The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:07 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:44 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:38 am

So trinity? Got it

Weird how Jospeh was the biggest opponent against the Trinity but he translated the BOM. He must have been stupid lol
Actually he was stupid in seeking the approval of men and adding to God's truth. It must have been an insurmountable attraction for him to as a poor farm boy to be given so much admiration by followers of the Book of Mormon: especially all the cute girls.
So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:22 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:07 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:44 am

Actually he was stupid in seeking the approval of men and adding to God's truth. It must have been an insurmountable attraction for him to as a poor farm boy to be given so much admiration by followers of the Book of Mormon: especially all the cute girls.
So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.
Then read John chapter 8! Don’t unrighteously judge me of blasphemy!

John 8
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Be a child of God and humble yourself and read John’s words of our Lord’s words!

Bronco73idi
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:22 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:07 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:44 am

Actually he was stupid in seeking the approval of men and adding to God's truth. It must have been an insurmountable attraction for him to as a poor farm boy to be given so much admiration by followers of the Book of Mormon: especially all the cute girls.
So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.
“But Abinadi said!!!!”

John 8
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:00 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:22 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:07 am

So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.
Then read John chapter 8! Don’t unrighteously judge me of blasphemy!

John 8
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Be a child of God and humble yourself and read John’s words of our Lord’s words!
I didn't accuse you of anything. I was trying to make sense of your riddles.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:11 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:22 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:07 am

So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.
“But Abinadi said!!!!”

John 8
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Not sure why you mock Abinadi. Do you not believe he revealed who the Father was? Do you really think Christ would reveal these things to Jews who wanted to kill Him before His time?

I will say that between books I will go with the Book of Mormon everytime. I really don't want to be baited into contention. If that is your end-goal, this will be my last post on this thread. So have the last word if that is important to you. If you want a non-accusatory exchange, I may continue.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:21 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:11 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 9:22 am
Not sure what words you are trying to twist to support your cause. So it is all riddles to me. The bottom line is wresting the Book of Mormon will bring destruction.
“But Abinadi said!!!!”

John 8
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Not sure why you mock Abinadi. Do you not believe he revealed who the Father was? Do you really think Christ would reveal these things to Jews who wanted to kill Him before His time?

I will say that between books I will go with the Book of Mormon everytime. I really don't want to be baited into contention. If that is your end-goal, this will be my last post on this thread. So have the last word if that is important to you. If you want a non-accusatory exchange, I may continue.

“I really don't want to be baited into contention.”

Do you not understand your own words?

“I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church.”

Your leading statement is a statement of condemnation and contention!

I mocked your interpretation of Abinadi words, not his words!

I understand what I write, sometimes I err….

If your leading statement was formed in a question about how all of the BOM says how the lord is the father, I would have answered it.

If our opinion of interpretation doesn’t fit all 3 standards then we should ask the Lord, obviously we did all we could do by checking all 3 standards, books.

Remember Abinadi was amongst the heathens, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one as in monotheism. One will one way.

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FrankOne
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by FrankOne »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:42 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?
I believe Adam = our father in heaven.

How can one take the Bible seriously if they don’t?

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.
fascinating!

I thought I was an avid student of the Book of Thomas and I missed that possibility. I say possibility because he could just be referring to The Christ. Interesting. Jesus did talk about himself in third person now and again.

always something new to think about, thanks

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:40 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:21 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:11 am

“But Abinadi said!!!!”

John 8
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Not sure why you mock Abinadi. Do you not believe he revealed who the Father was? Do you really think Christ would reveal these things to Jews who wanted to kill Him before His time?

I will say that between books I will go with the Book of Mormon everytime. I really don't want to be baited into contention. If that is your end-goal, this will be my last post on this thread. So have the last word if that is important to you. If you want a non-accusatory exchange, I may continue.

“I really don't want to be baited into contention.”

Do you not understand your own words?

“I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church.”

Your leading statement is a statement of condemnation and contention!

