Where do you stand on the idea that John Taylor and Willard Richards plotted to have the Smiths murdered?

[Luke]

You have direct evidence to suggest that Joseph was killed by the mob?

Uh… yes.

The mob members all saying that they did it — a smoking gun if you’ll pardon the pun.

[Telavian]

Uh… yes.

The mob members all saying that they did it — a smoking gun if you’ll pardon the pun.

I guess you have never heard anyone claim to do something they didn't do in order to gain clout.
I also asked for direct evidence and this is hearsay at best.

[larsenb]

I find it difficult to swallow that those two "murdered" the brothers. However, I can easily buy that they 'conspired' to assist in some manner. I think Taylor was hit by "friendly fire," maybe. There has been so much of the kill room removed and covered over and altered, it is all but impossible to get an even remotely solid forensics study. From the floor boards that were blood stained to the door to the room being removed to parts unknown to mysteriously be found in a barn in Missouri 100 years AFTER the murders, to the sheer lack of knowledge of what weapons were in truth used, from where the rounds were fired and the absolutely dismal understanding of forensics ANYTHING back then.

Now, all that being said, there is 100% NO WAY that any definitive conclusion that would stand up in even a democrap court of guilt on anyone that was there. Why? Because there is NO possible way to conclude who shot boo WITHOUT the bodies of the brothers. The family emphatically denies ALL requests to exhume them. In fact, there is NO proof that they are actually buried in Nauvoo, on the grounds of the Smith home. They were buried and dug up several times from the time of the murders until the turn of the 20th Century, more or less. They were buried, dug up and reburied side by side, is there a certainty that they have not been mixed up or even switched out for someone else all together???

From Justin's investigation which was quite good actually for a NON investigator, and based on what the WRITTEN statements were, the stonewalling by Church historical curators and several other entities, he was left with conducting forensic testing the best he could with what he had and knew. There were several retired investigators that either assisted or consulted with the testing Justin performed. Now, I am not defending him here, nor am I saying he was/is wrong. I am merely trying to point out and objective argument for neither side.

Based on my personal decades long experience with police investigations, I would walk into this murder and say,
"oh crap! We have our work cut out for us." The State of Illinois could theoretically re-open the murder investigation, which would lead to the exhumation of the brothers. That, and only that, would lay a true foundation for a complete forensic investigation. But there is one itty bitty fly in the ointment; are the bodies buried on the Smith family property in Nauvoo, Illinois the actual brothers? Are their skeletons still intact and complete? Are the pieces of the skulls that took direct hits by presumably .60 or perhaps a .30ish caliber round still in place, or at least with the skulls? If not, can plaster or jello molds be cast to properly fill in the wound channel? Then there are the other itty bitty details...

Where EXACTLY were the brothers standing? Were they upright, crouched, diving for cover? How could Richards possibly know where they were standing, since he was hiding behind the door? Was there another firearm in the room, as has been speculated? If so, where was it, and who had it? The story about the rounds coming in from outside like hail or fireflies, was that even possible? Why did Taylor say and then stick to the story that his pocket watch took a direct it when that was forensically impossible? Why were Taylor and Richards left alive IF the mob was as large and worked up as reported?

In order for anyone in the room to be hit by rounds from outside in the yard, they would have to have been standing almost on the window ledge or within a foot or so of the window and would have been perfectly still. Now, IF anyone in that room attempted to jump from it or if they were directly in front of the window during the attack, then I could easily swallow the hail of bullets. But, where are the impact craters inside the room? 'Oh, they were plastered over and souvenir hunters digging the balls out damaged large portions of the ceiling and walls...' If the souvenir hunters did in fact "dig" out the balls, there would be significant damage that would destroy any possible forensic type investigation of the day, but ONLY IF the Sheriff had desired to investigate the murders to that extent. There might be some lead particles left behind to be found today, anywhere inside the room. The door is a HUGE stumbling block, however, because it was totally removed by said souvenir hunters and NO ONE had a clue as to where it went. Then roughly a hundred years later, it shows up in a barn in another state, where it showed significant damages from the "rounds" as well as damages to the hole, perpetrated by those same 'hunters.' At this point in time, all there or ever can be is conjecture and speculation. Narratives can paint most any picture that can lead to a claim or refutation of a claim. Either scenario is as likely as the other.

There was motive, oh yes indeed there was motive. There was means, absolutely there was means. There was, most definitely, opportunity. But for who and why? Joseph was arrested on a semi valid legal and lawful charge. Hyrum just went along in hopes of defending his brother or dying with his brother. The brothers had many visitors from the time of their arrival until they hit the floor. At least one gun was brought into them. Joseph knew there was a conspiracy afoot to remove him, either by putting him in prison forever or killing him. He in all likelihood knew who, at least, some of the conspirators were. He definitely knew who a few of them were, and he was crushed by that knowledge.

In order to get a clear picture of why it all happened, and to determine IF there was an inside conspiracy, and perhaps even who they were, we have to back up a ways. The list of Joseph's enemies on the inside of the Church was long and growing longer. But why? Almost all of Joseph's enemies, from inside, were such, because they had been excommunicated by Joseph for a handful of reasons. Adultery, being one of the biggest, claiming authority that they did not have in order to deceive, was another biggie and there were several others related to the faith's rules.

Joseph and Hyrum were almost all the way across the Mississippi River when they were abruptly halted by a messenger from Emma that devastated Joseph. But, what was in that letter? Whatever it was lead him to the famous statement about, his life, not being of worth. That piece, right there, tells me as an investigator that NAMES were in that letter and that there was likely a plot afoot to remove him as PSR or kill him, and it would be from the very people he trusted most in his inner circle. Why else would he turn around when, freedom and sanctuary were mere yards away? We have to keep in mind, the Mississippi was NOT that wide in those days. Likely there were conspirators on the other side waiting for him as well. He could have simply rowed around the danger on the other side, that's why I think it was more of whom those names were that broke his heart and will. So, he turned the boat around, and headed back to meet his fate.

This is NOT about whether or not Joe had multiple wives, that's another point of history that really can not be proven one way or another without written documentation of the type that will stand up in court. Journal entries are NOT proof, especially when said entries were made long after the deaths of the brothers.

