Who REALLY Killed Joseph & Hyrum Smith? A Panel of Experts Debunk WKJS Using Real Ballistics and Forensic Evidence

[Bronco73idi]

Cherry picking, why did he follow who you deem “traitors and tyrants” of that song?

No idea. But the irony is beautiful.

That song could be talking about governor Ford and all leaders who knew Joseph was innocent.

Bogus money followed the church since its interception. It disappeared when the church went out west. I’m not saying Joseph Smith was to blame.

I look at the Bogus money scandal the same as the Vegas problem. Vegas was a LDS settlement that believed in self governing freedom loving families, it’s now Sin city. Crooked men love to flock to innocent loving people and take advantage of them. It’s a huge problem in Utah to this day with scammers and pyramid schemes.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I look at the Bogus money scandal the same as the Vegas problem. Vegas was a LDS settlement that believed in self governing freedom loving families, it’s now Sin city. Crooked men love to flock to innocent loving people and take advantage of them. It’s a huge problem in Utah to this day with scammers and pyramid schemes.

And that's to say nothing of Arizona and the endless (pun intended) threads that EndlessQuestions posted about the corruption in that state and the ties to the LDS org and Maricopa county.

[larsenb]

Good grief. Brother, are you reading what I am writing? I said I looked up Wikipeadia on Flintlock rifles. ...Not Wikipeadia on Jager rifles. Wikipeadia said that Flintlock rifles were "Based on the Jäger rifle..."

I have certain training, but certainly do not know everything. My training and experience is different than PaulH or larsenb. I am certainly not a historian or any kind of expert on black-powder.




This is from: https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/ap ... eld-wounds

"According to statistics in the multi-volume Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion, published by the U.S. government between 1870 and 1888, the vast majority of battlefield wounds, 88 percent to be precise, were caused by rifle or musket fire."

"Twelve percent of gunshot wounds were caused by the .69-caliber smoothbore musket round, whereas 76 percent were inflicted by the more common .58-caliber "Minié" bullet (commonly, but incorrectly, called a ball), used in the rifled muskets of both armies. Between 1863 and 1865 fewer smoothbores were in use than was the case in 1861 and 1862. Hence, the number of injuries caused by .69-caliber rounds decreased dramatically, while those inflicted by Minié bullets rose."

You are correct, there is some guessing on the rounds used on the civil war skulls. The point is that there is massive damage. I'm not sure what mini-balls are, but it sure wasn't artillery!




Good to know.



LOL. I did take time to scan your posts. I'm not looking any further.

You still don’t seem to know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. And you really don’t know what a mini-ball (or minie bullet) is and how it is different than a musket ball?

As far as not being able to find the answer I gave you earlier, it was literally in the response comment I made where I quoted your question. You obviously completely ignored it. But just so you don’t think that I didn’t respond, here it is again:

If Hyrum was shot in the back a second before the shot came through the door, he may have flailed backwards into an awkward position before being struck in the face. He may have also been shot a second time while lying on the ground from the stairwell.

. . . . . . If Hyrum was shot in the back first, I would think there should be a lot more blood on his lower abdomen clothing, right? ...Just like his upper shirt and vest? I believe there is practically no indications of bleeding on his lower torso. Meaning, that shot was most likely made post-mordum?

I pointed out in an earlier post that the Lyon brothers thought that the shot to Hyrum's face cut the right carotid artery in his neck as it exited. They based this on the massive amount of blood covering the right side of his vest and shirt. They further speculated that the arterial bleed-out prevented a lot of blood coming out from his back wound, because of the drastic drop in blood pressure caused by this bleed-out.

This seems like plausible speculation to me.

[larsenb]

IV: "The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions."
larsenb: But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.
IV: “You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.”
larsenb: Ah, really!! My confidence in his findings just took an up-tick. Good to know. I’m also curious about what the detective's theory was. That would be really interesting. At least give me a video hyperlink, time-stamp.

LOL. Well, at least you have a good sense of sarcastic humor! Sorry, I can't do anymore research for you. ...and you already watched all Griffin's videos multiple times. It would be good to review what a true murder detective thinks about all the theories, evidence, and testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJdd ... KJSPodcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KY_j0 ... KJSPodcast

In the effort in making this post, you could have easily indicated what the detective thought about who the murderers were and why. Once again, in a formal debate you wouldn't be able to answer a legitimate question with just a hyperlink. We're having a real, but informal debate here.

My guess is that the underlying reason you don't care to do that is because it detracts from your WR/JT assassination thesis.

[larsenb]

I just looked the song up myself; you are right. Certainly not 'proof', but very interesting.

The use of the words “traitors” and “tyrants” is the most fascinating part. Mobs were not traitors.

Traitor :
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

WW Phelps probably alluded to far more than any of us are aware of.

