"The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

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CaptainM
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Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

"The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by CaptainM »

Joseph Smith went on record as saying:

“The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner….”

He also brought forth purported revelations in the D&C that state:

Section 98:5
And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
Section 98:6
Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
Section 101:77
According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
Section 101:80
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
Section 109:54
Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.


I believe Joseph Smith got it wrong, and has caused honorable people much problems through spiritual blindness... What if it really isn't God's intent for us to consider the Constitution as scripture (as ETB exclaimed)? I reiterate as I have done in other posts that JS had one gift, and one gift only: to translate the Book of Mormon (Book of Commandments 4:2). And even in that endeavor he messed up so many things.


Knowing that LDSFF had its origins based around the subject matter at hand; and knowing that there are books, etc., that are proffered as being reliable, I feel a lot of concern. Seeing some responses and information contributed previously, I felt a desire to make this post. You may want to review a previous post I initiated: viewtopic.php?t=72129 for some background.

All through scriptural history (excluding questionable sources like the PoGP, JST, and apocryphal works) humans have struggled to find peace and harmony for any extended periods of time using government as the source of stability. IMO the only time that sort of thing was achieved was recorded in the Book of Mormon in 4 Nephi. And even that account makes NO MENTION of government of any kind. It was based on love for the Savior and fellow men. ALL ATTEMPTS at man achieving bliss through mutual agreements and laws have failed eventually.

In our day we are oppressed and afflicted by our government leaders, overlords, rulers, and their secret organizations used to enforce compliance with laws, executive orders, Psy Ops, misinformation campaigns, etc., etc.

At this point I want to give a big shout-out to ~ternal-tummim who shared the following links:

https://mises.org/library/constitution-revisited
https://mises.org/library/background-constitution

PLEASE LISTEN TO THESE LINKS! They are about 25 minutes each. The case is made very clearly that the Federalists (Alexander Hamilton, etc.) were very much seeking for power and authority. I also want to state (as the presenter also will) the Declaration of Independence and also to some extent the Articles of Confederation were endorsed by mostly another group of men other than the proponents of the Constitution. Those of you that are familiar with Ron Paul know that he holds the Mises Institute in the HIGHEST regard (https://mises.org).

There are so many scriptures in the Bible and Book of Mormon that makes clear that we are to keep the commandments of our Heavenly King and look for entrance into His kingdom by worship of Him and love for our fellow men. A few of my favorites are:

Isaiah 8:13
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Mosiah 23:7
But he said unto them: Behold, it is not expedient that we should have a king; for thus saith the Lord: Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another; therefore I say unto you it is not expedient that ye should have a king.


Can you think of any scriptures to share on this matter :?:

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nightlight
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by nightlight »

CaptainM wrote: December 6th, 2023, 9:17 am Joseph Smith went on record as saying:

“The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner….”

He also brought forth purported revelations in the D&C that state:

Section 98:5
And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
Section 98:6
Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
Section 101:77
According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
Section 101:80
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
Section 109:54
Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.


I believe Joseph Smith got it wrong, and has caused honorable people much problems through spiritual blindness... What if it really isn't God's intent for us to consider the Constitution as scripture (as ETB exclaimed)? I reiterate as I have done in other posts that JS had one gift, and one gift only: to translate the Book of Mormon (Book of Commandments 4:2). And even in that endeavor he messed up so many things.


Knowing that LDSFF had its origins based around the subject matter at hand; and knowing that there are books, etc., that are proffered as being reliable, I feel a lot of concern. Seeing some responses and information contributed previously, I felt a desire to make this post. You may want to review a previous post I initiated: viewtopic.php?t=72129 for some background.

All through scriptural history (excluding questionable sources like the PoGP, JST, and apocryphal works) humans have struggled to find peace and harmony for any extended periods of time using government as the source of stability. IMO the only time that sort of thing was achieved was recorded in the Book of Mormon in 4 Nephi. And even that account makes NO MENTION of government of any kind. It was based on love for the Savior and fellow men. ALL ATTEMPTS at man achieving bliss through mutual agreements and laws have failed eventually.

In our day we are oppressed and afflicted by our government leaders, overlords, rulers, and their secret organizations used to enforce compliance with laws, executive orders, Psy Ops, misinformation campaigns, etc., etc.

At this point I want to give a big shout-out to ~ternal-tummim who shared the following links:

https://mises.org/library/constitution-revisited
https://mises.org/library/background-constitution

PLEASE LISTEN TO THESE LINKS! They are about 25 minutes each. The case is made very clearly that the Federalists (Alexander Hamilton, etc.) were very much seeking for power and authority. I also want to state (as the presenter also will) the Declaration of Independence and also to some extent the Articles of Confederation were endorsed by mostly another group of men other than the proponents of the Constitution. Those of you that are familiar with Ron Paul know that he holds the Mises Institute in the HIGHEST regard (https://mises.org).

There are so many scriptures in the Bible and Book of Mormon that makes clear that we are to keep the commandments of our Heavenly King and look for entrance into His kingdom by worship of Him and love for our fellow men. A few of my favorites are:

Isaiah 8:13
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Mosiah 23:7
But he said unto them: Behold, it is not expedient that we should have a king; for thus saith the Lord: Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another; therefore I say unto you it is not expedient that ye should have a king.


Can you think of any scriptures to share on this matter :?:
Just saying the principles of the Constitution are not from God is not an argument.

