No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:50 am
Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:44 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:24 am
While God understands perfectly the creative power (aka sexuality), He also understands the misuse of it. You seem to throw out all inhibitions or sense of restraint.
I agree with you and I see how you could get that impression from what I'm saying.

It's not what I'm trying to say though.

I'm just trying to say the intent and spirit is what matters, not pieces of paper from a mortal government that you paid a fee to get (really quite vulgar if you think about it, funny how we make the marriage license the arbiter of chastity or unchastity).

I'm saying your measure of Christ-like love and responsibility towards God and towards the people you are doing the act with is the measure of your sexual morality.

I'm saying you could feasibly do all kinds of things that are considered unchaste or debauched - but not actually be unchaste or debauched if you did them in the right spirit.

My hypothesis is that many people do them in the wrong spirit and are unchaste.

And also that some people probably do do them in the right spirit, and actually are not as unchaste as we judge them to be, if at all.
You keep referencing the government. They have proven over and over again that they do not honor God. I wouldn't look to them as an authority on anything w/ respect to morality. We should be looking to what God has spoken, and then take that to Him for validation and/or rejection. Have you done that?
Yessir, I have. And am still. Very much so.

I'm glad you say that about the government - I agree with you. We may have had a miscommunication.

spiritMan
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by spiritMan »

Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 10:46 am Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.
When people have no argument.

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

spiritMan wrote: May 15th, 2024, 6:09 pm
Magus wrote: May 15th, 2024, 9:14 am Anyway, just my theory and I wanted to get it out there. I know a lot of people will disagree with me.
You have definitely picked up on the absolute putrid hypocrisy of LDS theology (but in this case isn't unique to LDS theology but to modern Christianity).

If the thoughts themselves are not sinful then one does not need to work to control one's thoughts. Feelings are also an extension or corollary to thoughts; they are inward parts of us that unless we talk to others about them or physically manifest them no one will know about it.

The root of the issue goes to "sin". What is sin? Sin is nothing more than "missing the mark" or "straying from the true path". That's it. The word for sin in the Scriptures does not in any way say only in your physical actions. The Jews during Christ's time believed that all that mattered was the outward manifestations of righteousness. In fact, Jews today still believe that it is actions that count, not any thoughts or feelings.

Christ called the Jews "whited sepulchers" full of dead men's bones. Their actions were pure and white, yet inside they were dead and rotten.

So Hinkley and anyone who preaches that cleansing the inward thoughts and feelings is not needed-that person is simply not Christian. Christ was all about the heart and the desires of the heart.

Modern Christianity is really just a Jewish belief system with Christ, it doesn't actually teach, believe, or live out what He taught.

Once you start saying "it's perfectly fine for xyz person to have sexual thoughts about the same-sex as long as they don't act on it" you have opened Pandora's box.

"it's perfectly fine for xyz person to have murderous thoughts about another person as long as they don't act on it"
"it's perfectly fine for xyz person to have thoughts of theft as long as they don't act on it"
"it's perfectly fine for xyz person to have thoughts of XYZ as long as they don't act on it"

There is absolutely 0 difference from a theological point of view.

The way the camel gets in the tent is the "well what if someone has a same-sex thought or feeling".
And the response (if we actually lived in a Christian society) would be "well what if someone has a murderous thought or feeling"

Does the person who has a murderous thought or feeling say "I'm 'murder attracted'"; NO! they work to not think, ruminate nor give life to those thoughts.

The moment that someone says they are "same-sex attracted" they ARE giving those thoughts and feelings life. Identifying as such is most definitely a sin...it "misses the mark".
I agree with your logic path.

But I also accept Hinckley's viewpoint on the attraction not being a sin - just that his insistence that acting on it *always* is doesn't add up logically speaking.

But when you see that the sin is about your heart and intent, about love/respect of God and others, as well as responsibility, it becomes easy to see where the nature of the sin is - and isn't. That's my argument.