Can you imagine being any of these traitorous and tyrannical men and singing this song w/ the saints?

Murderous mob action violating personal rights and liberty, certainly violates the rule of law including the Constitution. And what about government officials (Ford, Lilburn Boggs) with their actions? Aren't they traitors to the Constitution, as well.

Dare I admit, I have a first cousin, about 3- 4 times removed who married Boggs or a brother of Boggs (my memory fades).

[Reluctant Watchman]

Like I said, beautiful irony.

[IsaiahVision]

You still don’t seem to know the difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. And you really don’t know what a mini-ball (or minie bullet) is and how it is different than a musket ball?

As far as not being able to find the answer I gave you earlier, it was literally in the response comment I made where I quoted your question. You obviously completely ignored it. But just so you don’t think that I didn’t respond, here it is again:

If Hyrum was shot in the back a second before the shot came through the door, he may have flailed backwards into an awkward position before being struck in the face. He may have also been shot a second time while lying on the ground from the stairwell.

. . . . . . If Hyrum was shot in the back first, I would think there should be a lot more blood on his lower abdomen clothing, right? ...Just like his upper shirt and vest? I believe there is practically no indications of bleeding on his lower torso. Meaning, that shot was most likely made post-mordum?

I pointed out in an earlier post that the Lyon brothers thought that the shot to Hyrum's face cut the right carotid artery in his neck as it exited. They based this on the massive amount of blood covering the right side of his vest and shirt. They further speculated that the arterial bleed-out prevented a lot of blood coming out from his back wound, because of the drastic drop in blood pressure caused by this bleed-out.

This seems like plausible speculation to me.

This is definitely outside my wheelhouse of knowledge. Maybe. The bullet's path hitting such internally doesn't make sense to me. I don't think there was any exterior neck wound? The reports were of a chin wound? Based on how little face damage there was, perhaps a bone fragment went internally through the neck? However, I did look at anatomy drawings of the arteries/veins in the face and lower jaw area; there is a lot of blood vessels around the bullet's trajectory.

Wouldn't a carotid artery hit or nick mean spurting blood?

From having taking a gunshot first-aid class, I do know that a 'bleed out' (of blood) is about the same size as a person's torso. I'm not entirely convinced that his shirt had a "massive amount of blood" on it. It is also possible that some of Hyrum's blood may have flowed/gone down into his lungs, drowning him...especially if he were face up?

[IsaiahVision]

IV: "The detective pretty much agreed with almost all of Griffin's conclusions."
larsenb: But the detective is making a pretty drastic leap to think WR or JT pulled the trigger.
IV: “You are completely wrong because the detective did not 100% agree with Griffin and offered his own theory...WHICH DID NOT INCLUDE WR OR JT BEING THE MURDERS.”
larsenb: Ah, really!! My confidence in his findings just took an up-tick. Good to know. I’m also curious about what the detective's theory was. That would be really interesting. At least give me a video hyperlink, time-stamp.

LOL. Well, at least you have a good sense of sarcastic humor! Sorry, I can't do anymore research for you. ...and you already watched all Griffin's videos multiple times. It would be good to review what a true murder detective thinks about all the theories, evidence, and testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJdd ... KJSPodcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KY_j0 ... KJSPodcast

In the effort in making this post, you could have easily indicated what the detective thought about who the murderers were and why. Once again, in a formal debate you wouldn't be able to answer a legitimate question with just a hyperlink. We're having a real, but informal debate here.

My guess is that the underlying reason you don't care to do that is because it detracts from your WR/JT assassination thesis.

LOL. Whatever; nice try. I work; I simply have more important things to do instead of watching another video AGAIN...and doing your research. ...and about getting in trouble with my wife!

Respectfully, you need to actually watch the video, for real, this time. Come on, just admit you didn't watch it. And, presuming you are retired and all, you actually do have the time?

The seasoned murder detective's opinions, review of Griffin's testing results, point by point, what he agrees with and what he doesn't, should be of great interest to you!


You keep saying 'assassination', which I do not believe is correct. A 'John Wick' assassin's bullet to the back of the head on Joseph and Hyrum would have been all too easy. But, not give JT any plausible deniability? I believe JT's intent (Hostage-Taker theory) was to disarm them and give them over to the mob and let them finish the dirty work as was planned. That is my theory.

[Bronco73idi]

LOL. Well, at least you have a good sense of sarcastic humor! Sorry, I can't do anymore research for you. ...and you already watched all Griffin's videos multiple times. It would be good to review what a true murder detective thinks about all the theories, evidence, and testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJdd ... KJSPodcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KY_j0 ... KJSPodcast

In the effort in making this post, you could have easily indicated what the detective thought about who the murderers were and why. Once again, in a formal debate you wouldn't be able to answer a legitimate question with just a hyperlink. We're having a real, but informal debate here.

