Garments are false

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Durzan
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Durzan »

Can we get some actual citations here to back up your assertions, one way or the other?

larsenb
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Re: Garments are false

Post by larsenb »

Durzan wrote: December 1st, 2023, 12:13 pm Can we get some actual citations here to back up your assertions, one way or the other?
Who are you addressing? My post was presented as anecdotal; but it is something that was significant enough to me when I heard/read it from Madsen, that I remembered it.

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Durzan
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Durzan »

I was addressing the general claims being made on the first page by both sides. Everyone should present their evidence, be it solid and clear evidence, ancidotal or circumstantial evidence, or any other form of evidence.

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Re: Garments are false

Post by larsenb »

Durzan wrote: December 2nd, 2023, 4:36 am I was addressing the general claims being made on the first page by both sides. Everyone should present their evidence, be it solid and clear evidence, ancidotal or circumstantial evidence, or any other form of evidence.
In terms of anecdotal evidence, reciting what one has heard someone say is testimonial evidence, in and of itself. Right?

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Mindfields
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Mindfields »

There are many dozens of quotes regarding "the garment". However there is not a single direct quote recorded from Joseph Smith where he speaks of anything related to the garment. When a person puts words in the mouth of another person it isn't evidence of anything. Especially if that person isn't alive to contradict or agree with the statement. It is hearsay at best. So unless someone has direct evidence e.g. a recorded revelation, a recorded statement while he was living, of garments being the creation of Joseph Smith then I think arguing back and forth using hearsay and remembrances as evidence is fruitless.

One thing I do know, a lack of disenable evidence hasn't stopped anyone from arguing indefensible positions. So if you must, have at it.

Grassland
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Grassland »

The garment is a symbol. Just like the cross is a symbol. If you rely on wearing a cross to protect you, you miss the point. Likewise, if you rely on wearing the garments to remind you and to protect you, you miss the point. I learned a lot about the garment from the lds endowment website. Here's a small portion of what it says about the garment (https://ldsendowment.blogspot.com/p/chapter-4.html)


"Chapter 4: Washing, Anointing, and Garment


There is nothing that is secret, nor is there anything that God hides from us. Truth is always here, in the present moment, and is obvious to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear what is right in front of them. It is our own carnal nature that keeps us from seeing the obvious. This is part of the meaning of Isaiah's condemning words, "Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not" (Isaiah 6:9).

In the Temple experience, preparatory to receiving the endowment, a person first receives the ordinances of washing and anointing. These are bestowed and are not literal, but are symbolic of something you receive from the Lord.

To receive the washing and anointing, one removes all of their street clothing and symbolically receives the ordinance as one that is 'naked' (though you wear a covering for the purposes of modesty). But the symbolism is this: Naked is how Adam and Eve found themselves after eating of the Tree of Knowledge in the garden and being naked is symbolic of a lack of knowledge. Being clothed represents being clothed in knowledge.

You begin your temple experience naked, or, put simply: without knowledge. We are there to be clothed with knowledge from God. Removing your street clothing is symbolic of removing worldly knowledge preparatory to being clothed in heavenly knowledge from God.

Washing and anointing are done separately from the main portion of the endowment for practical purposes but in reality should be considered a key part of it. If you pay close attention, you don't symbolically receive the garment, or any other clothing from the Lord, until well after the endowment ceremony begins. Therefore, at the beginning of the main endowment ceremony, the person is to be considered without the garment, or without knowledge. Like Adam and Eve, the person receiving the endowment is to be considered naked until the garment is made by and then placed upon them by Jehovah.

The temple garment is available by the church for viewing on the LDS newsroom website which contains a video linked here. On the garment are multiple markings, the most unique marking being the compass and the square.

See #7 in the facsimile above. The person-like figure (God) has their arm to the square with a compass above it. The bird-like figure (angel) is showing signs: one hand in a cupping shape symbolic of receiving instruction from the Lord, the other hand palm down indicating power to bless (in this case the Angel will go bless "Adam"). The small figure below is a depiction of a person ("Adam") with their arms raised high above their head indicating a prayer of full submission: broken heart and contrite spirit.