Lizzy60
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Lizzy60 »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:02 am
spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 10:46 am Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.
When people have no argument.
Many of us have shared our arguments/reasoning, and your responses keep getting more heretical. Saying God/Jesus experience gay eroticism is so blasphemous it meets my definition of insanity.

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

Lizzy60 wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:37 am
Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:02 am
spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 10:46 am Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.
When people have no argument.
Many of us have shared our arguments/reasoning, and your responses keep getting more heretical. Saying God/Jesus experience gay eroticism is so blasphemous it meets my definition of insanity.
That gave me a good laugh - because I know how you feel. Hey, it was hard to say. I have to be intellectually honest, though. I'm pretty sure God understands. Fwiw, though, I said I'm open to the possibility that they could - not that they do. But hey - I'm willing to accept God for however he might be. Are you? Or do you just want to accept your idea of him based on what you've been taught?

How heretical and unrighteous of me to be open to whatever God might be, amirite. Insanity, I say. Surely I must be apostate for having such openness. Surely God frowns on me, but smiles on those who obediently only entertain what they've been told.

Those of you who have responded with arguments - I do appreciate them. I'm not dismissing them or saying you don't have an argument.

But that poster didn't really present much of an argument that I saw.

And no one is really refuting my arguments after I reply to them.

I can understand if someone just doesn't want to try - but to say it's not worth responding to is pretty condescending. I'm not an idiot, whether you think I'm a heretic or not.

Fwiw, I'm presenting my arguments not as a 100% personally endorsed viewpoint, either. I feel they are probably right, or at least could be, but I wouldn't bet my salvation on it just yet. Not entirely. That's why I'm here discussing it with people. Or trying to. People just getting mad, tho.
Last edited by Magus on May 16th, 2024, 12:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: May 15th, 2024, 3:18 pm
Magus wrote: May 15th, 2024, 1:13 pm You should check out my other thread in this forum about chastity and higher law.
Link?
Sorry, missed this post.

viewtopic.php?t=71908

JuneBug12000
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Your arguments ignore the emotional affect your actions have. I am no fan of psychology, but it does have its place.

Humans are dual beings having both a physical and emotional/spiritual aspect. Both can be wounded.

Some wounds happen quickly, like a car accident or betrayal. Some slowly, like cancer, or neglect.

Interestingly, Ayn Rand tried to live out her life philosophy thinking it totally rational, but, as often is the case when humans are involved, she forgot the human emotion/psyche/spirit, whatever you want to name it.

She destroyed the happiness of not only herself, but her husband, her lover, and her friend. She and her husband had a couple that they were very close friends with. Ayn proposed that she and the other husband pursue their self interest of sexual activity. Based on the rational principles they all mutually agree upon, her husband and the other wife could hardly object. The open affair took place, and it destroyed the happiness if all 4 people.

None of this takes into account the obvious physical consequences of potential children or disease. Not to mention the engineering of the human male and female body.

My husband is an engineer, things are often engineered to be "idiot proof." Designed in such a way that the parts only fit one orientation so as to avoid breaking the item or using it incorrectly. Human male and female bodies are designed in just such a way.

The "animals engage in homosexual behavior" doesn't move me. The part of humans that is "animal," is still a distinct species.

Do I think there are moral reasons for homosexual behavior being a sin. Yes. Do I think of sin less as "God's arbitrary displeasure" and more as "God's ability to see what will bring us more suffering the long run." Yes.

Add to that my long and close relationships with many who experience same sex attraction, some who have acted in it and some who have not, I have yet to see any who find peace with taking action on it in the long run.

You are not the first to think one can logic their way to justification of something that in the end, cannot be justified and only ends in sorrow.

Edit to add:

Did I totally forget to use question marks in my post. Yes. I mean ???? Yes 😜

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

JuneBug12000 wrote: May 16th, 2024, 1:20 pm Your arguments ignore the emotional affect your actions have. I am no fan of psychology, but it does have its place.

