Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

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Should tithing stay within the country it's collected in?

Yes
9
28%
No
14
44%
Other (please discuss)
9
28%
 
Total votes: 32
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Niemand
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Posts: 13784

Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Niemand »

What do you think?

My vote goes to other:
I think this applies less to the USA which is huge and collects most of the tithing. But with somewhere like Canada one could argue that Canadian tithing should be used to build up the Canadian church rather than BYU. The catch is that smaller and poorer countries wouldn't get to bring money in whether it was somewhere like Iceland or Tonga... but those countries also shouldn't be exporting their tithing either. In a country like Ireland or Iceland, a lot of the tithing seems to be taken out of the place... I may be wrong.

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ransomme
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Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by ransomme »

I think most of it should stay under local stewardship. Perhaps 10% should go to Church HQ.

If a stake needs help then they should appeal to their fellow stakes and members.

Community should be built up. Aid should be more personal. Members should be more involved.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Wolfwoman »

I’m not sure, so I said other.
If we used tithing to help the poor, then I could still see it both ways.
If it stayed in the country, then people are helping those local to them. I think that’s how it was supposed to be. Us helping those around us. It would help to knit our hearts together in love.
On the other hand, as you said, if it all stays in the country then those who live in poverty stricken countries wouldn’t receive help from people in other countries.
It’s almost obscene to see the difference between a wealthy country and a poor country. I think if we can help, then it’s good to send money or food or whatever over there to help them.
So maybe I’m leaning towards No, but I also see the value of helping those in your own community.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13784

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Niemand »

Wolfwoman wrote: November 4th, 2023, 4:36 am I’m not sure, so I said other.
If we used tithing to help the poor, then I could still see it both ways.
If it stayed in the country, then people are helping those local to them. I think that’s how it was supposed to be. Us helping those around us. It would help to knit our hearts together in love.
On the other hand, as you said, if it all stays in the country then those who live in poverty stricken countries wouldn’t receive help from people in other countries.
It’s almost obscene to see the difference between a wealthy country and a poor country. I think if we can help, then it’s good to send money or food or whatever over there to help them.
So maybe I’m leaning towards No, but I also see the value of helping those in your own community.
I've just been reading a lot recently about Canadian tithing being used to shore up BYU when I think it should be spent within Canada.

In the Republic of Ireland, outside Greater Dublin, it is obvious that the church has little to show for its donations. Iceland is even more extreme – there is very little outside Reykjavik.

Maybe a better model for the USA is for much of the money to be kept in each state (with possible exceptions of smaller ones).

As for the poorer countries — first, most obvious thing, is that locally donated tithing should stay in the country and be used there. Yes, they are collecting less money but costs are also lower. Second, I think there has to be a less colonial model of support and development from outside. Helping people to migrate to another country does not help the economy. Building a well does. Food and goods should also be bought from locally based companies, not given freely from outside (as this prevents the local economy growing).

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

If we burned the existing structure/org to the ground, a truly smoldering pile of ashes, and rebuilt upon a sure foundation of commissioned servants and true doctrine of the tithe, then yes, I think it would be very appropriate to use the tithe to help anyone. But, I might add, a Zion-like society will surely be living the law of consecration and dedicating all that they are to God, which includes loving their neighbor perfectly. All surplus would be shared freely. A tithe is a small part of a Zion-like society.

In some ways, a correct tithe would be for the care and maintenances of houses of worship, which could vary from a mud hut to a beautiful edifice, but only if the poor are cared for. It would also be used to care for the servants who spent their time in helping others come unto the Lord. A true servant would be set apart by the Lord and the people (law of common consent), and give some of their time to preaching the word and helping people perform ordinances. Because this time takes some time away from daily tasks, including growing and gathering food, the people offer a tithe to help them as well as the poor. These poor could include those foreigners who have not covenanted to live the law of consecration. Only those who have covenanted to keep the law of consecration participate in the blessings it provides, otherwise those in need are cared for by a generous tithe.

I believe the Lord does love beauty, but not when it causes covetousness and pride. You’ll notice “fine apparel” almost always precedes the fall of a nation by men and women elevating themselves above another.

IMO, the Lord will do this, but not from the ashes. He will have new wine in new bottles.

