ireland is one obvious answer. Possibly the Isle of Man (which shows little evidence of Roman influence).

But my hunch would be Orkney. Orkney had a fairly wealthy and developed society back then (which later degenerated thanks partly to the Viking Invasion that most Orcadians celebrate). More so than some parts of the mainland. Some people say this was to do with trade in walrus ivory, but as likely to do with sealskins and the Scandinavian amber trade. There is evidence it was trading with Rome and even attacked by Roman pirates but it never came under their control. The brochs are said to have been built to defend against Roman raiders.

If you want a leftfield suggestion — try Wales. Areas like Cardiff, Caerleon and round Chester were heavily Romanised, but some of north and west Wales was not well controlled by them. They were intermittently out of their control and bandit country. Wales was the Wild West of Roman Britannia.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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More on Anne/Anna
This thread has gone through various legends, some more plausible than others. This I find less likely, but I include it anyway.

There is a Cornwall (Kernow) to the south west of England and a Cornouailles (Kernev) in Brittany. I mentioned briefly the legend of Anna (Hannah) the mother of Mary being Cornish. There is also a tradition of her being Breton. Anne is a popular saint across this region.

Bretons are devoutly Roman Catholic traditionally.
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While it is obvious that the Bretons themselves locate the scene of the legend in their own country, it is at least possible that it was transplanted from Cornwall, with many of their place names, at the time of the great migration. [Many people left Cornwall, Devon and Somerset for Brittany during the Anglo-Saxon/English invasions of the post Roman period] The district with which the legend is connected is called “Cornuaille.”
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Chapel Santez Anna ar Palud, Chapel of St Anne of Palude

The version which I append is my own translation of an extract from Anatole leBraz’ “Sainte Anne de la Palude” in “Un Pays des Pardons.”
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The writer tells how he was struck by the likeness of a poor peasant woman to the figure of St Anne, before which she had been praying.
“Do you know,” I said, “that St Anne and you look like sisters?”

“I am, like her, a grandmother,” she replied, “and, like me, thank God, she is a Breton.”

“St Anne a Breton? Are you quite sure about that, my worthy woman?”


She turned her dreamy eyes on me, and answered in a pitying tone:
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“How easy to see that you are from the town! The townsfolk are ignorant; they despise us country folk, because we cannot read their books. But they! What would they know of their land, if we were not there to tell them? Oh yes, St Anne was a Breton. Go to the Chateau de Moëllien [pictured] and they will show you the room she inhabited, in the days when she was Queen of that country. For a Queen she was; nay, she was even “Duchesse,” a far more beautiful title. They blessed her in the streets, because of her goodness and her boundless pity for the humble and unhappy. Her husband, in turn, passed for a very hard man. He was jealous of his wife, and did not want her to bear children. When he discovered that she was with child, he flew into a violent passion, and drove her out like a beggar, in the middle of the night, in the depth of winter, half naked, into the icy storm.

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"A piteous wanderer, she walked blindly on. In the bay of Trefentec, [Tréfeuntec, pictured] under this dune, a barque of light rode placidly, though the sea was rough, and at the stern stood an angel in white, his wings spread out like sails. ‘Embark,’ said the angel, ‘that we may take care of you; for the time is short.’ ‘Whither would you take me?’ she asked, and he replied, ‘The wind will direct us; the will of God is in the wind.’

“They passed along the coast of Judaea, and landed in the port of Jerusalem. Some days later Anne gave birth to a daughter, destined by God to be the Virgin. She brought her up piously, taught her letters in a book of Psalms, and made her wise in body and spirit; meet to become the mother of Jesus. Her task ended, as she felt herself growing old, she prayed Heaven, saying, ‘ I am pining for my Bretons. If only, ere I die, I may see again my parish, and the beach, so sweet to my eyes, of ‘la Palude in Plounevez Porzay!’ Her prayer was answered. The barque of light returned to take her, with the same angel at the helm, only now he was robed in black, to show the saint of her widowhood, for the Seigneur de Moëllien had died meanwhile. The castle folk, gathered on the shore, received their chatelaine with transports of joy, but she immediately hushed them. ‘Go,’ she commanded, ‘and distribute all my goods among the poor.’ She was resolved to end her earthly days in penitence. Henceforth she lived here, under this barren dune, in one perpetual orison. The light of her eyes radiated far over the waters like a moonbeam. On stormy nights she was the saviour of the fishers. With one gesture she calmed the sea, and drove the clouds back to bed, like a flock of sheep to the fold.

