Nelson—Departing the faith, seducing spirits, doctrines of devils…

[Being There]

Never take counsel from those who do not believe.

Nothing wrong with this either. Why would a man take spiritual advice from someone who disagrees with his chosen spiritual path? Would you take advice on keto from a vegan?

This is called confirmation bias. You only look for things and interpret them to confirm your belief. You're not necessarily looking for the "truth:" you're only looking for your version of truth that supports your narrative..

boy ! is that a good one;
and what most everyone does in this forum - including myself - to some extent.
But I feel at least I'm really looking for the truth - no matter even if I'm wrong -
and use the scriptures to prove the truth; which many do not.

(most aren't really looking for the truth - but want the truth to be what they want it to be)

“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”

[TwochurchesOnly]

From what I understand, the following quote came from the president of the LDS church. Do you guys actually believe that this man is a prophet? This quote really singed my better nature and made me quite upset. He is actively striving to divide families and to shut down conversations that contradict anything the church leaders say.

You have your gods.

“The apostle Paul prophesied that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” —Russell Nelson

Et tu Brute?

rmn left out a few key words - words that point to and convict him (cuz he's clinging to his "keys")

here they are, in bold:
" some shall depart from the faith - IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST....
never take counsel from those who do not believe - IN THE SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

[Chip]

As I read this it reminded me of Yeonmi Park relaying her experience from living in N.Korea. On Saturdays children to adult would gather with their respective age group and stand one by one declaring their allegiance to their supreme leader- the Kim’s. If any there detected the slightest doubt in their voice they’d be severely disciplined, cast out and rejected by society, effectively sentenced to death - the ultimate cancelling. That is what our church now teaches God will do to us if we don’t proclaim our allegiance to the gospel as taught by these severely imperfect men. There is no grace in their teachings. It is all works based and somehow we can be our own savior, thus not needing the ultimate Savior of the world. It’s blasphemous!

Good analysis. I agree.

The church is out of its effin' gourd these days. Grown men in my rural ward virtue signal to each other how on-board they are with it all. It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers, or something. And nobody noticed that Elvis left the building a while back.

It was reading Yeonmi Park’s book as well as the Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn that really opened my eyes with what’s going on with the church. I’m not equating severe brutalities that occur in communist regimes to LDS rhetoric but there are similarities with how one must profess belief in leaders and teachings in order to be counted as a citizen/member in good standing. Both need unwavering devotion to maintain control/power. Both need generational participation. And both ask that you turn on those who don’t share the same level of belief that the higher-ups demand.

Yes!!! I never thought about those last few points, but that's where things ARE nowadays in LDS land.

I had delivered a few church talks in which I covered Solzhenitsyn and quoted him about the importance of not engaging in coerced activities where your consent will be extorted. It was during the COVID era. A few people responded very positively and were cathartically validated in what they had been thinking for a long time, while wondering why in the world nobody was talking about this in the church. The leaders on the stand had a very consistent reaction: STONE-FACED SILENCE, looking forward, without glancing, as I returned to my seat. Every one of them was fully vaxxed because they were following the prophet, expressing their fealty to their false God. One stake member later told me that was NOT a church talk I had given. A church talk must evoke standard church feelings, not warning or necessarily any truth, just status quo fodder.

[Reluctant Watchman]

From what I understand, the following quote came from the president of the LDS church. Do you guys actually believe that this man is a prophet? This quote really singed my better nature and made me quite upset. He is actively striving to divide families and to shut down conversations that contradict anything the church leaders say.

You have your gods.

“The apostle Paul prophesied that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” —Russell Nelson

Et tu Brute?

rmn left out a few key words - words that point to and convict him (cuz he's clinging to his "keys")

here they are, in bold:
" some shall depart from the faith IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST....
never take counsel from those who do not believe IN THE SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

These men are experts in the art of language manipulation.

[Chip]

From what I understand, the following quote came from the president of the LDS church. Do you guys actually believe that this man is a prophet? This quote really singed my better nature and made me quite upset. He is actively striving to divide families and to shut down conversations that contradict anything the church leaders say.