Humans are dual beings having both a physical and emotional/spiritual aspect. Both can be wounded.

Some wounds happen quickly, like a car accident or betrayal. Some slowly, like cancer, or neglect.

Interestingly, Ayn Rand tried to live out her life philosophy thinking it totally rational, but, as often is the case when humans are involved, she forgot the human emotion/psyche/spirit, whatever you want to name it.

She destroyed the happiness of not only herself, but her husband, her lover, and her friend. She and her husband had a couple that they were very close friends with. Ayn proposed that she and the other husband pursue their self interest of sexual activity. Based on the rational principles they all mutually agree upon, her husband and the other wife could hardly object. The open affair took place, and it destroyed the happiness if all 4 people.

None of this takes into account the obvious physical consequences of potential children or disease. Not to mention the engineering of the human male and female body.

My husband is an engineer, things are often engineered to be "idiot proof." Designed in such a way that the parts only fit one orientation so as to avoid breaking the item or using it incorrectly. Human male and female bodies are designed in just such a way.

The "animals engage in homosexual behavior" doesn't move me. The part of humans that is "animal," is still a distinct species.

Do I think there are moral reasons for homosexual behavior being a sin. Yes. Do I think of sin less as "God's arbitrary displeasure" and more as "God's ability to see what will bring us more suffering the long run." Yes.

Add to that my long and close relationships with many who experience same sex attraction, some who have acted in it and some who have not, I have yet to see any who find peace with taking action on it in the long run.

You are not the first to think one can logic their way to justification of something that in the end, cannot be justified and only ends in sorrow.

Edit to add:

Did I totally forget to use question marks in my post. Yes. I mean ???? Yes 😜
No ignoring intentional, I can tell you that I certainly am not ignoring them. Thank you for highlighting them though, that does bring up a good perspective.

Psychology has a huge impact on everything. I think having your heart in the right place (which I mentioned repeatedly) has a lot to do with the emotional aspect. What your intention is, what your feelings/love/respect are towards the other person, and in what way.

Your example of Ayn Rand is a good one and you raise a good point - but not everyone who decides to swing or have an open relationship ends up crashing and burning. There are a lot of people who do it successfully and are very happy. Polygamy, itself, is essentially male-centered swinging (though arguably both when you consider how it was applied historically).

Possibilities of children/disease - those are good points too, but very addressable. As far as pregnancy goes - A.) some people can't have kids B.) birth control C.) in the event there is an unwanted pregnancy - own it. As far as disease goes - modern medicine and safe practices/testing.

The part about animals engaging in same sex behavior was just meant to counter the person's; comment that it's 100% against "nature." I'm not sure what your comment about it is trying to say.

I agree with your comment on the nature of sin.

I do think that a person's ultimate happiness is within God's plan of union between the biological sexes and, ultimately, biological family.

But that doesn't rule out a place for same sex expression.

My comments are not about trying to "logic my way out" of anything, although I can see how it might appear that way to you. All I've done is given it a lot of study, thought and prayer.

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marc
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by marc »

The Hebrew word "hata" means to miss the mark. To be unlike Jesus Christ is to miss the mark. In our modern English language, this means to sin. To be or do anything that Jesus Christ wouldn't be or do if He were in your place is to miss the mark and thus to sin. The OP is misguided.

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Magus
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Magus »

marc wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:23 pm The Hebrew word "hata" means to miss the mark. To be unlike Jesus Christ is to miss the mark. In our modern English language, this means to sin. To be or do anything that Jesus Christ wouldn't be or do if He were in your place is to miss the mark and thus to sin. The OP is misguided.
I appreciate your input but I'd also appreciate an argument to back up your statement. Show me how.

spiritMan
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by spiritMan »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:02 am
spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 10:46 am Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.
When people have no argument.
You are fundamentally not Christian. It's not that there is no argument; it's that I'm talking to someone who is a pagan but wants to convince everyone they are Christian.