“Jesus, her grandson, undertook for her sake the voyage to Basse Bretagne.[Lower Brittany/Breizh Isel] Before he was to climb Calvary, he went to ask her blessing, accompanied by the disciples Peter and John. Their parting was a bitter one. Anne wept tears of blood, and Jesus tried in vain to console her. At last he said to her, ‘Think, grandmère, of your Bretons. Speak, and in thy name I will grant them whatever they ask.’

“The saint checked her tears. ‘Ah! then,’ she cried, ‘May a Church be dedicated here to me, and as far as its steeple shall be seen, as far as its bells shall be heard, may all sickness be healed, and every soul, living or dead, find peace!’ … “There, my gentleman is the true history of Anne of la Palude, in Plounevez Porzay. There it is, just as I had it from my mother, who had it from hers, at a time when families transmitted piously, from memory to memory, the things of the past.”

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I wonder here if there is some confusion with Anne of Brittany, and this would explain the connection to the much later Château de Moëllien and being called a Duchesse. Unless there is an older structure underlying it. Anne of Brittany was responsible for France annexing Brittany... since then the Celtic culture of Brittany has been in gradual decline and it has never regained its independence. (It currently has less autonomy than Cornwall does.)

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Anne of Brittany (Breton: Anna; 25/26 January 1477 – 9 January 1514) was reigning Duchess of Brittany from 1488 until her death, and Queen of France from 1491 to 1498 and from 1499 to her death. She was the only woman to have been queen consort of France twice

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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I mention Rosslyn/Roslin chapel briefly above. (Both spellings are in current use even locally.)

viewtopic.php?t=50986
kirtland r.m. wrote: March 12th, 2019, 9:23 pm Interesting information from an enlightening source.
[Rest of quote in italics.]
"Some believe that the Templar treasure was taken to Scotland for safe keeping and passed into the care of the St Clair family of Rosslyn. When the Templars were destroyed in 1307 a sizeable remnant fled to Scotland and became firmly established at Rosslyn, where the St Clair's became hereditary Grand Masters. In 1446 William St Clair almost lost the scrolls in a fire at the castle and so he decided to build a permanent home for them and built a copy of Herod's Temple which is now known as Rosslyn Chapel. The ground plan of the chapel is an exact copy of the ground plan of Herod's Temple, which was not known to archaeologists until the Wilson expedition of 1890. Above ground the building is a copy of the Heavenly Jerusalem shown in Lambert's copy of one of the scrolls. Sir William founded Freemasonry to preserve the secrets of the hiding of these scrolls and to carry the clues for their eventual recovery. He hid these clues within the verbal ritual he developed for Freemasonry from the rituals the Templars had learned from the Jewish temple scrolls and the writings of Jesus and James.

We have every reason to believe that the scrolls are still buried where Sir William put them and many continue to support an archaeological excavation to recover them . In tracing the history of the scrolls it has been deduced by some of the possible contents from the effects they have had on the development of society."http://ldstempleendowment.blogspot.com/

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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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Image
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Chalice Well cover

Chalice Well, Glastonbury
I've posted quite a bit about Glastonbury above, but haven't mentioned the Chalice Well yet. I've visited Glastonbury several times, but I can't remember if I ever went here. (I was very young at the time.)

The "chalice" in the name is usually associated with the Holy Grail. The site has pre-Christian origins and has also seen substantial neo-pagan/occult activity in recent time. As you can see above, the well cover has some questionable symbolism on it – the vesica piscis, looking like a Venn diagram. This pattern, depending on one's POV is either a representation of the fish, or of the female organ. (The cup is seen as a feminine symbol in some quarters. The oval intersection is also used as the symbol of many church denominations.) With some imagination one can link it to the Christian cross or the Buddhist mandala. I discuss the symbolism below.