I mocked your interpretation of Abinadi words, not his words!

I understand what I write, sometimes I err….

If your leading statement was formed in a question about how all of the BOM says how the lord is the father, I would have answered it.

If our opinion of interpretation doesn’t fit all 3 standards then we should ask the Lord, obviously we did all we could do by checking all 3 standards, books.

Remember Abinadi was amongst the heathens, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one as in monotheism. One will one way.
Farewell brother. Best wishes.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 11:12 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:40 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:21 am
Not sure why you mock Abinadi. Do you not believe he revealed who the Father was? Do you really think Christ would reveal these things to Jews who wanted to kill Him before His time?

I will say that between books I will go with the Book of Mormon everytime. I really don't want to be baited into contention. If that is your end-goal, this will be my last post on this thread. So have the last word if that is important to you. If you want a non-accusatory exchange, I may continue.

“I really don't want to be baited into contention.”

Do you not understand your own words?

“I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church.”

Your leading statement is a statement of condemnation and contention!

I mocked your interpretation of Abinadi words, not his words!

I understand what I write, sometimes I err….

If your leading statement was formed in a question about how all of the BOM says how the lord is the father, I would have answered it.

If our opinion of interpretation doesn’t fit all 3 standards then we should ask the Lord, obviously we did all we could do by checking all 3 standards, books.

Remember Abinadi was amongst the heathens, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one as in monotheism. One will one way.
Farewell brother. Best wishes.
What amazes me is that people can disown the Bible if it doesn’t fit into their own personal interpretation.

John 10
30 I and my Father are one.

Sounds like what Abinadi was referring too.

All of the BOM pushes for Monotheism, just about every religion around the children of Abraham practice polytheism.


Hmmmm…..

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

FrankOne wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:48 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:42 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm

the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?
I believe Adam = our father in heaven.

How can one take the Bible seriously if they don’t?

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.
fascinating!

I thought I was an avid student of the Book of Thomas and I missed that possibility. I say possibility because he could just be referring to The Christ. Interesting. Jesus did talk about himself in third person now and again.

always something new to think about, thanks
I wasn’t looking, searching, for anything when I was listening to the Gospel of Thomas. The spirit was strong, through the whole thing and 15 and 18 hit hard, of truth.

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TheDuke
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Abinadi was teaching truth. but reread verse 1. "god shall come down". Of course a god, the god, one god, a resurrected being of celestial glory already in the highest level of celestial realm will "condescend" to come down and be "the son". To suffer as a man, to give up (temporarily) his glory, to atone for all mankind. SO, it doesn't say "the Father" or "Elohim" or any such thing. It simply says "god". I'm not saying just any god BTW, I'm saying he is the firstborn of the Father.

Read D&C 93 as well and all other books and chapters about Jesus' condescension. You need to dig deeper into what the scriptures teach.

Jesus is the son because he came here to do the Father's will; as it says in Abraham 3 to give the Father the honor. The honor is to bring to the Father enlarged spirits to become the Father's children. Those who accept Jesus become his children who Jesus will offer (when they are made pure) to the Father. To really see this read what Lucifer wanted in the Father's honor, his children. to take impure spirits/intelligences (pick your pre-spirit children nomenclature) and progress them to become literal offspring of god, is the task of the Son! I.e. to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jesus is the father because those who accept him, he becomes their father or savior for eternity. Jesus is not his own father. Neither will he be his own Son down the road, according to JS in KFD. Jesus becomes the father in the next eternal round, he earned this position/title/right, etc...

No where in the BoM or Bible does it say Jesus is his own father, i.e. trinity. I suggest a very deep study of what happened in the pre-mortal council. I started a couple threads on it about the third part and Lucifer wanting the father's honor. If you can comprehend what was at stake in this planning session, then you will see who Jesus really is, was, and will become (tenses around the time of the atonement BTW).

