Abraham Gileadi canceled by Deseret Book

[Primary Outcast]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

[madvin]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I wonder if Gileadi ever responded to Parry. I think Gileadi has and does add a great deal of understanding to Isaiah.

[Primary Outcast]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I wonder if Gileadi ever responded to Parry. I think Gileadi has and does add a great deal of understanding to Isaiah.

I agree, I've learned a lot from him as well, but I frequently disagree with how he interprets/applies Isaiah for our day. The Book of Mormon, D&C, and New Testament have so much commentary on it, or they use Isaiah in different contexts to add to our understanding, but it seems that Avraham rarely relies on these prophets. Instead (and I don't know everything he has said so I could be mistaken) it seems that he almost exclusively relies upon cross referencing to other Isaiah scriptures. I think that many key words that Isaiah uses actually come from the books of Moses, so I think cross referencing with Moses is equally important as anything else, yet I rarely see him go there.

He has probably forgotten more about Isaiah than I'll ever know, so I try not to criticize, but in my opinion it seems that his approach is a bit faulty and he makes Isaiah fit a narrative that sometimes it shouldn't. For example, he says that Isaiah 29 is not a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. In order to believe that you have to not believe Nephi or Joseph Smith or many other latter day prophets.

[logonbump]

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

Wow, that's quite a criticism!
Makes me question my blind devotion to all things Gileadi, if I have it.

I own his two first books. Think I'll focus on the Book of Mormon.

"The title chosen by the author-The Book of Isaiah: A New Translation with Interpretive Keys from the Book of Mormon- suggests incorporation of the Book of Mormon Isaiah, but it is nowhere to be found. A comparable notable oversight in Gileadi's work pertains to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible(JST)."
And,

"What proves puzzling, however, is why Gileadi fails to mention the Book of Mormon text of Isaiah in his twelve-page section on scriptural links. Several Book of Mormon chapters (see especially I Nephi 20-21, 2 Nephi 12-24), drawn from the brass plates of Laban, represent the earliest known extant chapters of Isaiah. The chapters predate by centuries other known texts of Isaiah, including the Masoretic Text, the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scroll editions of Isaiah, and the Aquila, Symmachus, Theodosian, Syriac, Targums, Vulgate, Old Latin, Sahidic, Coptic, Ethiopic, Arabic, and Annenian texts of the Bible. This fact in and of itself should lend heavy significance to all scholars from the schools of biblical criticism, for, were they to pay attention to the Isaianic chapters of the Book of Mormon, they would alter their historical critical views of the Hebrew Bible (Le., who authored Isaiah. etc.). In my opinion, the Isaianic chapters represented in the Book of Mormon are the most accurate and exact sections of Isaiah in existence. This opinion is fonned due to the fact that the Isaiah text of the Book of Mormon provides a number of elucidatory additions, deletions, and changes to the Isaiah text of the Hebrew Bible. It should be stated that the well-known expression of Joseph Smith that the Book of Mormon is "the most correct of any book on earth" is equally applicable to the Isaiah chapters found within the covers of the Book of Mormon."
And,

"While Gileadi should be extended great credit for his interest in the Hebrew language, his love of the writings of Isaiah, and his attentiveness to the scriptures, students of Isaiah would gain more by studying the Isaianic sections of the Book of Mormon, the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, and the King James Version than by studying Gileadi's new translation of Isaiah. "

[TheDuke]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I wonder if Gileadi ever responded to Parry. I think Gileadi has and does add a great deal of understanding to Isaiah.

I agree, I've learned a lot from him as well, but I frequently disagree with how he interprets/applies Isaiah for our day. The Book of Mormon, D&C, and New Testament have so much commentary on it, or they use Isaiah in different contexts to add to our understanding, but it seems that Avraham rarely relies on these prophets. Instead (and I don't know everything he has said so I could be mistaken) it seems that he almost exclusively relies upon cross referencing to other Isaiah scriptures. I think that many key words that Isaiah uses actually come from the books of Moses, so I think cross referencing with Moses is equally important as anything else, yet I rarely see him go there.

He has probably forgotten more about Isaiah than I'll ever know, so I try not to criticize, but in my opinion it seems that his approach is a bit faulty and he makes Isaiah fit a narrative that sometimes it shouldn't. For example, he says that Isaiah 29 is not a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. In order to believe that you have to not believe Nephi or Joseph Smith or many other latter day prophets.

where in BoM does it talk about Isaiah in our day? I see stuff from Nephi, but not sure it is our day, he seems to focus on the story of Jesus. I can only see Moroni and Mormon really talking of our day and they didn't quote Isaiah to my recollection.