My guess is that the underlying reason you don't care to do that is because it detracts from your WR/JT assassination thesis.

LOL. Whatever; nice try. I work; I simply have more important things to do instead of watching another video AGAIN...and doing your research. ...and about getting in trouble with my wife!

Respectfully, you need to actually watch the video, for real, this time. Come on, just admit you didn't watch it. And, presuming you are retired and all, you actually do have the time?

The seasoned murder detective's opinions, review of Griffin's testing results, point by point, what he agrees with and what he doesn't, should be of great interest to you!


You keep saying 'assassination', which I do not believe is correct. A 'John Wick' assassin's bullet to the back of the head on Joseph and Hyrum would have been all too easy. But, not give JT any plausible deniability? I believe JT's intent (Hostage-Taker theory) was to disarm them and give them over to the mob and let them finish the dirty work as was planned. That is my theory.

For something that has been happening for years? Jospeh was that dumb and ignorant?

They were all wanted by the mob for Bogus money!

Why are we so blind to the elephant in the room?

Adultery has passion killings

Messing with money by having a printing press causes assignations.

Governor Ford looked the other way for a reason.

[larsenb]

LOL. Well, at least you have a good sense of sarcastic humor! Sorry, I can't do anymore research for you. ...and you already watched all Griffin's videos multiple times. It would be good to review what a true murder detective thinks about all the theories, evidence, and testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJdd ... KJSPodcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KY_j0 ... KJSPodcast

In the effort in making this post, you could have easily indicated what the detective thought about who the murderers were and why. Once again, in a formal debate you wouldn't be able to answer a legitimate question with just a hyperlink. We're having a real, but informal debate here.

My guess is that the underlying reason you don't care to do that is because it detracts from your WR/JT assassination thesis.

LOL. Whatever; nice try. I work; I simply have more important things to do instead of watching another video AGAIN...and doing your research. ...and about getting in trouble with my wife!

Respectfully, you need to actually watch the video, for real, this time. Come on, just admit you didn't watch it. And, presuming you are retired and all, you actually do have the time?

The seasoned murder detective's opinions, review of Griffin's testing results, point by point, what he agrees with and what he doesn't, should be of great interest to you!


You keep saying 'assassination', which I do not believe is correct. A 'John Wick' assassin's bullet to the back of the head on Joseph and Hyrum would have been all too easy. But, not give JT any plausible deniability? I believe JT's intent (Hostage-Taker theory) was to disarm them and give them over to the mob and let them finish the dirty work as was planned. That is my theory.

But you surely haven’t forgotten what the detective’s opinion was about who killed the Smiths? Of course you haven’t. And once again, I’ve watched portions of the video, to include what he says proves the >2 gun idea, etc., and even transcribed them.

And I just learned that the ‘conspiracy’ allegedly planned and promulgated by WR and JT was originally a hostage-taking scenario, but one that went wrong during its execution. OK, so a hostage ploy gone wrong, not an assassination, per se.

Interesting theory. But you simply aren’t going to find direct proof for it, for the reasons myself and Bjǫrnúlfr have stated, many, many times.

[IsaiahVision]

In the effort in making this post, you could have easily indicated what the detective thought about who the murderers were and why. Once again, in a formal debate you wouldn't be able to answer a legitimate question with just a hyperlink. We're having a real, but informal debate here.

My guess is that the underlying reason you don't care to do that is because it detracts from your WR/JT assassination thesis.

LOL. Whatever; nice try. I work; I simply have more important things to do instead of watching another video AGAIN...and doing your research. ...and about getting in trouble with my wife!

Respectfully, you need to actually watch the video, for real, this time. Come on, just admit you didn't watch it. And, presuming you are retired and all, you actually do have the time?

The seasoned murder detective's opinions, review of Griffin's testing results, point by point, what he agrees with and what he doesn't, should be of great interest to you!


You keep saying 'assassination', which I do not believe is correct. A 'John Wick' assassin's bullet to the back of the head on Joseph and Hyrum would have been all too easy. But, not give JT any plausible deniability? I believe JT's intent (Hostage-Taker theory) was to disarm them and give them over to the mob and let them finish the dirty work as was planned. That is my theory.

But you surely haven’t forgotten what the detective’s opinion was about who killed the Smiths? Of course you haven’t. And once again, I’ve watched portions of the video, to include what he says proves the >2 gun idea, etc., and even transcribed them.

And I just learned that the ‘conspiracy’ allegedly planned and promulgated by WR and JT was originally a hostage-taking scenario, but one that went wrong during its execution. OK, so a hostage ploy gone wrong, not an assassination, per se.