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ransomme
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Posts: 3894

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: November 4th, 2023, 5:06 am
Wolfwoman wrote: November 4th, 2023, 4:36 am I’m not sure, so I said other.
If we used tithing to help the poor, then I could still see it both ways.
If it stayed in the country, then people are helping those local to them. I think that’s how it was supposed to be. Us helping those around us. It would help to knit our hearts together in love.
On the other hand, as you said, if it all stays in the country then those who live in poverty stricken countries wouldn’t receive help from people in other countries.
It’s almost obscene to see the difference between a wealthy country and a poor country. I think if we can help, then it’s good to send money or food or whatever over there to help them.
So maybe I’m leaning towards No, but I also see the value of helping those in your own community.
I've just been reading a lot recently about Canadian tithing being used to shore up BYU when I think it should be spent within Canada.

In the Republic of Ireland, outside Greater Dublin, it is obvious that the church has little to show for its donations. Iceland is even more extreme – there is very little outside Reykjavik.

Maybe a better model for the USA is for much of the money to be kept in each state (with possible exceptions of smaller ones).

As for the poorer countries — first, most obvious thing, is that locally donated tithing should stay in the country and be used there. Yes, they are collecting less money but costs are also lower. Second, I think there has to be a less colonial model of support and development from outside. Helping people to migrate to another country does not help the economy. Building a well does. Food and goods should also be bought from locally based companies, not given freely from outside (as this prevents the local economy growing).
Well, the only reason why "Canadian" tithing is spent on BYU is because the Church has to report something, and it figures that it's easy and offers little insight to how tithing as a whole is handled.

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 12972
Location: England

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: November 4th, 2023, 4:17 am What do you think?

My vote goes to other:
I think this applies less to the USA which is huge and collects most of the tithing. But with somewhere like Canada one could argue that Canadian tithing should be used to build up the Canadian church rather than BYU. The catch is that smaller and poorer countries wouldn't get to bring money in whether it was somewhere like Iceland or Tonga... but those countries also shouldn't be exporting their tithing either. In a country like Ireland or Iceland, a lot of the tithing seems to be taken out of the place... I may be wrong.
I think you'll find that Irish tithing stays in Ireland and is topped up from central funds in SLC. Same in most European countries, including the UK.

fractal_light_harvest
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Posts: 669

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by fractal_light_harvest »

I think it should be used to help the poor/needy *among* you/us first. But if none can be located it can be used other places by the vote of common consent of those who’ve paid it. Or the members among *other* branches or congregations of a church can accept the tithes and pay the poor among *them* whether members or not. It shouldn’t be used for non-ecclesiastical things either like to fund secular educational institutions, amass wealth or anything like that. It was paid “by faith, in the spirit” and so should be used “by faith in the spirit” so to say. It is not for secular ventures or businesses.

If there is an opportunity or need to help those in need it should be used, not stockpiled or used in a business way or according to wealth building strategies. It should not be used to “play favorites” or give preferential treatment to anyone person/group in theory. If there is a need it should be used. But it is also for god to try the hearts of those who claim to follow him — to see if they’ll govern themselves to use it in a spiritual way and not for selfish or secular purposes or as “carrot” to manipulate others.

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BenMcCrea
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Posts: 223

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by BenMcCrea »

So here in the UK last year we donated 51.37 million (GBP) to the Church but the UK Church spent 54.47 million - so Church HQ is topping us up.
Last edited by BenMcCrea on November 4th, 2023, 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gkearney
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Posts: 5304

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by gkearney »

In many nations, Australia for example, it is a legal requirement.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by SJR3t2 »

Tithes should stay local.

Deuteronomy 26:12 hen thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

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Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8977
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by Silver Pie »

I voted "other" because I think it should stay in the congregation where it was donated, to help the poor in that congregation - and if they have extra, the ward should get together and decide what to do with the extra money.

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FrankOne
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Posts: 2716

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by FrankOne »

I imagine the question could be rephrased to:

"Is it wrong that the Church distributes tithing to different countries other than their origin?"

My answer would be "no". They are a corporation that bears no resemblance to the Church of Christ. As a registered and legal Corporation They can do as they will with the tithing paid by those that blindly decide to give it to them. It's just the world as it is. Men being men. Leaders (entertainers) and perfectly willing paid subscribers. It's a bit comical really.