You have your gods.

“The apostle Paul prophesied that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” —Russell Nelson

Et tu Brute?

rmn left out a few key words - words that point to and convict him (cuz he's clinging to his "keys")

here they are, in bold:
" some shall depart from the faith IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST....
never take counsel from those who do not believe IN THE SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

These men are experts in the art of language manipulation.

Oaks, especially. He's quite the wordsmith. He's a lawyer, too, you know.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Oaks, especially. He's quite the wordsmith. He's a lawyer, too, you know.

Lawyers have a stellar reputation in the BoM. I like this verse in particular:

3 Npehi 6:27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

In Oaks, they have combined their powers, both lawyer and high priest, into one.

[FrankOne]

ye do err not knowing the scriptures............. this is a command to Ezekial. Are you called and RW and others to be judges and given a commission to preach? No, I think not, if you did, you'd add that to your claim! Same issue we discussed with Emily calling us to repentance. Not your job unless you provide a calling pedigree, like Zek! Read the whole book, not a few googled verses!

Has God and His spirit prompted me to speak up against corruption w/in the religion of my youth? 100% percent. I fear your "you don't know the scriptures" comment is misguided.

And what's this "calling pedigree." ?? haha... Oh, my... you are funny.

"Please, don't tell people their beliefs may be misguided.... please don't do that. None of the past prophets have done that.... and you certainly do not have the prophetic pedigree."

YEAH GOD CALLED YOU TO TAKE AWAY WEAKER PERSONS TESTIMONIES ARE REPLACE THEM WITH A "HOLE"......... You are MISGUIDED! Your welcome!

Well said, Duke. You have painted a perfect picture of what you are perceiving is happening.

When delusion is brought to light, it leaves a hole, where once was a lie. Those that are suffering from delusions do not want them to be taken away because of FEAR of the loss of what they believe in... so... they work to keep their delusion by fighting others that are trying to shed light on the problem.

This is how all false beliefs work and the tell tale sign of a false belief is the degree that someone is fighting others to prove they are right. This is an absolute evidence, always.

When you know something, it doesn't matter at all if someone attacks it. Untruths are very very fragile.

The hole created by the removal of false beliefs is meant to be filled by the Holy Spirit but usually, at first, it is filled with anger toward someone to blame for teaching them wrongly. After a period of settling down, the angered person accepts responsibility for their past false belief and then goes on to search for the guidance of The Spirit.

it's all a process.

[LateOutOfBed]

YEAH GOD CALLED YOU TO TAKE AWAY WEAKER PERSONS TESTIMONIES ARE REPLACE THEM WITH A "HOLE"......... You are MISGUIDED! Your welcome!

Well said, Duke. You have painted a perfect picture of what you are perceiving is happening.

When delusion is brought to light, it leaves a hole, where once was a lie. Those that are suffering from delusions do not want them to be taken away because of FEAR of the loss of what they believe in... so... they work to keep their delusion by fighting others that are trying to shed light on the problem.

This is how all false beliefs work and the tell tale sign of a false belief is the degree that someone is fighting others to prove they are right. This is an absolute evidence, always.

When you know something, it doesn't matter at all if someone attacks it. Untruths are very very fragile.

The hole created by the removal of false beliefs is meant to be filled by the Holy Spirit but usually, at first, it is filled with anger toward someone to blame for teaching them wrongly. After a period of settling down, the angered person accepts responsibility for their past false belief and then goes on to search for the guidance of The Spirit.

it's all a process.

Wow, I don't normally agree with Duke! But I kind of see the point they are making. And it makes sense:

“Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men” (D&C 11:21). But what is the "word"? The word is God, God made flesh is Jesus. So many people don't see this as seek to obtain a knowledge of Jesus and know him for real (rend the veil!). No longer just a belief! This is why I don't preach much against the church to people outside my close circle of friends (all of whom already felt very close). I haven't personally met Jesus yet and one of my greatest fears is standing before Jesus and him saying "you were right, but how you did it led people away from me". That would break my heart. I do try to set and example and if people come to me and ask I carefully choose what I say based on how secure they are. One thing I ALWAYS do is testify of Jesus and how real he's been in my life (even though I haven't met him yet).

