What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

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nightlight
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: April 11th, 2024, 6:13 pm
nightlight wrote: April 11th, 2024, 5:51 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 11th, 2024, 5:39 pm

Absence of love = evil. God is love. Separation from God = evil.

Man can choose dominion of God or dominion of Satan i.e. Good or evil. Our perception, our belief, our acceptance of the Love of God through Christ determines which power has dominion.

I understand. People just don't understand what I'm saying.

Christ came to restore us back into that relationship- the same relationship we had before the fall.
I understand what you're saying.

I don't think you understand me

Why is there an absence of love?
Why is that even a possibility?


......That said, it really doesn't matter. What we know is evil exists.......

That's the question though

Why , why does it exist ?

(how/why it manifest is not the topic, but obviously is more important)

Why would two two perfectly made beings choose imperfection?

Why is Satan?

Why would God put Satan in the Garden?

People think of man and his fall (rightfully so),

But pride is beyond the flesh and manifested in God's children before the Earth and flesh even was

Why?

I know why

You were told why...but you deny it

Without one...there can't be the other.

If there is righteousness... then there is sin

If there is good...then there is bad

If you love only those who love you, what are you?

If the ultimate form of love is to love those who hate you, how can love reach it's potential without hate?

Our spirits are forever, regardless of Brighamites teach.

Love and Hate will always exist somewhere

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Mortal parents tend to agree to let their infant male children be circumcised. In their opinion, the considerable amount of pain their newborn, crying baby will have from the procedure is worth the long term benefits the act brings. I wonder if God looks on mortal suffering in a comparable way?

I believe we live more than once. Not reincarnation, as in coming to this earth over and over again but living a single time here and a single time on future new worlds (we've heard that term before, right? I can't remember if the exact phrase is "you have a new earth here" or "you have a new world here", doesn't he then go on to literally say like the one we came from before?). It hurts to think about, but in the grand scheme of eternity and eternal progression we've probably all done our fair share of suffering in the past and probably have more to come in future mortal lives and it's part of the reality that in this sphere of existence (living a mortal life) we can act upon others and others can act upon us and suffering can be a consequence of that.


The worth of a single soul is great. When you see what Joseph was really getting at with the King Follet Discourse (TRUE eternal progression, walking the path Christ walked, ascending), you can better understand why there is so much value in a single soul. As a soul progresses and becomes more, it's able to be of greater use in the future for other earths, which in turn will help other souls ascend, which will help other souls ascend, etc.

Joseph shortly before he was taken out:
The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Brilliant and terrifying.
Last edited by BuriedTartaria on April 11th, 2024, 8:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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John Tavner
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: April 11th, 2024, 8:03 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 11th, 2024, 6:13 pm
nightlight wrote: April 11th, 2024, 5:51 pm

I understand what you're saying.

I don't think you understand me

Why is there an absence of love?
Why is that even a possibility?


......That said, it really doesn't matter. What we know is evil exists.......

That's the question though

Why , why does it exist ?

(how/why it manifest is not the topic, but obviously is more important)

Why would two two perfectly made beings choose imperfection?

Why is Satan?

Why would God put Satan in the Garden?

People think of man and his fall (rightfully so),

But pride is beyond the flesh and manifested in God's children before the Earth and flesh even was

Why?

I know why

You were told why...but you deny it

Without one...there can't be the other.

If there is righteousness... then there is sin

If there is good...then there is bad

If you love only those who love you, what are you?

If the ultimate form of love is to love those who hate you, how can love reach it's potential without hate?

Our spirits are forever, regardless of Brighamites teach.

Love and Hate will always exist somewhere

It's interesting. I"ve given you answer backed by scripture, but you don't care to hear them and then claim I'm denying something- It means 1) you didn't read what I wrote or 2) you don't care to hear. Either way, I don't care what you say about me- God knows my heart and I do too. You do you pikachu.

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nightlight
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: April 11th, 2024, 8:39 pm
nightlight wrote: April 11th, 2024, 8:03 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 11th, 2024, 6:13 pm



......That said, it really doesn't matter. What we know is evil exists.......

That's the question though

Why , why does it exist ?

