New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

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Pazooka
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:15 am
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:05 am
Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:38 am I don’t know the family personally. I can only “judge” by the experiences I’ve had with Hannah on social media, and the audio that was leaked. IT IS EVIDENCE. AND IT’S INEXCUSABLE. If you think the mother is in the wrong, then show me some evidence. Right now that’s all I have to go off of. It’s been awhile since I’ve listened to it, but here’s what I remember.
1. He says she has evil spirits. If you don’t think that’s bad, please review what happened to Tylee Ryan and JJ. Vallow.
2. He accuses her of “breaking her covenants”, but what he means by that is that she eats sweets sometimes instead of eating a perfect gluten free, dairy free, plant based diet.
3. He blames her for any health problems their children have because she didn’t eat good enough foods during her pregnancies, or she ate sweets.
If you can’t see how that is wrong, then I honestly feel sorry for you.
On sale, now!!!

I hope everyone in that family gets the help they need.
Lol
It’s just sad.
Whoever was at fault, the marriage did end in divorce. And James Stoddard did pass away from cancer. Sad story all around.
I always wondered why Hannah didn’t post any pics of her mom on social media and why James never mentioned his wife: because they thought she was a liar and a covenant breaker and possessed by evil spirits. Or maybe she lied because her family was controlling and inflexible. Children of narcissists grow up to be fluent liars out of self preservation. I’m sure anyone in that family dynamic does what they need to to survive.

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Pazooka
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

Why is it that even the strictest of adherents to the Church don’t have the resources necessary to create healthy families? This is one of my biggest questions, lately.

I’m coming to the conclusion that it’s a false paradigm. Shaming the addicted…labeling the frustrated and depressed as possessed by evil. I was right there doing it, too.

The Church doesn’t have the answers humanity needs. And so, humanity will move on…with or without the Church.

Edit to add: You know what else I was? Racist. I couldn’t help it - the doctrine concerning the priesthood sets it up that way.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 6th, 2024, 5:17 pm I want to like Hannah Stoddard…
But after audio was leaked of her and her father berating, verbally abusing and gaslighting their mother and wife for 30-45 minutes, I take everything she says with a humongous grain of salt. I understand people are complex and not all bad or all good. But that audio was one of the worst things I have ever heard in my life.

I tried to gently, calmly, nicely suggest on her Facebook post about polygamy that Eliza R. Snow had originally been against it, so how could I trust her later when she claimed to be Joseph Smith’s wife, etc. And Hannah lost her mind, getting quite angry at me.

These are my experiences with her. It’s sad because I’m sure they do put out some good stuff too.
What’s the implication of Eliza being against before she was for polygamy?

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Wolfwoman
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Wolfwoman »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: February 7th, 2024, 12:58 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: February 6th, 2024, 5:17 pm I want to like Hannah Stoddard…
But after audio was leaked of her and her father berating, verbally abusing and gaslighting their mother and wife for 30-45 minutes, I take everything she says with a humongous grain of salt. I understand people are complex and not all bad or all good. But that audio was one of the worst things I have ever heard in my life.

I tried to gently, calmly, nicely suggest on her Facebook post about polygamy that Eliza R. Snow had originally been against it, so how could I trust her later when she claimed to be Joseph Smith’s wife, etc. And Hannah lost her mind, getting quite angry at me.

These are my experiences with her. It’s sad because I’m sure they do put out some good stuff too.
What’s the implication of Eliza being against before she was for polygamy?
Hopefully I’m getting the history right here. But as I recall, at first, in Nauvoo, she and others signed a document stating that polygamy had never been part of the church, was not part of the church, and that they were against such a thing. Then later in Utah they stated that it was a doctrine that Joseph taught back in Nauvoo. So to me, she and others are not reliable witnesses.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:02 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: February 7th, 2024, 12:58 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: February 6th, 2024, 5:17 pm I want to like Hannah Stoddard…
But after audio was leaked of her and her father berating, verbally abusing and gaslighting their mother and wife for 30-45 minutes, I take everything she says with a humongous grain of salt. I understand people are complex and not all bad or all good. But that audio was one of the worst things I have ever heard in my life.

