The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

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Bronco73idi
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The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?

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BigT
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by BigT »

I say it’s balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

And it’s why there are no miracles done today:

Mormon 9

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

Bronco73idi
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

BigT wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 2:01 pm I say it’s balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

And it’s why there are no miracles done today:

Mormon 9

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
So Jospeh was a false prophet?

I know god is in my life.

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TheDuke
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?

Bronco73idi
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?
I believe Adam = our father in heaven.

How can one take the Bible seriously if they don’t?

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.

Did anyone else get all dominion over the whole earth from Elohim? Genesis 1:26-28

Before the flood men of old, men of renown were 120 years old Genesis 6:3-4. Adam (940 years) and the sons of Adam were way older, until Moses, he only lived to 120 years.

The Lord told the Sadducees in Mark 12, have ye not read?

Again, how does one justify the written word stating Adam lived 940 years?

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ransomme
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by ransomme »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
The Eloheim here are clearly the grand council.

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ransomme
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by ransomme »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:42 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?
I believe Adam = our father in heaven.

How can one take the Bible seriously if they don’t?

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.

Did anyone else get all dominion over the whole earth from Elohim? Genesis 1:26-28

Before the flood men of old, men of renown were 120 years old Genesis 6:3-4. Adam (940 years) and the sons of Adam were way older, until Moses, he only lived to 120 years.

The Lord told the Sadducees in Mark 12, have ye not read?

Again, how does one justify the written word stating Adam lived 940 years?
There is no pattern in the Gospel where the Father falls and requires to be saved by His Son.

AGT means that God the Father brought death, and His Son life.

It's like a children's movie where the kids are always smarter and more capable than the adults.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Ymarsakar »

Why dont we just resurrect smith and get everyone together with god and get the answer directly

This isbwhere atheists have a point. A lot if times the belief in a god is not taken seriously by atheists simply because what the faithful do in action is no different to an atheist westerner thst obeys the law and us constitution. One has torah. Another has the law.

If big t wants a miracle he can manifest a miracle if his faith and worthiness are strong. However if u r trying to worship a church as ur god thej ur faith will not make many miracles. Reality is a good feedback indicator. If ur life improves then maybe it is good this new religion u r doing.

Bronco73idi
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 3:02 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:42 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm

the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate. The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer. Joseph says this many times in his work. The Church of the Firstborn is an eternal organization or religion of many souls not the Son. This is way out off base. And Eloheim is the Father not the Holy Ghost. Never has it referred to the HG in any scripture let alone one written by JS.

In general I'm not sure if this scripture is very accurate. Joseph is saying to those present that he is reinitiating the same society as Adam had anciently. I know that is an LDS statement or LDS truth, but I don't see much the same between Adam's day and 1840's. Perhaps principles but we have little to know evidence of any organization in Adam's time. I guess a statement he sacrificed w/o knowing why and was baptized by a spirit and wrote a book of remembrance? He even references his Masonry ties here?
I believe Adam = our father in heaven.

How can one take the Bible seriously if they don’t?

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.

Did anyone else get all dominion over the whole earth from Elohim? Genesis 1:26-28

Before the flood men of old, men of renown were 120 years old Genesis 6:3-4. Adam (940 years) and the sons of Adam were way older, until Moses, he only lived to 120 years.

The Lord told the Sadducees in Mark 12, have ye not read?

Again, how does one justify the written word stating Adam lived 940 years?
There is no pattern in the Gospel where the Father falls and requires to be saved by His Son.

AGT means that God the Father brought death, and His Son life.

It's like a children's movie where the kids are always smarter and more capable than the adults.
I like your analogy lol

How does one reconcile the life span of Adam and his sons?

You say “There is no pattern in the Gospel where the Father falls and requires to be saved by His Son.”

Let’s say The gospel of Thomas is true, 18 when you figure out the beginning you will know the end.

It’s reminds me about the kingdoms of glory discussion a LDS member might have with a baptist. The LDS might say, where in the Bible does it say only heaven or hell?

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I think the Lord is more than just a kid playing a Kid Movie. He is from the linage of David, Son of David.