Ok I will stop with this, because I could spend a lot of time picking apart how and or why Richards and Taylor were guilty of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, or not. It simply can never be proven and without the bodies of the brothers, it will remain an impossibility to even prove where the kill shots came from. AS IN location, we will never know for sure the answer to who shot boo on that terrible day in 1844.

Thanks. This is pretty much what I’ve been trying to convey in my myriad posts. I appreciate your thoughts and efforts in producing this. Now, I don't expect you to reply to what I've written below. It's just my counterpoint to some of the points you made, put forth for anyone interested who read your post.

I would take exception to a few of your points. The first that Taylor was hit be friendly fire. My sense is that both Richards and Taylor were basically on the same page regarding what happened. They were recounting what they experienced, though Taylor may have reinforced his later account by referring to Willard’s earlier accounts. A starting point for any investigation has to be the direct witnesses to the event being investigated. You have to start out by giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Even their description of Hyrum’s back shot and the ensuing mystery of little blood, has cleared up for me after discussing it with my RN wife, who gave good reasons for the back-through-the-body wound was the likely kill shot, which almost immediately stopped the heart and brought blood pressure to zero; coupled with the idea that venous blood moves primarily by action of the leg calf muscles and the lungs. Someone goes down and with their lungs probably punctured/blown out, you’ve removed the compelling force for the flow of this blood.

Now Justin’s study may appear reliable based on what he was dealing with, but he still ‘pushed’ data beyond what could be reasonably claimed for it. His claim of proof of more than two guns is an example of this, and there are more.

Where you asked the question of how Richards could know where the others were standing due to his hiding behind the door, for this to be true the door would have had to be open to a large degree, but there is no evidence or witness testimony this was the case.

And your statement about someone having to be standing w/in a foot of the window ledge and being perfectly still seems like a stretch. Did you see the pictures of the windows in the earlier thread? Richards said Hyrum stepped back from the door about 2/3rds the width of the room (~15 ft wide). If true, this would have placed him about 5 ft from the east window which had a lower sill height of about 2ft. The shot to Hyrum’s back was judged by the holes in his clothes to be about 4 ft above the floor. Do the geometry. A person standing outside and shooting a rifle/hand-gun from about 5 ft above the ground could easily skirt the sill and hit Hyrum at this point. The sill from my estimate, was about 13 ft above the ground. And the shot is more probable the further back the shooter would be standing.

The other issue with this is that the shot wasn’t necessarily aimed. It could have been a random shot through the window and got Hyrum because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And I finally found a picture of the east window. Close inspection reveals what appears to be spalling along its right side (upper and lower). The spalling could have been facilitated by earlier projectile impacts. And looking below the lower sill, shows what could be impact marks. Finally, the Lyon report (as I recall) said the lower sill was replaced.
Maybe due to severe impact damage??

And once again, with feeling. Taylor said he initially had no idea why he was knocked back in the room. It was only later he caught on to the idea of a ball hitting his watch and knocking him back in. He was grasping at straws, and this idea stuck; whether he thought of it or it was suggested to him because of the damage to his watch, minimal as it was. Why people are so quick to impugn his motives and testimony is a mystery to me.

And your mentioning that there was indeed motive, is a kind of gloss. Why? Because it rather implies that WR and JT had a motive to do what they allegedly did. There is absolutely no proof of this. Mere speculation, very similar to the speculation about WR and JT killing the Smiths.

And of course JS knew people were out to kill him and this was evident 2-3 months before 27 June. Dan Jones outlines the threats in his rather amazing account of those days, and recounts the time a man name “Foster rushed toward JS with a loaded revolver, and when he was within a foot from his breast and about to shoot Joseph saved his life by grabbing the revolver and taking it from him; there were others who threatened to shoot him” as well. This was in April of ’44.

Your idea about Emma’s letter is interesting. Not quite the way I remembered this ‘turning back’ of Joseph to Nauvoo. I would have to research it. But as you know, pure speculation to think the letter named Willard or Taylor. Very strange that JS would have allowed them to accompany him to Carthage, if he had known anything like this.

[larsenb]

I wish people would talk about the real motive that plagued the saints since Kirtland, making bogus!

I agree. What motive are you thinking about with your statement?

Making bogus!

That was a term used for making counterfeit money.

The guys who wanted to counterfeit would have to find a printing press. The church always needed a printing press so these guys flocked to them. Because of the forgiving love that one “should” have these conmen do very well around “Mormons”. Even today they succeed in Utah better then anywhere else.

Dan Jones gets into this at the very start of his account of the days surrounding the martyrdom. His account is found in BYU Studies. Quoted below:

"There was some clan of hypocritical rascals in nauvoo who were accused of thefts, making bad money and the like; but proofs of their guilt could not be found for a time, which caused Joseph Smith to make known that he would give a $500 reward to anyone who could bring sufficient proofs against them to enable him to put an end to their misdeeds. Some of them were nominal members of the church, and sufficient witnesses were obtained to excommunicate eight or ten of those supposed to be guilty. Joseph Smith's diligence and determination caused the city to be cleansed completely from such rascals and also caused their curses to be poured out upon him.

They would frequently attack him cruelly and threaten his life so that he had to keep a watch around his house at night. In April 1844, some of these avengers gathered at Joseph Smiths house, and I heard them reproving and maligning maligning him cruelly and unreasonably with severe threats, admitting that it was only out of his opposition to them and because he had excommunicated them, In spite of everything, he did not return their threats; rather he reasoned kindly with them, exhorting them to leave their wicked way."

[larsenb]

Uh… yes.

The mob members all saying that they did it — a smoking gun if you’ll pardon the pun.

I guess you have never heard anyone claim to do something they didn't do in order to gain clout.
I also asked for direct evidence and this is hearsay at best.

There are numerous, numerous witnesses to the murderous attitude displayed by members of the mob, its instigators and even witnesses to and confessions of those who claimed to prop JS up against the wall to shoot him dead.

