Random thoughts...

[Thinker]

So much pride!
Why?

“Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity.

[Cruiserdude]

“Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity.

Now that is a good one.

[Thinker]

Another random thought about dogma in the church, especially in such a cultish church. And is the way I see Mormonism different than most people in the world see it?

Apparently others had related thoughts…

“As a nevermo I’m actually quite fond of Mormons. When I was taking the lessons the Mormons I met were all quite pleasant. Now I just think they are brainwashed, in a Stepford Wives kind of way. I do not see them as genuine, almost as if they are being remotely controlled.

You want to know what nevermos think of Mormons...Here's the secret, they don't think about Mormons at all. Only .21% of the World's population are members and only about 30% of that miniscule number is even active. So...billions of people live and die knowing and caring ZERO about Mormons

I do think that Mormons are respectable in some regards. Other posters have compared the church to a country club and what type of people are in a country club? Upper middle class types and those types of people are usually respectable. Someone may look at their Mormon neighbor and think that he's dorky, gullible and spends way too much time at church but he has an MBA/JD/MD, earns a great salary, drives a Mercedes, lives in a big house and goes on fancy vacations. Money and status can offset weirdness to a degree.

^ (Reply): But what about all the stories of Mormons cheating other members financially and all the affinity fraud, including MLMs? Those are part of Mormon culture, too, at least in high-density areas.

I’m nevermo, but I grew up in a very evangelical Mennonite part of the country. The word “Mormon” was akin to a swear word, as the people here found Mormonism so offensive. The belief was the Book of Mormon was blasphemy and Mormonism was an offence to God. There was a fear of Mormonism instilled. Which is ironic, because Mennonites and Mormons are more similar than they are different, two sides of the same coin. Hence why lots of secular people here got Mormons and Mennonites mixed up all the time lol.

I find most cult members are “nice”, but it’s inauthentic and disingenuous. Talking to very indoctrinated Mormon or Mennonite woman is like talking to a Barbie doll. It’s icky. I guess that’s why Mormon women use so much tranquilizers. They don’t have a voice, so no wonder they’re depressed.”

I imagine many see Mormons as nice, service-oriented people, even if a bit brainwashed.

[Original_Intent]

Another random thought about dogma in the church, especially in such a cultish church. And is the way I see Mormonism different than most people in the world see it?

Apparently others had related thoughts…

“As a nevermo I’m actually quite fond of Mormons. When I was taking the lessons the Mormons I met were all quite pleasant. Now I just think they are brainwashed, in a Stepford Wives kind of way. I do not see them as genuine, almost as if they are being remotely controlled.

You want to know what nevermos think of Mormons...Here's the secret, they don't think about Mormons at all. Only .21% of the World's population are members and only about 30% of that miniscule number is even active. So...billions of people live and die knowing and caring ZERO about Mormons

I do think that Mormons are respectable in some regards. Other posters have compared the church to a country club and what type of people are in a country club? Upper middle class types and those types of people are usually respectable. Someone may look at their Mormon neighbor and think that he's dorky, gullible and spends way too much time at church but he has an MBA/JD/MD, earns a great salary, drives a Mercedes, lives in a big house and goes on fancy vacations. Money and status can offset weirdness to a degree.

^ (Reply): But what about all the stories of Mormons cheating other members financially and all the affinity fraud, including MLMs? Those are part of Mormon culture, too, at least in high-density areas.

I’m nevermo, but I grew up in a very evangelical Mennonite part of the country. The word “Mormon” was akin to a swear word, as the people here found Mormonism so offensive. The belief was the Book of Mormon was blasphemy and Mormonism was an offence to God. There was a fear of Mormonism instilled. Which is ironic, because Mennonites and Mormons are more similar than they are different, two sides of the same coin. Hence why lots of secular people here got Mormons and Mennonites mixed up all the time lol.

I find most cult members are “nice”, but it’s inauthentic and disingenuous. Talking to very indoctrinated Mormon or Mennonite woman is like talking to a Barbie doll. It’s icky. I guess that’s why Mormon women use so much tranquilizers. They don’t have a voice, so no wonder they’re depressed.”

I imagine many see Mormons as nice, service-oriented people, even if a bit brainwashed.

Dogma is the yang - nothing wrong with it, but LDS need a little less "A bible! A bible!" and a little more asking, seeking, knocking imnsho.