(how/why it manifest is not the topic, but obviously is more important)

Why would two two perfectly made beings choose imperfection?

Why is Satan?

Why would God put Satan in the Garden?

People think of man and his fall (rightfully so),

But pride is beyond the flesh and manifested in God's children before the Earth and flesh even was

Why?

I know why

You were told why...but you deny it

Without one...there can't be the other.

If there is righteousness... then there is sin

If there is good...then there is bad

If you love only those who love you, what are you?

If the ultimate form of love is to love those who hate you, how can love reach it's potential without hate?

Our spirits are forever, regardless of Brighamites teach.

Love and Hate will always exist somewhere

It's interesting. I"ve given you answer backed by scripture, but you don't care to hear them and then claim I'm denying something- It means 1) you didn't read what I wrote or 2) you don't care to hear. Either way, I don't care what you say about me- God knows my heart and I do too. You do you pikachu.
I'm at least a Raichu by now , bro....

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by BuriedTartaria »

nightlight wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:05 pm

I'm at least a Raichu by now , bro....
Image

One of the best Pokemon.

With an amazing "remix" design too.

Image
Last edited by BuriedTartaria on April 11th, 2024, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atrasado
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Atrasado »

onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:10 pm
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:01 pm I suspect there are a variety of ways people would answer that question. I think the first way is answer that would be that individual agency is required for moral and intellectual growth. And evil is an unavoidable side effect of agency, for limited knowledge and the ability to choose wrong is necessary for agency to be real.

Second, evil strengthens our ability to love others. For, if you only love those who are lovable you are not stretching yourself very much. Learning to love evil people makes it so we can love everyone more.

Those are two reasons that came to me. I'm excited to hear what other people think.
Going back to my college days, my professor would respond by saying, if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all benevolent God, then why wouldn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself? Why would he need to create a being who needs to learn and grow when he could have simply made us all powerful, all knowing, and all loving just like himself? He could have made us with free will and perfect so that we would never make a bad choice. Basically his response is, "why didn't God just create us to be perfect like himself?"
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.

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Hogmeister
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Hogmeister »

2 Nephi 2

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Niemand
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Niemand »

Serragon wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:40 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 3:46 pm
If God is an all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, then why is there evil in the world?

In other words, if God is all powerful, He would have the power to not allow evil in the world. If God is all knowing, He would have the know how to stop evil from being in the world. And, if God is an all loving and benevolent God surely He would not allow evil into the world! So, since there is evil in the world, then God cannot exist.
There is no paradox. The problem is the presumptions made by those who think it is a paradox.

The question pre-supposes that because God is all loving, evil should not exist. But this is simply a projection of the questioners own understanding.

The idea that God doesn't exist because the world doesn't correspond to your own ideas about what God should be doing is not proof that God does not exist. It is just illogic based in hubris.
There is a paradox. One of the questions it raises is whether God himself is sadistic in allowing this, and that would that in and of itself make God evil. If so, we wander into gnostic territory. Or into non-interventionism, where God effectively allows the universe to run itself. (Which I don't believe either.)

The Book of Job represents the relationship between God and Satan quite differently from how we are accustomed to seeing it.

I've always found it troubling. If a good parent sees their children getting into severe danger, they usually try and remove them from the situation. There are signs that God prevents even more horrific things from happening here, but some of the things which have happened are bad enough.

A Disciple
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by A Disciple »

Serragon wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:40 pm ...
The question pre-supposes that because God is all loving, evil should not exist. But this is simply a projection of the questioners own understanding.

The idea that God doesn't exist because the world doesn't correspond to your own ideas about what God should be doing is not proof that God does not exist. It is just illogic based in hubris.
This is it. It is a false, baseless notion that an all-perfect being would demonstrate that perfection by only allowing perfection. In fact this notion is evil and is the basis for tyranny.

God is not a tyrant. Apply that principle to the character of God and now ask the question: Why does God allow suffering?

God allows suffering because allowing things to happen is God's perfect character. An all powerful evil person is going to intervene, always, and excercise tyranny in order to control what happens.