It's a pointless conversation. You are not Christian. And I'll easily prove it to you.
These are first century Christian beliefs, way, way before "The Great Apostasy"

https://legacyicons.com/content/didache.pdf
T his is the second commandment of the teaching.
You shall not murder.t
You shall not commit adultery.u
You shall not be sexually perverse.v
You shall not be sexually promiscuous.w
You shall not steal.x
You shall not practice magic.y
You shall not practice sorcery.z
You shall not murder a child by abortion, nor kill a child at birth.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s things.a
You shall not commit perjury.b
You shall not bear false witness.c
You shall not speak evil.d
You shall not bear a grudge.e
You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for the double tongue is a snare of death.f
Your words shall not be false or empty, but fulfilled in your actions.
You shall not be greedy,g
nor a swindler, nor a hypocrite, nor bad-tempered, nor proud.
You shall not plot against your neighbor.
You shall not hate any man, but you shall reprove some, and you shall pray for others, and others you
shall love more than your own life.

My child, flee from every evil thing, and everything that is like it.
Do not be angry, for anger leads to murder. Do not be jealous, nor argumentative, nor hottempered; for all of these things give birth to murder.
My child, do not be lustful, for lust leads to sexual promiscuity. Do not speak obscenely, and do not
have wandering eyes
; for all of these things give birth to promiscuity.
My child, do not deal in omens, since it leads to idolatry. Do not be an enchanter, nor an astrologer,
nor a magician—do not even be around such things; for all of these things give birth to idolatry.
My child, do not be a liar, since it leads to theft. Do not be greedy or vain; for all of these things give
birth to theft.
My child, be not a complainer, since it leads to blasphemy. Do not be stubborn nor evil-minded; for
all of these things give birth to blasphemy.
Be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth.i
Be patient, and merciful, and sincere, and quiet, and kind, and always fearing the words which you
have heard.j
Do not praise yourself, and do not let arrogance enter your soul. Do not join your soul with a pompous
person,k
but walk only with the righteous and the humble. Whatever happens to you, accept it as good,
knowing that nothing is done without God.
My child, remember him who proclaims to you the word of God. Remember him night and day,l
and
honor him as the Lord; for wherever he speaks, the Lord himself is there.
Every day, seek out the company of the saints, that you may find rest in their words.
Do not cause division, but bring peace between those who dispute. Judge righteously.m Do not favorone side when you reprove others. Do not be double-minded when you consider whether or not a thing
should be.
Do not hold out your hand to receive, only to pull your hand back when you should give. If you have
gained something through your work, give it away as a ransom for your sins. Do not hesitate to give, nor
complain when you give, for you know the good paymaster of your reward.
Do not turn away from anyone who is in need, but share everything with your your brother, and do
not say that anything is your own.n
For if you all share in the heavenly things, how much more in earthly
things?
Do not relax your control over your son or your daughter, but from their youth teach them the fear of
God.
Do not give a command in your anger to your servant, who trusts in the same God, lest he ceases to
fear the God who is over both of you. For he does not call men according to worldly status, but he comes
to those whom the Spirit has prepared.
And you who are servants, be obedient to your masters as to God, in respect and fear.o
Hate all hypocrisy, and everything that is not pleasing to the Lord.
Never forsake the Lord’s commandments. But you shall guard the things which you have received,
neither adding to them nor taking away from them.p
Confess your sins in church, and do not go to prayer with a guilty conscience.
This is the Way of Life.

spiritMan
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by spiritMan »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:25 pm
marc wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:23 pm The Hebrew word "hata" means to miss the mark. To be unlike Jesus Christ is to miss the mark. In our modern English language, this means to sin. To be or do anything that Jesus Christ wouldn't be or do if He were in your place is to miss the mark and thus to sin. The OP is misguided.
I appreciate your input but I'd also appreciate an argument to back up your statement. Show me how.
You are not Christian. Once you own up to that fact; then we can have a conversation.

spiritMan
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by spiritMan »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 12:14 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:37 am
Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:02 am

When people have no argument.
Many of us have shared our arguments/reasoning, and your responses keep getting more heretical. Saying God/Jesus experience gay eroticism is so blasphemous it meets my definition of insanity.
Fwiw, though, I said I'm open to the possibility that they could - not that they do.
God is a "they" now?