Now on a board like this, I think people that come here are naturally more "stable" in their own beliefs not to just "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak. So, I love all the perspectives I read here and I learn and grow a lot here.

Basically all I want to do is help bring people to Jesus, but some people still are way too tied that the church and Jesus are the same and if one is all the sudden shown to be false (i.e any church) they throw out the whole idea of God instead of being able to separate the two. I've seen this happen to members in my own family. When I first came to the conclusions you did Reluctant, I told a lot of people. When I told my mother-in-law she literally broke down because "I was apostate and taking her daughter to hell with me and breaking her eternal family with her daughter". I've basically stopped talking to her about anything spiritual because she's so fragile and afraid. For her it's actually better to try to seek Jesus within the LDS corp than the damage that would cause her coming to terms with the likelihood that the church is fallen. My mother on the other hand just says "Oh, you'll come around" and I tease her back and say "Oh, mom so will you". Very different levels of fragility... and many, many LDS are EXTREMELY fragile. I would HATE for someone to completely loose their faith in Jesus because I adamantly proved how the LDS corp is in league w/ secret combinations.

Thus, for now I will continue to "Seek to obtain His word". I can't wait for the day when my "tongue is loosed", but for now I'll patiently wait upon the lord for that day. Maybe your tongue has been loosed by God though, and if so, and you're filled with His spirit unto the convincing of men to find Jesus then more power too you friend! I just don't want to cause more harm than good.

[Reluctant Watchman]

While a void is created, the whole intent of what many people are saying (at least that's the intent of my essays) is that this "hole" was created because men placed their trust in men. If their trust was founded upon Christ, they would have no hole or void.

[TheDuke]

I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and turned my truck into a bush. In the bush was a sharp rock which punctured the tire and instantly went flat. I was on a cliff edge and hill. When I jacked up my truck (which I bought used 1 week earlier), the jack folded and I found my truck just stuck there. Had to pick and dig a hole in the road, etc...

A few years before, I purchased a used Highlander to take to Yellowstone (guess I shouldn't be buying aged vehicles). On the way it got a nail and had a slow leak. There isn't much between me and Yellowstone but the slow leak allowed me to coast to a little town in Idaho and find a sort-of-temporary tire replacement.

The first story here is like COVID time. All kinds of LDS living easily under their leadership not asking questions and things are easy. Along comes COVID and Trump to out the Deep State and then the Dem's to start their take over and Schwab and his NWO and all at once the air is let out of the tire, and it is way up on the side of a precarious mountain top in unfamiliar territory. It hit many hard. I mean you trust one day and the next, all hell is breaking loose and there seems no truth or honor anywhere. And especially where you leaned on it before.

In my case it was a sloooooow leak. I first remember coming on the flood issue and Fielding Smith's BS about it and the fact that not one blade of grass died before 6000 years ago.................. Then it was Salamander letters. Then it was learnings from places like Josephus that contradicted LDS and McConkie and Nibley and Skousen, etc... Then truths about LDS history. then Oaks and the use of tithing funds (5-6 years ago at first). Then RMN................................... It was a slow leak, many little nails. One that allowed me to ponder and pray to sort things out. Plug one hole at a time and find the answers by the spirit. At one point, I'm not sure if I believed much except that I knew Jesus and the atonement were true. And I knew the Lord blessed my family and my precious wife. I had a nearly perfect family, strange as I've always been a OCD like person with logic and math leading my mindset.

Then my wife came out of the hospital and was another woman. Invited a native American friend to the hospital, secretly got an apartment with him and left the very day she got home. The spirit contacted me in the top of the arch in STL to tell me "all is not well". My life seemed to come apart. You think COVID and LDS and USA issues are bad, throw in losing your family and the love of your life. Without a moments notice. It was over and she hid out. I only discovered she was gone when the spirit had me check my bank accounts and looking for paperwork found her boots and shoes gone.