Mark 12
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

They are one will and one way, take one part away and the plan fails.

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Luke
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Luke »

TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 11:16 pm The ancient of days is Adam not the father (unless you are an Adam-God believer.
At this point it’s impossible to deny that the Adam-God Doctrine came from Joseph, unless you’re historically illiterate.

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TheDuke
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:53 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
The Eloheim here are clearly the grand council.
I don't see that at all. Joseph references "council" twice in this document and both times it is his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842. He is simply trying to explain the growth/evolution of the PH from Aaronic to Melchizedek and map it back to Adam. Read the entire context, it makes a different story than this small snippet, which is taken out of context of the entire purpose Joseph had on that day to meet with those few people.

Bronco73idi
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 11:44 am
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:53 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
The Eloheim here are clearly the grand council.
I don't see that at all. Joseph references "council" twice in this document and both times it is his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842. He is simply trying to explain the growth/evolution of the PH from Aaronic to Melchizedek and map it back to Adam. Read the entire context, it makes a different story than this small snippet, which is taken out of context of the entire purpose Joseph had on that day to meet with those few people.
Let’s break the concerns down, shall we….

TheDuke:
“his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842”

(I did not know the upper part of the store in Nauvoo was a Masonic Lodge?)

JS papers:
“Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the Store (I.E.) in my private office (so called, because in that room I kept my sacred writings, translated ancient records, and received revelations) and in my general business office or Lodge Room (I.E. where the Masonic fraternity met occasionally for want of a better place)”

TheDuke:
“Joseph references "council" twice in this document”

(The word was used three times in this document. He could have used “group A” instead of the word “council” and gotten the same results. The first time, it was used to show who was part of the group called “council” then it was used to say I told the council or members or group XYZ)

JS papers:
“in Council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller,—— —— and Presidents [HC 5:1] Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

(Here is where he uses the word “council” to describe all the people he noted as part of the council.)

“In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days. And the communications I made to this Council were of things Spiritual, and to be received only by the Spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men, but what will be made known to all <​the​> Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints; [p. 1328]”


I have not changed a single word from the “document” I’m trying to figure out your point of view. You are implying I’m twisting the meaning, or as the Lord told the Sadducees, “ye therefore do greatly err.”

TheDuke:
“the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate.”

This comment implies that I greatly err and need to repent.

TheDuke:
“He even references his Masonry ties here?“

JS mentioning Masonic dealings in this entry is only a description of what business he does in the upper room of the store. I don’t see anything about masonry to what he disclosed to the council that was present that day.


Maybe you are reading something different? If so please enlighten me so I can repent, change.

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Being There
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Being There »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
Personally, I don't trust anything that Joseph Smith has ever said,
but It doesn't mean though that I do not believe in some some things.
but anything from him, (that's not just scripture - from his translating) is highly suspect.
But even the D&C.
Just take a look.

Can we even trust the D&C ?

Post by Being There » April 1st, 2023, 8:05 am
viewtopic.php?p=1372237&hilit=trust#p1372237

I know the D&C has some incredible things in it,
but there's been so may changes.
I mean how do we know which parts we can trust and accept as revelation
and which parts we can't.


Like I commented to someone else -

"I guess the real question is, is it really all revelation.
I for one do not believe it was all from direct revelation.
And if it is, some things have been added and taken out -
been changed and modified, according to the desires of those men who did it.
Over the years church authorities have made hundreds of changes to our scriptures -
and to many other things - just look at all the changes made over the years
with things to do with the temple and the endowment alone.

Some things in the D&C contradicts many other scriptures we have in the Bible and Book of Mormon.
Just look at the controversy over section 132 alone - over polygamy.

Many scholars of the D&C have stated there are sections that are questionable as to whether or not
they were actual revelation from the Lord, or from man.


quote

III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words

Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).

Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.

Some things we read are not God’s words.


An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and Covenants
that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20.
Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few verses, believing that they were the words of Christ,
or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him.
He believed they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date.
With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ,
stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday.
In the Joseph Smith Paper’s project,
we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the Lord,
nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Instead, they are added words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time,
used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).


God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.