You are not Christian.

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marc
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by marc »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:25 pm
marc wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:23 pm The Hebrew word "hata" means to miss the mark. To be unlike Jesus Christ is to miss the mark. In our modern English language, this means to sin. To be or do anything that Jesus Christ wouldn't be or do if He were in your place is to miss the mark and thus to sin. The OP is misguided.
I appreciate your input but I'd also appreciate an argument to back up your statement. Show me how.
My argument is self explanatory. But here are some scriptures to solidify my statement:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are to be LIKE Jesus. This means to take upon ourselves HIS attributes. To be anything less or other than what He was, taught, and commanded is to be UNLIKE Him. It is to miss the mark and to miss the mark is the definition of sin.

spiritMan
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by spiritMan »

marc wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:39 pm
Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:25 pm
marc wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:23 pm The Hebrew word "hata" means to miss the mark. To be unlike Jesus Christ is to miss the mark. In our modern English language, this means to sin. To be or do anything that Jesus Christ wouldn't be or do if He were in your place is to miss the mark and thus to sin. The OP is misguided.
I appreciate your input but I'd also appreciate an argument to back up your statement. Show me how.
My argument is self explanatory. But here are some scriptures to solidify my statement:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are to be LIKE Jesus. This means to take upon ourselves HIS attributes. To be anything less or other than what He was, taught, and commanded is to be UNLIKE Him. It is to miss the mark and to miss the mark is the definition of sin.
He isn't Christian but wants to convince everyone that he is. Thus, until the lies and decipt are removed from his eyes(assuming a he), scriptures won't convince him.

Why? Because he believes that he IS following the scriptures and IS Christian. His interpretation is a pagan one and until he is honest about that Christian reading of it won't matter.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Shawn Henry »

Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:10 am Yes - but God is sexual. And erotic.
That's not an accurate statement

The Savior completely subjected all carnal impulses, the will of the flesh, to the will of the spirit and there is no indication that carnality continues in resurrected flesh.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Shawn Henry »

Fred wrote: May 15th, 2024, 2:55 pm There is nothing natural about same sex attraction.
The carnal flesh has always naturally had deviations.

It is said that every population has had roughly 2% homosexuality. I don't know if the percentage is accurate or if part of them weren't unnaturally converted to the lifestyle, but there does indeed seem to be some who honestly feel as if they were born that way.

Sickness and disease can be very natural. I would never tell a pedophile he wasn't born that way. I'm sure the sick bastard was born that way.

All are under the same standard which is; don't give in to your carnal desires. Let the spirit master the flesh.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: May 16th, 2024, 8:54 am Here are a few verses worth pondering:
2 Nephi 9
[39] O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.
Mosiah 16
[3] For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
[5] But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
[12] Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.
Alma 42
[10] Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
These scriptures apply to all though, right? So, who could you possibly be singling out?

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Fred
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Fred »

Shawn Henry wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:16 pm
Fred wrote: May 15th, 2024, 2:55 pm There is nothing natural about same sex attraction.
The carnal flesh has always naturally had deviations.

It is said that every population has had roughly 2% homosexuality. I don't know if the percentage is accurate or if part of them weren't unnaturally converted to the lifestyle, but there does indeed seem to be some who honestly feel as if they were born that way.

Sickness and disease can be very natural. I would never tell a pedophile he wasn't born that way. I'm sure the sick bastard was born that way.