I nearly gave up on things. but, I knew god lived. I knew my family was eternal I knew my covenants were real. The rest of the story is complicated. but, to be clear my path, which is quite unique, meant making sacrifices for a woman that claimed to despise and hate me (still does). I agreed to do what ever was necessary to purify my family. I was eventually "destroyed in the flesh" to purify it. You can say BS. But I was brought into the presence of the Lord, briefly and felt his love. After this and 10, 20,000 hours of pray, searching, pondering, study. I have been privy to several of the mysteries of the kingdom. Yet, I cannot share them as they just cannot be learned w/o the spirit specifically testifying to them. Makes me sad, like Moroni and Alma.

Anyway, back on point. I know a few things god lives. There is NOTHING like the feeling of being in his presence. My heavenly mother lives and love me as I have spoken to her. There is celestial partnership, and being god is having celestial offspring. Not everyone on this earth is yet a literal child of god. Progression is eternal and has taken at least 14 B years to get us to this point. We will all become like god someday, but his progression path takes billions of year, not 70.

AND, the LDS church has the authority of god to administer the ordinances, which include temple ordinances. I didn't learn this by "following the prophet" nor by hanging it up when things became tough and I was ready to run away like so many here. I say this because only after tribulation, it seems, does the spirit truly testify of the true principles. Refiners fire, etc...

I was lucky. I had a slow leak. I'm sorry for those that hit the sharp rock in the cliff side. I get frustrated sometimes telling my story as it is true and those who give up over such little crap loose so very much. The church isn't perfect, It never has been. Not in Noah's day, Moses' day, Joseph's day, even in Jesus' day they fought among the apostles. Don't expect perfection. Expect weakness. This is a TELESTIAL world run by SATAN to keep a balance and test us all. That is why we're here, not to be molly coddled by the spirit but to face the refiners fire.

Just my testimony to follow up my previous comments

[Reluctant Watchman]

I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and turned my truck into a bush. In the bush was a sharp rock which punctured the tire and instantly went flat. I was on a cliff edge and hill. When I jacked up my truck (which I bought used 1 week earlier), the jack folded and I found my truck just stuck there. Had to pick and dig a hole in the road, etc...

A few years before, I purchased a used Highlander to take to Yellowstone (guess I shouldn't be buying aged vehicles). On the way it got a nail and had a slow leak. There isn't much between me and Yellowstone but the slow leak allowed me to coast to a little town in Idaho and find a sort-of-temporary tire replacement.

The first story here is like COVID time. All kinds of LDS living easily under their leadership not asking questions and things are easy. Along comes COVID and Trump to out the Deep State and then the Dem's to start their take over and Schwab and his NWO and all at once the air is let out of the tire, and it is way up on the side of a precarious mountain top in unfamiliar territory. It hit many hard. I mean you trust one day and the next, all hell is breaking loose and there seems no truth or honor anywhere. And especially where you leaned on it before.

In my case it was a sloooooow leak. I first remember coming on the flood issue and Fielding Smith's BS about it and the fact that not one blade of grass died before 6000 years ago.................. Then it was Salamander letters. Then it was learnings from places like Josephus that contradicted LDS and McConkie and Nibley and Skousen, etc... Then truths about LDS history. then Oaks and the use of tithing funds (5-6 years ago at first). Then RMN................................... It was a slow leak, many little nails. One that allowed me to ponder and pray to sort things out. Plug one hole at a time and find the answers by the spirit. At one point, I'm not sure if I believed much except that I knew Jesus and the atonement were true. And I knew the Lord blessed my family and my precious wife. I had a nearly perfect family, strange as I've always been a OCD like person with logic and math leading my mindset.

