First Vision vs. Book of Mormon

[Shawn Henry]

Alright Shawn, if you will now answer my question, I will go more in depth on what you are saying. And my question is, how and when did God create you? Also, it helps if you want to assert a scriptural claim, you give the scripture you are referring to (in your case Book of M.).

I think we'll both agree we were not created, that we always existed.

There are numerous references to God always being God, but here is one from Mosiah 3:5.

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay,

And Mosiah 16:15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Also, in Alma 11 Zeezrom asks Amulek: "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"

"And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"

How was he "the very Eternal Father" with a capital E and capital F at a time when he just our older brother who hadn't yet overcome a single sin or set foot in a mortal body?

It is plain to see that this is the very thing that Zeezrom is asking, is Jesus also God the Father. Why would Amulek mislead him and not simply say no he is just the Son of the very Eternal Father, but he will sort of be our Father one day?

[kirtland r.m.]

Alright Shawn, if you will now answer my question, I will go more in depth on what you are saying. And my question is, how and when did God create you? Also, it helps if you want to assert a scriptural claim, you give the scripture you are referring to (in your case Book of M.).

I think we'll both agree we were not created, that we always existed.

There are numerous references to God always being God, but here is one from Mosiah 3:5.

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay,

And Mosiah 16:15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Also, in Alma 11 Zeezrom asks Amulek: "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"

"And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"

How was he "the very Eternal Father" with a capital E and capital F at a time when he just our older brother who hadn't yet overcome a single sin or set foot in a mortal body?

It is plain to see that this is the very thing that Zeezrom is asking, is Jesus also God the Father. Why would Amulek mislead him and not simply say no he is just the Son of the very Eternal Father, but he will sort of be our Father one day?

Thanks for the post, and we will just have to agree to disagree on the beginnings of the Godhead, though what you have said about intelligences being eternal I know is spot on. I realize that a lot of scripture could be more plain and easier to understand. Some even seems to somewhat contradict other scripture (much possibly. due to the focus at the time for example in what part of the gospel Apostles were trying to emphasize in epistles to certain groups like works verses grace). I will be right in the front of the line saying more clarification on some things would solve much misunderstanding. Still, it is what it is, and must be read by the spirit, and perhaps the Lord would say, much of it is sufficient for my purposes at this time. That is my opinion for now, and I believe it is true.

[Teancum1]

I wish these discussions would be held in priesthood meetings or Sunday school. Alas- so few in the church even read the Book of Mormon much less believe what it is saying. The milk taught in the church for the last 40 years has kept the average member blind and dumb to seeking truth.

The above discussion by Kirtland r.m. and Shawn was awesome! I long for open discussion of doctrine. The church however cannot allow such thought or discussion for it threatens their authority.

Truth is to be found after pondering, soul searching, prayer and seeking the Holy Spirit.

It is not to be found from a correlated manual that purposefully omits scriptures that call into question the watchmen, lolling seers, blind dogs. Sadly they want us to consume their vomit.

[kirtland r.m.]

I wish these discussions would be held in priesthood meetings or Sunday school. Alas- so few in the church even read the Book of Mormon much less believe what it is saying. The milk taught in the church for the last 40 years has kept the average member blind and dumb to seeking truth.

The above discussion by Kirtland r.m. and Shawn was awesome! I long for open discussion of doctrine. The church however cannot allow such thought or discussion for it threatens their authority.

Truth is to be found after pondering, soul searching, prayer and seeking the Holy Spirit.

It is not to be found from a correlated manual that purposefully omits scriptures that call into question the watchmen, lolling seers, blind dogs. Sadly they want us to consume their vomit.

Thanks much Teancum1!