Merry CHRISTmas 2023

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
CaptainM
captain of 100
Posts: 639
Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by CaptainM »

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceeding fair and white. And it came to pass that I saw the Heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he saith unto me, Nephi, what beholdest thou? And I saith unto him, a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins. And he saith  unto me, Knowest thou the condescention of God? And I said unto him, I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh. And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the spirit; and after that she had been carried away in the spirit for the space of a time, the angel spake unto me, saying, look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! (Book of Mormon - Original, page 18)

IMO … the true “Good News” (Gospel) for 2023. Your thoughts?

User avatar
Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5305
Location: SEKS

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Cruiserdude »

CaptainM wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 6:56 am
And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceeding fair and white. And it came to pass that I saw the Heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he saith unto me, Nephi, what beholdest thou? And I saith unto him, a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins. And he saith  unto me, Knowest thou the condescention of God? And I said unto him, I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh. And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the spirit; and after that she had been carried away in the spirit for the space of a time, the angel spake unto me, saying, look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! (Book of Mormon - Original, page 18)

IMO … the true “Good News” (Gospel) for 2023. Your thoughts?
No greater message for the world.

User avatar
TheChristian
captain of 100
Posts: 680

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by TheChristian »

Amen, God the Everlasting Father manifest in the flesh............

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Blessed is the name of "Jesus" forever more!

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8977
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Silver Pie »

CaptainM wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 6:56 am And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceeding fair and white. And it came to pass that I saw the Heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he saith unto me, Nephi, what beholdest thou? And I saith unto him, a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins. And he saith  unto me, Knowest thou the condescention of God? And I said unto him, I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh. And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the spirit; and after that she had been carried away in the spirit for the space of a time, the angel spake unto me, saying, look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! (Book of Mormon - Original, page 18)

IMO … the true “Good News” (Gospel) for 2023. Your thoughts?
I find it quite interesting that the angel asks Nephi what he sees, then asks him if he knows the condescension of God. Nephi essentially says no, then the angel talks about Mary - and later about Jesus. Both are God come down in the flesh, it would appear. The Mother to give birth to her Son and raise him, and the Lamb to come to save us from our sins and from death.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2236
Contact:

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by SJR3t2 »

After Lamoni was converted to the truth, he did not participate in the feast/holiday of his father. Lamoni told his father why, and was surprised that his father did not agree with him but was actually angry with him. Lamoni father not only told him to separate himself who taught him these truths, but to kill him, and went off on a rant how what Ammon taught was a lie. This is very typical of what happens when someone converts to the truth and lets go of the pagan holidays.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/31/lett ... -holidays/

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10264
Contact:

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by marc »

SJR3t2 wrote: December 4th, 2023, 1:15 am After Lamoni was converted to the truth, he did not participate in the feast/holiday of his father. Lamoni told his father why, and was surprised that his father did not agree with him but was actually angry with him. Lamoni father not only told him to separate himself who taught him these truths, but to kill him, and went off on a rant how what Ammon taught was a lie. This is very typical of what happens when someone converts to the truth and lets go of the pagan holidays.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/31/lett ... -holidays/
To be fair, Lamoni knew Ammon's power in the Lord to free his brothers. I believe that Lamoni's motivation was primarily to hasten with Ammon and to persuade the other king to release them without Ammon needing to demonstrate his power in the Lord necessary to free them without the friendly face of Lamoni. His father's reaction to Ammon along the way and Ammon's swift reply demonstrated Lamoni's concerns easily. The feast just happened to be the story's pretext.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2236
Contact:

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by SJR3t2 »

marc wrote: December 4th, 2023, 8:09 am
SJR3t2 wrote: December 4th, 2023, 1:15 am After Lamoni was converted to the truth, he did not participate in the feast/holiday of his father. Lamoni told his father why, and was surprised that his father did not agree with him but was actually angry with him. Lamoni father not only told him to separate himself who taught him these truths, but to kill him, and went off on a rant how what Ammon taught was a lie. This is very typical of what happens when someone converts to the truth and lets go of the pagan holidays.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/31/lett ... -holidays/
To be fair, Lamoni knew Ammon's power in the Lord to free his brothers. I believe that Lamoni's motivation was primarily to hasten with Ammon and to persuade the other king to release them without Ammon needing to demonstrate his power in the Lord necessary to free them without the friendly face of Lamoni. His father's reaction to Ammon along the way and Ammon's swift reply demonstrated Lamoni's concerns easily. The feast just happened to be the story's pretext.
That is your interpretation, these people had the Brass Plates / Tanak / OT which states not to do feasts based on how pagans worshipped their false gods. And we know that Laman and Lamuel justified the evil deeds of the people of where they left.

Part of not learning the ways of the nations is to not do them, not to teach them, and not to promote them.
Jeremiah 10:2 This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by the signs in the heavens, though the nations themselves are terrified by them.
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4345

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Shawn Henry »

CaptainM wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 6:56 am the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh
The pre-apostate original, I love it! Why have transfigured the holy word of God to read the mother of the Son of God?

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4345

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Shawn Henry »

Silver Pie wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 10:16 pm Both are God
I'm definitely not seeing that in the text.

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8868
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by BeNotDeceived »


Exceedingly fair and white.

Maybe Elizabeth was right. :lol:

User avatar
tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4418
Location: Reality

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by tmac »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 4th, 2023, 11:52 am
Silver Pie wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 10:16 pm Both are God
I'm definitely not seeing that in the text.
But, is it not possible?