Then my wife came out of the hospital and was another woman. Invited a native American friend to the hospital, secretly got an apartment with him and left the very day she got home. The spirit contacted me in the top of the arch in STL to tell me "all is not well". My life seemed to come apart. You think COVID and LDS and USA issues are bad, throw in losing your family and the love of your life. Without a moments notice. It was over and she hid out. I only discovered she was gone when the spirit had me check my bank accounts and looking for paperwork found her boots and shoes gone.

I nearly gave up on things. but, I knew god lived. I knew my family was eternal I knew my covenants were real. The rest of the story is complicated. but, to be clear my path, which is quite unique, meant making sacrifices for a woman that claimed to despise and hate me (still does). I agreed to do what ever was necessary to purify my family. I was eventually "destroyed in the flesh" to purify it. You can say BS. But I was brought into the presence of the Lord, briefly and felt his love. After this and 10, 20,000 hours of pray, searching, pondering, study. I have been privy to several of the mysteries of the kingdom. Yet, I cannot share them as they just cannot be learned w/o the spirit specifically testifying to them. Makes me sad, like Moroni and Alma.

Anyway, back on point. I know a few things god lives. There is NOTHING like the feeling of being in his presence. My heavenly mother lives and love me as I have spoken to her. There is celestial partnership, and being god is having celestial offspring. Not everyone on this earth is yet a literal child of god. Progression is eternal and has taken at least 14 B years to get us to this point. We will all become like god someday, but his progression path takes billions of year, not 70.

AND, the LDS church has the authority of god to administer the ordinances, which include temple ordinances. I didn't learn this by "following the prophet" nor by hanging it up when things became tough and I was ready to run away like so many here. I say this because only after tribulation, it seems, does the spirit truly testify of the true principles. Refiners fire, etc...

I was lucky. I had a slow leak. I'm sorry for those that hit the sharp rock in the cliff side. I get frustrated sometimes telling my story as it is true and those who give up over such little crap loose so very much. The church isn't perfect, It never has been. Not in Noah's day, Moses' day, Joseph's day, even in Jesus' day they fought among the apostles. Don't expect perfection. Expect weakness. This is a TELESTIAL world run by SATAN to keep a balance and test us all. That is why we're here, not to be molly coddled by the spirit but to face the refiners fire.

Just my testimony to follow up my previous comments

You assume we “gave up”??

[LateOutOfBed]

I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and turned my truck into a bush. In the bush was a sharp rock which punctured the tire and instantly went flat. I was on a cliff edge and hill. When I jacked up my truck (which I bought used 1 week earlier), the jack folded and I found my truck just stuck there. Had to pick and dig a hole in the road, etc...

A few years before, I purchased a used Highlander to take to Yellowstone (guess I shouldn't be buying aged vehicles). On the way it got a nail and had a slow leak. There isn't much between me and Yellowstone but the slow leak allowed me to coast to a little town in Idaho and find a sort-of-temporary tire replacement.

The first story here is like COVID time. All kinds of LDS living easily under their leadership not asking questions and things are easy. Along comes COVID and Trump to out the Deep State and then the Dem's to start their take over and Schwab and his NWO and all at once the air is let out of the tire, and it is way up on the side of a precarious mountain top in unfamiliar territory. It hit many hard. I mean you trust one day and the next, all hell is breaking loose and there seems no truth or honor anywhere. And especially where you leaned on it before.

In my case it was a sloooooow leak. I first remember coming on the flood issue and Fielding Smith's BS about it and the fact that not one blade of grass died before 6000 years ago.................. Then it was Salamander letters. Then it was learnings from places like Josephus that contradicted LDS and McConkie and Nibley and Skousen, etc... Then truths about LDS history. then Oaks and the use of tithing funds (5-6 years ago at first). Then RMN................................... It was a slow leak, many little nails. One that allowed me to ponder and pray to sort things out. Plug one hole at a time and find the answers by the spirit. At one point, I'm not sure if I believed much except that I knew Jesus and the atonement were true. And I knew the Lord blessed my family and my precious wife. I had a nearly perfect family, strange as I've always been a OCD like person with logic and math leading my mindset.