The water from the spring is a red colour which some have compared to blood. At other times according to William of Malmesbury it is said to have flowed blue or colourless. When Joseph of Arimathea was said to have placed the Grail in the water it went bloodred. However, I have seen many springs in these islands with a similar rusty colour. In that sense it is unremarkable, but it makes for a good companion to the legend.
The subterranean water from the well is often warmer than the surface ground temperature, and even in winter roses near the well bloom when other plants and flowers further away do not. Indeed, the Holy Thorn Tree, also known as the Glastonbury Thorn (Crataegus Monogyna praecox) blooms in the Chalice Well garden every Christmas. The local legend says that this tree took root when Joseph of Arimathea drove his staff into the ground near the well.
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Another part of the chalice well. The lion is a symbol of Christ but is not uncommon in waterspouts.

The Gospel of Kailedy (a fake IMO) mentions this well in Chapter 15:
Then, when Pontius Pilate returned to Rome, Joseph departed from his home shores, coming to Setnadoin, from whence he moved to a well at the foot of a hill. He brought with him a clay cup which had been set in silver by a silversmith, and this was that cup used by Jesus.
The hill mentioned is meant to be Glastonbury Tor, which is pictured at several points in this thread and which is apparently on the Michael Line.

Frederick Bligh Bond
The cover was designed by the architect and occultist Frederick Bligh Bond
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Bligh_Bond
Bligh joined the Freemasons in 1889, the Theosophical Society in 1895, the Society for Psychical Research in 1902, the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia in 1909 and the Ghost Club in 1925... During his time in the USA Bond was ordained, and in 1933 consecrated as a bishop, in the Old Catholic Church of America... Bligh Bond's claims that he received archaeological information through automatic writing from deceased monks.
Bond was fascinated by gematria and kabbalah. He was the cousin of Sabine Baring-Gould, who had similar interests and who wrote the well known hymn Onward Christian Soldiers.
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Another part of the spring showing the division into seven pools
In the well lid design, a spear or a sword bisects these two circles, a possible reference to Excalibur, the sword of the legendary King Arthur, believed by some to be buried at the nearby Glastonbury Abbey. Foliage represents the Glastonbury Thorn. Bligh Bond wrote that the vesica design for the well cover was "typical of many early diagrams, all having the same object – the rendering of spiritual truth by means of the purest, most intellectual system of imagery conceived by the mind, namely, truth which is ‘aeonial’ or eternal, of which geometry is the best interpreter, since it can figure for us with remarkable suggestiveness those formative principles upon which the Father has built his Creation, principles which shall endure when heaven and earth have died."

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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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Wives on board the Ark
Wikipedia says:
Irish folklore is rich in traditions and legends regarding the three sons and their wives. Here the wives are usually named Olla, Olliva, and Ollivani (or variations thereof), names possibly derived from the Anglo-Saxon Codex Junius (c. 700 AD), a Bible paraphrase written in the fashion of Germanic sagas, and often attributed to the poet Cædmon.
These names echo Islamic tradition. There are several names given to Noah's wife among Muslims, but one of them is Wāhila, clearly similar to the Olla, Olliva, and Ollivani names mentioned above.
Some versions of the Gaelic Lebor Gabala [Book of Settlements — see above] also name Shem's, Ham's, and Japheth's wives as Cata Rechta, Cata Flauia, and Cata Chasta respectively.
Latest Apocrypha etc
Joseph and Asenath: a sweet tale of conversion
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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

This video is a bit amateurish but someone may glean something from it. The Ordnance Survey is the UK state mapping service. They create some.of the best maps out there. She claims old churches are now being left off the maps. I haven't heard that before.

Note there are also a couple of gaps in the video. Don't be deterred by them. 28 mins approx.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

corbenic2-4244460063.jpg
corbenic2-4244460063.jpg (13.13 KiB) Viewed 181 times
Corbenic and Galahad
Corbenic is the castle in which the Grail is kept or found in Arthurian legend. In some versions it is in our world and in others partly in the Otherworld or in Mormon terminology "through the veil ". It can only seen by the righteous or those who have been granted permission to see it. In some versions it is a grand castle and in others a plain one. Boorman's film Excalbur gets some things wrong, but it does recognise this aspect. Corbenic can be seen as a metaphor for salvation and the Mass – since only those who humble themselves and try and escape from sin are able to experience it properly, while others will catch glimpses of it. Some say the castle can transport itself to different locations.