Just read Dan Jones' account (BYU Studies) to get the flavor of this to include the intent of mob members, and its hangers on, and the murderous intent against Smith months before the assassination. Jones had several encounters in his comings and goings in and out of Carthage, and Quincy and Warsaw Illinois where his life was threatened, and/or he encountered this murderous attitude.

[Robin Hood]

I find it difficult to swallow that those two "murdered" the brothers. However, I can easily buy that they 'conspired' to assist in some manner. I think Taylor was hit by "friendly fire," maybe. There has been so much of the kill room removed and covered over and altered, it is all but impossible to get an even remotely solid forensics study. From the floor boards that were blood stained to the door to the room being removed to parts unknown to mysteriously be found in a barn in Missouri 100 years AFTER the murders, to the sheer lack of knowledge of what weapons were in truth used, from where the rounds were fired and the absolutely dismal understanding of forensics ANYTHING back then.

Now, all that being said, there is 100% NO WAY that any definitive conclusion that would stand up in even a democrap court of guilt on anyone that was there. Why? Because there is NO possible way to conclude who shot boo WITHOUT the bodies of the brothers. The family emphatically denies ALL requests to exhume them. In fact, there is NO proof that they are actually buried in Nauvoo, on the grounds of the Smith home. They were buried and dug up several times from the time of the murders until the turn of the 20th Century, more or less. They were buried, dug up and reburied side by side, is there a certainty that they have not been mixed up or even switched out for someone else all together???

From Justin's investigation which was quite good actually for a NON investigator, and based on what the WRITTEN statements were, the stonewalling by Church historical curators and several other entities, he was left with conducting forensic testing the best he could with what he had and knew. There were several retired investigators that either assisted or consulted with the testing Justin performed. Now, I am not defending him here, nor am I saying he was/is wrong. I am merely trying to point out and objective argument for neither side.

Based on my personal decades long experience with police investigations, I would walk into this murder and say,
"oh crap! We have our work cut out for us." The State of Illinois could theoretically re-open the murder investigation, which would lead to the exhumation of the brothers. That, and only that, would lay a true foundation for a complete forensic investigation. But there is one itty bitty fly in the ointment; are the bodies buried on the Smith family property in Nauvoo, Illinois the actual brothers? Are their skeletons still intact and complete? Are the pieces of the skulls that took direct hits by presumably .60 or perhaps a .30ish caliber round still in place, or at least with the skulls? If not, can plaster or jello molds be cast to properly fill in the wound channel? Then there are the other itty bitty details...

Where EXACTLY were the brothers standing? Were they upright, crouched, diving for cover? How could Richards possibly know where they were standing, since he was hiding behind the door? Was there another firearm in the room, as has been speculated? If so, where was it, and who had it? The story about the rounds coming in from outside like hail or fireflies, was that even possible? Why did Taylor say and then stick to the story that his pocket watch took a direct it when that was forensically impossible? Why were Taylor and Richards left alive IF the mob was as large and worked up as reported?

In order for anyone in the room to be hit by rounds from outside in the yard, they would have to have been standing almost on the window ledge or within a foot or so of the window and would have been perfectly still. Now, IF anyone in that room attempted to jump from it or if they were directly in front of the window during the attack, then I could easily swallow the hail of bullets. But, where are the impact craters inside the room? 'Oh, they were plastered over and souvenir hunters digging the balls out damaged large portions of the ceiling and walls...' If the souvenir hunters did in fact "dig" out the balls, there would be significant damage that would destroy any possible forensic type investigation of the day, but ONLY IF the Sheriff had desired to investigate the murders to that extent. There might be some lead particles left behind to be found today, anywhere inside the room. The door is a HUGE stumbling block, however, because it was totally removed by said souvenir hunters and NO ONE had a clue as to where it went. Then roughly a hundred years later, it shows up in a barn in another state, where it showed significant damages from the "rounds" as well as damages to the hole, perpetrated by those same 'hunters.' At this point in time, all there or ever can be is conjecture and speculation. Narratives can paint most any picture that can lead to a claim or refutation of a claim. Either scenario is as likely as the other.

There was motive, oh yes indeed there was motive. There was means, absolutely there was means. There was, most definitely, opportunity. But for who and why? Joseph was arrested on a semi valid legal and lawful charge. Hyrum just went along in hopes of defending his brother or dying with his brother. The brothers had many visitors from the time of their arrival until they hit the floor. At least one gun was brought into them. Joseph knew there was a conspiracy afoot to remove him, either by putting him in prison forever or killing him. He in all likelihood knew who, at least, some of the conspirators were. He definitely knew who a few of them were, and he was crushed by that knowledge.

In order to get a clear picture of why it all happened, and to determine IF there was an inside conspiracy, and perhaps even who they were, we have to back up a ways. The list of Joseph's enemies on the inside of the Church was long and growing longer. But why? Almost all of Joseph's enemies, from inside, were such, because they had been excommunicated by Joseph for a handful of reasons. Adultery, being one of the biggest, claiming authority that they did not have in order to deceive, was another biggie and there were several others related to the faith's rules.

Joseph and Hyrum were almost all the way across the Mississippi River when they were abruptly halted by a messenger from Emma that devastated Joseph. But, what was in that letter? Whatever it was lead him to the famous statement about, his life, not being of worth. That piece, right there, tells me as an investigator that NAMES were in that letter and that there was likely a plot afoot to remove him as PSR or kill him, and it would be from the very people he trusted most in his inner circle. Why else would he turn around when, freedom and sanctuary were mere yards away? We have to keep in mind, the Mississippi was NOT that wide in those days. Likely there were conspirators on the other side waiting for him as well. He could have simply rowed around the danger on the other side, that's why I think it was more of whom those names were that broke his heart and will. So, he turned the boat around, and headed back to meet his fate.

This is NOT about whether or not Joe had multiple wives, that's another point of history that really can not be proven one way or another without written documentation of the type that will stand up in court. Journal entries are NOT proof, especially when said entries were made long after the deaths of the brothers.

Ok I will stop with this, because I could spend a lot of time picking apart how and or why Richards and Taylor were guilty of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, or not. It simply can never be proven and without the bodies of the brothers, it will remain an impossibility to even prove where the kill shots came from. AS IN location, we will never know for sure the answer to who shot boo on that terrible day in 1844.