[Primary Outcast]

I wonder if Gileadi ever responded to Parry. I think Gileadi has and does add a great deal of understanding to Isaiah.

I agree, I've learned a lot from him as well, but I frequently disagree with how he interprets/applies Isaiah for our day. The Book of Mormon, D&C, and New Testament have so much commentary on it, or they use Isaiah in different contexts to add to our understanding, but it seems that Avraham rarely relies on these prophets. Instead (and I don't know everything he has said so I could be mistaken) it seems that he almost exclusively relies upon cross referencing to other Isaiah scriptures. I think that many key words that Isaiah uses actually come from the books of Moses, so I think cross referencing with Moses is equally important as anything else, yet I rarely see him go there.

He has probably forgotten more about Isaiah than I'll ever know, so I try not to criticize, but in my opinion it seems that his approach is a bit faulty and he makes Isaiah fit a narrative that sometimes it shouldn't. For example, he says that Isaiah 29 is not a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. In order to believe that you have to not believe Nephi or Joseph Smith or many other latter day prophets.

where in BoM does it talk about Isaiah in our day? I see stuff from Nephi, but not sure it is our day, he seems to focus on the story of Jesus. I can only see Moroni and Mormon really talking of our day and they didn't quote Isaiah to my recollection.

I've summarized most of what I could find in the bom regarding the last days. There's lots of overlap with isaiah. For me I think it helps to take a 30,000 foot view, which is why I put this together.

This is the first time I'm sharing this because I've been meaning to take more time to double check my work, but I think it's mostly accurate so here it is:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... p=drivesdk

[Being There]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I don't doubt that at all - going from a TBM like yourself.

those like you, who want the watered down version of the gospel -
to fit with your " all is well in Zion" Mormon mindset.

"intellectuals" - oh ya, I forgot that one. (that excuse)
"These people - that think they're so smart - and that disagree with the church" -
"they must all be wrong then" lol.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership

wonder why. - why should he.
when the church has become corrupt and part of Babylon,
and has fallen into apostasy.

ya members are being led astray all right - by their church leaders

When are members like you going to wake up - to your awful situation -
and see the truth and that the church isn't all what you thought it was.

So many members are still asleep and think that "all is well in Zion", need to WAKE UP !
I think it's time to wake up from your deep sleep !
YES - WAKE UP ! TO YOUR AWFUL SITUATION .

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13

Ether 8

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you,
when ye shall see these things come among you
that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation.


21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth,
all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28

[MikeMaillet]

where in BoM does it talk about Isaiah in our day? I see stuff from Nephi, but not sure it is our day, he seems to focus on the story of Jesus. I can only see Moroni and Mormon really talking of our day and they didn't quote Isaiah to my recollection.

Check out 3 Nephi 23:

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.
2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.
3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.
4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.
5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things.

The Book of Mormon does not mention the presence of Gentiles that were living concurrently with the Nephites, Lamanites and other people that were descendants of the Jaredites. It is only in the last few hundred years that the Gentiles have occupied the Promised Land and now the words of Isaiah must also be studied by the Gentiles, the purveyors of the Book of Mormon, us. Verse 3 emphasizes that everything that Isaiah has prophesied will happen again.

Isaiah 44:7

7 Who predicts what happens as do I,
and is the equal of me
in appointing a people from of old as types,
foretelling things to come?

Also, 2 Nephi covers quite a bit of Isaiah.

Mike

[Primary Outcast]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I don't doubt that at all - going from a TBM like yourself.

those like you, who want the watered down version of the gospel -
to fit with your " all is well in Zion" Mormon mindset.

"intellectuals" - oh ya, I forgot that one. (that excuse)
"These people - that think they're so smart - and that disagree with the church" -
"they must all be wrong then" lol.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership

wonder why. - why should he.
when the church has become corrupt and part of Babylon,
and has fallen into apostasy.

ya members are being led astray all right - by their church leaders

When are members like you going to wake up - to your awful situation -
and see the truth and that the church isn't all what you thought it was.

So many members are still asleep and think that "all is well in Zion", need to WAKE UP !
I think it's time to wake up from your deep sleep !
YES - WAKE UP ! TO YOUR AWFUL SITUATION .