I tried to gently, calmly, nicely suggest on her Facebook post about polygamy that Eliza R. Snow had originally been against it, so how could I trust her later when she claimed to be Joseph Smith’s wife, etc. And Hannah lost her mind, getting quite angry at me.

These are my experiences with her. It’s sad because I’m sure they do put out some good stuff too.
What’s the implication of Eliza being against before she was for polygamy?
Hopefully I’m getting the history right here. But as I recall, at first, in Nauvoo, she and others signed a document stating that polygamy had never been part of the church, was not part of the church, and that they were against such a thing. Then later in Utah they stated that it was a doctrine that Joseph taught back in Nauvoo. So to me, she and others are not reliable witnesses.
The church was lying about it in scripture in dandC 101 in the nauvoo years so she could have been swept up in the cover up. Or she could have been coerced in itah to support the status quo. One of those options is likely

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Wolfwoman
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Wolfwoman »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:05 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:02 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: February 7th, 2024, 12:58 pm

What’s the implication of Eliza being against before she was for polygamy?
Hopefully I’m getting the history right here. But as I recall, at first, in Nauvoo, she and others signed a document stating that polygamy had never been part of the church, was not part of the church, and that they were against such a thing. Then later in Utah they stated that it was a doctrine that Joseph taught back in Nauvoo. So to me, she and others are not reliable witnesses.
The church was lying about it in scripture in dandC 101 in the nauvoo years so she could have been swept up in the cover up. Or she could have been coerced in itah to support the status quo. One of those options is likely
Either way, she changed her story, so she’s not a reliable witness.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:08 pm
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:05 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: February 7th, 2024, 1:02 pm

Hopefully I’m getting the history right here. But as I recall, at first, in Nauvoo, she and others signed a document stating that polygamy had never been part of the church, was not part of the church, and that they were against such a thing. Then later in Utah they stated that it was a doctrine that Joseph taught back in Nauvoo. So to me, she and others are not reliable witnesses.
The church was lying about it in scripture in dandC 101 in the nauvoo years so she could have been swept up in the cover up. Or she could have been coerced in itah to support the status quo. One of those options is likely
Either way, she changed her story, so she’s not a reliable witness.
True.
But if we knew which story was the lie and which was the truth it would answer a lot of the Joseph-vs-Brigham-was-the-bad-guy questions.

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Chip
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Chip »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 6th, 2024, 5:17 pm I want to like Hannah Stoddard…
But after audio was leaked of her and her father berating, verbally abusing and gaslighting their mother and wife for 30-45 minutes, I take everything she says with a humongous grain of salt. I understand people are complex and not all bad or all good. But that audio was one of the worst things I have ever heard in my life.

I tried to gently, calmly, nicely suggest on her Facebook post about polygamy that Eliza R. Snow had originally been against it, so how could I trust her later when she claimed to be Joseph Smith’s wife, etc. And Hannah lost her mind, getting quite angry at me.

These are my experiences with her. It’s sad because I’m sure they do put out some good stuff too.

Could it be that most of the histrionics people engage in over trying to make sense of church history are just facets of ongoing idol worship? There is much business to do with the idol that is the church, even after freedom from the idol has been declared.

If we want to know how to live, the Bible and Book of Mormon are gold standards.

JohnnyL
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Don't know, don't care that much.

I just care about the scholarship here. <shrug>

JohnnyL
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:29 am Why is it that even the strictest of adherents to the Church don’t have the resources necessary to create healthy families? This is one of my biggest questions, lately.
...
Who says they/we are "the strictest of adherents to the Church"?

