The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

For non-mainstream, heterodoxical, esoteric discussions. Request access to the Heretic Group here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Magus
captain of 100
Posts: 454

The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Magus »

Mind you, I am not saying the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and an irony-filled joke.

I'm saying the Church's policy on it is, as you have to be abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee to be "worthy" to enter the temple -

- and yet Jesus drank wine and was the worthiest of all.
- Many, many of us are totally unhealthy with our diets, which flies in the face of the Word of Wisdom, yet are still "worthy" to enter
- we have created an opportunity to "sin" that did not exist before
- we have created extra hurdles and difficulties for people to join the Church and enjoy the blessings of the temple, who would otherwise do so

The Word of Wisdom is largely about moderation and self-control, not abstinence, anyway.

Maybe it worked, on some level, to enforce it so rigorously back in the days when we were primarily a shut-in Utah church. But those days are gone.

So unless the Lord has other designs on this matter....I say it's time to drop this policy and let the members govern themselves.

Sound good?

Let's take it to the Brethren. I'm sure they'll make it a matter of serious prayer. :lol:

That's actually the sad thing....that we know they won't. Because it has become such an ingrained tradition in Church culture that it's almost unthinkable to take the idea of getting rid of the current policy seriously.

Sad. Very sad. Is there any hope?

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11136
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

"It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense! It's supposed to be a test of obedience!"

4Joshua8
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2470

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by 4Joshua8 »

“To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint”…really simple.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15032

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Niemand »

The good news is that while you can't have a mocha, you can take cannabis. That's according to the advice of current church leaders:
viewtopic.php?t=64034

User avatar
Momma J
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1637

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Momma J »

Don't worry, you can also have all the sugar that you could possibly inhale. In fact, sugary treats are encouraged and pushed on us. We are no longer taught about gardening or creating healthy meals for our families. We can drink our cokes and eat our big macs.... When sleepy just down some red bulls... It's all good.

You can take every medicine that you doctor will prescribe, so that you can avoid stress and sleep. Fill your children with Adderall and Ritalin so that they will walk quietly in a line...

User avatar
IsaiahVision
captain of 100
Posts: 355
Location: G.Grandson of several famous Heretics

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by IsaiahVision »

Amen, I agree!

User avatar
Magus
captain of 100
Posts: 454

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Magus »

So here's a question for laughs:

Temple recommend question #11: "Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?"

Seems to me you could answer yes, even if you were drinking wine, coffee or tea and/or maybe enjoying a pipe or something now and then - and still be understanding and obeying the Word of Wisdom. After all the WoW says "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints"

Now, I know the intent of SLC is to have people, by policy, practicing abstinence.....but the temple recommend question still says what it says.

Would it really be dishonest to say you are obeying it? Would God be displeased if you said you were and went ahead and got that recommend and went to the temple?
Last edited by Magus on September 13th, 2023, 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
creator
(of the Forum)
Posts: 8424
Location: The Matrix
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by creator »

Magus wrote: September 10th, 2023, 3:30 pm Mind you, I am not saying the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and an irony-filled joke.

I'm saying the Church's policy on it is...
It's what happens when a Church becomes too dogmatic rather than simply teaching correct principles and letting the people govern themselves.

User avatar
MikeMaillet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1919
Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by MikeMaillet »

How many good people have we turned away because of our "holier than thou" attitude regarding the WoW?

Mike

User avatar
Libertas Est Salus
captain of 100
Posts: 708

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Libertas Est Salus »

MikeMaillet wrote: September 17th, 2023, 12:22 pm How many good people have we turned away because of our "holier than thou" attitude regarding the WoW?

Mike
Isn't it odd that as a matter of policy we do not punish violations of the word of wisdom, but we use noncompliance as a barrier-to-entry for those who want to join?

"Sorry, you don't obey the Word of Wisdom as presently interpreted, so you can't become a member. But if you eventually qualify and join, you can then violate the WoW all you want, without any effect on your membership."