We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project,

that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.

More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.

Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.

Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”

In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”

We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.

The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.

Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.

Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”

Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.

Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception."

end quote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE

Changes in the Doctrine and Covenants

The "Doctrine and Covenants" is the 3rd of the Mormon "standard works", or scriptures. It claims to be the publication of about 140 different revelations that have been given in modern times to Mormon leaders, mostly to Joseph Smith. Each section in the modern D&C carries a short heading indicating the date, place, and basic circumstances surrounding each modern-day revelation.

Originally, some of the revelations were published in some very early Mormon periodicals, but then in 1833 most of the revelations received up to that point were published in a book called the "Book of Commandments". "Doctrine and Covenants" was first published in 1835, and included most of the revelations received up to that point. But there was a major problem, which continues to haunt the Mormons today. Many of the "revelations" included in both books (the 1833 BofC and the 1835 and subsequent D&C) have been altered, with the most significant changes being made in the revelations that are most important to Mormon practrices.

In my last posting I quoted several times from a prominent Mormon, and in this posting I will do the same for the same basic reason. David Whitmer was one of the "three witnesses" to the original Book of Mormon plates, and although he never denied this witness, he and several other prominent Mormons left the LDS Church in 1838 for a very important reason.
They firmly believed that Joseph Smith and the other leaders became corrupted; that they were used by God to bring out the Book of Mormon but then became high-minded and apostate themselves. Accordingly, Whitmer wrote a booklet in 1887, at the end of his life, which is one of the most heartfelt appeals I have ever read. If you don't do anything else with a Mormon, get a copy of Whitmer's booklet and have them read it. It is absolutely devastating, and you can get it at www.utlm.org for only $3. Or, write to me privately and I will send you a 24 page Word document that I have typed up which gives excerpts from his booklet. Some quotes from Whitmer:

-- "Some of the revelations as they are now in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants have been changed and added to. Some of the changes being of the greatest importance as the meaning is entirely changed on some very important matters; as if the Lord had changed his mind a few years after he gave the revelations, and after having commanded his servants (as they claim) to print them in the "Book of Commandments;" and after giving his servants a revelation, being a preface unto His Book of Commandments, which says: "Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the Book of my Commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, oh inhabitants of the earth." Also in this preface, "Behold, I am God, and have spoken it; these commandments are of me." "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful." The revelations were printed in the Book of Commandments correctly. This I know, and will prove it to you. And when the Book of Commandments was printed, Joseph and the church received it as being printed correctly. This I know. In the winter of 1834 they saw that some of the revelations in the Book of Commandments had to be changed, because the heads of the church had gone too far, and had done things in which they had already gone ahead of some of the former revelations. So the book of "Doctrine and Covenants" was printed in 1835, and some of the revelations changed and added to. God does not change and work in this manner. The way this revelation has been changed, twenty-two words being added to it, it would appear that God had broken His word after giving His word in plainness; commanding Brother Joseph to pretend to no other gift but to translate the Book of Mormon, and then the Lord had changed and concluded to grant Joseph the gift of a Seer to the Church."

-- "I want to tell the brethren, that when the Book of Doctrine and Covenants was published, and presesented to the church assembly in Kirtland, Ohio, in August, 1835, as recorded in the old church papers, a very few of the brethren then knew about most of the important changes that had been put in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. In time it was generally found out, and the result was that some of the members left the church on account of it. A few members dissented from the church as early as 1832, on account of the spiritual blindness of some of the leaders. When it became generally known that these important changes had been made in the Doctrine and Covenants, many of the brethren objected seriously to it, but they did not want to say much for the sake of peace, as it was Brother Joseph and the leaders who did it. The majority of the members--poor weak souls--thought that anything Brother Joseph would do, must be all right; so in their blindness of heart, trusting in an arm of flesh, they looked over it and were led into error, and finally all talk about it ceased. I was told that Sidney Rigdon was the cause of those changes being made: by smooth talk he convinced Brother Joseph and that committee that it was all right."