Anyway, there are plenty of resources. For most things, the Church will not do what has already been done, except in the basics. If you want more, use the Spirit as you read and pray about what you read. Even though they have gotten involved in other things (cough Covid cough), they generally stay out of most things. They teach the doctrine, and sometimes the principles; the application is up to each family.

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Pazooka
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 5:09 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:29 am Why is it that even the strictest of adherents to the Church don’t have the resources necessary to create healthy families? This is one of my biggest questions, lately.
...
Who says they/we are "the strictest of adherents to the Church"?

Anyway, there are plenty of resources. For most things, the Church will not do what has already been done, except in the basics. If you want more, use the Spirit as you read and pray about what you read. Even though they have gotten involved in other things (cough Covid cough), they generally stay out of most things. They teach the doctrine, and sometimes the principles; the application is up to each family.
When you consider that an adherent is “someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas” it is obvious from Hannah’s and her father’s websites that they were adherents of the church. It’s not just them, though, is it.

Friend, I spent my entire life bathing in the resources to be offered and it didn’t just get me nowhere - it set me back. And now I’m watching close friends and family unable to make progress fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.

Forgive, repent, trust in Jesus. That’s garbage advice when you need actual help. The culture of the church is hurting families and isn’t building a safe, healthy society, even among its own members.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 10010

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 6:41 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 5:09 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:29 am Why is it that even the strictest of adherents to the Church don’t have the resources necessary to create healthy families? This is one of my biggest questions, lately.
...
Who says they/we are "the strictest of adherents to the Church"?

Anyway, there are plenty of resources. For most things, the Church will not do what has already been done, except in the basics. If you want more, use the Spirit as you read and pray about what you read. Even though they have gotten involved in other things (cough Covid cough), they generally stay out of most things. They teach the doctrine, and sometimes the principles; the application is up to each family.
When you consider that an adherent is “someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas” it is obvious from Hannah’s and her father’s websites that they were adherents of the church. It’s not just them, though, is it.

Friend, I spent my entire life bathing in the resources to be offered and it didn’t just get me nowhere - it set me back. And now I’m watching close friends and family unable to make progress fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.

Forgive, repent, trust in Jesus. That’s garbage advice when you need actual help. The culture of the church is hurting families and isn’t building a safe, healthy society, even among its own members.
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.
fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.
Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

CuriousThinker wrote: February 7th, 2024, 12:36 am
JohnnyL wrote: February 6th, 2024, 4:38 pm Has anyone read this book?

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/store ... -betrayed/

Seems I was right about Arrington, too.
I own both books. I have read 20% so far of the first one. I agree with her that he didn't use a chocolate seer stone found in a well, but used the urim and thummim to translate the BOM.
Do they site their sources in detail? And give any explanation for why some sources talk about the seer stone in the hat?

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Pazooka
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 6:41 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 5:09 pm
Who says they/we are "the strictest of adherents to the Church"?

Anyway, there are plenty of resources. For most things, the Church will not do what has already been done, except in the basics. If you want more, use the Spirit as you read and pray about what you read. Even though they have gotten involved in other things (cough Covid cough), they generally stay out of most things. They teach the doctrine, and sometimes the principles; the application is up to each family.
When you consider that an adherent is “someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas” it is obvious from Hannah’s and her father’s websites that they were adherents of the church. It’s not just them, though, is it.

Friend, I spent my entire life bathing in the resources to be offered and it didn’t just get me nowhere - it set me back. And now I’m watching close friends and family unable to make progress fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.

Forgive, repent, trust in Jesus. That’s garbage advice when you need actual help. The culture of the church is hurting families and isn’t building a safe, healthy society, even among its own members.
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.
fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.
Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3769

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 6:41 pm

When you consider that an adherent is “someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas” it is obvious from Hannah’s and her father’s websites that they were adherents of the church. It’s not just them, though, is it.