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13

Ether 8

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you,
when ye shall see these things come among you
that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation.


21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth,
all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28

You seem unwell. Chill my brother.
You obviously don't follow the work I've been doing.

[Primary Outcast]

where in BoM does it talk about Isaiah in our day? I see stuff from Nephi, but not sure it is our day, he seems to focus on the story of Jesus. I can only see Moroni and Mormon really talking of our day and they didn't quote Isaiah to my recollection.

Check out 3 Nephi 23:

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.
2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.
3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.
4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.
5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things.

The Book of Mormon does not mention the presence of Gentiles that were living concurrently with the Nephites, Lamanites and other people that were descendants of the Jaredites. It is only in the last few hundred years that the Gentiles have occupied the Promised Land and now the words of Isaiah must also be studied by the Gentiles, the purveyors of the Book of Mormon, us. Verse 3 emphasizes that everything that Isaiah has prophesied will happen again.

Isaiah 44:7

7 Who predicts what happens as do I,
and is the equal of me
in appointing a people from of old as types,
foretelling things to come?

Also, 2 Nephi covers quite a bit of Isaiah.

Mike

Exactly, so 3 Ne 22 is Christ quoting isa 54, and 3 Ne 23 is his commentary about the chapter, applying it to the last days. Has anyone ever seen Gileadi reference 3 Ne 23 to help explain Isaiah 54?

[MikeMaillet]

where in BoM does it talk about Isaiah in our day? I see stuff from Nephi, but not sure it is our day, he seems to focus on the story of Jesus. I can only see Moroni and Mormon really talking of our day and they didn't quote Isaiah to my recollection.

Check out 3 Nephi 23:

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.
2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.
3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.
4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.
5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things.

The Book of Mormon does not mention the presence of Gentiles that were living concurrently with the Nephites, Lamanites and other people that were descendants of the Jaredites. It is only in the last few hundred years that the Gentiles have occupied the Promised Land and now the words of Isaiah must also be studied by the Gentiles, the purveyors of the Book of Mormon, us. Verse 3 emphasizes that everything that Isaiah has prophesied will happen again.

Isaiah 44:7

7 Who predicts what happens as do I,
and is the equal of me
in appointing a people from of old as types,
foretelling things to come?

Also, 2 Nephi covers quite a bit of Isaiah.

Mike

Exactly, so 3 Ne 22 is Christ quoting isa 54, and 3 Ne 23 is his commentary about the chapter, applying it to the last days. Has anyone ever seen Gileadi reference 3 Ne 23 to help explain Isaiah 54?

Not sure. Gileadi seems to ignore the Book of Mormon when speaking to non-Mormons and I have not read many of his commentaries, preferring to let the Spirit guide.

Mike

[Being There]

isn't it funny -
how a man can spend his whole life dedicated to the study of Isaiah -
with no motives but to find and show the true and correct translation of it,
and yet so many - seem to just write that off - and care more about their 2 cents worth.

I'm convinced, that most that question Gileadi, or try to belittle or discredit him,
do so, simply because of the truth that he reveals - or rather Isaiah speaks of -
that of course being - condemning The Drunkards of Ephraim (church leaders) Isa 28
and - the church falling into apostasy - which is found in the very first chapter in Isaiah.*
(seems kinda significant doesn't it - the very first thing that Isaiah has to say )
* and so many TBM - could never accept that now could they - that Isaiah would be speaking
about their LDS church and Corporation, that has become corrupt and fallen onto apostasy.

[Being There]

Abraham says he doesn't know why his books were cancelled and then he speculates about anti Mormons doing it, but from what I've seen the intellectuals that disagree with the church love Abraham. I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership. I hear a lot about people being lead astray and the end time servant will come to set things right.

Also, here's a criticism of his translation that is worth considering. https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:s ... 1545531652

I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I don't doubt that at all - going from a TBM like yourself.

those like you, who want the watered down version of the gospel -
to fit with your " all is well in Zion" Mormon mindset.

"intellectuals" - oh ya, I forgot that one. (that excuse)
"These people - that think they're so smart - and that disagree with the church" -
"they must all be wrong then" lol.

I've never seen him say one word in support of current church leadership

wonder why. - why should he.
when the church has become corrupt and part of Babylon,
and has fallen into apostasy.

ya members are being led astray all right - by their church leaders

When are members like you going to wake up - to your awful situation -
and see the truth and that the church isn't all what you thought it was.