User avatar
Magus
captain of 100
Posts: 454

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Magus »

Libertas Est Salus wrote: October 4th, 2023, 9:06 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: September 17th, 2023, 12:22 pm How many good people have we turned away because of our "holier than thou" attitude regarding the WoW?

Mike
Isn't it odd that as a matter of policy we do not punish violations of the word of wisdom, but we use noncompliance as a barrier-to-entry for those who want to join?

"Sorry, you don't obey the Word of Wisdom as presently interpreted, so you can't become a member. But if you eventually qualify and join, you can then violate the WoW all you want, without any effect on your membership."
1,110%

Extremely good point.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13398
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Thinker »

Momma J wrote: September 11th, 2023, 7:51 am Don't worry, you can also have all the sugar that you could possibly inhale. In fact, sugary treats are encouraged and pushed on us. We are no longer taught about gardening or creating healthy meals for our families. We can drink our cokes and eat our big macs.... When sleepy just down some red bulls... It's all good.

You can take every medicine that you doctor will prescribe, so that you can avoid stress and sleep. Fill your children with Adderall and Ritalin so that they will walk quietly in a line...
Considering heart disease (which is correlated with obesity) is the #1 cause of death, after abortion, it is insane to ignore that while focusing on green tea being so wrong in their eyes etc.

User avatar
NeveR
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1264

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by NeveR »

I don't think there's even any consensus about what is or isn't permissible is there? Eg - No one seems to be able to decide if it's the caffeine that's undesirable or the "hotness". Some LDS drink coke but eschew herbal tea, and others do the exact opposite, both in "obedience" to the same advice . 🤷‍♀️

And don't get me started on the meat in moderation and "staff of life" stuff. I believe those dictates are at least partly responsible for the astonishing number of grossly obese LDS I see in our ward and elsewhere.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 17185
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Some of you obviously aren't taking your vitamins.

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4323

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: September 11th, 2023, 4:32 am The good news is that while you can't have a mocha, you can take cannabis. That's according to the advice of current church leaders:
viewtopic.php?t=64034
I had mocha brownies on conference Sunday with friends (that included the stake president's family) at a brunch.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15032

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Niemand »

NeveR wrote: October 6th, 2023, 9:31 am I don't think there's even any consensus about what is or isn't permissible is there? Eg - No one seems to be able to decide if it's the caffeine that's undesirable or the "hotness". Some LDS drink coke but eschew herbal tea, and others do the exact opposite, both in "obedience" to the same advice . 🤷‍♀️

And don't get me started on the meat in moderation and "staff of life" stuff. I believe those dictates are at least partly responsible for the astonishing number of grossly obese LDS I see in our ward and elsewhere.
I'm the same. I drink alcohol free beer, but don't touch decaff coffee. I drink caffeinated soft drinks/soda but do not drink taurine based drinks.

I find if I eat unprocessed (or barely processed) meat, I lose weight when I omit bread and potato.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3180
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by SJR3t2 »

D&C 89:2 not by commandment nor constraint
D&C 89:5 use wine for the sacrament
D&C 89:17 mild barley drink aka beer is good for men

D&C (LDS 89:2,5,17) (RLDS 86) (1835 80) (1844 81)
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, CONSTRAINT:

CONSTRAINT, noun Irresistible force, or its effect; any force, or power, physical or moral, which compels to act or to forbear action, or which urges so strongly as to produce its effect upon the body or mind; compulsion; restraint; confinement.
Not by constraint but by my choice, I came.
Feed the flock of God, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint but willingly. 1 Peter 5:2.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, MILD:

2. Not acrid, pungent, corrosive or drastic; operating gently; not acrimonious; demulcent; mollifying; lenitive; assuasive; as a mild LIQUOR; a mild cataplasm; a mild cathartic or emetic.

https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/word-of-wisdom/

User avatar
creator
(of the Forum)
Posts: 8424
Location: The Matrix
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by creator »