Friend, I spent my entire life bathing in the resources to be offered and it didn’t just get me nowhere - it set me back. And now I’m watching close friends and family unable to make progress fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.

Forgive, repent, trust in Jesus. That’s garbage advice when you need actual help. The culture of the church is hurting families and isn’t building a safe, healthy society, even among its own members.
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.
fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.
Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
If we have to read a self help book, is that a form of repentance?

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Pazooka
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Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:05 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.



Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
If we have to read a self help book, is that a form of repentance?
Have you ever read one? Did it feel like repentance?

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10010

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 6:41 pm

When you consider that an adherent is “someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas” it is obvious from Hannah’s and her father’s websites that they were adherents of the church. It’s not just them, though, is it.

Friend, I spent my entire life bathing in the resources to be offered and it didn’t just get me nowhere - it set me back. And now I’m watching close friends and family unable to make progress fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.

Forgive, repent, trust in Jesus. That’s garbage advice when you need actual help. The culture of the church is hurting families and isn’t building a safe, healthy society, even among its own members.
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.
fighting things like mental illness, unresolved grief, self-destructive behaviors and psychosomatic illness and their biggest roadblock ranges from the inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says, or the fact that their parents weren’t “goodly” or the fact that when they were widowed with young children the church taught that a life of service would be the solution, rather than processing the anger and grief.
Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
Correct.

The elders and apostles are to preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, not be the end-all panacea for every single facet of our lives. We know that, or should know that.

'Knowing' and 'doing' are not the same. Many are called, but few are chosen--because they choose to not do what they know.

It takes a lot of time, sources, patience, rough roads and dead ends, but... yes, working all right for me.
Last edited by JohnnyL on February 7th, 2024, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 10010

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:05 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.



Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
If we have to read a self help book, is that a form of repentance?
No. But it might help us repent.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10010

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: February 6th, 2024, 4:57 pm I have not. Are you reading it now? Will you give a review?
No, I am not. I would give a few more tidbits if I were reading it.

There is this, from the link:
*Progressives claim the Church covered up its history for nearly 200 years. Is the current faith crisis stemming from unmasked history . . . or new interpretations?

*Why did New Mormon Historians insist Hofmann’s forgeries were legitimate, even when investigators provided convincing evidence to them of the hoax?

*How did Bruce R. McConkie know Hofmann’s Joseph Smith III blessing was a fake, despite authentication by document experts and pressure by historians calling him “incompetent” for questioning?

*Who were the “Swearing Elders”? How did this group of progressive Latter-day Saints reshape the identity of Mormonism?

*Why did Carol Lynn Pearson and Leonard Arrington share cards that read, “History is on our side—as long as we can control the historians”?

*Leonard Arrington shared that an “invisible higher power” commissioned him to rewrite or reconstruct our dominant narrative of the Restoration.

*Did God want our history changed?

*Why did Leonard Arrington say the First Vision, Nephites and gold plates were part of the Mormon “myth”?

*Why did Leonard Arrington note that if he were honest about his beliefs, “not many” Latter-day Saints would “want [him] to teach their children”? How did this affect his career as Church Historian and later at BYU?

*Progressives, working in the Church History Department and at BYU, claimed 40 years ago it would take a generation to re-educate the Church.

*Where are we in this re-education?

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3769

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:39 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:05 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm

So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
If we have to read a self help book, is that a form of repentance?
Have you ever read one? Did it feel like repentance?
I have never read one, I ask the Lord.

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Pazooka
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Posts: 5287
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:40 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 7:34 pm
In the end, that's all that matters, right?

However, I want more, for this life, too.

I understood long ago (unfortunately, often by sad experience) that the Church would not be saving us in applying many truths in our lives, but that we had to do it ourselves.

I am amazed at how many people talk about so many things that are problems, and when I ask "Have you read any of the 50 books on amazon about this, or articles on the research publications, or anything?" I usually get the answer, "No."