The example of God allowing his beloved son to be crucified is a witness of God's eternal character. God was willing to allow that evil to take place because it was necessary. Not only to fulfill the Atonement but to show that God's greatest power is to allow free will - to allow bad things to happen. It is only by enabling evil to exist that good can overcome evil.

A Disciple
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by A Disciple »

I asked earlier the question: "What is evil?"

I don't believe sin is of itself evil. Causing harm to others is evil but there are degrees of harm and degrees of intent. A person who deliberately drives carelessly for a cheap thrill and injures and kills others due to that decision is evil, at least in that moment. But that evil is far different than the person who with great premeditation destroys and crushes many lives in order to accomplish a political or financial goal.

In his ministry Jesus spoke against sin but was compassionate to the sinner. Jesus reserved his rebuke and condemnation to a particular type of person - those who practiced Priestcraft. This would be those who sought to profit off the worship of God and who with great public hypocrisy promoted themselves while putting down others.

I find the Gospel of John invaluable for appreciating God's standard of judgement. In John 10:10, Jesus calls out the "thief" who "steals, kills and destroys". Jesus then says that he is the "good shepherd" who has come to provide not only life but an abundant life. John chapter 9 relates the incredible story of Jesus healing a blind man. The healed man and his parents are grateful. The priests and scribes are angry for they see Jesus threatening their authority. The priests and scribes are evil. They are thieves who steal, kill and destroy.

As explained in previous comments, an aspect of God's perfection is he allows Free-Will even though that yields pain & sorrow. But God is not passive. He is not the lazy parent who doesn't care what happens with his kids. God cares for Good overcoming Evil. He provides the example of Goodness and he asks us to become his disciples, his ambassadors, for being a light to the world. The Light of Christ reveals Evil and cause it to shrink away.

Sin will always be with us. But Evil can be challenged and rooted out. The Book of Mormon is a tutorial on facing Evil. One option is to flee - Lehi and Nephi and Mosiah (1st) each did this. Another option is to challenge it. Mosiah (1st) and Captain Moroni did this militarily. The sons of Mosiah (2nd) did this spiritually - they went to the Lamanites and preached the true gospel.

The greatest challenge of Evil is finding people with a gumption to fight it. The other challenge is finding people who understand what the fight is about. Politics shows us that there are many willing to jump into the "fight". But their interest is not to defeat Evil but to profit from the appearance of fighting for a cause that their supporters want.

Alma 48 describes the qualities of character needed to make the fight against Evil.
Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery; Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people. Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.

Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God. Now behold, Helaman and his brethren were no less serviceable unto the people than was Moroni; for they did preach the word of God, and they did baptize unto repentance all men whosoever would hearken unto their words. And thus they went forth, and the people did humble themselves because of their words, insomuch that they were highly favored of the Lord, and thus they were free from wars and contentions among themselves, yea, even for the space of four years.

ILiveIDieILiveAgain
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by ILiveIDieILiveAgain »

Talk only about the good and the things that work. Ignore the bad and the things that don't work. And hope that people don't investigate into it any further.
That strategy did work for hundreds of years during the Middle Ages.

Jashon
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Jashon »

Why does the problem of evil lead to loss of Christian faith?
Of course, there are innumerable long and complex rationalizations as to how it is possible for God to have created everything, and also be omnipotent - and yet there be evil in the world.

Yet these arguments have, for many and various reasons (including that they are, in my opinion, all of them fundamentally incoherent!), failed to convince.

In practice; the stark and observable experiences of evil powerfully refute the idea of a personal, all-creating, omnipotent and wholly-good God in the context of modern consciousness.

In this context; so long as Christians Insist that God Must Be creator-of-all, and omnipotent, and wholly-Good - for so long will the experience of evil lead quite naturally to the abandonment of Christianity.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Serragon wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:40 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 3:46 pm
If God is an all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, then why is there evil in the world?

In other words, if God is all powerful, He would have the power to not allow evil in the world. If God is all knowing, He would have the know how to stop evil from being in the world. And, if God is an all loving and benevolent God surely He would not allow evil into the world! So, since there is evil in the world, then God cannot exist.
There is no paradox. The problem is the presumptions made by those who think it is a paradox.