Then my wife came out of the hospital and was another woman. Invited a native American friend to the hospital, secretly got an apartment with him and left the very day she got home. The spirit contacted me in the top of the arch in STL to tell me "all is not well". My life seemed to come apart. You think COVID and LDS and USA issues are bad, throw in losing your family and the love of your life. Without a moments notice. It was over and she hid out. I only discovered she was gone when the spirit had me check my bank accounts and looking for paperwork found her boots and shoes gone.

I nearly gave up on things. but, I knew god lived. I knew my family was eternal I knew my covenants were real. The rest of the story is complicated. but, to be clear my path, which is quite unique, meant making sacrifices for a woman that claimed to despise and hate me (still does). I agreed to do what ever was necessary to purify my family. I was eventually "destroyed in the flesh" to purify it. You can say BS. But I was brought into the presence of the Lord, briefly and felt his love. After this and 10, 20,000 hours of pray, searching, pondering, study. I have been privy to several of the mysteries of the kingdom. Yet, I cannot share them as they just cannot be learned w/o the spirit specifically testifying to them. Makes me sad, like Moroni and Alma.

Anyway, back on point. I know a few things god lives. There is NOTHING like the feeling of being in his presence. My heavenly mother lives and love me as I have spoken to her. There is celestial partnership, and being god is having celestial offspring. Not everyone on this earth is yet a literal child of god. Progression is eternal and has taken at least 14 B years to get us to this point. We will all become like god someday, but his progression path takes billions of year, not 70.

AND, the LDS church has the authority of god to administer the ordinances, which include temple ordinances. I didn't learn this by "following the prophet" nor by hanging it up when things became tough and I was ready to run away like so many here. I say this because only after tribulation, it seems, does the spirit truly testify of the true principles. Refiners fire, etc...

I was lucky. I had a slow leak. I'm sorry for those that hit the sharp rock in the cliff side. I get frustrated sometimes telling my story as it is true and those who give up over such little crap loose so very much. The church isn't perfect, It never has been. Not in Noah's day, Moses' day, Joseph's day, even in Jesus' day they fought among the apostles. Don't expect perfection. Expect weakness. This is a TELESTIAL world run by SATAN to keep a balance and test us all. That is why we're here, not to be molly coddled by the spirit but to face the refiners fire.

Just my testimony to follow up my previous comments

Thanks for your witness snd experience. I still disagree with a lot of your stances, but I appreciate this insight into you. I think the reality is that the gate and the path to God is strait, but it is also very different for everyone (in some ways and other ways the same). I know I won't find my way through the LDS Corp anymore. God gave me enough of a witness of that. I continue to make and keep covenants with him outside that structure as it's an unnecessary structure to make covenants. I still attend now and then but I have a hard time making friends and fitting in... and I realize I don't have to. God is helping me on my journey I know it.

Like Reluctant said too... who says we've given up? I know I'm more hungry and thirsty than ever to drink from the living waters and partake from the fruit of the tree! God bless and good luck to you on your continued path to Him!

[Reluctant Watchman]

Speaking of "holes", this piece from Jordan Peterson has application to our belief systems:

[Nevervaxxed]

From what I understand, the following quote came from the president of the LDS church. Do you guys actually believe that this man is a prophet? This quote really singed my better nature and made me quite upset. He is actively striving to divide families and to shut down conversations that contradict anything the church leaders say.

You have your gods.

“The apostle Paul prophesied that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” —Russell Nelson

Et tu Brute?

You're NOT Think(ing) Celestial Reluctant!

[Reluctant Watchman]

From what I understand, the following quote came from the president of the LDS church. Do you guys actually believe that this man is a prophet? This quote really singed my better nature and made me quite upset. He is actively striving to divide families and to shut down conversations that contradict anything the church leaders say.

You have your gods.

“The apostle Paul prophesied that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” —Russell Nelson

Et tu Brute?

You're NOT Think(ing) Celestial Reluctant!

Don't worry, you're not supposed to listen to counsel from me either.