Raising my daughter, through the Spirit and experience I wrote a little booklet about how to care for her, and many of the points were also about children in general. I later picked up a famous baby book, and lo and behold, most of what I had written was in there! You have got to do your own research and work.

Food storage? Yes, you could likely survive on what the Church produces (and it's very, very inexpensive), but I wouldn't stop there, at all. Etc.



Ha, I've done two and someone similar the last one.
The "inability to question what their patriarchal blessing says" is better said "the inability to question their interpretation of what their patriarchal blessing says".
What's goodly"? Once more, a matter of interpretation. Anyone who thinks heaven comes through joining the Church is deluded.


EFT, etc. for all of those ("mental illness, unresolved grief", etc.). Unfortunately, one apostle shut that down for many in the Church, though the Handbook is very mild compared to his GC talk. Now, gonna have to wait for two MD apostles to die or open their minds to get any kind of review...
I have written a Church leader, Social Services (Church), and the Missionary Department about related things.
The Church responded that it's not in their purview and they needed to concentrate on spiritual things and others could do a better job and all could do as they pleased to correct their problems; SS never wrote back or acknowledged; the Missionary Department basically sent a form letter.

Here's how the Church operates (based on multiple interactions with them): apostles get information (if they ever receive it/ their secretaries haven't trashed it, literally), ideas, suggestions, etc., and send the info to the "office" in charge (or in a few circumstances, a 70) with a note to check it out. Since those people are generally strict Western traditionalists, very little that is not a strict Western tradition is even considered, and even less makes it past them and into any Church program or any changes.

I think the biggest thing the DS/SAMO/etc. will do is clean out many of the Church Office Building workers and general Church workers.
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
Correct.

The elders and apostles are to preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, not be the end-all panacea for every single facet of our lives. We know that, or should know that.

'Knowing' and 'doing' are not the same. Many are called, but few are chosen--because they choose to not do what they know.

It takes a lot of time, sources, patience, rough roads and dead ends, but... yes, working all right for me.
Families and communities are weakening and failing because people simply don’t do what they know they should do. Isn’t that a lot like saying the obesity problem exists because people aren’t eating less and exercising more?

Is the Church as clueless about the inseparableness of the spirit/mind/body as the medical community?

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10010

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by JohnnyL »

Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:30 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:40 pm
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 8:45 pm
So, the church focuses mainly on spiritual things and you are to find all your answers through the Spirit, which will lead you to the exact self-help books you need.

Is it working? Are we getting more spiritual because we have that special formula? Are we having robust, thriving families and communities?
Correct.

The elders and apostles are to preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, not be the end-all panacea for every single facet of our lives. We know that, or should know that.

'Knowing' and 'doing' are not the same. Many are called, but few are chosen--because they choose to not do what they know.

It takes a lot of time, sources, patience, rough roads and dead ends, but... yes, working all right for me.
Families and communities are weakening and failing because people simply don’t do what they know they should do. Isn’t that a lot like saying the obesity problem exists because people aren’t eating less and exercising more?

Is the Church as clueless about the inseparableness of the spirit/mind/body as the medical community?
Many of us are living far below where we know we should be living, and we already know what we need to get up there--we're just not doing it.
(Compare the numbers:
those who know we are supposed (substitute 'commanded') to have FHE vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to read the Book of Mormon daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have family prayer twice daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to keep the Sabbath holy vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to attend all church meetings vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to serve others vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to do ministering vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to obey the Word of Wisdom vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have humility and charity vs. those who do.
This list is endless, just for the attend-every-Sunday 'active' members.)

The lesser part are doing their best to implement/ act on what they know, but are not perfect.

For 80% of people, obesity would be drastically helped by eating less and exercising more. And it will usually help everyone, to some degree.
Unfortunately, it would take cultural changes to help that. How many people are willing to go clean the church building when fresh fruit will be the reward instead of donuts? ;) A Relief Society activity where you could actually pray that the food might "nourish and strengthen our bodies"?