Also, I guess this would be a red herring for some here, but there are many fathers in the celestial realm. There are children on this earth from many different fathers (and mothers). The Father is Jesus father for sure, he is "begotten of him", we are not (necessarily but some perhaps) as we are "begotten to him". Is this not so very clear in every writing? The difference between begotten of and to? The Father, Jesus' father is the father of this creation, so in a way he is a father to all on this earth, for the duration of this creation period. Longer for those who retain their first estate. Read D&C 88, it clarifies issues with 76 about those who fail to keep their first estate. The concept that failing a first estate results in perdition is made up by 20th century LDS leaders, it is simply not in the scriptures or even non-canonized JS teachings. Read 88:32, they simply return to whence they came from!

This creation is about Jesus leading a campaign to bring intelligences to the father(s) to become literal offspring of the gods (fathers), led by The Father, and executed by The Son. I'd suggest more deep scripture reading and a bit less reliance on RMN, McConkie, and JFS, etc. I don't buy Adam-God Theory as stated by BY, but even he is closer to understanding and teaching truth than those LDS leaders that never new JS. Not that the teachings today and after Joseph are wrong, they are just confusing and more telestial and terrestrial than Joseph taught in the last 2-3 years of his ministry.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

TheDuke wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:19 pm
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Abinadi was teaching truth. but reread verse 1. "god shall come down". Of course a god, the god, one god, a resurrected being of celestial glory already in the highest level of celestial realm will "condescend" to come down and be "the son". To suffer as a man, to give up (temporarily) his glory, to atone for all mankind. SO, it doesn't say "the Father" or "Elohim" or any such thing. It simply says "god". I'm not saying just any god BTW, I'm saying he is the firstborn of the Father.

Read D&C 93 as well and all other books and chapters about Jesus' condescension. You need to dig deeper into what the scriptures teach.

Jesus is the son because he came here to do the Father's will; as it says in Abraham 3 to give the Father the honor. The honor is to bring to the Father enlarged spirits to become the Father's children. Those who accept Jesus become his children who Jesus will offer (when they are made pure) to the Father. To really see this read what Lucifer wanted in the Father's honor, his children. to take impure spirits/intelligences (pick your pre-spirit children nomenclature) and progress them to become literal offspring of god, is the task of the Son! I.e. to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jesus is the father because those who accept him, he becomes their father or savior for eternity. Jesus is not his own father. Neither will he be his own Son down the road, according to JS in KFD. Jesus becomes the father in the next eternal round, he earned this position/title/right, etc...

No where in the BoM or Bible does it say Jesus is his own father, i.e. trinity. I suggest a very deep study of what happened in the pre-mortal council. I started a couple threads on it about the third part and Lucifer wanting the father's honor. If you can comprehend what was at stake in this planning session, then you will see who Jesus really is, was, and will become (tenses around the time of the atonement BTW).

Also, I guess this would be a red herring for some here, but there are many fathers in the celestial realm. There are children on this earth from many different fathers (and mothers). The Father is Jesus father for sure, he is "begotten of him", we are not (necessarily but some perhaps) as we are "begotten to him". Is this not so very clear in every writing? The difference between begotten of and to? The Father, Jesus' father is the father of this creation, so in a way he is a father to all on this earth, for the duration of this creation period. Longer for those who retain their first estate. Read D&C 88, it clarifies issues with 76 about those who fail to keep their first estate. The concept that failing a first estate results in perdition is made up by 20th century LDS leaders, it is simply not in the scriptures or even non-canonized JS teachings. Read 88:32, they simply return to whence they came from!

This creation is about Jesus leading a campaign to bring intelligences to the father(s) to become literal offspring of the gods (fathers), led by The Father, and executed by The Son. I'd suggest more deep scripture reading and a bit less reliance on RMN, McConkie, and JFS, etc. I don't buy Adam-God Theory as stated by BY, but even he is closer to understanding and teaching truth than those LDS leaders that never new JS. Not that the teachings today and after Joseph are wrong, they are just confusing and more telestial and terrestrial than Joseph taught in the last 2-3 years of his ministry.
Duke,
Thank you for taking the time to put all that together. Your intent is noble. I deeply understand where you are coming from because I used to be a believer as you are of these things. I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone (except for intentional deceivers which I do not think I have encountered on the forum except for POSSIBLY one).