The compass and the square are two essential tools used in construction and they are as old as recorded history. To build a solid structure you must have exactness."

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Shawn Henry »

How do you have a 4-page thread with nobody mentioning that Joseph is on record telling the 12 and the High Council to take their garments off and burn them?

"Show it"! "Prove it"! "Spoon feed me my own history"!

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ransomme
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Re: Garments are false

Post by ransomme »

More pure speculation...

Whatever insight (good or bad, right or wrong) that Joseph had concerning garments, the temple ceremony (it seems sacrilege to call the instruction an endowment), etc. It does not appear to have come from any direct revelation. This is why we have no written record or teachings about them.

I think they came from seeing them in the Book of Joseph. It best explains everything

Joseph's journal for May 1843 was sorted after his death. It seems like the red brick endowment was a fabrication by BY et al.

BY et al. received and recorded his endowment in December 1845.

The Nauvoo temple was built after a similar pattern to the Kirkland Chapel. The Nauvoo temple was not built for the "endowment" ceremony. Remember, that Joseph received revelation about how to build it.

BY had Joseph's work concerning the Books of Abraham and Joseph.

BY invented an 8 hour ceremony from those documents not after going through an endowment in the red brick store, and then remembering it for 2.5 years before doing it again without writing it down.

The House of the Lord was the place to receive such revelations per section 124. The temple read never finished, especially not during Joseph's lifetime. So Joseph would not have received revelation concerning any temple ceremony.

For whatever reason Joseph made garments, he is recorded rejecting them to the HC.

Conclusion, everything currently related to the
LDS temple pretty much came from or was manipulated Brigham Young.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: April 13th, 2024, 3:28 am Conclusion, everything currently related to the
LDS temple pretty much came from or was manipulated Brigham Young.
Not saying you're wrong, but how would BY get every member of the 12 to go along with his lie and never mention that it didn't originate with JS?

How does he convince his enemies, Sydney Rigdon, Lyman Wight, and William Marks to go along a lie and turn against the prophet they love?

Peeps2.0
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Peeps2.0 »

Shannyoats wrote: January 27th, 2020, 9:33 am
....
There was never the ordinance of the garment given to JS. You find the canonized scripture or any journal of JS saying he was told to wear a garment or give the ordinance to the saints. There is only stories from others. He may have decided to wear the garment that in Freemasonry, they slice open the chest area on the shirt. Members of Freemason were supposed to put the shirt up in their homes for protection. He could have decided to wear it.
This might be a good place to tie in this info from another thread if Shannyoats is still around...
Peeps2.0 wrote: March 24th, 2024, 1:21 am
"I think the mystery of the ancient origin of the penalties may have been inadvertently solved by the OP, in the "Discourse on Abbatôn," by the "ritual"-penalty he endured for his rebellion. It is something that was very bad, but has been twisted into something that is good by those seeking for exaltation by going through the Endowment.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑ WAy too much is made of pre 1990 Endowment penalties....
....
One penalty is particularly interesting, because of a very early Christian writing known as the Discourse on Abbatôn [a Satan figure], which goes back to Apostolic times in Jerusalem. It was discovered in a chest preserved from the earliest days of the Church in the house of John Mark's mother. Timothy, the Bishop of Alexandria, while attending a conference at Jerusalem, persuaded the aged keeper of the old Church archives to show him the book. It tells how, when the council was held at the foundation of the world and Adam was chosen to preside over the project, Satan refused to recognize him, saying, "It is meet that this man Adam should come and worship me, for I existed before he came into being. And when my father [it is the Lord speaking to the apostles] saw his great pride and that his wickedness and evil doing had reached a fullness, he commanded the armies of heaven, saying remove the token [mark, document, authorization] which is in his right hand, remove his panoply [protective armor] and cast him down to earth, for his time has come." With him go all his followers, for "he is the head over them and their names are written in his hand." The angels were reluctant to demote so great a one "and they did not wish to remove the writing from his hand. And my father commanded them to bring a sharp sickle and cut him at breast level from shoulder to shoulder, on this side and on that, right through his body to the vertebra of his shoulders." This cost him a third of his strength and rendered him forever incapable of prevailing by force. Henceforth, he gains his ends by deception and trickery, which makes him all the more dangerous.[1]

Thanks, kirtland r.m., for the Discourse on Abbatôn. The "panoply" mentioned affirms this was likely the "annoited cherub that covereth" of Ezekiel chapter 28. Or Lucifer from Isaiah 14:14. Or the "one who was like unto God" of Abraham 3:24.