The question pre-supposes that because God is all loving, evil should not exist. But this is simply a projection of the questioners own understanding.

The idea that God doesn't exist because the world doesn't correspond to your own ideas about what God should be doing is not proof that God does not exist. It is just illogic based in hubris.
See how easy it was to explain this, folks?

What? Three sentences??? 😂

This is why I always love your posts.

onefour1
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by onefour1 »

Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:10 pm
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:01 pm I suspect there are a variety of ways people would answer that question. I think the first way is answer that would be that individual agency is required for moral and intellectual growth. And evil is an unavoidable side effect of agency, for limited knowledge and the ability to choose wrong is necessary for agency to be real.

Second, evil strengthens our ability to love others. For, if you only love those who are lovable you are not stretching yourself very much. Learning to love evil people makes it so we can love everyone more.

Those are two reasons that came to me. I'm excited to hear what other people think.
Going back to my college days, my professor would respond by saying, if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all benevolent God, then why wouldn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself? Why would he need to create a being who needs to learn and grow when he could have simply made us all powerful, all knowing, and all loving just like himself? He could have made us with free will and perfect so that we would never make a bad choice. Basically his response is, "why didn't God just create us to be perfect like himself?"
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.

A Disciple
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by A Disciple »

onefour1 wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:39 am
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:10 pm

Going back to my college days, my professor would respond by saying, if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all benevolent God, then why wouldn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself? Why would he need to create a being who needs to learn and grow when he could have simply made us all powerful, all knowing, and all loving just like himself? He could have made us with free will and perfect so that we would never make a bad choice. Basically his response is, "why didn't God just create us to be perfect like himself?"
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.
Not looking for an argument but appreciate that what I highlighted in your response may be viewed as a paradox. If there is a "right choice" and one is designed to make it, does one possess free will?

Consider that a math formula can be written to always give the "right answer". Such a math formula does not have free will. It can only do what it is written to do.

The grand philosophical question of the universe is and remains: Is the universe deterministic or non-deterministic? If it is non-deterministic than what is the role of God in that universe? If it is deterministic than how can there be free will?

Atrasado
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Atrasado »

onefour1 wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:39 am
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:10 pm

Going back to my college days, my professor would respond by saying, if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all benevolent God, then why wouldn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself? Why would he need to create a being who needs to learn and grow when he could have simply made us all powerful, all knowing, and all loving just like himself? He could have made us with free will and perfect so that we would never make a bad choice. Basically his response is, "why didn't God just create us to be perfect like himself?"
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.
So, if you came into being with perfect desires, then you don't have the ability to desire whatever you want. Who, then, chose for you? Your creator. Then you are actually just an extension of your creator, and not a real being in any meaningful way. You're just a puppet. That doesn't sound like a great thing to me.

Atrasado
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Atrasado »

Rubicon wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:45 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 4:33 pm
I agree that we are create in the image of God both physical and spiritual but we have not quite reached the perfection of God. Again, my professor would argue that since God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, He could and should have simply created us to be perfect like himself (ie all powerful, all knowing, and all loving).
Again, his assumptions are faulty and not true. God is not absolutely all powerful and all knowing. So, his "could and should have" argument starts off from the wrong place.

And, "all loving" means "tough love" --- what is ultimately best in the scheme of things. Children and even adults view things all the time as being "hateful" or "not loving" (such as condemning sin) which actually are the epitome of love. Not shielding us from the Problem of Evil is one of those things.
I'm pretty sure that God is all knowing and all powerful, even if we don't exactly understand what those things mean. At least he'd better be, or there's no way we can be sure he can keep all of his promises.

Atrasado
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Atrasado »

A Disciple wrote: April 12th, 2024, 11:08 am
onefour1 wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:39 am
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.
Not looking for an argument but appreciate that what I highlighted in your response may be viewed as a paradox. If there is a "right choice" and one is designed to make it, does one possess free will?

Consider that a math formula can be written to always give the "right answer". Such a math formula does not have free will. It can only do what it is written to do.