Interesting theory. But you simply aren’t going to find direct proof for it, for the reasons myself and Bjǫrnúlfr have stated, many, many times.

No, of coarse, I have not forgotten the detective's 'theory'. I want you to watch the video to review the detective's entire perspective on the science, gun tests, angles, wounds on Hyrum and JT, possibilities of a shot from outside the window, etc.


Let me re-explain the basics of my THEORY on the conspiracy. I posted this like six pages ago.

It was planned for the mob to do the dirty-work. They didn't expect Joseph and Hyrum to offer armed resistance and shoot back (at the mob). (Can we agree on that last sentence?) I believe the mob was in retreat and tending to their wounded. This all prompted JT to, impromptu, take Hyrum hostage...in order to disarm both Joseph and Hyrum. ...and then to turn them over to the mob to finish the job. In this Mexican-standoff, I believe Hyrum said, "no way" and moved first to shoot JT. The gunfight then took place.

IF Griffin has proved that the witness statements and Church narrative are completely 'wrong'...
You also, obviously, do not believe JT and WR's witness statements and Church narrative, because you keep offering your own theories (or Lyon Brother's) trying to keep justifying JT/WR as 'good guys'?

Then, what really happened in that room?

As PaulH stated, if they lied, are not JT and WR then implicated in possible wrong-doing? Does it not appear that they lied to cover up the murders?
IF most of the wounds can be reasonably deduced to be small arms fire...
There are really no other theories that can logically and reasonably explain Hyrum's vertical chin-shot and most of the other wounds.

I believe my theory does easily explain the chin shot (AS YOU HAVE YOURSELF PREVIOUSLY ADMITTED THAT IT, IN FACT, DOES). I believe the forensics, angles, terminal ballistics, etc, support this theory...which is very close to Griffin's, but slightly altered. However, I fully admit that it is a theory and I am no detective! I could be wrong..maybe...probably not!

According to the detective, they are all theories, while looking at which one has the highest probability (I think he said).

I believe that without more forensics on Hyrum's clothing, exhuming all the bodies for examination, and more tests at Carthage Jail, it would not be 'provable' in a court of law. Please petition the Church to allow a full investigation! Until they do, this question will likely never go away.

----------
As a former LEO and POST instructor, with a criminal justice degree, and more experienced in police investigations, PaulH, your opinion?

[Nevervaxxed]

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense in my view.
Firstly, in a fast moving, fraught situation with a very high risk of fatality, how on earth do you expect Richards and Taylor to keep track of everything going on around them and report it accurately? They were in fear for their own lives and would have been preoccupied with themselves, and not the details of what was happening to Joseph and Hyrum. They weren't taking notes!

With regard to Joseph's statement that some brethren were out to kill him, well of course they were. The Law's and the Higbee's to name four. It is also known that a number of church brethren had met and made a solemn oath to kill Joseph.
Notice the words Joseph used? "... and they are those who have held the priesthood" (past tense). Remember, William Law and others had recently been excommunicated.

To have inaccurate reports from the jail should be expected. In fact, if they weren't, that would be obvious evidence of dishonesty.

Griffin relies on too many tenuous assumptions. How do we know an assailant from the mob didn't run in and kill Hyrum at close quarters? Remember, he had already been shot in the back, so one of the mob could have entered and finished him off.
However, it has already been demonstrated that the head shot to Hyrum could have come from a pistol fired from lower down the stairwell. The angle is certainly possible.
And to claim that between them, Joseph and Hyrum got four shots off at John Taylor from very close range, but couldn't kill him or even inflict life threatening injuries on him, stretches the limits of credibility.

Where did you get the idea that Emma had been blaming Brigham and Kimball for 22 years? It doesn't say that at all. Brigham points out 22 years later that Emma has said this to her children. It doesn't say when she said it. Indeed, David wasn't even born at the time of the martyrdom.

Ultimately, the inside job simply doesn't make sense. It requires us to ignore the fact that several mob members admitted to it, even gloated of their involvement. And it is the case that BY was hundreds of miles away at the time. The inside job also requires a motive. I know Griffin tries to link it to polygamy, but that's just clutching at straws in my view.
To me, the only plausible motive would have been Masonic penalty for breaching promises of secrecy. The problem with that is that the execution of the Masonic penalties are very specific and quite detailed. None of them include the use of firearms.

There is more to it. Polygamy is a big motivation. They already had wives that they were actually shtupping. That then tires into money. Also status, as none wanted to be excommunicated, etc.

Both JT And WR had obvious lies in their accounts, and neither set the record straight later.

I don't agree that JT and WR lied.
In such a situation they couldn't possibly get it right. Put yourself in their position. It's amazing they can remember anything of note.

its called cognitive dissodence - agreeing that JT and WR lied would cause profounds changes to your belief system, likey resulting in a hjuge change in your life... one you obviously aren't willing to make...