So many members are still asleep and think that "all is well in Zion", need to WAKE UP !
I think it's time to wake up from your deep sleep !
YES - WAKE UP ! TO YOUR AWFUL SITUATION .

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13

Ether 8

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you,
when ye shall see these things come among you
that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation.


21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth,
all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28

You seem unwell. Chill my brother.
You obviously don't follow the work I've been doing.

unwell ? lol. that's a good one.

ya with TBM - whenever you bring the church into question -
they say things like - " You seem unwell".

"the work I've been doing" ?
and what kind of work would that be ?

[Primary Outcast]

I don't doubt that at all - going from a TBM like yourself.

those like you, who want the watered down version of the gospel -
to fit with your " all is well in Zion" Mormon mindset.

"intellectuals" - oh ya, I forgot that one. (that excuse)
"These people - that think they're so smart - and that disagree with the church" -
"they must all be wrong then" lol.


wonder why. - why should he.
when the church has become corrupt and part of Babylon,
and has fallen into apostasy.

ya members are being led astray all right - by their church leaders

When are members like you going to wake up - to your awful situation -
and see the truth and that the church isn't all what you thought it was.

So many members are still asleep and think that "all is well in Zion", need to WAKE UP !
I think it's time to wake up from your deep sleep !
YES - WAKE UP ! TO YOUR AWFUL SITUATION .

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13

Ether 8

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you,
when ye shall see these things come among you
that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation.


21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth,
all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28

You seem unwell. Chill my brother.
You obviously don't follow the work I've been doing.

unwell ? lol. that's a good one.

ya with TBM - whenever you bring the church into question -
they say things like - " You seem unwell".

"the work I've been doing" ?
and what kind of work would that be ?

I'm not sure, unwell, unhinged, maybe at least distracted. Something along those lines. I'd say get over it. Let's try to stay on topic. I've been off the forum for at least 6 months, every topic is instantly rerouted to the evil Q15 and polygamy. It's annoying. Same tired arguments over and over.
There isn't any reason to come on here anymore.

[Being There]

You seem unwell. Chill my brother.
You obviously don't follow the work I've been doing.

unwell ? lol. that's a good one.

ya with TBM - whenever you bring the church into question -
they say things like - " You seem unwell".

"the work I've been doing" ?
and what kind of work would that be ?

I'm not sure, unwell, unhinged, maybe at least distracted. Something along those lines. I'd say get over it. Let's try to stay on topic. I've been off the forum for at least 6 months, every topic is instantly rerouted to the evil Q15 and polygamy. It's annoying. Same tired arguments over and over.
There isn't any reason to come on here anymore.

well ya, there IS no reason, if you're not looking for the real truth, *
(and for some TBM, the truth CAN be annoying, because it challenges what they want to believe)
* and just want to continue with coming up with any and every excuse possible
to try to defend their church leaders, and what they want to believe.

"stay on topic"
okay, the topic is Avraham Gileadi - who I will defend at any cost -
which is what I've been doing - talking about him and the truth he brings to light in Isaiah -
about the church being in apostasy - among many other things.

You seem to want to defend the church - and sing the same old argument - of "all is well in Zion";
like you have been doing for the years that I've seen you in this forum.
While I, on the other hand, want to show members the truth of what the scriptures are really saying -
and more specifically, what Isaiah is saying about the church, and how it has gone astray
and fallen into apostasy -
which is what I've been doing in this forum for the past 7 years now.

sorry, but we both can give our opinion,
so go ahead and give yours.
but I can also give mine - and you know what that will be.

[Peeps2.0]

"stay on topic"
okay, the topic is Avraham Gileadi - who I will defend at any cost -
which is what I've been doing - talking about him and the truth he brings to light in Isaiah -
about the church being in apostasy - among many other things.

You seem to want to defend the church - and sing the same old argument - of "all is well in Zion";
like you have been doing for the years that I've seen you in this forum.
While I, on the other hand, want to show members the truth of what the scriptures are really saying -
and more specifically, what Isaiah is saying about the church, and how it has gone astray
and fallen into apostasy -
which is what I've been doing in this forum for the past 7 years now.

sorry, but we both can give our opinion,
so go ahead and give yours.
but I can also give mine - and you know what that will be.