Where do you get the idea regarding the whereabouts of the Smith's bodies? It is known where they are, for the exhumation and reburiel was photographed and witnessed at the time. It was conducted by the RLDS and the skulls and bones of the martyrs examined closely.

[TheDuke]

I'd like to see an option for WR and JT got scared (like Peter did) and hid, acted like babies, tried to give up Joseph and Hyrum to stay alive, then make a story to cover their cowardice (not saying I'd been more brave if shooting started and I thought J & H (or Jesus before) were getting killed after thinking this wasn't a possible outcome as they were representatives of god.

[I Dont Know...]

The idea is pure fiction.

I admit I can't say I know for sure what went down in Carthage jail. But just curious, have you watched Who Killed Joseph Smith and actually considered the arguments? I believe there's enough there to take it out of the realm of 'fiction' and into the realm of 'worthy of consideration.'

The rebuttable presumption at this point, for me, is that JT and WR committed the act. If I'm wrong, I'll readily admit it. But until I see compelling arguments and explanations that reconcile the problems with the official narrative, I'll remain persuaded it was an inside job. And that's really no crazier than Jesus's own apostle betraying him for 30 pieces of silver.

You do seem to be aware of the power of a good story, in terms of Justin Griffin's videos. I''ll give you that. If one marshals enough seemingly valid points in favor of a given hypothesis and doesit in a bam, bam, bam, rapid-fire and compelling way, you are apt to garner quite a few believers.

The problem is that these points are just seemingly good. Once you critically examine them, most don't hold water, and come across as mere speculation or outright misleading claims. One example, was Justin's claim he proved there were more than 2 guns. He didn't, sorry. And there is much more that can be said about his claims.

And the Judas betrayal analogy doesn't hold much water. First, Judas just identified Jesus to the Romans, he didn't murder Him. And when he saw that his identifying Jesus led to His death, he hung himself, the 30 pieces of silver meaning nothing to him. A story I think has credibility, is that Judas was a secret Zealot who may have thought that once captured, Jesus would be forced to come out and smite the Romans and free the Jews from their oppression, in accordance with the common role the Jewish Messiah was supposed to fulfill. It didn't work. This is nothing like having two of Joseph Smith's closest followers outright murdering him.

...conspiracy to commit murder...not a thing in America?...no man or woman could ever conspire to effect a violent or murderous crime of another?...Zealot or not...was he not close to the Savior...something about supping from the same bowl?

I don't know either way either...so I will withhold any judgement on the merits of the claims regarding who killed Joseph and why...I have been in law enforcement for 25 years...unless the culprit admits to the crime...eye witness accounts are the next best thing but even these accounts lose value over time if these statements are not recorded immediately because our memory begins to fill in blanks we may have forgotten or left out intentionally or unintentionally, but even these are notoriously unreliable, so as with all eye witness accounts there needs to be corroborative evidence such as scientific and forensic...there is always a reason or motivation for murder...in most instances it is not random....and usually perpetuated by someone close to the victim...

...I'm not sure what your interpretation of " critical analysis" is, but even experts on the subject will give varying opinions based on the same present facts. But, what the expert has is experience. The expert who is unbiased will give an objective account based on the relevant information and evidence available...

...so either way, I don't see an expert opinion as being absolute...in much the same way as I don't put too much credence or weight on an amateur sleuths analysis.

[Bronco73idi]

I agree. What motive are you thinking about with your statement?

Making bogus!

That was a term used for making counterfeit money.

The guys who wanted to counterfeit would have to find a printing press. The church always needed a printing press so these guys flocked to them. Because of the forgiving love that one “should” have these conmen do very well around “Mormons”. Even today they succeed in Utah better then anywhere else.

Dan Jones gets into this at the very start of his account of the days surrounding the martyrdom. His account is found in BYU Studies. Quoted below:

"There was some clan of hypocritical rascals in nauvoo who were accused of thefts, making bad money and the like; but proofs of their guilt could not be found for a time, which caused Joseph Smith to make known that he would give a $500 reward to anyone who could bring sufficient proofs against them to enable him to put an end to their misdeeds. Some of them were nominal members of the church, and sufficient witnesses were obtained to excommunicate eight or ten of those supposed to be guilty. Joseph Smith's diligence and determination caused the city to be cleansed completely from such rascals and also caused their curses to be poured out upon him.

They would frequently attack him cruelly and threaten his life so that he had to keep a watch around his house at night. In April 1844, some of these avengers gathered at Joseph Smiths house, and I heard them reproving and maligning maligning him cruelly and unreasonably with severe threats, admitting that it was only out of his opposition to them and because he had excommunicated them, In spite of everything, he did not return their threats; rather he reasoned kindly with them, exhorting them to leave their wicked way."

There was 3 different counterfeiting operations going on in Nauvoo around about the same time before Joseph was killed.

Joseph H. Jackson Told JS that the Laws were going to kill him and he told the Laws that JS was going to kill them.

It was a mess, the main reason it was a mess was because they passed laws that no one outside of Nauvoo could extradite without a council in Nauvoo agreeing to the charges. All to protect JS.

Brigham Young later on the trail going, “Okay, guys. We seriously had problems with counterfeiting and theft, and we need to stop, because that is a liability, a massive liability. People are coming after us. And I will not tolerate this anymore.”

https://gospeltangents.com/2022/10/were ... erfeiters/

Both Jospeh H. Jackson and John C. Bennet were fast talkers and wanted to practice spiritual adultery, their version of Polygamy.

John C. Bennet was a doctor and sexually harassed his female patients and convinced them it was of the Lord. Jospeh Smith did counsel him but was to forgiving to him.


If Brigham and all who went to Utah were as bad as people here say they were, counterfeiting and theft would have become rampant.

This is the annoying part of this discussion, no one truly thinks of all the possible outcomes of a group of liars. They are calling all of the leaders and the ones who testified that Jospeh was a polygamist, liars.

So if BY and company were so bad and disgusting, why did they leave a smooth talking doctor, John C. Bennet, behind?

None of these present day accusations amount to anything besides emotional opinion!