I have come to believe deeply with impressions from the Spirit that the church of Christ went back into the wilderness after 5 April 1830. I believe that when the original revelation was received as in the Book of Commandment chapter 2 that JS had one gift, and one gift only (to translate the Book of Mormon) - and that he was to pretend to no other gift- it was the unchangeable God speaking. We know from church history revelations were exponentially multiplied afterwards, and I feel the fruits of that course will bear out eventually.

Again, thank you.
Last edited by CaptainM on June 7th, 2023, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atrasado
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Posts: 1768

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Atrasado »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:36 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:19 pm
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Abinadi was teaching truth. but reread verse 1. "god shall come down". Of course a god, the god, one god, a resurrected being of celestial glory already in the highest level of celestial realm will "condescend" to come down and be "the son". To suffer as a man, to give up (temporarily) his glory, to atone for all mankind. SO, it doesn't say "the Father" or "Elohim" or any such thing. It simply says "god". I'm not saying just any god BTW, I'm saying he is the firstborn of the Father.

Read D&C 93 as well and all other books and chapters about Jesus' condescension. You need to dig deeper into what the scriptures teach.

Jesus is the son because he came here to do the Father's will; as it says in Abraham 3 to give the Father the honor. The honor is to bring to the Father enlarged spirits to become the Father's children. Those who accept Jesus become his children who Jesus will offer (when they are made pure) to the Father. To really see this read what Lucifer wanted in the Father's honor, his children. to take impure spirits/intelligences (pick your pre-spirit children nomenclature) and progress them to become literal offspring of god, is the task of the Son! I.e. to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jesus is the father because those who accept him, he becomes their father or savior for eternity. Jesus is not his own father. Neither will he be his own Son down the road, according to JS in KFD. Jesus becomes the father in the next eternal round, he earned this position/title/right, etc...

No where in the BoM or Bible does it say Jesus is his own father, i.e. trinity. I suggest a very deep study of what happened in the pre-mortal council. I started a couple threads on it about the third part and Lucifer wanting the father's honor. If you can comprehend what was at stake in this planning session, then you will see who Jesus really is, was, and will become (tenses around the time of the atonement BTW).

Also, I guess this would be a red herring for some here, but there are many fathers in the celestial realm. There are children on this earth from many different fathers (and mothers). The Father is Jesus father for sure, he is "begotten of him", we are not (necessarily but some perhaps) as we are "begotten to him". Is this not so very clear in every writing? The difference between begotten of and to? The Father, Jesus' father is the father of this creation, so in a way he is a father to all on this earth, for the duration of this creation period. Longer for those who retain their first estate. Read D&C 88, it clarifies issues with 76 about those who fail to keep their first estate. The concept that failing a first estate results in perdition is made up by 20th century LDS leaders, it is simply not in the scriptures or even non-canonized JS teachings. Read 88:32, they simply return to whence they came from!

This creation is about Jesus leading a campaign to bring intelligences to the father(s) to become literal offspring of the gods (fathers), led by The Father, and executed by The Son. I'd suggest more deep scripture reading and a bit less reliance on RMN, McConkie, and JFS, etc. I don't buy Adam-God Theory as stated by BY, but even he is closer to understanding and teaching truth than those LDS leaders that never new JS. Not that the teachings today and after Joseph are wrong, they are just confusing and more telestial and terrestrial than Joseph taught in the last 2-3 years of his ministry.
Duke,
Thank you for taking the time to put all that together. You're intent is noble. I deeply understand where you are coming from because I used to be a believer as you are of these things. I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone (except for intentional deceivers which I do not think I have encountered on the forum except for POSSIBLY one).