Isaiah was pointing to the Messiah, the Messiah that the Jews missed, Jesus Christ. He is the One you should defend at "any cost" because He came and died on a cruel cross on your behalf to pay for your sins, as the "suffering Servant" from the Davidic line, and the same person Isaiah chapter 53 speaks of. Gileadi is not your savior, Jesus Christ is. He is the Light Isaiah prophecied of.


What Gileadi was learning from the Jewish rabbis in Israel was darkness-- how to obscure Isaiah's words, to make the Messiah to become two persons, since they did/do not accept Jesus Christ, but they all wanted Barabbas instead.

[Being There]

"stay on topic"
okay, the topic is Avraham Gileadi - who I will defend at any cost -
which is what I've been doing - talking about him and the truth he brings to light in Isaiah -
about the church being in apostasy - among many other things.

You seem to want to defend the church - and sing the same old argument - of "all is well in Zion";
like you have been doing for the years that I've seen you in this forum.
While I, on the other hand, want to show members the truth of what the scriptures are really saying -
and more specifically, what Isaiah is saying about the church, and how it has gone astray
and fallen into apostasy -
which is what I've been doing in this forum for the past 7 years now.

sorry, but we both can give our opinion,
so go ahead and give yours.
but I can also give mine - and you know what that will be.

Isaiah was pointing to the Messiah, the Messiah that the Jews missed, Jesus Christ. He is the One you should defend at "any cost" because He came and died on a cruel cross on your behalf to pay for your sins, as the "suffering Servant" from the Davidic line, and the same person Isaiah chapter 53 speaks of. Gileadi is not your savior, Jesus Christ is. He is the Light Isaiah prophecied of.


What Gileadi was learning from the Jewish rabbis in Israel was darkness-- how to obscure Isaiah's words, to make the Messiah to become two persons, since they did/do not accept Jesus Christ, but they all wanted Barabbas instead.

your story makes a nice theory, and plays on sympathy, but is not correct.

Jesus Christ is not a servant, and will have His end-time servant perform
everything for Him -
Just as satan has his servant - that will do his work, the anti- christ,
so does Christ.
Do you even read the scriptures ?
Do you think that Christ is going to lower Himself,
and come and perform the mission of gathering Israel ? of course not - that's what the DS does.


and to repeat myself - as I've found - I frequently have to do -

the verses in Isaiah, are about the Lord's Davidic end-time servant.

Jesus Christ - Gods do not come to Earth to fulfill servants missions.

How can JC or JS be the marred servant in the Lord's hand - in the scripture below
when the lord says "therefore they shall not hurt him" ?
Joseph Smith was killed.


"The Davidic servant IS a servant of Jesus Christ, and really is the central theme in Isaiah.
Only you have to really search diligently - as Christ gave us a commandment to do so,
and read the most correct translation (which is Gileadi's) - to help understand.
Because his mission is probably more like Christ's than any other prophet,
when most read Isaiah - in some places - they assume it is Christ being referred to- when it's actually
the servant.

Why would the church even want to acknowledge an end-time servant - when he will be their downfall -
exposing them for what they really are - The Drunkards of Ephraim - which the Lord will hurl to the ground.
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... d#p1210315

If there is no end-time servant - who then is The One Mighty and Strong ?
It's the Davidic servant.

The marred servant - Davidic servant is NOT Christ neither Joseph Smith.

To me, this is ridiculous - thinking that it's Christ.
All one needs to do is read this to see that it cannot be Christ or JS.
3 Nephi 21
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand
therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

so by reading this - HOW CAN the marred servant - being Christ - be in HIS OWN HAND ?

Also this can't be Joseph Smith either, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand;
therefore they shall not hurt him",
Joseph Smith was killed.
"Some of thought this person is JS, who will somehow be reincarnated and return to lead the people to Zion.
The dead do not return to minister in the flesh. JS finished his ministry and left.
He would have to be resurrected, and Celestial beings cannot dwell on this Telestial Earth."

ALSO
Do you really think that, the son - Jesus Christ being God the Father,
would actually lower Himself - being God, and would come down to Earth again and fulfill a mission of a servant !
I don't think so.

as one person put it -
"His sitting on the throne of David, would be like the governor of Utah
becoming the mayor of Loa.

"Because the servant is a forerunner to Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth,
the roles of Jehovah and his servant are closely intertwined."

this end time servant's mission
will be more like Christ's than any other, he will personify Christ, and it's because of this,
and the scriptures that talk about him, that many have taken it to mean Christ, when it's really His servant.