It gives another layer of meaning to the square and compass being placed "breast level," over the nipples. It sounds like he suffered the very same penalties by the Father before he was cast out to earth that the LDS Endowment has initiates make oaths to endure if they do not keep their covenants with "exactness" (the square) and "undeviation" (the compass). It's like Lucifer's "stigmata" is on the garments. From Wikipedia:

"Stigmata (Ancient Greek: στίγματα, plural of στίγμα stigma, 'mark, spot, brand'), in Catholicism, are bodily wounds, scars and pain which appear in locations corresponding to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus Christ: the hands, wrists, feet, near the heart, the head (from the crown of thorns), and back (from carrying the cross and scourging)..."

"Discourse on Abbatôn":
"...And my father commanded them to bring a sharp sickle and cut him at breast level from shoulder to shoulder, on this side and on that, right through his body to the vertebra of his shoulders." This cost him a third of his strength and rendered him forever incapable of prevailing by force. Henceforth, he gains his ends by deception and trickery, which makes him all the more dangerous."

Visualizing that, it sounds like he was cut in the "L" & "V" shapes of the square & compass to me.

And this cutting cost him a third of his power? Maybe that's why Lucifer only has an apron as a symbol of his "power and priesthoods" after being cast down to earth? For he is the one that tells Adam & Eve to wear an apron of fig leaves, which covers ~1/3 of the body...."[/quote]

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Silver Pie
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Silver Pie »

Grassland wrote: April 11th, 2024, 1:51 pmone hand in a cupping shape symbolic of receiving instruction from the Lord, the other hand palm down indicating power to bless (in this case the Angel will go bless "Adam").
Interesting. If this is the only meaning, then I was off. I thought the one was reaching out a hand like a beggar, seeking knowledge or seeking answers to prayers, and that the other was representative of Jesus casting devils and darkness under his feet, and overcoming the world.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Silver Pie »

Shawn Henry wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:43 am Joseph is on record telling the 12 and the High Council to take their garments off and burn them?
What record is this? The minutes of some meeting? Times and Seasons? Joseph's journal? Or was it something invented and "remembered" decades after Joseph's death? I'm seriously wanting a bona fide source (I have no inclination for or against Joseph and garments, but I am incredibly skeptical about anything purported to be from Joseph without something concrete to back it up - or at least as concrete as we can have at this point).

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Shawn Henry »

Silver Pie wrote: April 13th, 2024, 6:52 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: April 12th, 2024, 10:43 am Joseph is on record telling the 12 and the High Council to take their garments off and burn them?
What record is this? The minutes of some meeting? Times and Seasons? Joseph's journal? Or was it something invented and "remembered" decades after Joseph's death? I'm seriously wanting a bona fide source (I have no inclination for or against Joseph and garments, but I am incredibly skeptical about anything purported to be from Joseph without something concrete to back it up - or at least as concrete as we can have at this point).
I read about it in Quinn's Origins of Power, p. 146.

The orders to "destroy" their garments were given to the Quorum of the Anointed and sent in a letter to all the 12, the same letter requesting their immediate return to Nauvoo.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Silver Pie »

Shawn Henry wrote: April 13th, 2024, 7:16 pm I read about it in Quinn's Origins of Power, p. 146.

The orders to "destroy" their garments were given to the Quorum of the Anointed and sent in a letter to all the 12, the same letter requesting their immediate return to Nauvoo.
Okay, thanks. I haven't read that book, but I do trust Quinn as a historian..