[Nevervaxxed]

Damn, I was so hoping to find a new prophet to lead me to the Celestial Kingdom... I guess I'm on my own...

[FrankOne]

Speaking of "holes", this piece from Jordan Peterson has application to our belief systems:

Now that guy can articulate concepts better than anyone!

superb!

and perfectly answers the post by Duke that I did a weak job of addressing.

wow. thanks for that.

[TheDuke]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

Yes, please keep your counsel to yourself.

And what’s up with this… “Follow RW”… nonsense? IMO, to even suggest that because I don’t make the save covenants that you apparently do, by the authority you think the church has, will somehow prevent me from progressing, is not a belief I hold. Obviously.

And stop with the whining about leaving but not leaving well enough alone. It’s a weak and tired argument. If a person feels they have found more happiness and peace, even more pure doctrine and understanding, and that happens to contradict your dictators *cough*, sorry, “leaders, then why wouldn’t I want to share that light with them?

And I’m serious about that. If you sincerely believed that the church you grew up in was apostate and being run by corrupt individuals, wouldn’t you be “anxiously engaged in a good cause” and strive to bring to light all their hidden works of darkness?

[TheDuke]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

Yes, please keep your counsel to yourself.

And what’s up with this… “Follow RW”… nonsense? IMO, to even suggest that because I don’t make the save covenants that you apparently do, by the authority you think the church has, will somehow prevent me from progressing, is not a belief I hold. Obviously.

And stop with the whining about leaving but not leaving well enough alone. It’s a weak and tired argument. If a person feels they have found more happiness and peace, even more pure doctrine and understanding, and that happens to contradict your dictators *cough*, sorry, “leaders, then why wouldn’t I want to share that light with them?

And I’m serious about that. If you sincerely believed that the church you grew up in was apostate and being run by corrupt individuals, wouldn’t you be “anxiously engaged in a good cause” and strive to bring to light all their hidden works of darkness?

I see its warts and no it is not a good cause to make someone else stumble............... because of your pride. I just isn't. And THAT IS what Joseph was talking about~!

[LateOutOfBed]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

And see here's what I do disagree with. People should be able to discuss everything they feel and have discovered somewhere (even ad nauseum). I'm grateful for people like Reluctant who has shared their opinions and interpretations of scripture. It makes me want to seek more. I especially appreciate it when people share well thought out, rational, logical beliefs founded in scripture. Shutting people down is worse, and one of the biggest problems I have with church. I can't go there to have productive discussions and to grow... I just have to "fit the mold". The real issue is, if you don't like it, you don't have to agree. You don't even have to read it. You can move along, or you can disagree in a logical fashion with scripture as well and have an open discussion. I can't even begin to list the people that have opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about things, and deeper understanding of scripture. I don't even agree with all of it! But at least it gives me pause to think about a different perspective.

So, Reluctant, please... don't keep your opinions to yourself. I appreciate much of what you have to say, and I want you to know that. Duke, I even appreciate a lot of what you have to say. But please don't tell people to keep things they feel are important to themselves just because you vehemently disagree with them.

[TheDuke]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

And see here's what I do disagree with. People should be able to discuss everything they feel and have discovered somewhere (even ad nauseum). I'm grateful for people like Reluctant who has shared their opinions and interpretations of scripture. It makes me want to seek more. I especially appreciate it when people share well thought out, rational, logical beliefs founded in scripture. Shutting people down is worse, and one of the biggest problems I have with church. I can't go there to have productive discussions and to grow... I just have to "fit the mold". The real issue is, if you don't like it, you don't have to agree. You don't even have to read it. You can move along, or you can disagree in a logical fashion with scripture as well and have an open discussion. I can't even begin to list the people that have opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about things, and deeper understanding of scripture. I don't even agree with all of it! But at least it gives me pause to think about a different perspective.

So, Reluctant, please... don't keep your opinions to yourself. I appreciate much of what you have to say, and I want you to know that. Duke, I even appreciate a lot of what you have to say. But please don't tell people to keep things they feel are important to themselves just because you vehemently disagree with them.