The Word of the Wisdom is taught as a doctrine; many cannot abide it. Those who do heed it will learn it is a principle; many more cannot abide it. Those who act on that principle will learn the correct applications; most cannot abide it.

The Church's main mission, as told many times, is to preach faith and repentance and gather Israel.
A high priest's mission is to help others enter into the rest of the Lord (Alma 13).
Apostles are to be special witnesses for Jesus Christ to all the nations.
Those are the main concerns.

We've heard "Work out your own salvation" "Every man is free to choose" and many, many more similar statements from the scriptures. If we are wise, we will apply "work out our own salvation" in temporal areas, too.

Individual units can do much that the Church wil allow, but not condone/ support. It should be that way for many reasons (look at the Covid fiasco).

Which way do we want it--be told all things, and then feel justified in blaming the Church for anything that did happen or could happen; or learn and do on our own, and share what we have experienced and learned?

(Which we could be doing a LOT more of here, if we could drop all the "the Church sucks because they hurt me" threads which have prevailed over the past four years.)

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Wolfwoman
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Posts: 2621

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Wolfwoman »

JohnnyL wrote: February 8th, 2024, 9:52 am
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:30 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:40 pm
Correct.

The elders and apostles are to preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, not be the end-all panacea for every single facet of our lives. We know that, or should know that.

'Knowing' and 'doing' are not the same. Many are called, but few are chosen--because they choose to not do what they know.

It takes a lot of time, sources, patience, rough roads and dead ends, but... yes, working all right for me.
Families and communities are weakening and failing because people simply don’t do what they know they should do. Isn’t that a lot like saying the obesity problem exists because people aren’t eating less and exercising more?

Is the Church as clueless about the inseparableness of the spirit/mind/body as the medical community?
Many of us are living far below where we know we should be living, and we already know what we need to get up there--we're just not doing it.
(Compare the numbers:
those who know we are supposed (substitute 'commanded') to have FHE vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to read the Book of Mormon daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have family prayer twice daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to keep the Sabbath holy vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to attend all church meetings vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to serve others vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to do ministering vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to obey the Word of Wisdom vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have humility and charity vs. those who do.
This list is endless, just for the attend-every-Sunday 'active' members.)

The lesser part are doing their best to implement/ act on what they know, but are not perfect.

For 80% of people, obesity would be drastically helped by eating less and exercising more. And it will usually help everyone, to some degree.
Unfortunately, it would take cultural changes to help that. How many people are willing to go clean the church building when fresh fruit will be the reward instead of donuts? ;) A Relief Society activity where you could actually pray that the food might "nourish and strengthen our bodies"?

The Word of the Wisdom is taught as a doctrine; many cannot abide it. Those who do heed it will learn it is a principle; many more cannot abide it. Those who act on that principle will learn the correct applications; most cannot abide it.

The Church's main mission, as told many times, is to preach faith and repentance and gather Israel.
A high priest's mission is to help others enter into the rest of the Lord (Alma 13).
Apostles are to be special witnesses for Jesus Christ to all the nations.
Those are the main concerns.

We've heard "Work out your own salvation" "Every man is free to choose" and many, many more similar statements from the scriptures. If we are wise, we will apply "work out our own salvation" in temporal areas, too.

Individual units can do much that the Church wil allow, but not condone/ support. It should be that way for many reasons (look at the Covid fiasco).

Which way do we want it--be told all things, and then feel justified in blaming the Church for anything that did happen or could happen; or learn and do on our own, and share what we have experienced and learned?

(Which we could be doing a LOT more of here, if we could drop all the "the Church sucks because they hurt me" threads which have prevailed over the past four years.)
IMG_5755.jpeg
IMG_5755.jpeg (256.23 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
Haha we don’t get anything for cleaning the church! But that’s good, because I don’t need any donuts!