[InfoWarrior82]

Dogma is the yang

And Catma is the yin

[Original_Intent]

Dogma is the yang

And Catma is the yin

That would be Catpa, actually

[Thinker]

Please pardon the cussing… ( cussing, which I just learned activates the part of the brain when animals are warning others of danger )



Unfortunately, 10 years later, he ate his words falling for face masks etc…

[Thinker]

Another random thought about dogma in the church, especially in such a cultish church. And is the way I see Mormonism different than most people in the world see it?

Apparently others had related thoughts…

“As a nevermo I’m actually quite fond of Mormons. When I was taking the lessons the Mormons I met were all quite pleasant. Now I just think they are brainwashed, in a Stepford Wives kind of way. I do not see them as genuine, almost as if they are being remotely controlled.

You want to know what nevermos think of Mormons...Here's the secret, they don't think about Mormons at all. Only .21% of the World's population are members and only about 30% of that miniscule number is even active. So...billions of people live and die knowing and caring ZERO about Mormons

I do think that Mormons are respectable in some regards. Other posters have compared the church to a country club and what type of people are in a country club? Upper middle class types and those types of people are usually respectable. Someone may look at their Mormon neighbor and think that he's dorky, gullible and spends way too much time at church but he has an MBA/JD/MD, earns a great salary, drives a Mercedes, lives in a big house and goes on fancy vacations. Money and status can offset weirdness to a degree.

^ (Reply): But what about all the stories of Mormons cheating other members financially and all the affinity fraud, including MLMs? Those are part of Mormon culture, too, at least in high-density areas.

I’m nevermo, but I grew up in a very evangelical Mennonite part of the country. The word “Mormon” was akin to a swear word, as the people here found Mormonism so offensive. The belief was the Book of Mormon was blasphemy and Mormonism was an offence to God. There was a fear of Mormonism instilled. Which is ironic, because Mennonites and Mormons are more similar than they are different, two sides of the same coin. Hence why lots of secular people here got Mormons and Mennonites mixed up all the time lol.

I find most cult members are “nice”, but it’s inauthentic and disingenuous. Talking to very indoctrinated Mormon or Mennonite woman is like talking to a Barbie doll. It’s icky. I guess that’s why Mormon women use so much tranquilizers. They don’t have a voice, so no wonder they’re depressed.”

I imagine many see Mormons as nice, service-oriented people, even if a bit brainwashed.

Dogma is the yang - nothing wrong with it, but LDS need a little less "A bible! A bible!" and a little more asking, seeking, knocking imnsho.

You think there’s nothing wrong with accepting lies uncritically… just because “authority said so”?

[Original_Intent]

Another random thought about dogma in the church, especially in such a cultish church. And is the way I see Mormonism different than most people in the world see it?

Apparently others had related thoughts…

“As a nevermo I’m actually quite fond of Mormons. When I was taking the lessons the Mormons I met were all quite pleasant. Now I just think they are brainwashed, in a Stepford Wives kind of way. I do not see them as genuine, almost as if they are being remotely controlled.

You want to know what nevermos think of Mormons...Here's the secret, they don't think about Mormons at all. Only .21% of the World's population are members and only about 30% of that miniscule number is even active. So...billions of people live and die knowing and caring ZERO about Mormons

I do think that Mormons are respectable in some regards. Other posters have compared the church to a country club and what type of people are in a country club? Upper middle class types and those types of people are usually respectable. Someone may look at their Mormon neighbor and think that he's dorky, gullible and spends way too much time at church but he has an MBA/JD/MD, earns a great salary, drives a Mercedes, lives in a big house and goes on fancy vacations. Money and status can offset weirdness to a degree.

^ (Reply): But what about all the stories of Mormons cheating other members financially and all the affinity fraud, including MLMs? Those are part of Mormon culture, too, at least in high-density areas.

I’m nevermo, but I grew up in a very evangelical Mennonite part of the country. The word “Mormon” was akin to a swear word, as the people here found Mormonism so offensive. The belief was the Book of Mormon was blasphemy and Mormonism was an offence to God. There was a fear of Mormonism instilled. Which is ironic, because Mennonites and Mormons are more similar than they are different, two sides of the same coin. Hence why lots of secular people here got Mormons and Mennonites mixed up all the time lol.

I find most cult members are “nice”, but it’s inauthentic and disingenuous. Talking to very indoctrinated Mormon or Mennonite woman is like talking to a Barbie doll. It’s icky. I guess that’s why Mormon women use so much tranquilizers. They don’t have a voice, so no wonder they’re depressed.”

I imagine many see Mormons as nice, service-oriented people, even if a bit brainwashed.

Dogma is the yang - nothing wrong with it, but LDS need a little less "A bible! A bible!" and a little more asking, seeking, knocking imnsho.