More temples will continue to entertain the masses.

Tithing is a sacrifice to help those in need. A gift that blesses both the giver and receiver. Given to a money changer, it becomes prostitution.

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thaabit
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Posts: 231
Location: Utah

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by thaabit »

Everything should stay as local as possible, imho.

Edit:
I believe this is how it used to work. Excess tithes from the ward went to the stake, and excess stake funds went to HQ. Now it all goes to the top and trickles down. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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MikeMaillet
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Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by MikeMaillet »

I voted other and share many of the sentiments expressed in previous comments. The biggest problem with tithing is that it has been monetized. This should never have happened.

Mike

A Disciple
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Posts: 380

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by A Disciple »

"The biggest problem with tithing is that it has been monetized."

I agree in principle but for me the issue is not the dollars and cents, it is that there is no Accountability on the part of the person receiving the tithing. It is not just that the Church leadership literally hides what they do with tithing funds it is that the leadership has stripped local congregations of their Agency in how tithing is used. This violation of Accountability and of Agency corrupts what is a sacred principle. Tithing in the modern LDS church has become nothing more than the price of admission to the club of of more privileged members. For while the leadership talk about the "widows mite" to justify the sacrifice of tithing they make a mockery of the "widows mite".

The LDS leadership has greatly corrupted Tithing by making the doctrine all about a proof of faithfulness. Let's say that was the case. Then ask yourself. If Tithing is not actually needed by the Church, but is only a Test of Loyalty to the Church, THEN WHERE DO THE TITHING FUNDS GO? Does leadership really think that it is so important for members to pay tithing, but so unimportant that tithing be spent, that God's answer is for them to run a massive hedge fund (aka "rainy day fund")?

It is ridiculous. It is obscene. But that is where we are because of the corruption of the sacred principle of Tithing.

And note how the "rainy day fund" excuse violates God's most basic instruction to his Disciples, Where Jesus instructed: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. " and "So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." (NIV translation)

A Disciple
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Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by A Disciple »

The Lords commandment for Tithing is that it is to be used to Build up Zion. If we accept section 119 of the Doctrine of Covenants as the Lord's Law then we must accept the Lord's condition for Tithing: "And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you."

The building of Temples is a work of Zion. It is not Zion. It especially is not the building of Zion when the work is contracted out, wherein the main sacrifice of the Saints is to donate shares of stock they own of the corporations of Babylon, or click a button on an app on their phone. In line with what MikeMaillet shared, the Financialization of Zion is a counterfeit of Zion. For Zion is NOT simply the transfer of wealth from members to church leadership. Zion is all encompassing of a people learning to put their Trust in God, to Love God with all their Hearts, and to love their Neighbor as they Love Themselves.

How do we build Zion? First, we recognize we have to have skin in the game. We can't simply donate money to be spent in unknown ways and "salve our conscience". We need to have Agency for how our resources our used and we need to have Accountability for exercising that Agency wisely. The LDS church up until the 1980s gave local members Agency and Accountability in the direct funding and operation of their congregations. That condition no longer exists. What we have now is the same method of benevolence practiced by Babylon. It is that money is collected from individuals and held by persons far removed. These persons in their far removed location then decide who gets a portion of money collected with many strings attached for how can be spent.

Zion can only be built up on the Principles of Righteousness. The methods of Babylon will never bring about the Faith and Righteousness sufficient to build Zion.

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MikeMaillet
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Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: Poll: Should tithing stay within a country?

Post by MikeMaillet »

A few days ago in another discussion I posted these verses from the book of Mahnti found in the Nemenhah Record. Verse 5 describes tithing. These verses also remind me of 4 Nephi where the people had everything in common and there were no poor nor were there any rich. The sooner we get rid of that filthy money and learn how to live without it the happier we will be. How many times have we heard the expression "fire insurance" when speaking about tithing. It is absolute blasphemy to think that we can buy our way into heaven.