I do agree with you that we could be doing a lot more instead of complaining about the church all the time. It does get old sometimes. But then again, we can’t agree about much - see the poll about whether or not God the father has a physical body! But the majority of people do agree on there. It’s a loud minority who is doing a lot of the arguing about it.

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Pazooka
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Posts: 5287
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: New Mormon History vs Faith Crisis, Volume 1: We Were Not Betrayed!

Post by Pazooka »

JohnnyL wrote: February 8th, 2024, 9:52 am
Pazooka wrote: February 7th, 2024, 10:30 pm
JohnnyL wrote: February 7th, 2024, 9:40 pm
Correct.

The elders and apostles are to preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance, not be the end-all panacea for every single facet of our lives. We know that, or should know that.

'Knowing' and 'doing' are not the same. Many are called, but few are chosen--because they choose to not do what they know.

It takes a lot of time, sources, patience, rough roads and dead ends, but... yes, working all right for me.
Families and communities are weakening and failing because people simply don’t do what they know they should do. Isn’t that a lot like saying the obesity problem exists because people aren’t eating less and exercising more?

Is the Church as clueless about the inseparableness of the spirit/mind/body as the medical community?
Many of us are living far below where we know we should be living, and we already know what we need to get up there--we're just not doing it.
(Compare the numbers:
those who know we are supposed (substitute 'commanded') to have FHE vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to read the Book of Mormon daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have family prayer twice daily vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to keep the Sabbath holy vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to attend all church meetings vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to serve others vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to do ministering vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to obey the Word of Wisdom vs. those who do.
those who know we are supposed to have humility and charity vs. those who do.
This list is endless, just for the attend-every-Sunday 'active' members.)

The lesser part are doing their best to implement/ act on what they know, but are not perfect.

For 80% of people, obesity would be drastically helped by eating less and exercising more. And it will usually help everyone, to some degree.
Unfortunately, it would take cultural changes to help that. How many people are willing to go clean the church building when fresh fruit will be the reward instead of donuts? ;) A Relief Society activity where you could actually pray that the food might "nourish and strengthen our bodies"?

The Word of the Wisdom is taught as a doctrine; many cannot abide it. Those who do heed it will learn it is a principle; many more cannot abide it. Those who act on that principle will learn the correct applications; most cannot abide it.

The Church's main mission, as told many times, is to preach faith and repentance and gather Israel.
A high priest's mission is to help others enter into the rest of the Lord (Alma 13).
Apostles are to be special witnesses for Jesus Christ to all the nations.
Those are the main concerns.

We've heard "Work out your own salvation" "Every man is free to choose" and many, many more similar statements from the scriptures. If we are wise, we will apply "work out our own salvation" in temporal areas, too.

Individual units can do much that the Church wil allow, but not condone/ support. It should be that way for many reasons (look at the Covid fiasco).

Which way do we want it--be told all things, and then feel justified in blaming the Church for anything that did happen or could happen; or learn and do on our own, and share what we have experienced and learned?

(Which we could be doing a LOT more of here, if we could drop all the "the Church sucks because they hurt me" threads which have prevailed over the past four years.)
I can almost guarantee you that David McConkie, who was held on charges of sexual assault of a minor (the one that made the news back in October) was doing everything on your list of things one knows one ought to do.

I can guarantee that a stake patriarch of my close acquaintance is also doing all those things. But he is so emotionally constipated and ruled by toxic shame that this has been transmitted down to his children and grandchildren and is a dark undercurrent in the entire family.

It’s becoming more and more obvious that the beliefs and practices fostered by the church encourage individuals to hide and suppress the parts of themselves that they are taught are “negative” and “un-Christlike.” The natural consequence of hating and being ashamed of parts of the authentic self is a diseased state of mind that will surface in very unhealthy behaviors, moods and frustrations.

It’s usually not about counting calories. It’s more along the lines of what’s driving you to eat past your hunger signals.


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