You think there’s nothing wrong with accepting lies uncritically… just because “authority said so”?

I guess we disagree on our usage of "dogma".

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

I am using it in the sense of saying "I know" and the yin of that is "I don't know", "I question", or "I seek".
Based on the definition, I see where you are coming from. In my thought, in our yang state WE EACH are the person being dogmatic, stating that x.y. and z are "incontrovertibly true" - and in this sense, there is nothing wrong with dogma as part of the greater whole.

[FrankOne]

Please pardon the cussing… ( cussing, which I just learned activates the part of the brain when animals are warning others of danger )



Unfortunately, 10 years later, he ate his words falling for face masks etc…

orson wells clapping.jpg (17.23 KiB) Viewed 2684 times

[Thinker]

You think there’s nothing wrong with accepting lies uncritically… just because “authority said so”?

I guess we disagree on our usage of "dogma".

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

I am using it in the sense of saying "I know" and the yin of that is "I don't know", "I question", or "I seek".
Based on the definition, I see where you are coming from. In my thought, in our yang state WE EACH are the person being dogmatic, stating that x.y. and z are "incontrovertibly true" - and in this sense, there is nothing wrong with dogma as part of the greater whole.

Well, I also see where you’re coming from. Thanks. Similarly, I argue against agnosticism, despite it being the most strictly logical stand, because it ignores the power of strong belief, ie placebo effect. Faith is - fact of life for all - it’s ignorant to pretend such a powerful influence doesn’t exist.

Maybe belief & faith are like $ or time - we need to study our potential investments before we invest. Dogma hurts us if we don’t. I firmly believe - & there’s evidence to suggest - that some religious dogmas are correlated (or help cause) mental illness & financial problems.

It may be more realistic & thus healthier to approach religious ideas, assuming that at least 3/4 of them are wrong & immoral. If we’re mistaken, great! But to go forward blindly investing confidently, our precious faith in evil - is unwise, especially if we could’ve discerned the evil if we simply took an hour of meditation, contemplation & prayer to see it for what it is, rather than blindly accept it because authority says so. Thinking takes mental work - & may not always be pleasant - but it’s important to even “wrestle with (our ideas of) God” as Jacob did, so we don’t get tricked into worshipping false gods as the vast majority do.

[Thinker]

The following video got me thinking:
1. Savings is important (apx 70% live paycheck to paycheck which is how some end up homeless.)
2. Often people are lying to themselves & others - basically they don’t REALLY want to change. They just blame this or that as excuses.
3. If they don’t want to change, then maybe consider spending energy, resources etc, more wisely, understanding that their choices are ultimately up to them, not you.

4. *Often those who have been through the wringer & came out on top, have the strongest spirits! I mean, like this guy who got clean helps others now (briefly mentioned nde/God which I wish he would’ve shared more) 1:10-1:30. I get the impression that this guy is doing the work of God, no matter what his religious beliefs or lack of.
5) A universal temptation seems to be to try to remain childish - to not grow up. Some cling to parental “authority“ substitutes, some want to live off of others, some just don’t want any responsibilities. I don’t know anyone who isn’t somewhat tempted by this. So what to do?
Maybe practice prayer and meditation to feel safe, to trust in our Heavenly Parents & to feel that wonderful sense of being carefree.

Las Vegas tunnel people…https://youtu.be/bRGrKJofDaw?si=DkwHCTodvww91j7T

[Thinker]

What to say when someone assumes that you believe as they do & attend church, by asking which church you attend…

Why? Are you church-shopping?

(Others’ ideas…)

"I'm afraid I can't discuss our sect's observances without risking legal repercussions."

"Why? Did a dark man with a mask ask you to find out? Did he smell like fish? How much did he offer to pay you? What direction did he leave? WHAT KIND OF SHOES WAS HE WEARING!?"

"I can't tell through the leather hood, but it's someplace underground near running waters. Maybe one of the sewer tunnels?"

Just say you're Jewish. Most people don't have any idea what a practicing Jew looks like, and (thanks to Scofield bibles propaganda) evangelicals have a certain level of reverence towards Jews.

[Silver Pie]

I suppose you could always respond by saying, "Weird question. Why do you ask that?"

[Thinker]

I suppose you could always respond by saying, "Weird question. Why do you ask that?"

Good idea for a reply.