[JLHPROF]

None of these present day accusations amount to anything besides emotional opinion!

Amen.
Joseph's prophecies about apostasy and apostates are fulfilled by posts on this board every day.

[larsenb]

...conspiracy to commit murder...not a thing in America?...no man or woman could ever conspire to effect a violent or murderous crime of another?...Zealot or not...was he not close to the Savior...something about supping from the same bowl?

I don't know either way either...so I will withhold any judgement on the merits of the claims regarding who killed Joseph and why...I have been in law enforcement for 25 years...unless the culprit admits to the crime...eye witness accounts are the next best thing but even these accounts lose value over time if these statements are not recorded immediately because our memory begins to fill in blanks we may have forgotten or left out intentionally or unintentionally, but even these are notoriously unreliable, so as with all eye witness accounts there needs to be corroborative evidence such as scientific and forensic...there is always a reason or motivation for murder...in most instances it is not random....and usually perpetuated by someone close to the victim...

...I'm not sure what your interpretation of " critical analysis" is, but even experts on the subject will give varying opinions based on the same present facts. But, what the expert has is experience. The expert who is unbiased will give an objective account based on the relevant information and evidence available...

...so either way, I don't see an expert opinion as being absolute...in much the same way as I don't put too much credence or weight on an amateur sleuths analysis.

Any time two or more people plan to murder someone, it’s a conspiracy, whether in America, New Zealand or anywhere. They happen all the time.

But Judas didn’t kill Jesus, he identified Jesus to the Romans . . . who would have found out who he was soon enough, anyway. And why would he kill himself, after he found out the Romans hung him on a cross to die?

Willard Richards was a medical doctor. He wrote a letter containing his first-hand account the day after the event, and wrote two more accounts within two weeks of it. Being a doctor, gives him a bit of cred in terms of believing what he had to say, especially regarding the wounds and how they may have occurred. Taylor’s account wasn’t given until about 1854.

In the case of the murder of J Smith, the most obvious motive, was the incredible anger and even hatred a good portion of the population in the surrounding areas had for him, believing he was a traitor to the Constitutional right to free speech, and the rumors swirling around about his polygamous marriages, etc. On the other hand, there is zero evidence Willard Richards or John Taylor harbored any intent to kill the Smiths. Speculation about what they may have thought, just doesn't cut it, which you as a law enforcement officer should understand.

Critical analysis of what someone says, can be determined by anyone with a fairly good working mind, by simply determining whether the person proves what he/she claims.

And who do you regard as the expert vs. the amateur sleuth in this little debate? I’m just pointing out the weaknesses I see In the WR/JT assassination hypothesis . . . . . which are many. You’re welcome to show me where I’m full of pink ink.

[I Dont Know...]

...conspiracy to commit murder...not a thing in America?...no man or woman could ever conspire to effect a violent or murderous crime of another?...Zealot or not...was he not close to the Savior...something about supping from the same bowl?

I don't know either way either...so I will withhold any judgement on the merits of the claims regarding who killed Joseph and why...I have been in law enforcement for 25 years...unless the culprit admits to the crime...eye witness accounts are the next best thing but even these accounts lose value over time if these statements are not recorded immediately because our memory begins to fill in blanks we may have forgotten or left out intentionally or unintentionally, but even these are notoriously unreliable, so as with all eye witness accounts there needs to be corroborative evidence such as scientific and forensic...there is always a reason or motivation for murder...in most instances it is not random....and usually perpetuated by someone close to the victim...

...I'm not sure what your interpretation of " critical analysis" is, but even experts on the subject will give varying opinions based on the same present facts. But, what the expert has is experience. The expert who is unbiased will give an objective account based on the relevant information and evidence available...

...so either way, I don't see an expert opinion as being absolute...in much the same way as I don't put too much credence or weight on an amateur sleuths analysis.

Any time two or more people plan to murder someone, it’s a conspiracy, whether in America, New Zealand or anywhere. They happen all the time.

But Judas didn’t kill Jesus, he identified Jesus to the Romans . . . who would have found out who he was soon enough, anyway. And why would he kill himself, after he found out the Romans hung him on a cross to die?

Willard Richards was a medical doctor. He wrote a letter containing his first-hand account the day after the event, and wrote two more accounts within two weeks of it. Being a doctor, gives him a bit of cred in terms of believing what he had to say, especially regarding the wounds and how they may have occurred. Taylor’s account wasn’t given until about 1854.

In the case of the murder of J Smith, the most obvious motive, was the incredible anger and even hatred a good portion of the population in the surrounding areas had for him, believing he was a traitor to the Constitutional right to free speech, and the rumors swirling around about his polygamous marriages, etc. On the other hand, there is zero evidence Willard Richards or John Taylor harbored any intent to kill the Smiths. Speculation about what they may have thought, just doesn't cut it, which you as a law enforcement officer should understand.

Critical analysis of what someone says, can be determined by anyone with a fairly good working mind, by simply determining whether the person proves what he/she claims.

And who do you regard as the expert vs. the amateur sleuth in this little debate? I’m just pointing out the weaknesses I see In the WR/JT assassination hypothesis . . . . . which are many. You’re welcome to show me where I’m full of pink ink.

Fair enough...its pointless trying to explain the principles of modern investigation techniques where it is evident that there exists limited evidence at best one way or the other...sort of my point really. Conjecture/opinion is just that...

I couldn't hazard a guess, because that's all it would be. The whole did he didn't he is a bit moot if you ask me...a bit like trying to harness the wind.

...and credibility is credible...until it isn't. Witnesses are reliable...until they aren't.

Murder/Suicide has as many faces, not all of them obvious...

[larsenb]

. . . . . Fair enough...its pointless trying to explain the principles of modern investigation techniques where it is evident that there exists limited evidence at best one way or the other...sort of my point really. Conjecture/opinion is just that...

I couldn't hazard a guess, because that's all it would be. The whole did he didn't he is a bit moot if you ask me...a bit like trying to harness the wind.

...and credibility is credible...until it isn't. Witnesses are reliable...until they aren't.

Murder/Suicide has as many faces, not all of them obvious...

