Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
Post Reply
A Disciple
captain of 100
Posts: 368

Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by A Disciple »

An interesting conversation took place in a recent Elders Quorum meeting. Initiated by the quorum president it concerned an Active Shooting Scenario. This is the first time in my church membership I recall this conversation taking place in a church meeting. This topic would only be raised if it came from higher up in the church. Coincidentally, yesterday a shooter entered the Lakewood (Joel Olsteen) church in Houston with an AR15. Armed security rapidly took down and killed the person. The Houston incident happened AFTER the conversation in my ward and shows the risk of violence at churches is real.

The LDS church lawyers do not support arming members or having armed guards at meetinghouses. It is understandable why. The church executives hate corporate liability and authorizing an armed response to a chapel conflict creates a huge corporate risk. However, we cannot be blind to the messaging that is being produced by haters of Truth. It is acceptable conversation among the Marxists that populate the political Left that Christians and Whites are not worthy to exist. This is producing crazies who are choosing to take out vengeance against "easy targets" such as churches.

The scriptures are clear that in the last days the earth will be filled with violence.

At what point will you stop attending church if you know the LDS official position is that you will be a sitting duck if/when a crazy enters the chapel with the intent to commit mass murder?

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4345

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Shawn Henry »

There are those who carry despite church rules, but when they actually put down a shooter, do you think the church will have their back and thank them or throw them under the bus?

A Disciple
captain of 100
Posts: 368

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by A Disciple »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 12th, 2024, 10:32 am There are those who carry despite church rules, but when they actually put down a shooter, do you think the church will have their back and thank them or throw them under the bus?
I am confident the the church lawyers will make a cost vs benefit decision. :)

Reality is the corporate church is stuck. They are where all the money is and they have made it clear that they decide the rules. And the corporation owns all the property. This means all arrows of risk and liability point to the corporate church. The way to avoid this many billion dollar liability risk is to disperse the church wealth through the world to the stakes of the church. Then a "problem" in one ward / stake does not threaten the whole. But this approach is unsatisfactory as it would cause the corporate officers to lose their financial power.

User avatar
IsaiahVision
captain of 100
Posts: 329
Location: G.Grandson of several famous Heretics

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by IsaiahVision »

Confession. I carry in church all or most of the time (and another church I recently attended for their Christmas Eve program) and have done so for around 30-years. I know others do too; one on LDSFF. I recently 'carried' in a Temple open house; will again tonight in another Temple Open House. I even open-carried last year on a ward YM activity-campout at Lee's Ferry. I carry everyday and I have a substantial amount of professional firearms school combat training. My pioneer ancestors were at Hans Mills and were shot and wounded.

A few guess I carry in Church, but I never tell; they just know me. There was that time last year in Church where a crazy man walked into church; I was not there that Sunday, but several ward members who know me, told my wife they wished I would have been there!

When the 'policy' came out, I was highly-bothered steaming-mad, to put it mildly. To make a long-story short, the Holy Spirit granted me permission, with a 'sign', to carry in Church whenever and however I please...as I was deciding whether to ever go back to church. It is a PTSD big deal for me. As far as I am concerned, the Holy Spirit outranks the prophet. (Or, at least the Holy Spirit trusts me.)

I have a Church don't-ask, don't-tell policy; it is not up for discussion...period. We are talking about a corporate policy, not a commandment. However, I think it is hypocritical (one of many instances) that Church security carries on Church property, has its own firearms training center, and Q15 gets 'armed protection', but lowly members do not have the same right. You really don't think there are security firearms in temples today (where possible by law)? I guess they really don't trust temple-recommend-holding, law-abiding, trustworthy priesthood holders? Do we have agency or do we not?

If Temple guards in the OT were 'armed' with swords, and God's angles have swords in heaven (OT), and the Nauvoo temple was built with 'guns in hand', and Joseph Smith was armed in Carthage Jail, I sure in the HELL have an unalienable right to carry-concealed my Glock in Church (or on Temple Square :) )!

Should I add that the 'policy' never had a sustaining vote by the Law of Common Consent?