[Thinker]

It’s strange how you can easily understand something logically but not emotionally or experientially. Eg: Evil. It’s easy to understand there is good and evil. But when you come across it in your mother, spouse, sibling and friend who you thought were supports for you but betrayed you - it slaps the crap out of you! And then when you have surprisingly evil thoughts, again, it is something difficult to deal with, but deal with we must. If we don’t wrestle with this, then we may hurt others or ourselves by trying to ignore it, or deny it. Evil - & the potential for more evil - is in every single person - but so is enormous good.

It seems like we each not only wear persona masks with others, we demand it of others too. It’s like we can’t handle the truth that each person contains Medusa snakes that could come out any second. Etiquette may be the underlying social rules that allow us to keep our snakes under control so we don’t freak each other out. Maybe everyone is afraid of the evil in themselves & in others, and justifiably so. Yet, that fear seems to add to the evil, so we need to figure out a better way.

We’re challenged with recognizing the difference between good & evil, while responding to it appropriately. Easier said than done! Boundaries and compassion for all that constantly need to be reassessed and altered according to new information.


Also:
It’s like layers of an onion - or line upon line… always more to learn or suddenly SEE - when we’re ready to see. Like a spider that’s been hanging out near you for maybe weeks but only upon seeing it does it freak you out. Some people - especially family who I saw evil from - really freaked me out. It’s like finding out about Santa but 100x worse. It may take some time to even accept the newly realized information. Then, at some point, just figure, “Ok, now I know I cannot depend on this person for this & this - & I’ll extend a boundary in this way, but they’re good in these other ways.” It’s kinda sad - maybe even a grieving process - but only losing the illusion & trading it for more clarity.

And…Maybe each of us have high expectations for what we value most. Sometimes our value systems correlate with morality - but some part of it may be more based on our own preferences or pet peeves. We, or rather I, need to be careful not to mix up my own value system with good & evil. I don’t know all of the facts about everyone, & maybe God or a higher wisdom would judge people based on where they’re coming from.

[Thinker]

Struggles strengthen!
…Or they can, if we respond right.
Look at adversity and challenge as resistance training that helps your core!

[Thinker]

Parts of this song resonated with me today…

“Every night I say a prayer…
And every day I'm more confused
As the saints turn into sinners

All the heroes and legends
I knew as a child have fallen to idols of clay
And I feel this empty place inside
So afraid that I've lost my faith

Show me the way…

And as I slowly drift to sleep
For a moment dreams are sacred
I close my eyes and know there's peace
In a world so filled with hatred…

And if I see a light, should I believe
Tell me how will I know.”

https://youtu.be/fX1o6DiogDM

A related song: Something to Believe In, by
Poison

[Thinker]

With the Thailand cave rescue, at extremely narrow parts, each had to go through individually. Maybe in some aspects, “the narrow way,” spiritually is similar. I AM that I AM… Jesus did his way of Christ & suggested we each do our individual way. Maybe partly why so few find the narrow way is because it is individual - no marked or trodden path but more creating it as you go & that can feel scary, lonely & take a lot of faith.

[FrankOne]

You think there’s nothing wrong with accepting lies uncritically… just because “authority said so”?

I guess we disagree on our usage of "dogma".

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

I am using it in the sense of saying "I know" and the yin of that is "I don't know", "I question", or "I seek".
Based on the definition, I see where you are coming from. In my thought, in our yang state WE EACH are the person being dogmatic, stating that x.y. and z are "incontrovertibly true" - and in this sense, there is nothing wrong with dogma as part of the greater whole.

Well, I also see where you’re coming from. Thanks. Similarly, I argue against agnosticism, despite it being the most strictly logical stand, because it ignores the power of strong belief, ie placebo effect. Faith is - fact of life for all - it’s ignorant to pretend such a powerful influence doesn’t exist.

I had a new thought after reading your words above:

Those that identify as Agnostics are typically intellectuals which actually understand what the word means. To say the words "I am Agnostic" means the person has actually give some thought to religion, spirituality, and belief itself.

yet, the underlying motivation to take this position could be laziness, complacency, or fear. A self identified Agnostic is usually a seemingly secure person and complacent or comfortable in their life. If a person is internally angry or insecure or both.... then they would more likely identify as an Atheist. Emotions obstruct reason. Anyone that is actually intelligent (and not flooded with emotion) would never identify as Atheist because that would put them in the same classification as a religious zealot. A believer.

An Agnostic fears the discovery of something that could change their world and their life which would disturb their comfort. "Don't try to take off my blinders, I like my little whirled"

[Fred]

I guess we disagree on our usage of "dogma".
I am using it in the sense of saying "I know" and the yin of that is "I don't know", "I question", or "I seek".
Based on the definition, I see where you are coming from. In my thought, in our yang state WE EACH are the person being dogmatic, stating that x.y. and z are "incontrovertibly true" - and in this sense, there is nothing wrong with dogma as part of the greater whole.