I see there are various proposed etymologies of the name but the most obvious thing to me is that the first element is probably Caer- (Welsh) or Ker- (Breton) which means a fort. This is very common in Welsh placenames and comes from the Latin castra meaning "fort" – examples of this element can be found in Carlisle, Cardiff, Carnarvon and so on. I suspect it probably means "holy castle" in Welsh or a related language. Some also say it is from French for "sacred horn" (corn) or "sacred body" (corps).

In some versions, the Fisher King lives here, a character with so many interpretations that one could probably start an entire thread on him.

The castle is the birthplace of Sir Galahad. Again – because there are so many versions of the Arthurian cycle – in some stories Galahad is a grandson of Pelles through his mother. Pelles is related to Bron who is said to be Joseph of Arimathea's brother in law, which explains how the family ended up with the grail to begin with. Galahad turns up at Camelot at Pentecost (probably significant), and unlike the other knights demonstrates gifts of the spirit including casting out demons and healing the sick. In other versions, Perceval/Parsifal is that knight.

Sarras
Sarras is a legendary island or city on which the Holy Grail was kept while it was being transported away from the Middle East. Again, there are different accounts of where this may have been. Some place it in between Jerusalem and the Euphrates. Another place which has been identified with it is Sark in the Channel Islands. Another identification has been made with the Isle of Man in the Irish Sea – see here:
https://nightbringer.se/the-legend-of-k ... ns/sarras/

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

Zoar
Zoar was the city that Lot fled to after escaping Sodom. See here:
viewtopic.php?t=74795

While the other cities in the area – Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim and Admah – were destroyed, Zoar was spared destruction. Its exact location is unclear.

It is also the name of a place in Cornwall in Kerrier parish on the Lizard peninsula. It appears to be a 19th century name and may come from a chapel. However, it does look very Cornish in its way (Cornish likes the letter "Z") so i'm sure someone will claim it's older. Zoar means "little" in Hebrew and its Cornish namesake is barely a hamlet. Cornwall as we have seen has an extremely high concentration of Biblical legends. Note also the slight resemblance to the name Sarras mentioned in the last message.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

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Michael Sherwin has posted elsewhere on the idea of "England" (by which he means the neighbouring countries too) being the setting of the Book of Mormon. I don't agree with him and the topic is outside the remit of this thread. However, Robin Hood and others made some comments on that thread which tie into this one:
viewtopic.php?t=52973

Dave62 — Arthur as a bishop?
Dave62 wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 5:40 am In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

I suspect the apostacy happened later in the peripheries of the Roman Empire later then we might think. Consider the Pelagian heresy and it similarities to Mormon's epistles.
RH replies
Robin Hood wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 9:51 am I concur with much of your [Dave62's] post.
I have long held the view that the apostasy wasn't complete until 570AD. However, it will have occured in much of the known world quite a bit earlier. When the Roman Church missionaries came to England they encountered Britons who were already Christians and members of what we call today the Celtic Church. This church had nothing to do with Rome or the Pope.

Nibley notes that the apostles left instructions for the perpetuation of the office of bishop and you're right, a church ministered to and by Aaronic authority is very likely once the higher priesthood was lost. It is also likely that this situation could have persisted for some considerable time.
When we look at the structures of the Roman Catholic church, as well as Anglicans and Orthodox, we see the Aaronic pattern of bishop, priest and deacon to this very day.
Willow talks about her experience. As I have said above I think Arthurian legend is a fusion of Celtic myths with Christian material, along with various reinterpretations of Christian symbols .
Willow wrote: July 30th, 2021, 8:48 am You may all think this is funny, but when my youngest son and I read “The tales of King Arthur “ a few years ago, we found it to be an unexpected spiritual experience.

My son was 10 and was getting the priesthood in a few weeks at the time. At times the Spirit was so strong while we read this book that my son would comment on it and even asked why it carried a similar feeling of the scriptures.

The spiritual connections and the understandings that we had as we studied this book were innumerable. We were doing the study for our homeschool using Memoria Press. Sir Gawain and Sir Percival became my son’s favorite. He even named his new puppy Sir Percy .

I look on this time as a very sacred experience and am so glad for this thread. I am not certain what I think on it all at this time, but I cannot deny what happened to us either. The Spirit always testifies of truth and it was so sweet while we were studying this book.