I think I understand what you are saying. My take, though, would be to say that it’s pointless to use the principles of modern investigation on a remote crime scene where so little of the original physical evidence has survived.

On the simple logical face of the problem, however is the reality that the mob clearly were out to kill Joseph, and incidentally, anyone with him in the way. Countering that is the complete lack of evidence that Willard Richards and John Taylor conspired to have the Smiths killed, or actually killed them; nor is there any evidence, whatsoever, they had the mentality to do such a horrendous deed.

Lacking this evidence, in my strongly held view, the idea that "murder/suicide" has many faces, just doesn't apply in this case.

[larsenb]

None of these present day accusations amount to anything besides emotional opinion!

Amen.
Joseph's prophecies about apostasy and apostates are fulfilled by posts on this board every day.

I launched this poll to get kind of a gauge on the apostate drift of the members of this forum. So far it doesn't look good. For me, it was to be a kind of apostasy index.

Currently, we have 38 posters who think John Taylor and Willard Richards had some kind of hand in the murder of the Smiths, as opposed to 31 who say they didn’t. And those who have voted, thusly, seem to be oblivious as to how sketchy the evidence and testimony for this is. It’s one thing to have doubts about polygamy, but believing in this scenario is a knock-out punch to believing there is any legitimacy to the post-Joseph Smith Church.

And they don’t seem to understand that because of the sketchy evidence and testimony supporting the WR/JT assassination idea, it’s a step they didn’t have to take . . . . which underscores for me, how agenda-driven the idea is for them.

Now,, there were only 69 respondents, so far. This tells me that others on the forum who are aware of this debate/controversy, aren’t much bothered by its negative outcome, indicating either they don’t see the importance of it as a key indicator of one’s stance regarding the post-Joseph Church, or they are essentially on board with the majority opinion.

Very disappointing to me. And a sure push for me to essentially avoid this forum in the future, except to maybe garner information/data, I find interesting. I’ve certainly have enough to occupy my time instead of trying to beat a dead horse.

[JLHPROF]

None of these present day accusations amount to anything besides emotional opinion!

Amen.
Joseph's prophecies about apostasy and apostates are fulfilled by posts on this board every day.

I launched this poll to get kind of a gauge on the apostate drift of the members of this forum. So far it doesn't look good. For me, it was to be a kind of apostasy index.

Currently, we have 38 posters who think John Taylor and Willard Richards had some kind of hand in the murder of the Smiths, as opposed to 31 who say they didn’t. And those who have voted, thusly, seem to be oblivious as to how sketchy the evidence and testimony for this is. It’s one thing to have doubts about polygamy, but believing in this scenario is a knock-out punch to believing there is any legitimacy to the post-Joseph Smith Church.

And they don’t seem to understand that because of the sketchy evidence and testimony supporting the WR/JT assassination idea, it’s a step they didn’t have to take . . . . which underscores for me, how agenda-driven the idea is for them.

Now,, there were only 69 respondents, so far. This tells me that others on the forum who are aware of this debate/controversy, aren’t much bothered by its negative outcome, indicating either they don’t see the importance of it as a key indicator of one’s stance regarding the post-Joseph Church, or they are essentially on board with the majority opinion.

Very disappointing to me. And a sure push for me to essentially avoid this forum in the future, except to maybe garner information/data, I find interesting. I’ve certainly have enough to occupy my time instead of trying to beat a dead horse.

It's not just conspiracy theories. There isn't a single aspect of the gospel restored through the prophet Joseph Smith that doesn't get dragged through the mud here regularly. Even Joseph himself.
Revelations, ordinances, scriptures, doctrine, prophets, apostles - all regularly rejected and spat upon by posters here on the not-at-all-"LDS" Freedom Forum.
I'm all for freedom of religion and belief but there's hardly a believer in the latter day restoration on here.

[larsenb]

Amen.
Joseph's prophecies about apostasy and apostates are fulfilled by posts on this board every day.

I launched this poll to get kind of a gauge on the apostate drift of the members of this forum. So far it doesn't look good. For me, it was to be a kind of apostasy index.

Currently, we have 38 posters who think John Taylor and Willard Richards had some kind of hand in the murder of the Smiths, as opposed to 31 who say they didn’t. And those who have voted, thusly, seem to be oblivious as to how sketchy the evidence and testimony for this is. It’s one thing to have doubts about polygamy, but believing in this scenario is a knock-out punch to believing there is any legitimacy to the post-Joseph Smith Church.

And they don’t seem to understand that because of the sketchy evidence and testimony supporting the WR/JT assassination idea, it’s a step they didn’t have to take . . . . which underscores for me, how agenda-driven the idea is for them.

Now,, there were only 69 respondents, so far. This tells me that others on the forum who are aware of this debate/controversy, aren’t much bothered by its negative outcome, indicating either they don’t see the importance of it as a key indicator of one’s stance regarding the post-Joseph Church, or they are essentially on board with the majority opinion.

Very disappointing to me. And a sure push for me to essentially avoid this forum in the future, except to maybe garner information/data, I find interesting. I’ve certainly have enough to occupy my time instead of trying to beat a dead horse.

It's not just conspiracy theories. There isn't a single aspect of the gospel restored through the prophet Joseph Smith that doesn't get dragged through the mud here regularly. Even Joseph himself.
Revelations, ordinances, scriptures, doctrine, prophets, apostles - all regularly rejected and spat upon by posters here on the not-at-all-"LDS" Freedom Forum.
I'm all for freedom of religion and belief but there's hardly a believer in the latter day restoration on here.

There is a lot of good information that surfaces here on controversial topics that needs airing, in my view. I don't deny it. But there has been a rapid acceleration of anti-Restoration rhetoric and sentiment ever since the announcements from the top Brethren pushing the mRNA shots, and showing no awareness of alternative therapies, etc.

And there seems to be no direction regarding some of the awful things confronting us politically and socially, outside of being kind and tolerant. Nothing against the Antifa/BLM riots, and very little against the horror and societal disintegration coming out the LGBT, etc., movement. No warnings against the push for Globalist control. Not a word regarding Moroni's warning in Ether 8:22-26 for our day.