Niemand wrote: October 7th, 2023, 6:51 am...I drink caffeinated soft drinks/soda but do not drink taurine based drinks.
Why no taurine? Is it simply because those are typically "energy drinks" or something specific about taurine that you avoid?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15032

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Niemand »

creator wrote: October 17th, 2023, 9:42 am
Niemand wrote: October 7th, 2023, 6:51 am...I drink caffeinated soft drinks/soda but do not drink taurine based drinks.
Why no taurine? Is it simply because those are typically "energy drinks" or something specific about taurine that you avoid?
Personal experience. It was messing with my heart, sleep patterns and causing me anxiety. I've heard the same from others. It is also notorious for causing epileptic fits.

User avatar
Seed Starter
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1551
Location: Soft words create hard hearts
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Seed Starter »

Momma J wrote: September 11th, 2023, 7:51 am Don't worry, you can also have all the sugar that you could possibly inhale. In fact, sugary treats are encouraged and pushed on us. We are no longer taught about gardening or creating healthy meals for our families. We can drink our cokes and eat our big macs.... When sleepy just down some red bulls... It's all good.

You can take every medicine that you doctor will prescribe, so that you can avoid stress and sleep. Fill your children with Adderall and Ritalin so that they will walk quietly in a line...
Here in Utah county we have all sorts of dumb a** soda shops, 1" thick cookie shops, and all manner of bootstrapped BS sugar startups to push the Utah state chemical - sugar. How about using this as a starting point, the Lord wants you to take care of your body, so do the best you can. Not doing dumb stuff is only the beginning. I struggle with different things but I'm constantly trying to learn more about what I can do to take care of myself. I know a person who drinks Nyquil before bed every night just to fall asleep. This person would never sip a cup of coffee because it would keep them from the temple.

User avatar
creator
(of the Forum)
Posts: 8424
Location: The Matrix
Contact:

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by creator »

Niemand wrote: October 17th, 2023, 12:46 pmPersonal experience. It was messing with my heart, sleep patterns and causing me anxiety. I've heard the same from others. It is also notorious for causing epileptic fits.
Ah, makes sense. I know some recommended avoiding coffee and tea because it affects our bodies natural rhythms, probably similar with taurine. Possibly the reasoning behind that part of the WoW as well. "..and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge".

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15032

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Niemand »

creator wrote: October 17th, 2023, 7:34 pm
Niemand wrote: October 17th, 2023, 12:46 pmPersonal experience. It was messing with my heart, sleep patterns and causing me anxiety. I've heard the same from others. It is also notorious for causing epileptic fits.
Ah, makes sense. I know some recommended avoiding coffee and tea because it affects our bodies natural rhythms, probably similar with taurine. Possibly the reasoning behind that part of the WoW as well. "..and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge".
I've found taurine to be worse than caffeine. It was doing things to my heart. I gave it up at least twenty years ago and haven't had trouble since. I think I would have almost certain taken a heart attack on it.

Shaffer89
captain of 100
Posts: 235

Re: The Church's policy on the Word of Wisdom is a stumbling block and irony-filled joke.

Post by Shaffer89 »

This topic came up with my bishop since I started coming back to church and my wife was recently baptized. I was relieved to find that, while he felt the need to share his belief with me, he then told me that if I could honestly say yes to the temple recommend question then it is not even up for discussion and I dont need to go into detail about any aspect of my beliefs unless I question it and want his input. I am glad because I was ready to argue the point and was worried that it would turn a genuine temple recommend interview into a contentious mess. I am sure that I will come across some leaders in the future that disagree, but I was relieved to find that there are still many wonderful people in the church that I can respect.
I do take issue with how the topic is taught though, and I wish we did more to teach personal revelation and the idea that we should have a spectrum of understandings and levels of commitment. It seems like we are all expected to meet some baseline of Mormon righteousness and conform when I don't think that is what the church is for. Like I am ok with saying that we need to have a certain level of commitment and understanding of gospel principles to make covenants in the temple, but we seem to make those the minimum expectation for just going to church


Post Reply