HeberC
captain of 100
Posts: 297

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by HeberC »

On another forum, someone said there was a threat phoned into the ward (bomb or gun... I forgot which). The bishop didn't tell anyone. This person was outraged and asked the bishop if there was an emergency plan. The bishop said, no. This person felt his children in primary were unsafe.

User avatar
mike_rumble
captain of 100
Posts: 402

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by mike_rumble »

Lakewood Church Shooter Identified as Transgender Immigrant from El Salvador.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/0 ... immigrant/

User avatar
BigT
captain of 100
Posts: 719

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by BigT »

mike_rumble wrote: February 12th, 2024, 5:33 pm Lakewood Church Shooter Identified as Transgender Immigrant from El Salvador.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/0 ... immigrant/
I’m sure this will be all over corporate media. 🤥

My wife and I both carried when we were church-goers. We didn’t know we weren’t supposed to. (Would have done so anyway.)

User avatar
Libertas Est Salus
captain of 100
Posts: 463

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Libertas Est Salus »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 12th, 2024, 10:32 am There are those who carry despite church rules, but when they actually put down a shooter, do you think the church will have their back and thank them or throw them under the bus?
The church will find a way to throw them under the bus. "While we are grateful that many lives were saved, we do not condone the general membership taking the law into their own hands, not to mention violating church policy—which explicitly and in no uncertain terms prohibits carrying weapons on church property."

User avatar
JK4Woods
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2487

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by JK4Woods »

We had a Bishop call four of us in and asked us to carry. This was after the last spate of church killings about ten years ago.

Said we should disburse to the four corners where entry into the chapel was possible.

They also only unlocked the main foyer doors on Sundays. If you tried the other outside doors, they’d be locked from the outside. You’d have to walk around to the main foyer doors.

This was during Obama’s first term. We also had roving patrols in the parking lot over at the stake center.

Still, Cadillac Escalades were broken into, and had all their leather seats stolen while the watchman were on the other side of the building…. Took less than three minutes with a cordless impact to pull all the seats…

At the time, they were worth $5,000 on eBay… and cost considerably more from the dealer for replacements.

JuneBug12000
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1984

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by JuneBug12000 »

I was in a ward, and friends, with a woman whose brother was the bishop shot in California some years back.

The shooter was a stranger. He shot the bishop in his office. The bishop put his own body against the door to block the gunman's exit and and yelled for the young women waiting in the he hallway to run. He left a wife and 6 small children.

He should have been encouraged to have a gun and then he would have gone home to his family instead of saving people by literally dying and using his dead weight to protect them.

User avatar
Subcomandante
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4386

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Subcomandante »

When it comes to this policy with guns in church, I have commented in such a way in the past that would indicate that they shouldn't be had in Church.

This is an open disclaimer for people who wish to look back, and I am open about that.

Since my awakening though, I think I have changed a bit. In Mexico, of course, this policy would be looked at as about the same as the Family proclamation being revealed in the 90s. In other words, why do we need this? There is no 2nd Amendment here; if you are caught with an unregistered gun, unless you are police or army, you will be arrested and fined. They will even hit you for unregistered bullets even if you don't have the gun!

But in areas where people are able to carry, I think it should be common sense for those that know how to use guns, to start to carry at Church. For me it is a contradiction to have weapons in a place dedicated to the worship of the Prince of Peace. But with all the crazy people out there that would love to grease a Christian, it is becoming more necessary to employ defensive techniques. I wouldn't have to want to rely on that member who is in law enforcement but is answering a police call and therefore is not at Church. The members there would be sitting ducks.

And while I feel that martyrdom would be a great way to go down to meet your Maker, it should not be gratituous because we weren't prepared for it. Others are just starting their repentance process and probably won't want to die that day.

I could imagine the Nephites at Church with an outside picket to warn the worshippers of a Lamanite assault.

The original Christians used code words in order to admit people to their worship services, so as not to get caught by the Romans or by bandits.

The early Church no doubt had armed guards to protect the pioneers from marauding mobs and/or Native Americans.

I now say, with all confidence, if you know how to use your weapons, ARM YOURSELVES. If you live in an area where arming yourself is impossible, LEARN MARTIAL ARTS of some sort. Specifically the types of martial arts that can distract an active shooter.

A shepherd must tend to his flock, and sometimes, FIGHT OFF THE WOLVES.