ALSO

does this really sound like this person would be Jesus Christ
NO - it does not.


The Lord HAS been preparing him, but has not revealed him;
but he may not even know who he is yet until the Lord empowers him;
and "when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,
thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

you may want to take a look at this translation
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/ ... ch_49.html

http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary

Isaiah 49
Jehovah empowers his servant after he is rejected to restore his people and to implement their new exodus.

1 Hear me, O isles; listen, you distant peoples:Jehovah called me before I was in the belly;before I was in my mother’s womb,he mentioned me by name.

Jehovah having spoken of his servant (cf. Isaiah 41:1-3, 25-27; 42:1-7; 44:26-28; 45:1-6, 13; 46:11-13; 48:14-15), the servant speaks of himself, asserting Jehovah foreordained him before his mother conceived him. Jehovah’s “naming” him and “calling” him to an international mission—to “the isles” and “distant people”—signify ascent to the seraph category. Jehovah had likewise called Jeremiah to an international mission before his birth: “Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came out of the womb, I sanctified you. I ordained you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5, 10).

2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me. He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him.
Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission:
“You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5).
He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11).
The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3).

3 He said to me, You are my servant,Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 I had thought, I have labored in vain,I have spent my strength for nothing and to no purpose!
Yet my cause rested with Jehovah,my recompense with my God.

Jehovah’s calling his servant “Israel” parallels Jehovah’s calling his people’s ancestor Jacob by his new name Israel after Jacob had proven loyal to him (Genesis 32:28). The servant’s receiving a new name, in other words—which the name Israel here symbolizes—attests to his ascent to a higher spiritual level after he has proven loyal to Jehovah. It also implies that he—Jehovah’s individual servant—serves as a surrogate of and as an exemplar to Jehovah’s collective servant; that is, to Jehovah’s people in the Jacob/Israel category to whom Jehovah sends him (vv 5-9; Isaiah 41:27; 42:6-7; 48:16).

One way the servant proves loyal is to continue laboring in Jehovah’s cause even in the face of few positive results. By all appearances, he at first spends a great deal of energy “in vain” and “for nothing and to no purpose.” And yet, desiring to serve Jehovah even under the most adversarial conditions (v 7; Isaiah 50:6-9; 52:13-14), he submits to Jehovah’s will:

“My Lord Jehovah has endowed me with a learned tongue, that I may know how to preach to those grown weary a word to wake them up” (Isaiah 50:4).
Before ascending to Isaiah’s seraph level, he descends through trials that consume him.

5 For now Jehovah has said—he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him,Israel having been gathered to him; for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah when my God became my strength—

6 he said: It is too small thing for you to be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore those preserved of Israel.
I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations, that my salvation may be to the end of the earth.

A reversal of circumstances takes place for Jehovah’s servant when the trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level, thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim) “to the end of the earth.” From there, Jehovah’s people are to return (Isaiah 41:8-9; 43:5-6), so that all who desire it might participate in Jehovah’s salvation and prepare for Jehovah’s coming as salvation (Isaiah 52:7; 62:11).

Jehovah “appoints” his servant when he “wins honor” in Jehovah’s eyes by proving faithful through trials (v 4), at which time his God becomes his “strength.”
The servant’s physical exploits that follow—subduing nations, releasing captives, leading the new exodus, and rebuilding ruins (Isaiah 9:2-5; 11:10-16; 41:2-3, 25; 45:1-3, 13; 48:14; 61:1-4)—should thus be seen in the context of an ascent phase of divine empowerment that follows his descent phase through afflictions as he fulfills his role of proxy savior to the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant.

7 Thus says Jehovah,the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel,to him who is despised as a person,who is abhorred by his nation,a servant to those in authority:Kings shall rise up when they see you, princes shall prostrate themselves,because Jehovah keeps faith with you,because the Holy One of Israel has chosen you.

Although Jehovah’s servant is at first “despised as a person” and “abhorred by his nation” as his own reject him,
Jehovah exalts him in the eyes of those who see him as a threat to their authority.
Jehovah rewards his servant’s faithfulness toward him in the face of opposition with his own acts of faithfulness toward his servant.
Henceforth, as the servant begins the temporal phase of Jacob/Israel’s restoration, he becomes prominent worldwide (Isaiah 11:10-12; 52:15; 55:5). Kings and princes now honor him who was dishonored and assist in the restoration of Jehovah’s people (vv 22-23; Isaiah 60:3-11).