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ransomme
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Re: Garments are false

Post by ransomme »

Shawn Henry wrote: April 13th, 2024, 1:26 pm
ransomme wrote: April 13th, 2024, 3:28 am Conclusion, everything currently related to the
LDS temple pretty much came from or was manipulated Brigham Young.
Not saying you're wrong, but how would BY get every member of the 12 to go along with his lie and never mention that it didn't originate with JS?

How does he convince his enemies, Sydney Rigdon, Lyman Wight, and William Marks to go along a lie and turn against the prophet they love?
So who was in the red brick ceremony?

When we're those names reported? When was the supposed meeting made public?

Why did BY et al., who supposedly receive their endowments do them all again and record dates of December1845 or later for their ordinance dates?

The list of names and writing about the supposed meeting came years after the supposed event. So who knew what when and had knowledge and time to react?

You can easily tell some of the stuff BY et al. made up because it contradicts stuff that Emma and the RLDS had that BY et al. had no knowledge about. Sometimes BY et al. contradicted themselves. Sometimes BY et al. kept y the documents that they crossed out or changed by adding notes. Sometimes they left dates and pages blank so they could add or revise things later.

I think that we have to forget everything that we've been told and look at all the information again.

It's mostly a pile of crap like this:

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: April 15th, 2024, 5:31 am
Shawn Henry wrote: April 13th, 2024, 1:26 pm
ransomme wrote: April 13th, 2024, 3:28 am Conclusion, everything currently related to the
LDS temple pretty much came from or was manipulated Brigham Young.
Not saying you're wrong, but how would BY get every member of the 12 to go along with his lie and never mention that it didn't originate with JS?

How does he convince his enemies, Sydney Rigdon, Lyman Wight, and William Marks to go along a lie and turn against the prophet they love?
So who was in the red brick ceremony?

When we're those names reported? When was the supposed meeting made public?

Why did BY et al., who supposedly receive their endowments do them all again and record dates of December1845 or later for their ordinance dates?

The list of names and writing about the supposed meeting came years after the supposed event. So who knew what when and had knowledge and time to react?

You can easily tell some of the stuff BY et al. made up because it contradicts stuff that Emma and the RLDS had that BY et al. had no knowledge about. Sometimes BY et al. contradicted themselves. Sometimes BY et al. kept y the documents that they crossed out or changed by adding notes. Sometimes they left dates and pages blank so they could add or revise things later.

I think that we have to forget everything that we've been told and look at all the information again.

It's mostly a pile of crap like this:
I totally agree the BY and company lied, but how is it that the enemies of BY also agree with the lie. William Marks' recollections are in his own writing, plus he lived to tell the tale. Sidney Rigdon (the spokesman to the seer) lived to tell the tale himself and even Lyman Wight leaving BY and going to Texas took all the secret works with him.

It could be that BY tricked these three honorable men by conducting these ceremonies without Joseph being present by simply telling them that Joseph wanted them introduced to the principles. It is much more likely that William Marks' testimony is right when he said Joseph came to him and explained that we have been deceived. This angel with a drawn sword was not from God.

Malachi 2
11 ¶ Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the Lord which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. (the god of secret works)

12 The Lord will cut off the man that doeth this, the master (Joseph Smith)and the scholar (Sidney Rigdon), out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the Lord of hosts.

13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

14 ¶ Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

In 2 Samuel 7 we read of a future Davidic heir who win sin against the Lord, be chastened by the Lord, and still retain the mercy of the Lord.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

This is the role of an intercessory prophet.

Grassland
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Grassland »

Silver Pie wrote: April 13th, 2024, 6:47 pm
Grassland wrote: April 11th, 2024, 1:51 pmone hand in a cupping shape symbolic of receiving instruction from the Lord, the other hand palm down indicating power to bless (in this case the Angel will go bless "Adam").
Interesting. If this is the only meaning, then I was off. I thought the one was reaching out a hand like a beggar, seeking knowledge or seeking answers to prayers, and that the other was representative of Jesus casting devils and darkness under his feet, and overcoming the world.
Probably multiple meanings so I'm sure it could mean that too.