User avatar
dreamtheater76
captain of 100
Posts: 880

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by dreamtheater76 »

I know plenty of people who carry anyway. My father always carried when he was the bishop. I work for the church and know people who carry that I've worked with.
If policy puts people's lives in danger to haides with it! Be responsible. Protect yourself and your family.

Years ago before the policy was ever considered we had a fireside with an off duty officer who shot a man who threatened the congregation in his ward. I won't forget it.

If a tragic event does happen it's just going to make church policy look retarded. And deservingly so.

GeeR
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1616

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by GeeR »

I think is should be pointed out that there is a strong possibility that shooters might not be "crazies" they could be innocent chipped i.e implanted Manchurian Candidates.

User avatar
Seed Starter
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1380
Contact:

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Seed Starter »

If a corporation is hosting an event wouldn't they have some legal exposure for not providing any security for an event on their property? Even a mall cop would be some effort. Zero effort seems like a problem. Then again the lawyers just need to decide which policy costs less which I think was already posted above. When I went I had zero moral issues with carrying. I've been to an evangelical church a few times and I would guess 10% of the adults likely carry some or all the time. I would say 80% of the men also have some sort of facial hair. This church also has zero tolerance for rainbow stuff and focuses almost exclusively on believing in Christ and leading others to him. I've never experienced anything like this before. One man serves weekly teaching young convicts about Christ. They offer drive-by prayers to people driving by. They gather for corporate prayer (praying as a group for the needs of members) on some weekdays. They have a system for checking youth in and out of classes. They teach their youth how to share the gospel as they are learning the gospel. In the summer they have monthly pot lucks after the last service is over at the park close to the church.

They preach repentance often. Their praise music feels alive but still reverent. No, it's not rock n' roll but guitars are involved. The congregation stands as they sing and movement swaying or holding hands to heaven is not uncommon. The church I was born into feels asleep in comparison. LDS could be like this if not for the traditions of the fathers. Sorry to drift OT but I felt physically safer among these people than I ever did in a ward. Even as a new person I felt as if most around me would take a bullet to save me if it came down to that. I know Mormons like this too but the ratio being different is really what I'm getting at.

User avatar
Seed Starter
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1380
Contact:

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Seed Starter »

I just realized that I have something more to offer than a contrast between two churches. Since the church hiring armed security or allowing members to carry is not palatable to church lawyers perhaps the church can sponsor trauma kits and some basic training for a few ward members. Turn it into a calling if you want. Who would possibly protest some first aid training and equipment? If the church refuses to allow or provide protection then give people tools to deal with the aftermath in some way. Quick action could stop someone from bleeding out in a shooting. If a paramedic is in the congregation then he/she gets this calling. Don't wait to have a plan. Have a place in the chapel where lifesaving supplies are kept. This type of thing could be worked out from a corporate church level or a group of people making it so on the ward level. Mormons have a reputation for being prepared. This is just more of that. I would love to see something like this in every church. This could also be used to shine a light on the issue of security although corporate types won't want this. Never have a Sunday go by where there isn't at least one person in the congregation who can act and tell others what to do once the threat has been stopped. You can say, "Bishop, will you support me in keeping people alive if the ugliness comes to our chapel"? What's he going to say? "Sorry, we don't have the funds..." Just tell him an IFAK is a Godsend and you're golden ;)

https://www.rescue-essentials.com/ifak/

Erastothenes
captain of 100
Posts: 261

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Erastothenes »

The church took all of the defibrilators out of meeting houses due to potential liability. If myself or my family were shot while at church I would sue RustyCorp LLC to the ends of the Earth. It would be a fairly easy case. I would call Rusty to testify and ask him why he feels he needs armed guards. Has he had any verifiable threats against him or any of the church leaders to warrant armed guards? No? So you have armed guards "just in case?" So you feel that somewhere, at sometime, someone might pose a threat to one of the "annointed?" But your policy constrains members from the same level of defense for the same threat?

User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1036
Location: A galaxy far, far away

Re: Only Faith and not Lawyers can save the church

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 12th, 2024, 10:32 am There are those who carry despite church rules, but when they actually put down a shooter, do you think the church will have their back and thank them or throw them under the bus?
Image

Post Reply