[Peeps2.0]

....
If there is no end-time servant - who then is The One Mighty and Strong ?
It's the Davidic servant.

The marred servant - Davidic servant is NOT Christ neither Joseph Smith.

To me, this is ridiculous - thinking that it's Christ.

Whom do you say Christ is/was then? Do you even believe in the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) as recorded in the Bible at all? Jews (like Gileadi perhaps) do not accept the New Testament as scripture, their scripture is the "TaNaK." From "New World Encyclopedia:"

"TaNaK (Hebrew: תנ״ך), or Tanakh, is an acronym for the Hebrew Bible consisting of the initial Hebrew letters (T + N + K) of each of the text's three major parts. Since the ancient Hebrew langauge had no clear vowels, subsequent vowel sounds were added to the consonants resulting in the word TaNaK. The major portions of the Hebrew Bible represented by these three letters are:

Torah (תורה) meaning "Instruction" or "Law." Also called the Chumash חומש meaning: "The five"; "The five books of Moses." Also called the "Pentateuch." The Torah is often referred to as the law of the Jewish people.
Nevi'im (נביאים) meaning "Prophets." This term is associated with anything to do with the prophets.
Ketuvim (כתובים) meaning "Writings." This part of the Tanakh is further separated into different sections including a group of history books, wisdom books, poetry books and psalms."

It's pretty much what us "Gentiles" refer to as the Old Testament.

Are you planning on becoming a "Noahide" like Lee Baker did? Because you seem to be rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior. Which would be tragic, as Gileadi cannot save you, nor any other man, save the Son of Man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ--- Emmanuel, that Isaiah prophecied of in chapter 7, verse 14, and Matthew proclaimed did come, in chapter 1, verse 23.

Because without the Bible, the Book of Mormon would not matter, as it is not a stand alone book like the Bible is. Without the New Testament, the Atonement would have not taken place. The Old Testament is Jesus Christ concealed, the New Testament is Jesus Christ revealed.

It's all about a Messiah, to the Jews, and the Christians. Christians believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The Jews look for someone else. Anyone else, but Him. Because they crucified their Messiah. Acts 2:29-41 told them how to deal with this:

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

That was 3,000 Jews who's descendants today would now be considered "Gentiles," along with the "Ephraimites," aka the drunkards of Ephraim, & any of the other "lost tribes". Ironically, the Jews that kept their identity of being Jewish, was based only on them rejecting their Jewish Messiah. Those were the ones scattered all over the world by the Romans in 70 AD. They remained scattered and without a homeland for ~2000 yrs, until 1948, when the modern state of Israel was born.

All one needs to do is read this to see that it cannot be Christ or JS.
3 Nephi 21
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand
therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

so by reading this - HOW CAN the marred servant - being Christ - be in HIS OWN HAND ?

Also this can't be Joseph Smith either, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand;
therefore they shall not hurt him",
Joseph Smith was killed.
"Some of thought this person is JS, who will somehow be reincarnated and return to lead the people to Zion.
The dead do not return to minister in the flesh. JS finished his ministry and left.
He would have to be resurrected, and Celestial beings cannot dwell on this Telestial Earth."

Where/whom are you getting all these "rules" from? Are you saying the Celestial Creator cannot dwell among His own terrestrial creations? Someone seems to be trying to boss the BOSS around. Like the wisdom of men trying to put God in a box. Like what the Jews did to Jesus Christ.

ALSO
Do you really think that, the son - Jesus Christ being God the Father,
would actually lower Himself - being God, and would come down to Earth again and fulfill a mission of a servant !
I don't think so.

as one person put it -
"His sitting on the throne of David, would be like the governor of Utah
becoming the mayor of Loa.

"Because the servant is a forerunner to Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth,
the roles of Jehovah and his servant are closely intertwined."

this end time servant's mission
will be more like Christ's than any other, he will personify Christ, and it's because of this,
and the scriptures that talk about him, that many have taken it to mean Christ, when it's really His servant.


ALSO

does this really sound like this person would be Jesus Christ
NO - it does not.

Who is defining the characteristics of God/Jesus Christ? It sounds much like the Jewish arguments of why Jesus Christ could not be their Messiah. Because they say that God cannot become man. Man cannot become God, but God can certainly become a man. It would take humility. Like Jesus Christ had. Turn the other cheek. Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do type of humility. That's why they rejected Him. Just as Isaiah prophecied they would.