How do you deal with some of these issues, if you are even bothered by them?

My take with the Church has been: The Lord is behind the Restoration, and was planing for as far back as ~600 BC. D&C 1 is a clarion call for its establishment; so it's very tough to believe He has abandoned it or would have allowed it to be derailed almost out of the blocks. So my conclusion is that He may not be pleased with some of the things currently going on in the Church, but is allowing it for His own purposes.

Care to comment? Is this part of the "Great Test" that has been predicted, or what?

[Nevervaxxed]

I don’t know. I would say it’s a possibility, but I don’t know for sure what happened.

Obviously still a lot of brainwashed members out there... going against the grain is tougher for some than others... It's hard realizing much of what you've believed isn't actual the "truth".

[larsenb]

I don’t know. I would say it’s a possibility, but I don’t know for sure what happened.

Obviously still a lot of brainwashed members out there... going against the grain is tougher for some than others... It's hard realizing much of what you've believed isn't actual the "truth".

You weren't reply to me directly, but if you think the WR/JT assassination idea is truth, you've got your own problems.

[I Dont Know...]

. . . . . Fair enough...its pointless trying to explain the principles of modern investigation techniques where it is evident that there exists limited evidence at best one way or the other...sort of my point really. Conjecture/opinion is just that...

I couldn't hazard a guess, because that's all it would be. The whole did he didn't he is a bit moot if you ask me...a bit like trying to harness the wind.

...and credibility is credible...until it isn't. Witnesses are reliable...until they aren't.

Murder/Suicide has as many faces, not all of them obvious...

I think I understand what you are saying. My take, though, would be to say that it’s pointless to use the principles of modern investigation on a remote crime scene where so little of the original physical evidence has survived.

On the simple logical face of the problem, however is the reality that the mob clearly were out to kill Joseph, and incidentally, anyone with him in the way. Countering that is the complete lack of evidence that Willard Richards and John Taylor conspired to have the Smiths killed, or actually killed them; nor is there any evidence, whatsoever, they had the mentality to do such a horrendous deed.

Lacking this evidence, in my strongly held view, the idea that "murder/suicide" has many faces, just doesn't apply in this case.

...I understand where you are coming from I think...

...my take was this guy was trying to truthfully give an informed opinion...but in reality that's all it is. I don't see anything sinister in attempting to discern the truth, especially when there are discrepancies in the historical account.

...thanks...we will agree to disagree...

[simpleton]

I launched this poll to get kind of a gauge on the apostate drift of the members of this forum. So far it doesn't look good. For me, it was to be a kind of apostasy index.

Currently, we have 38 posters who think John Taylor and Willard Richards had some kind of hand in the murder of the Smiths, as opposed to 31 who say they didn’t. And those who have voted, thusly, seem to be oblivious as to how sketchy the evidence and testimony for this is. It’s one thing to have doubts about polygamy, but believing in this scenario is a knock-out punch to believing there is any legitimacy to the post-Joseph Smith Church.

And they don’t seem to understand that because of the sketchy evidence and testimony supporting the WR/JT assassination idea, it’s a step they didn’t have to take . . . . which underscores for me, how agenda-driven the idea is for them.

Now,, there were only 69 respondents, so far. This tells me that others on the forum who are aware of this debate/controversy, aren’t much bothered by its negative outcome, indicating either they don’t see the importance of it as a key indicator of one’s stance regarding the post-Joseph Church, or they are essentially on board with the majority opinion.

Very disappointing to me. And a sure push for me to essentially avoid this forum in the future, except to maybe garner information/data, I find interesting. I’ve certainly have enough to occupy my time instead of trying to beat a dead horse.

It's not just conspiracy theories. There isn't a single aspect of the gospel restored through the prophet Joseph Smith that doesn't get dragged through the mud here regularly. Even Joseph himself.
Revelations, ordinances, scriptures, doctrine, prophets, apostles - all regularly rejected and spat upon by posters here on the not-at-all-"LDS" Freedom Forum.
I'm all for freedom of religion and belief but there's hardly a believer in the latter day restoration on here.

There is a lot of good information that surfaces here on controversial topics that needs airing, in my view. I don't deny it. But there has been a rapid acceleration of anti-Restoration rhetoric and sentiment ever since the announcements from the top Brethren pushing the mRNA shots, and showing no awareness of alternative therapies, etc.

And there seems to be no direction regarding some of the awful things confronting us politically and socially, outside of being kind and tolerant. Nothing against the Antifa/BLM riots, and very little against the horror and societal disintegration coming out the LGBT, etc., movement. No warnings against the push for Globalist control. Not a word regarding Moroni's warning in Ether 8:22-26 for our day.

How do you deal with some of these issues, if you are even bothered by them?

My take with the Church has been: The Lord is behind the Restoration, and was planing for as far back as ~600 BC. D&C 1 is a clarion call for its establishment; so it's very tough to believe He has abandoned it or would have allowed it to be derailed almost out of the blocks. So my conclusion is that He may not be pleased with some of the things currently going on in the Church, but is allowing it for His own purposes.

Care to comment? Is this part of the "Great Test" that has been predicted, or what?

Yes it is. No question in my mind. And as good ol Heber stated:
“An army of Elders will be sent to the four quarters of the earth to search out the
righteous and warn the wicked of what is coming. All kinds of religions will be started and miracles
performed that will deceive the very elect if that were possible. Our sons and daughters must live pure
lives so as to be prepared for what is coming.
After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed
among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of
the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.
Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize
and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the
minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our
Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the
Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews.
The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President
Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his
tail.
Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of
them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day
and night until deliverance comes.
Then the Prophet Joseph and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful
will be selected to return to Jackson County, Missouri and take part in the building of that beautiful city,
the New Jerusalem.”....

“I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in
these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face
of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great
sifting time, and many will fall; for I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming, and who will be
able to stand? This church has before it many close places through which it must pass before the work
of God is crowned with victory. To meet the difficulties that are coming it will be necessary for you to
have knowledge of the truth of this work for yourselves. The difficulties will be of such character that
the man or woman who does not possess this personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not
got the testimony, live right and call upon the Lord and cease not ‘till you obtain it. If you do not, you
will not stand. ”

BY:

“There never has been a time on the face of the earth…that the powers of darkness and
the powers of earth and hell were so embittered, and enraged, and incensed against God and Godliness
on the earth, as they are at the present. And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of
wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have
apostatized and join hands with the wicked, and never until then; which I pray may never come.”