[Bronco73idi]

There is more to it. Polygamy is a big motivation. They already had wives that they were actually shtupping. That then tires into money. Also status, as none wanted to be excommunicated, etc.

Both JT And WR had obvious lies in their accounts, and neither set the record straight later.

I don't agree that JT and WR lied.
In such a situation they couldn't possibly get it right. Put yourself in their position. It's amazing they can remember anything of note.

its called cognitive dissodence - agreeing that JT and WR lied would cause profounds changes to your belief system, likey resulting in a hjuge change in your life... one you obviously aren't willing to make...

I have no problem saying JT or WR lied.

I just think it’s ignorant to think polygamy, the thing the lord Jesus Christ liken to the kingdom of heaven, was the motivation!!!

[PaulH]

LOL. Whatever; nice try. I work; I simply have more important things to do instead of watching another video AGAIN...and doing your research. ...and about getting in trouble with my wife!

Respectfully, you need to actually watch the video, for real, this time. Come on, just admit you didn't watch it. And, presuming you are retired and all, you actually do have the time?

The seasoned murder detective's opinions, review of Griffin's testing results, point by point, what he agrees with and what he doesn't, should be of great interest to you!


You keep saying 'assassination', which I do not believe is correct. A 'John Wick' assassin's bullet to the back of the head on Joseph and Hyrum would have been all too easy. But, not give JT any plausible deniability? I believe JT's intent (Hostage-Taker theory) was to disarm them and give them over to the mob and let them finish the dirty work as was planned. That is my theory.

But you surely haven’t forgotten what the detective’s opinion was about who killed the Smiths? Of course you haven’t. And once again, I’ve watched portions of the video, to include what he says proves the >2 gun idea, etc., and even transcribed them.

And I just learned that the ‘conspiracy’ allegedly planned and promulgated by WR and JT was originally a hostage-taking scenario, but one that went wrong during its execution. OK, so a hostage ploy gone wrong, not an assassination, per se.

Interesting theory. But you simply aren’t going to find direct proof for it, for the reasons myself and Bjǫrnúlfr have stated, many, many times.

No, of coarse, I have not forgotten the detective's 'theory'. I want you to watch the video to review the detective's entire perspective on the science, gun tests, angles, wounds on Hyrum and JT, possibilities of a shot from outside the window, etc.


Let me re-explain the basics of my THEORY on the conspiracy. I posted this like six pages ago.

It was planned for the mob to do the dirty-work. They didn't expect Joseph and Hyrum to offer armed resistance and shoot back (at the mob). (Can we agree on that last sentence?) I believe the mob was in retreat and tending to their wounded. This all prompted JT to, impromptu, take Hyrum hostage...in order to disarm both Joseph and Hyrum. ...and then to turn them over to the mob to finish the job. In this Mexican-standoff, I believe Hyrum said, "no way" and moved first to shoot JT. The gunfight then took place.

IF Griffin has proved that the witness statements and Church narrative are completely 'wrong'...
You also, obviously, do not believe JT and WR's witness statements and Church narrative, because you keep offering your own theories (or Lyon Brother's) trying to keep justifying JT/WR as 'good guys'?

Then, what really happened in that room?

As PaulH stated, if they lied, are not JT and WR then implicated in possible wrong-doing? Does it not appear that they lied to cover up the murders?
IF most of the wounds can be reasonably deduced to be small arms fire...
There are really no other theories that can logically and reasonably explain Hyrum's vertical chin-shot and most of the other wounds.

I believe my theory does easily explain the chin shot (AS YOU HAVE YOURSELF PREVIOUSLY ADMITTED THAT IT, IN FACT, DOES). I believe the forensics, angles, terminal ballistics, etc, support this theory...which is very close to Griffin's, but slightly altered. However, I fully admit that it is a theory and I am no detective! I could be wrong..maybe...probably not!

According to the detective, they are all theories, while looking at which one has the highest probability (I think he said).

I believe that without more forensics on Hyrum's clothing, exhuming all the bodies for examination, and more tests at Carthage Jail, it would not be 'provable' in a court of law. Please petition the Church to allow a full investigation! Until they do, this question will likely never go away.

----------
As a former LEO and POST instructor, with a criminal justice degree, and more experienced in police investigations, PaulH, your opinion?

I just want to be clear on my training. When i was a sheriffs deputy, i was a POST certified firearms instructor for the State of Utah. I did not teach at POST, but i did teach and run ranges for the Sheriffs Office where I worked. I have a BS in Criminal Justice from Weber State. Many of my classes were forensics based. I left LE many years ago and am no longer certified with POST. But I am an NRA instructor and I am certified to teach the concealed weapons classes for the UT CC permit.