All are under the same standard which is; don't give in to your carnal desires. Let the spirit master the flesh.
Sometimes you really make me think. But I don't think I am willing to call something natural that wasn't designed that way. Could be a genetic defect or created by outside stimulus. The genetic structure of Adam and Eve was pure. I don't know when the first fag appeared, but the eunuchs were created, not born that way. Maybe children playing pee pees grows on some people. I don't know how it works. But I'm not ready to call it natural.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Wolfwoman »

spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 4:30 pm
Magus wrote: May 16th, 2024, 11:02 am
spiritMan wrote: May 16th, 2024, 10:46 am Lord Have Mercy!

I don't think it's worth responding to any of this insanity.
When people have no argument.
You are fundamentally not Christian. It's not that there is no argument; it's that I'm talking to someone who is a pagan but wants to convince everyone they are Christian.

It's a pointless conversation. You are not Christian. And I'll easily prove it to you.
These are first century Christian beliefs, way, way before "The Great Apostasy"

https://legacyicons.com/content/didache.pdf
T his is the second commandment of the teaching.
You shall not murder.t
You shall not commit adultery.u
You shall not be sexually perverse.v
You shall not be sexually promiscuous.w
You shall not steal.x
You shall not practice magic.y
You shall not practice sorcery.z
You shall not murder a child by abortion, nor kill a child at birth.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s things.a
You shall not commit perjury.b
You shall not bear false witness.c
You shall not speak evil.d
You shall not bear a grudge.e
You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for the double tongue is a snare of death.f
Your words shall not be false or empty, but fulfilled in your actions.
You shall not be greedy,g
nor a swindler, nor a hypocrite, nor bad-tempered, nor proud.
You shall not plot against your neighbor.
You shall not hate any man, but you shall reprove some, and you shall pray for others, and others you
shall love more than your own life.

My child, flee from every evil thing, and everything that is like it.
Do not be angry, for anger leads to murder. Do not be jealous, nor argumentative, nor hottempered; for all of these things give birth to murder.
My child, do not be lustful, for lust leads to sexual promiscuity. Do not speak obscenely, and do not
have wandering eyes
; for all of these things give birth to promiscuity.
My child, do not deal in omens, since it leads to idolatry. Do not be an enchanter, nor an astrologer,
nor a magician—do not even be around such things; for all of these things give birth to idolatry.
My child, do not be a liar, since it leads to theft. Do not be greedy or vain; for all of these things give
birth to theft.
My child, be not a complainer, since it leads to blasphemy. Do not be stubborn nor evil-minded; for
all of these things give birth to blasphemy.
Be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth.i
Be patient, and merciful, and sincere, and quiet, and kind, and always fearing the words which you
have heard.j
Do not praise yourself, and do not let arrogance enter your soul. Do not join your soul with a pompous
person,k
but walk only with the righteous and the humble. Whatever happens to you, accept it as good,
knowing that nothing is done without God.
My child, remember him who proclaims to you the word of God. Remember him night and day,l
and
honor him as the Lord; for wherever he speaks, the Lord himself is there.
Every day, seek out the company of the saints, that you may find rest in their words.
Do not cause division, but bring peace between those who dispute. Judge righteously.m Do not favorone side when you reprove others. Do not be double-minded when you consider whether or not a thing
should be.
Do not hold out your hand to receive, only to pull your hand back when you should give. If you have
gained something through your work, give it away as a ransom for your sins. Do not hesitate to give, nor
complain when you give, for you know the good paymaster of your reward.
Do not turn away from anyone who is in need, but share everything with your your brother, and do
not say that anything is your own.n
For if you all share in the heavenly things, how much more in earthly
things?
Do not relax your control over your son or your daughter, but from their youth teach them the fear of
God.
Do not give a command in your anger to your servant, who trusts in the same God, lest he ceases to
fear the God who is over both of you. For he does not call men according to worldly status, but he comes
to those whom the Spirit has prepared.
And you who are servants, be obedient to your masters as to God, in respect and fear.o
Hate all hypocrisy, and everything that is not pleasing to the Lord.
Never forsake the Lord’s commandments. But you shall guard the things which you have received,
neither adding to them nor taking away from them.p
Confess your sins in church, and do not go to prayer with a guilty conscience.
This is the Way of Life.
This is pretty cool. I’ve never read it before.