Dave62
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Dave62 »

Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2024, 5:52 am Michael Sherwin has posted elsewhere on the idea of "England" (by which he means the neighbouring countries too) being the setting of the Book of Mormon. I don't agree with him and the topic is outside the remit of this thread. However, Robin Hood and others made some comments on that thread which tie into this one:
viewtopic.php?t=52973

Dave62 — Arthur as a bishop?
Dave62 wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 5:40 am In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

I suspect the apostacy happened later in the peripheries of the Roman Empire later then we might think. Consider the Pelagian heresy and it similarities to Mormon's epistles.
RH replies
Robin Hood wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 9:51 am I concur with much of your [Dave62's] post.
I have long held the view that the apostasy wasn't complete until 570AD. However, it will have occured in much of the known world quite a bit earlier. When the Roman Church missionaries came to England they encountered Britons who were already Christians and members of what we call today the Celtic Church. This church had nothing to do with Rome or the Pope.

Nibley notes that the apostles left instructions for the perpetuation of the office of bishop and you're right, a church ministered to and by Aaronic authority is very likely once the higher priesthood was lost. It is also likely that this situation could have persisted for some considerable time.
When we look at the structures of the Roman Catholic church, as well as Anglicans and Orthodox, we see the Aaronic pattern of bishop, priest and deacon to this very day.
Willow talks about her experience. As I have said above I think Arthurian legend is a fusion of Celtic myths with Christian material, along with various reinterpretations of Christian symbols .
Willow wrote: July 30th, 2021, 8:48 am You may all think this is funny, but when my youngest son and I read “The tales of King Arthur “ a few years ago, we found it to be an unexpected spiritual experience.

My son was 10 and was getting the priesthood in a few weeks at the time. At times the Spirit was so strong while we read this book that my son would comment on it and even asked why it carried a similar feeling of the scriptures.

The spiritual connections and the understandings that we had as we studied this book were innumerable. We were doing the study for our homeschool using Memoria Press. Sir Gawain and Sir Percival became my son’s favorite. He even named his new puppy Sir Percy .

I look on this time as a very sacred experience and am so glad for this thread. I am not certain what I think on it all at this time, but I cannot deny what happened to us either. The Spirit always testifies of truth and it was so sweet while we were studying this book.
That's very interesting, thank you. As for the BoM occurring in England or the British Isles, I may be a bit of an anglophile with mild British-Israelite 'leanings' but Moroni speaking like a Scouse from Liverpool is just a tad too far for me.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

Dave62 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:04 am That's very interesting, thank you. As for the BoM occurring in England or the British Isles, I may be a bit of an anglophile with mild British-Israelite 'leanings' but Moroni speaking like a Scouse from Liverpool is just a tad too far for me.
I think there are some genuine mysteries about these islands' early history. I don't think the Book of Mormon took place in these parts myself. I should probably talk about the Book of Jeraneck on here some time.

At the time Arthur is supposed to have lived, not only would he have been fighting the invading pagan English but also some of his own people who were either reverting into paganism or being assimilated by those invaders. It's pretty relevant when you see what is going on now.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Robin Hood »

Dave62 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:04 am
Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2024, 5:52 am Michael Sherwin has posted elsewhere on the idea of "England" (by which he means the neighbouring countries too) being the setting of the Book of Mormon. I don't agree with him and the topic is outside the remit of this thread. However, Robin Hood and others made some comments on that thread which tie into this one:
viewtopic.php?t=52973

Dave62 — Arthur as a bishop?
Dave62 wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 5:40 am In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

I suspect the apostacy happened later in the peripheries of the Roman Empire later then we might think. Consider the Pelagian heresy and it similarities to Mormon's epistles.
RH replies
Robin Hood wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 9:51 am I concur with much of your [Dave62's] post.
I have long held the view that the apostasy wasn't complete until 570AD. However, it will have occured in much of the known world quite a bit earlier. When the Roman Church missionaries came to England they encountered Britons who were already Christians and members of what we call today the Celtic Church. This church had nothing to do with Rome or the Pope.

Nibley notes that the apostles left instructions for the perpetuation of the office of bishop and you're right, a church ministered to and by Aaronic authority is very likely once the higher priesthood was lost. It is also likely that this situation could have persisted for some considerable time.
When we look at the structures of the Roman Catholic church, as well as Anglicans and Orthodox, we see the Aaronic pattern of bishop, priest and deacon to this very day.
Willow talks about her experience. As I have said above I think Arthurian legend is a fusion of Celtic myths with Christian material, along with various reinterpretations of Christian symbols .
Willow wrote: July 30th, 2021, 8:48 am You may all think this is funny, but when my youngest son and I read “The tales of King Arthur “ a few years ago, we found it to be an unexpected spiritual experience.