I have come to believe deeply with impressions from the Spirit that the church of Christ went back into the wilderness after 5 April 1830. I believe that when the original revelation was received as in the Book of Commandment chapter 2 that JS had one gift, and one gift only (to translate the Book of Mormon) - and that he was to pretend to no other gift- it was the unchangeable God speaking. We know from church history revelations were exponentially multiplied afterwards, and I feel the fruits of that course will bear out eventually.

Again, thank you.
The scripture in D&C 5 says,
4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.
Well, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and it was published as directed. After having done so, God said He might grant Joseph more gifts.

Also, there were MANY accounts of Joseph performing miracles. How do you account for that?

The Church obviously went into the wilderness in 1844, and miracles continued, but at a much slower pace. Now they are non-existent, as near as I can tell. So I think that the apostasy was gradual in nature. I believe that (I know this will sound crazy to some) Moroni dropping his trumpet was a sign from God that the Church had lost all of God's approval. I guess one day we'll find out for sure what really happened.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Atrasado wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:36 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:19 pm

Abinadi was teaching truth. but reread verse 1. "god shall come down". Of course a god, the god, one god, a resurrected being of celestial glory already in the highest level of celestial realm will "condescend" to come down and be "the son". To suffer as a man, to give up (temporarily) his glory, to atone for all mankind. SO, it doesn't say "the Father" or "Elohim" or any such thing. It simply says "god". I'm not saying just any god BTW, I'm saying he is the firstborn of the Father.

Read D&C 93 as well and all other books and chapters about Jesus' condescension. You need to dig deeper into what the scriptures teach.

Jesus is the son because he came here to do the Father's will; as it says in Abraham 3 to give the Father the honor. The honor is to bring to the Father enlarged spirits to become the Father's children. Those who accept Jesus become his children who Jesus will offer (when they are made pure) to the Father. To really see this read what Lucifer wanted in the Father's honor, his children. to take impure spirits/intelligences (pick your pre-spirit children nomenclature) and progress them to become literal offspring of god, is the task of the Son! I.e. to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jesus is the father because those who accept him, he becomes their father or savior for eternity. Jesus is not his own father. Neither will he be his own Son down the road, according to JS in KFD. Jesus becomes the father in the next eternal round, he earned this position/title/right, etc...

No where in the BoM or Bible does it say Jesus is his own father, i.e. trinity. I suggest a very deep study of what happened in the pre-mortal council. I started a couple threads on it about the third part and Lucifer wanting the father's honor. If you can comprehend what was at stake in this planning session, then you will see who Jesus really is, was, and will become (tenses around the time of the atonement BTW).

Also, I guess this would be a red herring for some here, but there are many fathers in the celestial realm. There are children on this earth from many different fathers (and mothers). The Father is Jesus father for sure, he is "begotten of him", we are not (necessarily but some perhaps) as we are "begotten to him". Is this not so very clear in every writing? The difference between begotten of and to? The Father, Jesus' father is the father of this creation, so in a way he is a father to all on this earth, for the duration of this creation period. Longer for those who retain their first estate. Read D&C 88, it clarifies issues with 76 about those who fail to keep their first estate. The concept that failing a first estate results in perdition is made up by 20th century LDS leaders, it is simply not in the scriptures or even non-canonized JS teachings. Read 88:32, they simply return to whence they came from!

This creation is about Jesus leading a campaign to bring intelligences to the father(s) to become literal offspring of the gods (fathers), led by The Father, and executed by The Son. I'd suggest more deep scripture reading and a bit less reliance on RMN, McConkie, and JFS, etc. I don't buy Adam-God Theory as stated by BY, but even he is closer to understanding and teaching truth than those LDS leaders that never new JS. Not that the teachings today and after Joseph are wrong, they are just confusing and more telestial and terrestrial than Joseph taught in the last 2-3 years of his ministry.
Duke,
Thank you for taking the time to put all that together. You're intent is noble. I deeply understand where you are coming from because I used to be a believer as you are of these things. I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone (except for intentional deceivers which I do not think I have encountered on the forum except for POSSIBLY one).