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gradles21
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Re: Garments are false

Post by gradles21 »

The question I have is what is the protective quality about the garment? There's enough stories about people miraculously not being injured where the garment covers for me to know that there is some protective quality about wearing them.

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Wondering Wendy
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Wondering Wendy »

gradles21 wrote: April 24th, 2024, 6:29 am The question I have is what is the protective quality about the garment? There's enough stories about people miraculously not being injured where the garment covers for me to know that there is some protective quality about wearing them.
It is their faith in the garment, that it is of God, I believe. However, take note of those in scripture, such as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were wholly protected, even every hair on their head. The had faith in God, alone. We are to have faith in HIM, not some object or particle of clothing. That smacks of idolatry to me, IMHO.

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Re: Garments are false

Post by CuriousThinker »

Silver Pie wrote: April 13th, 2024, 6:47 pm
Grassland wrote: April 11th, 2024, 1:51 pmone hand in a cupping shape symbolic of receiving instruction from the Lord, the other hand palm down indicating power to bless (in this case the Angel will go bless "Adam").
Interesting. If this is the only meaning, then I was off. I thought the one was reaching out a hand like a beggar, seeking knowledge or seeking answers to prayers, and that the other was representative of Jesus casting devils and darkness under his feet, and overcoming the world.
I wasn't there for the penalties, but was told by someone that went that the cupping shape was symbolic of holding spilled bowels if you told people the signs and tokens, and the palm with the thumb out was used to mimic the throat cutting.

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Thinker
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Thinker »

Shannyoats wrote: December 8th, 2019, 11:31 pm…Why would we be commanded to wear them yet there is no command from God?

I agree, the temple doesn't seal you and the Spirit does it. I don't agree they people should have to make covenants to wear a garment and also go through a 2-hour endowment session with faults signs and symbols and false teaching in order to be able to be sealed to there fiancee.

I'm not trying to make people want to leave the church. I'm trying to have people see that they're relying on the arm of flesh and that the church has changed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that as members of the church we need to do something about it. The truth is right there in our own scripture and people just want to look past it and they don't want to believe that we can be led astray.
You make a lot of good points.
God looks on the heart, not on our clothing.

To pretend that clothing is God that can protect against evil - is itself evil - a lie that prevents us from working on getting closer to the real God. Mormonism is most active members’ god - they place it higher than integrity and God.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Silver Pie »

CuriousThinker wrote: April 24th, 2024, 6:51 am I wasn't there for the penalties, but was told by someone that went that the cupping shape was symbolic of holding spilled bowels if you told people the signs and tokens, and the palm with the thumb out was used to mimic the throat cutting.
I first went through in 1980 (and attended often before they changed the endowment ceremony), so I know about the penalties, and what the signs mean as far as focusing on killing yourself or someone else. I found them distasteful, as well as threatening.

When I look at the symbols, I try to figure out their meaning without the bloody murders/suicide attachments. For decades, they (edit: "they" meaning, the penalties) have meant no more to me than something BY added to keep people in line.

In the prayer circle, "the true order of prayer", the death threats are absent.
Last edited by Silver Pie on April 28th, 2024, 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Garments are false

Post by Silver Pie »

Wondering Wendy wrote: April 24th, 2024, 6:48 am It is their faith in the garment, that it is of God, I believe. However, take note of those in scripture, such as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were wholly protected, even every hair on their head. The had faith in God, alone. We are to have faith in HIM, not some object or particle of clothing. That smacks of idolatry to me, IMHO.
It makes sense that they'd have faith. I've heard the stories, too, with physical evidence that the parts covered were protected (I'm thinking of a man whose semi truck caught on fire. The fire was so hot, it melted or burned his shoes off. He showed us (he was talking at the funeral of one of my uncles, who was his best friend) the scar on his arm. It was so big that we in the congregation could see it, and it abruptly stopped at the sleeve of the garment. This had happened easily a half century + before he gave the talk.

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