I agree with what you say! Everyone should share their opinions. But when the statements go from stating opinion to wanting to take others to a new place, when you feel it is your job to share the warts of others to teach them their testimonies are lies, without knowing them really or knowing how they are hanging on to their lives. this is crossing the line IMO. I would never tear down another's testimony to tell them they are believing in lies. I have even stated all are at different levels. To argue with peers is ok. To try and find someone you feel is vulnerable and teach them they are living a lie. Is IMO wrong and what Joseph warned against. BTW he has come right out and said his mission is to get people out of the church and destroy their testimony. See the post above. To me that is across the line according to god.

Putting out your opinion, debating with peers, is another matter.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

Yes, please keep your counsel to yourself.

And what’s up with this… “Follow RW”… nonsense? IMO, to even suggest that because I don’t make the save covenants that you apparently do, by the authority you think the church has, will somehow prevent me from progressing, is not a belief I hold. Obviously.

And stop with the whining about leaving but not leaving well enough alone. It’s a weak and tired argument. If a person feels they have found more happiness and peace, even more pure doctrine and understanding, and that happens to contradict your dictators *cough*, sorry, “leaders, then why wouldn’t I want to share that light with them?

And I’m serious about that. If you sincerely believed that the church you grew up in was apostate and being run by corrupt individuals, wouldn’t you be “anxiously engaged in a good cause” and strive to bring to light all their hidden works of darkness?

I see its warts and no it is not a good cause to make someone else stumble............... because of your pride. I just isn't. And THAT IS what Joseph was talking about~!

How is striving to teach correct doctrine stumbling? How is striving to bring people to Christ stumbling? How is preaching against false doctrine stumbling? How is exposing evil men who are sucking on the teet of Babylon stumbling? How is any of that prideful?

You keep throwing out the word pride, I find it tiresome and flat out wrong. You have no idea what it has taken to step away from the religion of my youth and endure the scorn of family, friends, and leaders.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Everyone is free to do as the please. Follow 'RW and share his reward with him. It is your choice and there are rewards many.

BTW RW I didn't say "you gave up". Giving up has nothing to do with it. Moving on, seeking your own level, that is the purpose of this mortality. No one will be dragged to heaven or to hell. They go where they feel peace. Most, according to Joseph will find their peace in the telestial. So be it. Happy days a head for all. but for those seeking more, keep you opinions, quotes from OT vs. modern scripture to yourself. as it does show the proverbial inability to leave but not leave alone.

And see here's what I do disagree with. People should be able to discuss everything they feel and have discovered somewhere (even ad nauseum). I'm grateful for people like Reluctant who has shared their opinions and interpretations of scripture. It makes me want to seek more. I especially appreciate it when people share well thought out, rational, logical beliefs founded in scripture. Shutting people down is worse, and one of the biggest problems I have with church. I can't go there to have productive discussions and to grow... I just have to "fit the mold". The real issue is, if you don't like it, you don't have to agree. You don't even have to read it. You can move along, or you can disagree in a logical fashion with scripture as well and have an open discussion. I can't even begin to list the people that have opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about things, and deeper understanding of scripture. I don't even agree with all of it! But at least it gives me pause to think about a different perspective.

So, Reluctant, please... don't keep your opinions to yourself. I appreciate much of what you have to say, and I want you to know that. Duke, I even appreciate a lot of what you have to say. But please don't tell people to keep things they feel are important to themselves just because you vehemently disagree with them.

While I will most likely continue various conversations on the forum, my interaction w/ Duke will continue to get less and less.

[Blue Marble]

If a person feels they have found more happiness and peace, even more pure doctrine and understanding, and that happens to contradict your dictators *cough*, sorry, “leaders, then why wouldn’t I want to share that light with them?

Hard to believe your path has brought you peace and happiness, you come off as irritable and malcontented. You’re not alone, everyone I know who’s left the Church has become miserable.