I have come to believe deeply with impressions from the Spirit that the church of Christ went back into the wilderness after 5 April 1830. I believe that when the original revelation was received as in the Book of Commandment chapter 2 that JS had one gift, and one gift only (to translate the Book of Mormon) - and that he was to pretend to no other gift- it was the unchangeable God speaking. We know from church history revelations were exponentially multiplied afterwards, and I feel the fruits of that course will bear out eventually.

Again, thank you.
The scripture in D&C 5 says,
4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.
Well, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and it was published as directed. After having done so, God said He might grant Joseph more gifts.

Also, there were MANY accounts of Joseph performing miracles. How do you account for that?

The Church obviously went into the wilderness in 1844, and miracles continued, but at a much slower pace. Now they are non-existent, as near as I can tell. So I think that the apostasy was gradual in nature. I believe that (I know this will sound crazy to some) Moroni dropping his trumpet was a sign from God that the Church had lost all of God's approval. I guess one day we'll find out for sure what really happened.
Again, I used to be unsurpassed in defending the LDS church, etc., and believing as you have shared. I would just like to point out the huge changes that occurred between the Book of Commandment chapter 2 and Doctrine and Covenants section 5. Not only were there things added, but whole paragraphs were taken out. I guess it comes down to did JS have power to change the word of God.

Otherwise, I very much agree with you about the current state of ALL restoration churches.

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

Atrasado wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm
The Church obviously went into the wilderness in 1844, and miracles continued, but at a much slower pace. Now they are non-existent, as near as I can tell. So I think that the apostasy was gradual in nature. I believe that (I know this will sound crazy to some) Moroni dropping his trumpet was a sign from God that the Church had lost all of God's approval. I guess one day we'll find out for sure what really happened.
Because of the parable of the talents, I believe that John Taylor was the last servant and he buried his Talent.

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TheDuke
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 1:09 pm
Again, I used to be unsurpassed in defending the LDS church, etc., and believing as you have shared. I would just like to point out the huge changes that occurred between the Book of Commandment chapter 2 and Doctrine and Covenants section 5. Not only were there things added, but whole paragraphs were taken out. I guess it comes down to did JS have power to change the word of God.

Otherwise, I very much agree with you about the current state of ALL restoration churches.
So, I'm not defending the church. Not my job. God didn't tell me (any of them that I've spoken to that is) to defend the church. I'm just saying what the spirit of the Lord, the HG, my father, my Lord and even my eternal mother have told me. You can use your logic as you wish, we all have that agency, that is why we are here. but, there is more than logic and feelings there is revelation. I know what the BoC says. Read it myself many times. SO. Nephi was only to help his dad, but look what he came up with. Seems god calls people for a simple purpose then uses them for more.

BTW Joseph's main calling wasn't to translate the BoM, that is a side affair, one from his youth. Important but no more significant than Moses revealing the 10 commandments. Moses was to start a new dispensation, set the Israelites free, teach the law, etc.... Same as Joseph. Joseph's main task was to obtain and share the gospel of exaltation and eternal life in this the last dispensation or the dispensation of the fullness of times.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

TheDuke wrote: June 7th, 2023, 2:01 pm
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 1:09 pm
Again, I used to be unsurpassed in defending the LDS church, etc., and believing as you have shared. I would just like to point out the huge changes that occurred between the Book of Commandment chapter 2 and Doctrine and Covenants section 5. Not only were there things added, but whole paragraphs were taken out. I guess it comes down to did JS have power to change the word of God.

Otherwise, I very much agree with you about the current state of ALL restoration churches.
So, I'm not defending the church. Not my job. God didn't tell me (any of them that I've spoken to that is) to defend the church. I'm just saying what the spirit of the Lord, the HG, my father, my Lord and even my eternal mother have told me. You can use your logic as you wish, we all have that agency, that is why we are here. but, there is more than logic and feelings there is revelation. I know what the BoC says. Read it myself many times. SO. Nephi was only to help his dad, but look what he came up with. Seems god calls people for a simple purpose then uses them for more.