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Shawn Henry
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5077

Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Shawn Henry »

Fred wrote: May 16th, 2024, 9:31 pm Sometimes you really make me think. But I don't think I am willing to call something natural that wasn't designed that way. Could be a genetic defect or created by outside stimulus. The genetic structure of Adam and Eve was pure. I don't know when the first fag appeared, but the eunuchs were created, not born that way. Maybe children playing pee pees grows on some people. I don't know how it works. But I'm not ready to call it natural.
Supposing a corruption of the genetic line, once that has happened nature has changed into something new. The corruption would be passed on or inherited and become "natural", at least as far as those affected by it goes. They have no choice but to inherit the corruption, it can't be changed on their end, barring miraculous healing.

Just thinking out loud, in any case, subduing the carnal flesh is the task before us all.

Lynn
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1076

Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Lynn »

Do you want my "take" on this delicate subject?

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TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6203
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by TheDuke »

It is interesting that the entire definition of adultery takes on "lust" according to RW and others. But this is not so. Jesus specifically says in two gospels about both adultery and about fornication. He says that adultery is allowing lust to destroy a marriage. He specifically calls out some adultery being due to fornication.

As stated above adultery is destroying a family and is not necessarily related to sex or fornication. Often it is. But the OT and NT definitions (and BoM) are about family, hence it can only be adultery if married. I am NOT saying sex outside marriage isn't wrong. I'm saying destroying a family is the real sin! and Jesus says the same thing.

And lust being equated with sex is also wrong. There are many things to lust for, many are listed a few are (sexual, money, power, land, fame, etc....)

Search as you may to tie a canonical statement between adultery sex. The only and the first place sex outside of marriage is stated is the beautiful (but FF infamous) D&C 132. It is the ONLY place where it directly says a man or woman, married and having sex outside of marriage is adultery. BTW it only says this for those in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and more over those sealed by the HSoP. Hence the statement is correct about a higher law.

To be clear I am not saying sex outside of marriage in any form is acceptable. But most Christians and most LDS conflate the definitions. Not to add polygam as god given. Else get past Abraham, Jacob (Israel), David, Joseph, Boaz, long, long list). Hebrew law required you to sire children with you brother' widow if he died w/o a son! There are many examples of men having sex outside of marriage and the men never get in trouble. Lot and his daughters, Boaz and Ruth, Judah and his DIL (with dead husband) btw here there is no stigma to his searching out prostitutes! Jesus and the woman.


Now reaching back to the OP about SSA. I feel SSA is not in line with god's description of godliness. It isn't allowed in celestial or terrestrial spheres. As far as in telestial, many don't keep commandments. This doesn't seem to be the worst, not adultery or murder, etc... but seems to hold back the participants from progresssion.

As far as I know the only way to commit sin is to act on it. Don't bother to quote the lusting in your mind, as I see this as a warning step to action, not something in itself. And there is NO PUNISHMENT ever stated for thoughts alone, just warnings.

Lastly, I'm sure that god's have better intimacy than imaginable, with their parner(s). To think that celetial people would have no sexual desires, is IMO just silly. God is a perfect man, a manly man, and I'm sure his wife is a beautiful and real woman. Not some sexless entities with masculilne and femmine traits.

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Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 16635
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: No longer convinced same-sex expression is always a sin

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: May 19th, 2024, 6:44 pm It is interesting that the entire definition of adultery takes on "lust" according to RW and others. But this is not so. Jesus specifically says in two gospels about both adultery and about fornication. He says that adultery is allowing lust to destroy a marriage. He specifically calls out some adultery being due to fornication.
Can a person have an emotional affair or commit adultery in their heart? Yes, I believe so. It's pretty clear to me in verse 28 that this is what Christ is teaching.

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

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