I agree with IV's statement 100%. It matches the evidence that we have. Many people have suggested other theories, but in nearly every case,
it doesn't match the evidence. Now like i said several pages back, if i was on the jury with this information, its not enough in my opinion for me to vote guilty. There are still many questions that need to be answered. I would wish we could go back in time and use the investigation methods we use today in this investigation. Interview all the witness, have a proper medical examiner do an autopsy, properly process the room for evidence, document the bullet holes, all the things that happen when a crime is committed. Unfortunately we probably wont know the full story until the Savior comes again. I don't believe any of us are married to our position/theory. Its just that, a theory based on the evidence that we currently have. Show me additional credible evidence and I may have to reconsider.

Something to consider, one of the first things done in the court room is to try and discredit the witnesses. It would not be hard to discredit JT and WR in this case. If it can be proven that they lied in their statements, wouldn't the rest of their story be suspect? Their story is where most of the details come from. Nearly everything they said could be fabricated. Which is why i don't trust them or their story. The only thing we currently have is the evidence we are looking at. This is just like covid. Many of us were jolted out of our trance when the q15 came out with their safe and effective statement. We knew it was wrong. After i got over my shock of their lies and misrepresentations. My first thought was, if they will lie to me about the covid vax, what else are the lying about. I have been down the rabbit hole ever since. Maybe I am too cynical.

Because of my training, i get fixated on the evidence details, which frustrates some of you. But very small details can win or lose a case. Very small details can determine innocence or guilt.

Sorry for my ramblings.

[Nevervaxxed]

I don't agree that JT and WR lied.
In such a situation they couldn't possibly get it right. Put yourself in their position. It's amazing they can remember anything of note.

its called cognitive dissodence - agreeing that JT and WR lied would cause profounds changes to your belief system, likey resulting in a hjuge change in your life... one you obviously aren't willing to make...

I have no problem saying JT or WR lied.

I just think it’s ignorant to think polygamy, the thing the lord Jesus Christ liken to the kingdom of heaven, was the motivation!!!

that's funny given that the "most correct book", as JS himself said, condemns polygammy.... I don't recall Christ ever likening polygammy (which has destroyed many people's lives) to t he kingdom of heaven....

[Nevervaxxed]

I look at the Bogus money scandal the same as the Vegas problem. Vegas was a LDS settlement that believed in self governing freedom loving families, it’s now Sin city. Crooked men love to flock to innocent loving people and take advantage of them. It’s a huge problem in Utah to this day with scammers and pyramid schemes.

And that's to say nothing of Arizona and the endless (pun intended) threads that EndlessQuestions posted about the corruption in that state and the ties to the LDS org and Maricopa county.

A-freakin'-men!!!! to much smoke for there not to be fire!

[Bronco73idi]

its called cognitive dissodence - agreeing that JT and WR lied would cause profounds changes to your belief system, likey resulting in a hjuge change in your life... one you obviously aren't willing to make...

I have no problem saying JT or WR lied.

I just think it’s ignorant to think polygamy, the thing the lord Jesus Christ liken to the kingdom of heaven, was the motivation!!!

that's funny given that the "most correct book", as JS himself said, condemns polygammy.... I don't recall Christ ever likening polygammy (which has destroyed many people's lives) to t he kingdom of heaven....

It condemns abuse of it. Many wives and concubines.

If I were you I would believe Jesus’s parables.

Matthew 13
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

You are better off telling yourself that the parable of the ten virgins is made up by a random author.

Matthew 13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[The Red Pill]

But you surely haven’t forgotten what the detective’s opinion was about who killed the Smiths? Of course you haven’t. And once again, I’ve watched portions of the video, to include what he says proves the >2 gun idea, etc., and even transcribed them.

And I just learned that the ‘conspiracy’ allegedly planned and promulgated by WR and JT was originally a hostage-taking scenario, but one that went wrong during its execution. OK, so a hostage ploy gone wrong, not an assassination, per se.

Interesting theory. But you simply aren’t going to find direct proof for it, for the reasons myself and Bjǫrnúlfr have stated, many, many times.

No, of coarse, I have not forgotten the detective's 'theory'. I want you to watch the video to review the detective's entire perspective on the science, gun tests, angles, wounds on Hyrum and JT, possibilities of a shot from outside the window, etc.


Let me re-explain the basics of my THEORY on the conspiracy. I posted this like six pages ago.

It was planned for the mob to do the dirty-work. They didn't expect Joseph and Hyrum to offer armed resistance and shoot back (at the mob). (Can we agree on that last sentence?) I believe the mob was in retreat and tending to their wounded. This all prompted JT to, impromptu, take Hyrum hostage...in order to disarm both Joseph and Hyrum. ...and then to turn them over to the mob to finish the job. In this Mexican-standoff, I believe Hyrum said, "no way" and moved first to shoot JT. The gunfight then took place.