My son was 10 and was getting the priesthood in a few weeks at the time. At times the Spirit was so strong while we read this book that my son would comment on it and even asked why it carried a similar feeling of the scriptures.

The spiritual connections and the understandings that we had as we studied this book were innumerable. We were doing the study for our homeschool using Memoria Press. Sir Gawain and Sir Percival became my son’s favorite. He even named his new puppy Sir Percy .

I look on this time as a very sacred experience and am so glad for this thread. I am not certain what I think on it all at this time, but I cannot deny what happened to us either. The Spirit always testifies of truth and it was so sweet while we were studying this book.
That's very interesting, thank you. As for the BoM occurring in England or the British Isles, I may be a bit of an anglophile with mild British-Israelite 'leanings' but Moroni speaking like a Scouse from Liverpool is just a tad too far for me.
🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for that image. Now, whenever I read Moroni's words I know in my head I'll hear Steven Gerrard or Paul McCartney.
Last edited by Robin Hood on May 27th, 2024, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

logonbump
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by logonbump »

I found a thoroughly researched book positing that Jesus Christ and his descendants have a connection to the Celtic lands. A humble Mormon author wrote this 600 page tome that posits that Joseph Smith might actually have gained his royal birthright thru Jesus Christ and that Mary and Joseph of Arimathea had made their homes there in England.

https://archive.org/details/dynastyofho ... n/mode/1up

Can be checked out for an hour at a time through your Google login

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TheChristian
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by TheChristian »

Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:09 am
Dave62 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:04 am That's very interesting, thank you. As for the BoM occurring in England or the British Isles, I may be a bit of an anglophile with mild British-Israelite 'leanings' but Moroni speaking like a Scouse from Liverpool is just a tad too far for me.
I think there are some genuine mysteries about these islands' early history. I don't think the Book of Mormon took place in these parts myself. I should probably talk about the Book of Jeraneck on here some time.

At the time Arthur is supposed to have lived, not only would he have been fighting the invading pagan English but also some of his own people who were either reverting into paganism or being assimilated by those invaders. It's pretty relevant when you see what is going on now.
https://prophetictelegraph.co.uk/76-ama ... -evidence/

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

TheChristian wrote: May 26th, 2024, 1:14 pm
Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:09 am
Dave62 wrote: May 25th, 2024, 6:04 am That's very interesting, thank you. As for the BoM occurring in England or the British Isles, I may be a bit of an anglophile with mild British-Israelite 'leanings' but Moroni speaking like a Scouse from Liverpool is just a tad too far for me.
I think there are some genuine mysteries about these islands' early history. I don't think the Book of Mormon took place in these parts myself. I should probably talk about the Book of Jeraneck on here some time.

At the time Arthur is supposed to have lived, not only would he have been fighting the invading pagan English but also some of his own people who were either reverting into paganism or being assimilated by those invaders. It's pretty relevant when you see what is going on now.
https://prophetictelegraph.co.uk/76-ama ... -evidence/
Thanks, I have read this link before. I have mentioned some of the figures in it further up the thread such as Aristobulus. There are some other stories which I'll try and post on later.

I have always been aware that Christianity existed in these islands before Augustine. Partly because of the Celtic Church, which I knew had come into conflict with Augustine and came under attack at the Synod of Whitby and in Scotland under Malcolm Canmore and Queen Margaret. And partly because of the story of St Alban (who gives his name to St Albans) who was supposed to be a Roman era Martyr... He's a bit hazier but clearly someone, probably the Welsh, kept some kind of memory of him.

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Niemand
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Re: Celtic legends about the Bible

Post by Niemand »

Well, here's an odd thing. Up above I mention the Greek isle of Symi as being on the Michael Line.

Recently, the British TV doctor Michael Mosley died under mysterious circumstances there. His body was found in an area which had already been searched by drone and helicopter but was spotted by a boat very near to the perimeter fence of a resort.

So Michael Mosley died almost on the Michael Line, but I don't read much into this.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... -110961985

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