-- "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions. About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families. All of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; Peter and Christian Whitmer were dead. Oliver Cowdery came out also. Martin Harris was then in Ohio. Many of the Reorganized Church have wondered why I have stood apart from them. Brethren, I will here tell you why. God commanded me by his own voice to stand apart from you. Many of you think that I have a desire to lead--to lead a church that believe as I do. I have no such desire. A one-man leader to the church is not the teachings of Christ. After Brother Joseph was killed, many came to me and importuned me to come out and be their leader; but I refused."

This is the heartfelt appeal of a man who was duped in the first few years, but when he got on the inside and saw what was going on, he took all the fraud after that and believed that it was just starting! I feel for David Whitmer as much as he felt for members of the LDS.

But the point of this posting is that Mormons today have no idea that many of the D&C sections were originally printed with some very significant and serious differences. They think that the D&C sections today are printed just as Christ spoke them. What kinds of changes?

Originally, it was supposedly revealed to Smith that his "only gift" would be to translate the Book of Mormon. But later that section was changed to read as if that was only his "first gift". (BTW, I am not giving the section numbers here because they are different in different editions of the D&C.) One of the other changes concerns Mormon "high priests", and even the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, which are some of the most fundamental parts of the overall Mormon claim. They aren't mentioned in the original versions of the revelations that contain them today.

Giving Whitmer's "An Address to all Believers in Christ" doesn't solve everything, because he still adamantly believed in the Book of Mormon and in the original versions of revelations supposedly received prior to 1830. But his pamphlet is devastating to most of Mormonism, and understanding why actually undermines the rest f what Whitmer did believe about Mormonism, even though he didn't realize it.

end quote

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6555
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:22 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 11:44 am
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:53 am

The Eloheim here are clearly the grand council.
I don't see that at all. Joseph references "council" twice in this document and both times it is his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842. He is simply trying to explain the growth/evolution of the PH from Aaronic to Melchizedek and map it back to Adam. Read the entire context, it makes a different story than this small snippet, which is taken out of context of the entire purpose Joseph had on that day to meet with those few people.
Let’s break the concerns down, shall we….

TheDuke:
“his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842”

(I did not know the upper part of the store in Nauvoo was a Masonic Lodge?)

JS papers:
“Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the Store (I.E.) in my private office (so called, because in that room I kept my sacred writings, translated ancient records, and received revelations) and in my general business office or Lodge Room (I.E. where the Masonic fraternity met occasionally for want of a better place)”

TheDuke:
“Joseph references "council" twice in this document”

(The word was used three times in this document. He could have used “group A” instead of the word “council” and gotten the same results. The first time, it was used to show who was part of the group called “council” then it was used to say I told the council or members or group XYZ)

JS papers:
“in Council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller,—— —— and Presidents [HC 5:1] Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

(Here is where he uses the word “council” to describe all the people he noted as part of the council.)

“In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days. And the communications I made to this Council were of things Spiritual, and to be received only by the Spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men, but what will be made known to all <​the​> Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints; [p. 1328]”


I have not changed a single word from the “document” I’m trying to figure out your point of view. You are implying I’m twisting the meaning, or as the Lord told the Sadducees, “ye therefore do greatly err.”

TheDuke:
“the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate.”

This comment implies that I greatly err and need to repent.

TheDuke:
“He even references his Masonry ties here?“

JS mentioning Masonic dealings in this entry is only a description of what business he does in the upper room of the store. I don’t see anything about masonry to what he disclosed to the council that was present that day.


Maybe you are reading something different? If so please enlighten me so I can repent, change.
I didn't say you needed to repent or anything like that. You can add you words to any scripture, that is your right. However, I pointed out the errors. The council remark was for Ransomme who said Eloheim was the pre-mortal council when it says council" it means his group as you said.

It does say he started in the upper room then moved to the "lodge" with the general... and others. The lodge is the Masonic lodge. The upper room is like 10x14 and not suitable for more than half a dozen at at time, with one tiny little window and the tiny 4x6 office at top of the stairs. Hence he went to the lodge when the folks showed up. Read it, you even quoted it above. He certainly didn't do washings in the upper room, so he had to move around.