IF Griffin has proved that the witness statements and Church narrative are completely 'wrong'...
You also, obviously, do not believe JT and WR's witness statements and Church narrative, because you keep offering your own theories (or Lyon Brother's) trying to keep justifying JT/WR as 'good guys'?

Then, what really happened in that room?

As PaulH stated, if they lied, are not JT and WR then implicated in possible wrong-doing? Does it not appear that they lied to cover up the murders?
IF most of the wounds can be reasonably deduced to be small arms fire...
There are really no other theories that can logically and reasonably explain Hyrum's vertical chin-shot and most of the other wounds.

I believe my theory does easily explain the chin shot (AS YOU HAVE YOURSELF PREVIOUSLY ADMITTED THAT IT, IN FACT, DOES). I believe the forensics, angles, terminal ballistics, etc, support this theory...which is very close to Griffin's, but slightly altered. However, I fully admit that it is a theory and I am no detective! I could be wrong..maybe...probably not!

According to the detective, they are all theories, while looking at which one has the highest probability (I think he said).

I believe that without more forensics on Hyrum's clothing, exhuming all the bodies for examination, and more tests at Carthage Jail, it would not be 'provable' in a court of law. Please petition the Church to allow a full investigation! Until they do, this question will likely never go away.

----------
As a former LEO and POST instructor, with a criminal justice degree, and more experienced in police investigations, PaulH, your opinion?

The only thing we currently have is the evidence we are looking at. This is just like covid. Many of us were jolted out of our trance when the q15 came out with their safe and effective statement. We knew it was wrong. After i got over my shock of their lies and misrepresentations. My first thought was, if they will lie to me about the covid vax, what else are the lying about. I have been down the rabbit hole ever since. Maybe I am too cynical.

I went through an almost identical journey after the deadly-juice urging. I consider it one of the greatest times of discovery in my life. No, you're not being cynical.

For those still promoting polygamy...consider history as your guide. Certain times would be critical for God to institute it based on lack of population...if it was a correct doctrine...but he DIDN'T....NOT ONCE!!!!

Adam and Eve.....Nope
Noah after flood....Nope
Lehi and Nephi in wilderness...Nope
King Benjamin...Nope
Nephites after Christ's visit...Nope
Christ in Jerusalem...Nope
Apostles after Christ's death...Nope
First 250 years of church A.D....Nope
Moroni...Nope
Alma...Nope
City of Enoch...Nope

I could continue...do you see a pattern???

[IsaiahVision]

I have no problem saying JT or WR lied.

I just think it’s ignorant to think polygamy, the thing the lord Jesus Christ liken to the kingdom of heaven, was the motivation!!!

that's funny given that the "most correct book", as JS himself said, condemns polygammy.... I don't recall Christ ever likening polygammy (which has destroyed many people's lives) to t he kingdom of heaven....

It condemns abuse of it. Many wives and concubines.

If I were you I would believe Jesus’s parables.

Matthew 13
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

You are better off telling yourself that the parable of the ten virgins is made up by a random author.

Matthew 13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Respectfully, you originally quoted Matthew 25:1. I looked it up immediately when you wrote it down. It is the parable of the 10 virgins. …the 5 wise and the 5 unwise. ….Nothing to do with polygamy.

Have not the latter day prophets taught that the virgins represent the members of the church, those that have oil, and those that do not?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

There may be other scriptures, I just don’t think this is it.

[Bronco73idi]

that's funny given that the "most correct book", as JS himself said, condemns polygammy.... I don't recall Christ ever likening polygammy (which has destroyed many people's lives) to t he kingdom of heaven....

It condemns abuse of it. Many wives and concubines.

If I were you I would believe Jesus’s parables.

Matthew 13
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

You are better off telling yourself that the parable of the ten virgins is made up by a random author.

Matthew 13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Respectfully, you originally quoted Matthew 25:1. I looked it up immediately when you wrote it down. It is the parable of the 10 virgins. …the 5 wise and the 5 unwise. ….Nothing to do with polygamy.

Have not the latter day prophets taught that the virgins represent the members of the church, those that have oil, and those that do not?

There may be other scriptures, I just don’t think this is it.

Yes I did, who do those virgins marry in the dead of night? The bridegroom…..


Yes the lord liken the kingdom of heaven to a polygamist marriage…..

The virgins are his saints and half of them have the wick lite, meaning that the wick isn’t dry. The wick goes out, ie the saint doesn’t know the bridegroom and won’t see him.

The bridegroom is the lord.

So everything you said is correct, you just completely missed the base of the story.

Should we go over Matthew 13? It’s a story about a mustard farmer.