The Lord HAS been preparing him, but has not revealed him;
but he may not even know who he is yet until the Lord empowers him;
and "when my God became my strength— " Isaiah 49:5
after the "trials he endures have served their purpose to purify, perfect, and sanctify him to a higher spiritual level,
thereby qualifying him for a new commission.
Jacob/Israel’s restoration, to which task he was foreordained (v 1), Jehovah augments with a mission
to serve as a light to the “nations” or “Gentiles”

you may want to take a look at this translation
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/ ... ch_49.html

http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary....

Again, no thanks to Gileadi's interpretations of Isaiah. The Old Testament is Jesus Christ concealed, the New Testament is Jesus Christ revealed.

....Jehovah’s “naming” him and “calling” him to an international mission—to “the isles” and “distant people”—signify ascent to the seraph category....

Seraph category? As in seraphim?

"SERAPH (Heb. שָׂרָף, saraf), the term seraph, whose etymology is obscure, appears in the Bible in two distinct contexts. It appears in the singular and plural as the name of a species of serpent (Num. 21:6; Deut. 8:15; Isa. 14:29; 30:6). In Numbers 21 the Lord sends "seraph-snakes" to punish the complaining Israelites (when the people complain the Lord tells Moses to make a "seraph" and place it on a standard, to serve as a homeopathic apotropaic device, whereupon Moses makes a copper *serpent (snake, 21:9)). In Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6, the word saraf is qualified by the word meʿofef, "flying," so that it appears that the seraph-snake is a purely legendary species.--

The jewishencyclopedia.com says this:

"...The seraphim are frequently mentioned in the Book of Enoch (xx. 7, lxi. 10, lxxi. 7), where they are designated as δράκονες ("serpents"), and are always mentioned, in conjunction with the cherubim, as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to God. In Rev. iv. 6-8 four animals are pictured as standing near the throne of God; each has six wings, and, as in Isaiah, they sing the "Trisagion."

Meaning.
The passages cited furnish conclusive evidence against the idea, popular for a time, that the seraphim belong to the same category as angels. They have nothing whatever to do with the "messengers of God"; in the Jewish conception the two have always been distinguished. Dan. x. 13, the Book of Tobit, and other sources, afford information concerning a series of "chief" angels, but allusions to the seraphim are entirely lacking, and an etymological connection of the name "seraf" with the Arabic "sharif" (to be exalted or distinguished) is equally valueless.

On the other hand, there is a striking similarity between the seraphim and cherubim. Both are winged creatures, half human, half animal; both stand near the throne of God, and appear as its guardians; and, as has already been stated, they are always mentioned together in the Book of Enoch. This, however, by no means proves that the origin of the two was the same; it only shows that in later Jewish conception, as well as in the conception of the contemporaries of Isaiah, these two classes of heavenly beings were closely related..."

Sounds like some of the seraphim may have been in some of the rebellious group in heaven. Maybe like the seraph/nachash/serpent that deceived Eve.

The Kabbalistic Jews believe in a "holy serpent" to be their Messiah. He is currently in the abyss, and must be summoned by mankind. They also have other imaginative notions about their Messiah, since He can't possibly be Jesus Christ, whom they crucified. That's why their Messiah must be two individuals. Or maybe the Messiah is just a "force," and not a person at all. Anyone but the right One, Jesus Christ.

Yet Jesus Christ being lifted up on the cross was the fulfillment of the type and shadow of Moses lifting up the brazen serpent in the wilderness. The Book of Mormon states it several times, Jesus Christ was of this "seraph category."

1 Nephi 17:41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."[/i]

And John 3 says:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I leave you with this from Matthew chapter 22 to ponder on, that is, if you can take a break from Gileadi's interpretations for a moment:

41 "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

[Being There]

sorry but this is a complete waste of time for me.
Your replies are not on topic or addressing what we've been talking about at all;
and say things like "Whom do you say Christ is/was then? ",
and ridiculous things like "as Gileadi cannot save you",
and, "you seem to be rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior";
like trying to imply that I don't even believe in Jesus Christ,
when the fact is, that over the years, I've posted more about Jesus and to focus on Him,
then anyone has here in this forum - or at least as much.

I hope you find the truth you are looking for - but I guess it looks like you already have -
and so have have I, so I think I'm through here.

and btw I hold absolutely nothing against you,
and hope we both are open minded enough - to find and accept what the truth really is.