BTW Joseph's main calling wasn't to translate the BoM, that is a side affair, one from his youth. Important but no more significant than Moses revealing the 10 commandments. Moses was to start a new dispensation, set the Israelites free, teach the law, etc.... Same as Joseph. Joseph's main task was to obtain and share the gospel of exaltation and eternal life in this the last dispensation or the dispensation of the fullness of times.
Thanks!

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 11:37 am All of the BOM pushes for Monotheism, just about every religion around the children of Abraham practice polytheism.
So, you don't believe the book that is translated the most correctly. You default to a book with translations errors and the precepts of men?

Amazing!

Why don't you simply believe the BoM when it tells you repetitively that Christ is the very Eternal Father?

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Shawn Henry »

Atrasado wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm The scripture in D&C 5 says,
4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.
Well, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and it was published as directed. After having done so, God said He might grant Joseph more gifts.
No, the Lord didn't say that. Here is what he said in the original Book of Commandments Chapter 4.

2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him: -- I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.

God said he will grant him no other gift.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheDuke wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:19 pm Jesus is the father because those who accept him, he becomes their father or savior for eternity.
That's not what the BoM says. It says he is the Father because of himself and the son because of the flesh.

Believe the BoM. It says all throughout the he is both father and son and it says twice that he is the very Eternal Father. How much more plain can language be.

Go back and read the scriptures BeingThere posted.

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: June 7th, 2023, 3:09 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 11:37 am All of the BOM pushes for Monotheism, just about every religion around the children of Abraham practice polytheism.
So, you don't believe the book that is translated the most correctly. You default to a book with translations errors and the precepts of men?

Amazing!

Why don't you simply believe the BoM when it tells you repetitively that Christ is the very Eternal Father?
I believe he is, so is the father and so is Elohim. That is what my original post implies…..

Sorry you don’t believe in the Bible.

I believe in all three books, without them and the Holy Ghost, we walk blind in our imaginations…. (Hint at Jeremiah 23)

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: June 7th, 2023, 3:15 pm
Atrasado wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm The scripture in D&C 5 says,
4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.
Well, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and it was published as directed. After having done so, God said He might grant Joseph more gifts.
No, the Lord didn't say that. Here is what he said in the original Book of Commandments Chapter 4.

2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him: -- I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.

God said he will grant him no other gift.
I’m just curious now, you believe he will be reincarnated, what is the point of that? He is useless, since he achieved the one gift….

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Shawn Henry
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 3:24 pm Sorry you don’t believe in the Bible.
You're not functioning on all cylinders today, are you.

Of course, I believe the Bible, as far as it is translated correctly, just like all of us should. The BoM is clear that many plain and precious things were removed.

So, my question still stands: Why do you not believe the book that has the best translation?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 3:26 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: June 7th, 2023, 3:15 pm
Atrasado wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm The scripture in D&C 5 says,

Well, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and it was published as directed. After having done so, God said He might grant Joseph more gifts.
No, the Lord didn't say that. Here is what he said in the original Book of Commandments Chapter 4.

2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him: -- I the Lord am God, and I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.

God said he will grant him no other gift.
I’m just curious now, you believe he will be reincarnated, what is the point of that? He is useless, since he achieved the one gift….
You can interpret "I will grant him no other gift" however you want to. I'm not telling you how to interpret it, I'm simply saying we should believe it.

Obviously, bringing forth a volume of scripture is a gift, which help explains why he was never able to get the PoGP or the New Translation through the canonization process. He died as a witness to the BoM and no other book of scripture.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 10:40 am
Remember Abinadi was amongst the heathens, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one as in monotheism. One will one way.
No, King Noah was raised by Zeniff. Abinadi was amongst people who knew better, knew the commandments and still chose to follow after the desires of their own hearts.

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