The grand philosophical question of the universe is and remains: Is the universe deterministic or non-deterministic? If it is non-deterministic than what is the role of God in that universe? If it is deterministic than how can there be free will?
The way I've heard it in an NDE is that God doesn't predetermine what we do, he just knows what all of the possibilities are and which possibilities are more likely than others. That takes a LOT more processing power than just knowing what's going to happen, but he's infinitely knowing and intelligent so I'm sure he can do that.

That way God can know everything and preserve our free choice.

onefour1
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by onefour1 »

A Disciple wrote: April 12th, 2024, 11:08 am
onefour1 wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:39 am
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.
Not looking for an argument but appreciate that what I highlighted in your response may be viewed as a paradox. If there is a "right choice" and one is designed to make it, does one possess free will?

Consider that a math formula can be written to always give the "right answer". Such a math formula does not have free will. It can only do what it is written to do.

The grand philosophical question of the universe is and remains: Is the universe deterministic or non-deterministic? If it is non-deterministic than what is the role of God in that universe? If it is deterministic than how can there be free will?
I wouldn't say that the person is designed to make the right choice but is designed to know and understand the pros and cons of good vs evil and then given free will to choose rationalizes that good is a better choice. Through his mental faculties he would understand that good is a better choice than evil and thus through personal inspection he would always make the better choice. What really makes one in our world today choose good over evil or evil over good? Is it not that they have learned or have a knowledge that good is better than evil or that they lack the knowledge or understanding and simply choose evil over good out of a misguided understanding? Having more intelligence does not mean that one is designed or forced to make a certain decision but that they are designed to have knowledge to make a more rational based decision and with a more complete knowledge I surmise that one would simply have the ability to make a more rational decision and thus lead him to always make the right decision.

onefour1
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by onefour1 »

Atrasado wrote: April 12th, 2024, 12:25 pm
onefour1 wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:39 am
Atrasado wrote: April 11th, 2024, 9:55 pm
That seems like a contradiction. If God had made us perfect, then we'd have no agency. Perfection is mainly a moral condition, it seems. If we were given that condition then moral agency would be impossible. I hope he didn't teach philosophy, rhetoric, or logic.
Not sure how that would take away agency. If you come into existence as an all powerful, all knowing, an all loving being and at the same time were given free will, you would simply make choices based upon your understanding of reality and always make the right choices. It is only because of our state of imperfection that we make wrong choices. Moral agency would still be there because you are free to choose, you simply would make a more righteous choice than when you are an imperfect being.
So, if you came into being with perfect desires, then you don't have the ability to desire whatever you want. Who, then, chose for you? Your creator. Then you are actually just an extension of your creator, and not a real being in any meaningful way. You're just a puppet. That doesn't sound like a great thing to me.
I would say that if you came into this world desiring that which is perfect and are given free will you choose what you do desire and that is what you want. You chose for yourself because those were your desires because you rationalized with a more perfect knowledge that it made more sense to you to choose good over evil. Having a lack of knowledge does not make you more free! Christ for example may have been born with a much higher knowledge that allowed him to never sin. Was Christ not a free agent or was he more of a robot? I don't believe so. I don't believe that having more knowledge, power, love etc lessens us as free will agents but simply enlightens us to desire good more than evil.

onefour1
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by onefour1 »

Bottom line is that the argument is a moot argument. D&C 93:29 tells us that God could not create our intelligence and thus could not create us to be perfect anyway. If our intelligence is self-existing, we all acquire our intelligence through being taught or through self experience, etc. Thus this temporary life experience of good and evil is proving to be a means of learning by experience and teaching and is calculated to replace the notion of being created to have all power, knowledge and benevolence.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

I'm inferring from this post that "evil" is not equated with evil spirits. This is standard throughout the LDS Church. All evil is a result of the influence of Satan and his minions. And the problem of evil is absolutely necessary to the plan of salvation. The evil spirits that influence evil thoughts and acts are indispensable to our returning to God because they provide the necessary opposition that gives us the choice between choosing good or evil. Lehi gave fantastic counsel on this to his son, Joseph.

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
(2 Nephi 2:11)

We cannot return to God without demonstrating that we deserve to return based on our lifetime consistent choices of good over evil.

Peeps2.0
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Peeps2.0 »

The problem of evil started with rebellion against the Most High God, with the "sons of God who exalted themselves to be gods...."