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4345

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Shawn Henry »

tmac wrote: December 9th, 2023, 9:04 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 4th, 2023, 11:52 am
Silver Pie wrote: December 3rd, 2023, 10:16 pm Both are God
I'm definitely not seeing that in the text.
But, is it not possible?
Possible sure, but neither that text nor any other even hints at Mary being a God. Jesus would not have to remind her that he is about his Father's business if she was anywhere close to being a God.

User avatar
tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4418
Location: Reality

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by tmac »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 10th, 2023, 6:28 pm
tmac wrote: December 9th, 2023, 9:04 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 4th, 2023, 11:52 am
I'm definitely not seeing that in the text.
But, is it not possible?
Possible sure, but neither that text nor any other even hints at Mary being a God. Jesus would not have to remind her that he is about his Father's business if she was anywhere close to being a God.
Fair point. But that observation raises other, similar questions about Christ’s own Godly omniscience and omnipotence in this mortal world. If He was a fully developed, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent god from the outset, and throughout His “mortal” life, how could/would He grow and develop grace to grace as a youth? I certainly don’t pretend to understand it all, or to have all the answers, but certainly if the veil had not been involved to some extent, from the outset, things might have been different for both of them, and Mary would not have needed an angel to explain to her what was going to happen either.

But is it not possible that Mary was a god who experienced a mortal condescension? If she was not a god then, is she a god now?

I realize that you put no stock in section 132, but if Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are on their immortal thrones, what about Mary?

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3882

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by ransomme »

tmac wrote: December 11th, 2023, 5:52 am
Shawn Henry wrote: December 10th, 2023, 6:28 pm
tmac wrote: December 9th, 2023, 9:04 pm

But, is it not possible?
Possible sure, but neither that text nor any other even hints at Mary being a God. Jesus would not have to remind her that he is about his Father's business if she was anywhere close to being a God.
Fair point. But that observation raises other, similar questions about Christ’s own Godly omniscience and omnipotence in this mortal world. If He was a fully developed, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent god from the outset, and throughout His “mortal” life, how could/would He grow and develop grace to grace as a youth? I certainly don’t pretend to understand it all, or to have all the answers, but certainly if the veil had not been involved to some extent, from the outset, things might have been different for both of them, and Mary would not have needed an angel to explain to her what was going to happen either.

But is it not possible that Mary was a god who experienced a mortal condescension? If she was not a god then, is she a god now?

I realize that you put no stock in section 132, but if Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are on their immortal thrones, what about Mary?
per 132 she would simply be one of many. Really in that context, what's just one woman? Six of these a half dozen of the other.

User avatar
tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4418
Location: Reality

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by tmac »

Once again, fair enough. It seems to be simply impossible for some people not to try to get those kinds of digs in. But it doesn’t help answer any questions.

According to the narrative, God the father has many, many children, but only one person/god condescended as the Savior. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that God has multiple wives, but only one condescended as the mortal mother of the Savior?

Like I’ve said before, I have more questions than answers. I don’t pretend to have many answers.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4345

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Shawn Henry »

tmac wrote: December 11th, 2023, 5:52 am Fair point. But that observation raises other, similar questions about Christ’s own Godly omniscience and omnipotence in this mortal world. If He was a fully developed, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent god from the outset, and throughout His “mortal” life, how could/would He grow and develop grace to grace as a youth? I certainly don’t pretend to understand it all, or to have all the answers, but certainly if the veil had not been involved to some extent, from the outset, things might have been different for both of them, and Mary would not have needed an angel to explain to her what was going to happen either.

But is it not possible that Mary was a god who experienced a mortal condescension? If she was not a god then, is she a god now?

I realize that you put no stock in section 132, but if Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are on their immortal thrones, what about Mary?
Good questions, idk, but I suspect his growing from grace to grace is simply a reference to him being veiled and his exercising of faith to pierce the veil incrementally, line upon line, and also him being limited by the physical flesh and having to wait for his physical brain to fully develop.

I know the term 'advanced soul' is not a doctrinal expression, but it does seem many of the greats like Abraham and Mary are far ahead of us in development, growth, and faith and one could indeed say that they are close to godhood. The problem I have with saying that Jesus attained unto Godhood is simply that the BoM is quite clear that he was God from the beginning of eternity. To say he had a starting point or beginning is contrary to the BoM narrative. Will this all be expounded upon later, well, of course, but for now I feel the priority is loyalty to the most correct book. Does it seem weird to me that that would make Jesus an entirely different being or species than we are, yes, a little. Will the truth eventually show how both are true? Maybe, and I pray for more to be revealed, but for now I believe fully the BoM.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8977
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Merry CHRISTmas 2023

Post by Silver Pie »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 10th, 2023, 6:28 pm Possible sure, but neither that text nor any other even hints at Mary being a God. Jesus would not have to remind her that he is about his Father's business if she was anywhere close to being a God.
If she had the veil of forgetfulness that we all have, she wouldn't remember she was a God.

And she was worried sick when he disappeared. If my kid had disappeared under those circumstances, and I finally found him - no matter where I found him - I would probably have said what she did, even if I knew his real father was God.

How would she know that this kid who was so distracted and 12-year-old-like that he didn't bother telling his mother that he wasn't coming with them yet had stayed behind to "be about [his] father's business"? How would she magically know that's what he was doing if she was here as a mortal? Why would it occur to her that he was teaching in the temple (or asking questions) instead of that some harm had come to him?

Also, Mary being the Mother God solves the issue many people have about God the Father mating with someone who was not his wife. I believe she most likely was his wife, who condescended to come down to this earth, much like many others may have done.

I think that many prophets may also have been part of the Council of the Gods who created the plan and the earth so that "these may dwell thereon."

Post Reply