Well the above speaks for itself, I consider them both to be called and anointed of the Lord, others also.
Let them rage against the Lord's anointed, by and by they will all be disappointed.
I actually expect most to fall, maybe even me also. A small remnant will escape though. Of course after a nasty trial. God said He will save His sheep even if it must needs be by fire. So I consider that to be quite extreme circumstances that are coming.
But live or die, as long as we are faithful, it shall be well with us.
The battle is not for the strong and the swift but for those that ENDURE to the end.

[Wolfwoman]

I don’t know. I would say it’s a possibility, but I don’t know for sure what happened.

Obviously still a lot of brainwashed members out there... going against the grain is tougher for some than others... It's hard realizing much of what you've believed isn't actual the "truth".

I said I don’t know, but that I think it’s possible. How is that a brainwashed statement? None of us know what happened. We weren’t there.

[Mindfields]

The apparent but timely poisoning and death of Samuel, Joseph and Hyrum's brother, ought to be considered.

[Nevervaxxed]

I don’t know. I would say it’s a possibility, but I don’t know for sure what happened.

Obviously still a lot of brainwashed members out there... going against the grain is tougher for some than others... It's hard realizing much of what you've believed isn't actual the "truth".

I said I don’t know, but that I think it’s possible. How is that a brainwashed statement? None of us know what happened. We weren’t there.

It wasn't - I apologize. I got lost in the links and replied to your comment instead of another. Plus, I shouldn't have wrote it at all. It really isn't my place to judge if I think someone is being brainwashed or not - I feel I've been "brainwashed" by the church most of my life and I'm finally starting to see Christ's light without that "prism"! I sincerely apologize Wolfwoman!

[Nevervaxxed]

I don’t know. I would say it’s a possibility, but I don’t know for sure what happened.

Obviously still a lot of brainwashed members out there... going against the grain is tougher for some than others... It's hard realizing much of what you've believed isn't actual the "truth".

You weren't reply to me directly, but if you think the WR/JT assassination idea is truth, you've got your own problems.

I do have my own problems, lots of them. I'm as imperfect as they come, but at least i don't believe a skull and bones profit that is so inspied as to direct members of his church to take the clot shot. Many on this thread have the opinion that you share concerning thed murder of JS, and at least half do not. I admitt readily that the "recreation" of JS's murder through this video is mostly speculative, and it's easy to see why so many push back against it, but it is at least plausible to me, especially given that the "church" has NOT been honest about it, and that so many supposed faith promoting stories have been fabricated about it over the years. The work being done by authors and scholars like Denver Snuffer, Michelle Stone, Reluctant Watchman, and so many others ring very true to me. As I've admitted, I have many problems of my own. Do you?

Based on the evidence I've seen, both on this board and elsewhere, you and those who continue to push the "church is true" narrative are trying so hard to to see the evidence against the "church" and against BY and his ilk, is simply cognitive dissodence. You don't want to change your life or your beliefs and you're willing to jump through so many hoops to believe what you believe. You don't know me, but I have pursued a hard course in life because I refuse to accept the status quo; I am one that kicks against the pricks, and I've paid a heavy, heavy price for that. I try and go where the truth leasds me, based on facts as I can best assess them: in my humble and maybe wrong opinion, at this point, I cannot see how anyone could say RMN is a prophet of God.

Is the church still "true", and what does that even mean?? I honestly do not KNOW the answer, but I lean "no" based on the evidence I've seen, but I still hold out strong hope that JS was and is a Prophet ordained by God, he did not write D&C 132, nor was he a polygamist. The Book of Mormon you so claim to espouse states such. How do you reconsile, without extreme mental gymnastics, that JS was a polygamist, with the fact that every word he ever spoke railed against it, as does his translation of the BOM that also rails against it?? You and those who continually push the church is true meme on here agree with all the ant-mormon critics that constantly push and publish information that JS was and is a liar, polygamist, fraud, and the most hypocritcal man to roam the earth. Yea, that's a "sane" point of view...

JS was and is a prophet of God, or he was and is the ultimate hypocrite. You decide. I have for myself, and I find JS much more believable than BY and his ilk, and the current absolutely global, woke "brethren" running the church into the ground, recommending you take a shot that can kill you. An you think I'm the one that has problems? I think you might want to some honest interspection Mr. Larsen. That's my OPINION, not that it's worth much...

[larsenb]

. . . . . ..

I think I understand what you are saying. My take, though, would be to say that it’s pointless to use the principles of modern investigation on a remote crime scene where so little of the original physical evidence has survived.

On the simple logical face of the problem, however is the reality that the mob clearly were out to kill Joseph, and incidentally, anyone with him in the way. Countering that is the complete lack of evidence that Willard Richards and John Taylor conspired to have the Smiths killed, or actually killed them; nor is there any evidence, whatsoever, they had the mentality to do such a horrendous deed.

Lacking this evidence, in my strongly held view, the idea that "murder/suicide" has many faces, just doesn't apply in this case.

...I understand where you are coming from I think...

...my take was this guy was trying to truthfully give an informed opinion...but in reality that's all it is. I don't see anything sinister in attempting to discern the truth, especially when there are discrepancies in the historical account.

...thanks...we will agree to disagree...

Sinister isn't the word I would use. i see Justin as largely agenda driven. In my strongly held view, he is someone out to develop more oomph to back up his already determined position, though he apparently masks that agenda to make his story more plausible to the unsuspecting reader.

And his agenda is essentially to show that the Church went off the rails w/Brigham, et al., and polygamy, and that the Brighamites had to get rid of JS, with WR and JT complicit in this goal. This is an apostate opinion, in my view. And if Griffin has been exxed, as I recall hearing, this is the eventual outcome for those taking on this idea in a public manner . . . .

Make sure you keep your screen name . . . . and your lip zipped, if you don't desire this outcome . . . .