Please explain what you think is not from God in those documents ?

The principles of the Constitution are from God. You don't need to be a seer or prophet to understand this. Lol you speaking your mind is the Constitution

The Constitution is just a document that lays out what a government CANT do

It a negative rights document

The Constitution does not give you your rights , it just keeps the government from restricting them

Obviously anything has the potential to be written better, but I'm talking the idea/principles

The principles of the Constitution&Bill of Rights are in the book of Mormon

10] But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

[11] And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

4Joshua8
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2351

Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by 4Joshua8 »

The Constitution’s Bill of Rights allowed for a bright flash of greatness, however short lived. It is the final flash of liberty before the great tribulation. The last hurrah of freedom before the world faces the worst tyranny in history. This form of government could not stand up against an immoral people; therefore, it crumbles before our eyes.

God has a heavenly kingdom with Eternal laws and principles to keep us all in the right way, and the people are actually deliberately moral and worthy of God's trust. And His land has a border wall with firm requirements to enter. That's the government I want.
Last edited by 4Joshua8 on December 6th, 2023, 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by Shawn Henry »

nightlight wrote: December 6th, 2023, 10:00 am Please explain what you think is not from God in those documents ?
The Satanic parts.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by Shawn Henry »

The constitution exemplifies the principle of opposition in all things. There is sufficient therein for a moral people to maintain a moral society, but it also allows for a corrupt people to impose that corruption downward upon all.

You can't really combine heavenly principles with Satan's religion of Free Masonry.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by Shawn Henry »

"A more perfect union"= All are forced to participate in what those at the top deem a perfect society.

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Shawn Henry
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Posts: 4345

Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by Shawn Henry »

"Promote the general welfare"=take away rights to ensure the safety of the people.

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CaptainM
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Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by CaptainM »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2023, 1:05 pm
nightlight wrote: December 6th, 2023, 10:00 am Please explain what you think is not from God in those documents ?
The Satanic parts.
Thank you Shawn.

It is unbelievable how people who pretend to be honest and honorable will speak against a matter without considering the material of a subject. It reminds me of the BoM scripture:

2 Nephi 9:28
O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.


It has become my experience that anyone who in the slightest suggests that JS isn't the rock of their faith oh how they are hated.

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tmac
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by tmac »

Interesting discussion.

I have no doubt about the divinity of some basic Constitutional principles, based on the fundamental Lawsof Nature, and of Nature’s God.

But I always been intrigued to hear people go on and on about the Constitution, and how flawless and infallible it is, as if it is some kind of magical silver bullet to perfect government.

Under such circumstances, I often ask such people about their view on the Federalist/Anti-federalist debate. That usually stops them cold, and they usually act like they don't even know what I'm talking about. And that usually tells me about all I want to know.

But to CM's point, the draft Constitution that ultimately prevailed at the convention was purely a product of the Federalist agenda. And, even despite the Federalists' withering promotion of their agenda in the subsequent Federalist Papers, the Constitution, as passed at the convention, probably still never would have been ratified, as it was, without introduction of the First 10 Amendments, known generally as the Bill of Rights.

But even with the Bill of Rights, from my perspective (which essentially aligns with Anti-federalist views), the Constitution still has some serious flaws, that now, over the course of going on 250 years, have set things up the way they are now, to provide a recipe for ultimate governmental disaster, with an over-powering, tyrannical federal government, powered primarily by an unbalanced, out-of-control Executive branch.

Despite all the lip service to the contrary, from my perspective, the seeds of ultimate failure were baked into the cake from the outset -- and probably just the way (knowing that it would ultimately fail) God intended.
Last edited by tmac on December 7th, 2023, 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ajax
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by ajax »

The Constitution was a counter revolution, a victory for the nationalists (mis-named Federalists at the time), who sought for greater power (energy) in the national government. They wanted a government that could tax, regulate trade and raise an army, like all other respectable European nations. They weren't getting that under the Articles, and they couldn't stand it. It culminated in grand nationalist Lincoln killing hundreds of thousands to destroy real federalism once and for all.

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TheDuke
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Re: "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner" … Hmm?🤔

Post by TheDuke »

4Joshua8 wrote: December 6th, 2023, 10:11 am God has a heavenly kingdom with Eternal laws and principles to keep us all in the right way, and the people are actually deliberately moral and worthy of God's trust. And His land has a border wall with firm requirements to enter. That's the government I want.
I'm quite sure that you feel what you wrote is true, and it is, but it is not as simple as you might think. Read the scriptures. D&C 88 comes to mind. There is no one set of eternal laws, but many. Some perhaps many are better than the constitution but it doesn't seem like all. As there are laws above and below all other laws. Some worlds have a higher law, some lower. At least that is what god says. So, even the SoP have laws as does god at the other end. Those in this life, replacing our nation in a telestial space will have laws. And the problem isn't the laws, it is the unwillingness to live or judge to them.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same.

35 That which abreaketh a law, and babideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, djustice, nor ejudgment. Therefore, they must remain ffilthy still.

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many akingdoms; for there is no bspace in the which there is no ckingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a alaw; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those aconditions are not bjustified.

40 For aintelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; bwisdom receiveth wisdom; ctruth embraceth truth; dvirtue loveth virtue; elight cleaveth unto light; fmercy hath gcompassion on mercy and claimeth her own; hjustice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

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