Well, I also see where you’re coming from. Thanks. Similarly, I argue against agnosticism, despite it being the most strictly logical stand, because it ignores the power of strong belief, ie placebo effect. Faith is - fact of life for all - it’s ignorant to pretend such a powerful influence doesn’t exist.

I had a new thought after reading your words above:

Those that identify as Agnostics are typically intellectuals which actually understand what the word means. To say the words "I am Agnostic" means the person has actually give some thought to religion, spirituality, and belief itself.

yet, the underlying motivation to take this position could be laziness, complacency, or fear. A self identified Agnostic is usually a seemingly secure person and complacent or comfortable in their life. If a person is internally angry or insecure or both.... then they would more likely identify as an Atheist. Emotions obstruct reason. Anyone that is actually intelligent (and not flooded with emotion) would never identify as Atheist because that would put them in the same classification as a religious zealot. A believer.

An Agnostic fears the discovery of something that could change their world and their life which would disturb their comfort. "Don't try to take off my blinders, I like my little whirled"

Lazy is a kind word for agnostic. Seek and ye shall find. Don't seek and probably not find. Afraid to seek is something I hadn't considered as I just figured it was mere stupidity, rather than cowardice. In my view, one that does not seek, is not interested in finding. Even a person born in a devoutly religious family should not take it for granted that what they were taught is correct. If a person finds truth without seeking, as in by accident, it may be only as beneficial as a lottery winner that is broke again in 3 years. To not wonder or care about where one came from or why, is ignorant of the meaning of life. Stupidity on purpose.

[Thinker]

I had a new thought after reading your words above:

Those that identify as Agnostics are typically intellectuals which actually understand what the word means. To say the words "I am Agnostic" means the person has actually give some thought to religion, spirituality, and belief itself.

yet, the underlying motivation to take this position could be laziness, complacency, or fear. A self identified Agnostic is usually a seemingly secure person and complacent or comfortable in their life. If a person is internally angry or insecure or both.... then they would more likely identify as an Atheist. Emotions obstruct reason. Anyone that is actually intelligent (and not flooded with emotion) would never identify as Atheist because that would put them in the same classification as a religious zealot. A believer.

An Agnostic fears the discovery of something that could change their world and their life which would disturb their comfort. "Don't try to take off my blinders, I like my little whirled"

I think I understand what you mean - on the surface it’s like Agnostics are on the fence, “luke-warm.” For some, it may be chosen lazy, fear-based indecision so as not to be held responsible either way.

Just for fun, I’m going to play with your words & replace atheist with Mormon (or believer/religious adherent)…

“If a person is internally angry or insecure or both.... then they would more likely identify as a Mormon. Emotions obstruct reason. Anyone that is actually intelligent (and not flooded with emotion) would never identify as Mormon because that would put them in the same classification as a atheist zealot... “

Both Mormons/religious & Atheists believe things often which facts contradict - aka they are in denial.

I see purpose in each stage - like Fowler faith stages: (left side of chart…)



Stage 3: religious - many stuck here entire lives
Stage 4: atheists if stuck, agnostics if a bit more reasonable
Stage 5: realizing truth in past stages while moving on

Atheism & Agnosticism (stage 4) is actually a step beyond religious fanaticism in that it dares to wrestle with God - at least more than religious do.

Mormon Testimony meetings often include 2 main evils: prideful ignor-ance. “I know…I know” (BS! You don’t know but you pridefully believe you do. ) They could use a little humble agnosticism - “I believe - - but I am open to learning more.”

[Thinker]

Each person has their own priorities & values. Some people base their god/highest priorities on herd mentalities. Herd mentalities can be good, bad, neutral or a mix.

My priorities and values are not the same as some people I associate with. I imagine that some of them shame me for not having their priorities and values. And at times, I have looked down on others for not having my priorities and values. But we each are on our own unique journey & are at various stages of development.

Feedback from others can help me - to make my values & priorities more godly - but some feedback can discourage or distract me from what is best. I need to remember to worship, prioritize and value God above all.

U B U
I’ll be me.

[Thinker]

After processing significant betrayal, evil is seen a bit more clearly. Contrary to what many of us were taught, evil that you most likely will come across is not blatant. It’s subtle & hidden, whether within us or others. If it were blatant, it might be easier to confront. But because it is mixed with good, it presents a challenge.

So how best to deal with such subtle evil?