Mike

Chapter 9

2. Now, I do take seriously the words of Timothy. Wherefore I felt to add unto this record a more clear vision of the manner in which the Nemenhah do live the Law of Consecration. Behold, this is the manner of it:
3. Each family maintains a plot of ground within the city of Mentinah itself. And when a young man and woman engage themselves to each other to be married, the Community Council meets to appoint a place for them. In this we strictly follow the ways and customs of the Ammonihah as laid down in the writings of the prophet Shi-Tugohah.
4. On this ground the family of the bride and groom, but more usually the brothers of the groom, labor together to build a house sufficient to meet the needs of the family. Now, this is not always so. For, sometimes the groom has few or no brothers, and in this case the family of the bride, and even the whole community, steps in to build the house. But there has never been an instance where a new bride and groom have had to begin their lives together in a homeless state.
5. Around about this house, the family sows those plants that are useful for food and which may be grown in sufficient quantity in this manner. Each family is careful to grow more food than is needed by them alone so that there is a surplus of food from their garden. Now, because each family does this, there is always an overabundance of such fresh food in the season thereof, as also of that amount of foodstuffs as may be safely preserved against the day of cold.
6. Each family also labors in some industry which can be done at home. Some put up garden foods to be used by the community in the day of cold. Others prepare dyes and colors from the same produce. Still others labor to provide seeds for subsequent seasons. Yet others prepare many items of common use from the fibers of the plants. Many concentrate their efforts in producing those plants that are especially needed because they provide medicine for the removal of the causes of disease.
7. But this is not all. Many families maintain workshops where goods of common use of all kinds are manufactured. These goods range in kind from the smallest and most inconsequential to the largest tools used by the smiths and mechanics. All these goods are consumables used commonly either directly by the families or by those engaged in larger industries. All of our tools are produced by families in the communities.
8. All of these things are produced by the members of the family, both young and old, depending upon their age and their capacity. And behold, they are not produced for the purpose of getting gain, but are exchanged for goods produced by other families. As there is always a surplus, it is brought to the storehouse and distributed liberally and without constrain unto all those who may need such things.
9. Now, there are many kinds of foods the growing of which is not suited for the small family holding. These things are produced on large tracts of land which do surround the city. Such things as grains of all kinds, cattle, and those plants we use for fibers for the making of cloth, especially linens, are grown outside the city. And behold, all the people go out in turns to work that crop which must be worked, or to labor in caring for livestock. All these things are brought into the city in the time of its harvest and are distributed liberally unto all that might have need of them. The surplus is held in storage and is used in trade with other cities and is exchanged for such things as may not be produced here. The surplus goods are traded equally for goods brought in the caravans from other cities of the Nemenhah, as well as other peoples with whom the city of Mentinah does hold commerce. In this way, we maintain a constant state of association with all the Nemenhah in all parts of the land, as well as with our brethren in the Land Southward, and with other places in the world.
10. The Nemenhah of Mentinah understand that many people in many places do consider themselves the owners of the land upon which they sojourn, and behold, that is their right, for we would not constrain any person to believe as we do. But, the Nemenhah do not consider themselves the owners of the land, but rather, we are stewards of the Lord‟s footstool. This has been our way since the inception of our city, yea, even since the first of our people left the settlements of Hagoth and resorted into our place of fastness. And it pleases me to say that, for the most part, all of the Nemenhah both of the mountains and of the plains, as well as the Nemenhah of Corianton, do so consider themselves.
11. For, how may a man think to own the earth? How may he possess that which is the Lord‟s? Will a man rob God? It is not to be considered. Nevertheless, we know that many peoples of the earth have different ideas than ours and we seek to constrain no one in their thought.
12. But behold, all men and women of the Nemenhah are made equal stewards of the land and no person may dictate to another the stewardship of another. When a family is appointed to steward a holding, their neighbors leave them to it and do not seek to manage what is not their stewardship. If a family neglects their stewardship, the matter is taken up by the Community Council, but no individual ever takes such things upon themselves. But, whereas every family labors diligently for their own support and for the surplus that is to be given unto others, there have been no such cases of neglect, except where there has been incapacity.
13. Now, the Nemenhah take some pride in the beauty of their city, and this might be considered sin in the eyes of some. But it is true. The city of Mentinah is a beautiful place because of the great care with which every family does manage their stewardship, and I can think of no great harm in taking pride in such things.

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