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."


This goes along with the story of Lucifer trying to exalt himself above the stars of God, to be "like the Most High" in Isaiah 14:

11 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"


This was the same entity that was in Ezekiel 28, except he/she/it was just hiding in a host body, the King of Tyre.

The Father is a Spirit, He does not have a body of flesh and bones as D&C 130 says. Jesus Christ was also with the Father as the "Word," but He was made flesh to pay for our sins because we left our first estate to take on a flesh body as John 1:1-14 says.

Because in the preexistence, there was an entity walking up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (the gnolaum/intelligences of Abraham 3) telling them lies, and showing them "porn" (flesh bodies). And telling them lies that no one had created them, they always existed, along with other matter/materials. And the way to become like "God" was to be covered with flesh, that it was the path to "exaltation".

But the Most God, our Father, has said in Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." And again in chapter 46:9-10, "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"


Abraham 3:24 says there was "one like unto God," and this entity convinced many to follow him to get a "second estate" by allowing themselves to be put into flesh bodies. This was a trap. A pre-Garden deception, the flesh body was the original "forbidden fruit" but some older entity showed us porn, and this was the first knowledge, it just needed to be reconfirmed, and it was, with the fall.

This was the initial rebellion, because Psalm 104:4 says, "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:"--these were the stones of fire. Flesh cannot dwell in the presence of the Father, "For our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29).

This got us cast out into the lowest parts of the earth, until we could be knitted into mothers' wombs, as Psalm 139 says:
13 "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


The LORD God was bringing Adam up from "the lowest parts of the earth" by forming him from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:4.

That is why Jesus told the Pharisees that they came from beneath in John 8:23, "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."


There are two seeds, the serpent's or Christ's, a wheat or a tare, a sheep or a goat, those covered by the blood of Christ, or by the cherub of Ezekiel 28.

Those that do the will of the Father become the family members of Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:50 KJV: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.") They are adopted back by being reborn of the Spirit, and Christ's shed blood, because He fulfilled the law (of carnal commandments) that we had put ourselves under perfectly.
Image

Joseph Smith said, "I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, 'Abba, Father!' Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 375,16 June 1844). He was given 11 days to repent, but unfortunately he chose not to.

Romans 8:14-16 is where Joseph Smith got the "and we can all cry Abba" from. But look how much he perverted it! Because he became a Master Mason-Luciferian.
14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"


The Endowment ceremony is a bastarized version of it all, it has the "Elohim" (who are really the third rebellious host) portrayed as the Father, in charge of Jehovah.

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FrankOne
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by FrankOne »

onefour1 wrote: April 11th, 2024, 3:46 pm When I was in college and took a philosophy of religion course, I was presented with the "problem of evil" paradox that has been made in the philosophies of religion. It goes something like this:

If God is an all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, then why is there evil in the world?

In other words, if God is all powerful, He would have the power to not allow evil in the world. If God is all knowing, He would have the know how to stop evil from being in the world. And, if God is an all loving and benevolent God surely He would not allow evil into the world! So, since there is evil in the world, then God cannot exist.

This is how the problem of evil was presented to me in my philosophy of religion course. After studying this "problem of evil" for several years upon hearing it, I finally came up with my LDS response to why there is evil in the world and why God allows it. I am curious as to how others answer this philosophical issue. So I ask you all, how would you respond to this?
if God created all, then he created evil. If God is omniscient, then he knew that the creation of Lucifer would result in evil.
If God is all powerful, then evil is not an adversary to him. If God is omniscient, nothing could threaten him nor anger him because he can never be surprised because he knows the script from beginning to end.
If God gives life to all, then he gives life to good as well as evil. God created Lucifer with purpose. God sent his son Jesus Christ with purpose. The tree of Good and Evil is not the Tree of Life. God created perfect souls. What is perfect cannot be tainted. .....

So, what is evil exactly?

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Fred
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Re: What is the LDS answer to the "Problem of Evil"?

Post by Fred »

There is opposition in all things. That is just how things are. The energy created by a magnet is due to opposition of the poles. The reason a battery can operate a flashlight is because of the opposition of polarity. You can not have up without down.

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