[IsaiahVision]

I suggest this is a topic for a new thread.

[Bronco73idi]

I suggest this is a topic for a new thread.

I understand why but at the same time, it’s the motivation for JT to kill JS!


No one wants to talk about bogus money, bogus money charges is why they left Kirtland…..


This was a serious issue for the church prior to SLC! Facts are facts

[IsaiahVision]

Well, I agree with your first sentence. Although, it was never really a factor for me in simply looking at the evidence and testing by Griffin.

I'm not sure about bogus money. Is that in 'Saints'? Where can one generally find out about this? Surely, not on the Church's website.

As we've discussed previously (and I've posted links for) motive is NOT necessary to prove a crime. Although, it can be helpful to fit all the pieces together.

[Bronco73idi]

Well, I agree with your first sentence. Although, it was never really a factor for me in simply looking at the evidence and testing by Griffin.

I'm not sure about bogus money. Is that in 'Saints'? Where can one generally find out about this? Surely, not on the Church's website.

As we've discussed previously (and I've posted links for) motive is NOT necessary to prove a crime. Although, it can be helpful to fit all the pieces together.

Bogus money is called counterfeit money today.

Jospeh Smith papers

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/intro ... nuary-1846

“In addition, Latter-day Saints worried that their enemies would pursue charges against church leaders in local and federal courts. Although the agreement brokered by John J. Hardin between church leaders and the anti-Mormons in Illinois in early October 1845 had stated that no prosecutions on either side would take place while the Saints prepared to leave the state, anti-Mormons proffered charges of counterfeiting against Young and other leaders in local courts later that month. Governor Ford and Major William B. Warren, the head of the peacekeeping force in Hancock County set in place by Hardin, refused to enforce the writs,18 but on 31 October several church leaders nevertheless met to make plans to evade authorities should government officials attempt “to prevent our removal West by taking out U.S. writs for the council of Fifty.”19 Stymied by local and state authorities, anti-Mormons appealed to the federal court in Springfield, Illinois. On 18 December a federal grand jury indicted Young for counterfeiting Mexican and American coins.20 The grand jury also issued bills of indictment for four other members of the Quorum of the Twelve, Council of Fifty members Theodore Turley and Peter Haws, and several non-Mormons who had previously been associated with the church, such as former council members Edward Bonney and Merinus G. Eaton.21
Although some of the indicted men—such as Eaton and Haws—were likely counterfeiters,22 the scope of the alleged counterfeiting in Nauvoo was clearly exaggerated and some of the charges were likely fabrications. In reality, the Mormons in Nauvoo—like most Americans in western states like Illinois—were specie poor; financial records suggest that much of the business in Nauvoo was conducted through barter and exchange.23 After the indictment, Brigham Young narrowly escaped arrest when a deputy federal marshal came to Nauvoo on 23 December and waited outside the temple for him. Learning of the situation, church leaders disguised Henry Miller in a cloak and sent him down with George D. Grant. When Grant addressed Miller as if the latter were Young, the marshal arrested Miller and then left the city with his prize, traveling all the way to Carthage before the ruse was discovered.



Why did Joseph order the destruction of the Nauvoo expositor?


https://hemlockknots.com/why-was-the-na ... destroyed/


Counterfeiting Currency or Making “Bogus” in Nauvoo

William Law started his own church May 1844, the month before publishing the Nauvoo Expositor. (1:57)
William & Wilson Law purchasing dies for making “bogus” (counterfeit) money (2:20, #1)
Joseph H. Jackson’s involvement in counterfeiting “trying to make bogus, which was his principle business” (3:41, #2)
Joseph H. Jackson faked his conversion to the church to expose Joseph Smith. He threatened to take Hyrum’s teenage daughter as wife by deadly force, and entertaining a job as a hired mercenary to kill Joseph Smith for William Law (4:21, #2,3)
What types of currency did they counterfeit? (6:44, #4,5)

[Robin Hood]

There is more to it. Polygamy is a big motivation. They already had wives that they were actually shtupping. That then tires into money. Also status, as none wanted to be excommunicated, etc.

Both JT And WR had obvious lies in their accounts, and neither set the record straight later.

I don't agree that JT and WR lied.
In such a situation they couldn't possibly get it right. Put yourself in their position. It's amazing they can remember anything of note.

its called cognitive dissodence - agreeing that JT and WR lied would cause profounds changes to your belief system, likey resulting in a hjuge change in your life... one you obviously aren't willing to make...

Or, alternatively, it could genuinely be what I said.
And for the record, I'm well aware of what cognitive dissonance is, and can assure you it's not an issue in my life.
But I have been in some highly stressful incidents at various times in my life, so am speaking from experience when I say that Taylor and Richards would remember very little by way of factual detail. They would remember thoughts, feelings and fears way more.