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Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3135

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Being There »

I tend to believe more in The Book of Mormon - (than I do in anything that JS says)
and what it says about - The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost being ONE GOD - even Jesus Christ.

to repeat - what I've said before

unless English has become useless,
and if all you had were these scriptures -

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand
that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son,
because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.


The Book of Ether
Chapter 4

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ;
for I am he who speaketh.


11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me.
I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.
For behold, I am the Father,
I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

The Book of Ether
Chapter 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.
Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3845

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:28 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:22 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 11:44 am
I don't see that at all. Joseph references "council" twice in this document and both times it is his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842. He is simply trying to explain the growth/evolution of the PH from Aaronic to Melchizedek and map it back to Adam. Read the entire context, it makes a different story than this small snippet, which is taken out of context of the entire purpose Joseph had on that day to meet with those few people.
Let’s break the concerns down, shall we….

TheDuke:
“his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842”

(I did not know the upper part of the store in Nauvoo was a Masonic Lodge?)

JS papers:
“Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the Store (I.E.) in my private office (so called, because in that room I kept my sacred writings, translated ancient records, and received revelations) and in my general business office or Lodge Room (I.E. where the Masonic fraternity met occasionally for want of a better place)”

TheDuke:
“Joseph references "council" twice in this document”

(The word was used three times in this document. He could have used “group A” instead of the word “council” and gotten the same results. The first time, it was used to show who was part of the group called “council” then it was used to say I told the council or members or group XYZ)

JS papers:
“in Council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller,—— —— and Presidents [HC 5:1] Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

(Here is where he uses the word “council” to describe all the people he noted as part of the council.)

“In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days. And the communications I made to this Council were of things Spiritual, and to be received only by the Spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men, but what will be made known to all <​the​> Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints; [p. 1328]”


I have not changed a single word from the “document” I’m trying to figure out your point of view. You are implying I’m twisting the meaning, or as the Lord told the Sadducees, “ye therefore do greatly err.”

TheDuke:
“the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate.”

This comment implies that I greatly err and need to repent.

TheDuke:
“He even references his Masonry ties here?“

JS mentioning Masonic dealings in this entry is only a description of what business he does in the upper room of the store. I don’t see anything about masonry to what he disclosed to the council that was present that day.


Maybe you are reading something different? If so please enlighten me so I can repent, change.
I didn't say you needed to repent or anything like that. You can add you words to any scripture, that is your right. However, I pointed out the errors. The council remark was for Ransomme who said Eloheim was the pre-mortal council when it says council" it means his group as you said.

It does say he started in the upper room then moved to the "lodge" with the general... and others. The lodge is the Masonic lodge. The upper room is like 10x14 and not suitable for more than half a dozen at at time, with one tiny little window and the tiny 4x6 office at top of the stairs. Hence he went to the lodge when the folks showed up. Read it, you even quoted it above. He certainly didn't do washings in the upper room, so he had to move around.
I read the first paragraph about the private office above the store out loud to my wife. She was like “why” and then rolled her eyes lol

I don’t see it as him saying he was in his private office and then move to the Masonic lodge.

I love the fact that it sounds like you have been in that room personally, that is awesome to me.

There are 8 names in this entry with two blank lines.

Oh well.

I still believe in Adam is our Father in heaven and Elohim made him in his image. Ie he wasn’t born of woman.

The Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father.“

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3845

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

Being There wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:41 pm I tend to believe more in The Book of Mormon - (than I do in anything that JS says)
and what it says about - The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost being ONE GOD - even Jesus Christ.

to repeat - what I've said before

unless English has become useless,
and if all you had were these scriptures -

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand
that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son,
because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.


The Book of Ether
Chapter 4

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ;
for I am he who speaketh.


11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me.
I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.
For behold, I am the Father,
I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

The Book of Ether
Chapter 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.
Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
The beginning is the end, YHWH taught Adam.

YHWH was born of woman, Adam was not born of woman. Is being born of woman mean anything? Yes, Luke 7:28

Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

If you only take the information on this subject from the BOM then the Trinity sounds true.

Good thing we have John 8
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Reading the whole chapter of John 8, I don’t see how anyone can believe in the Trinity.

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Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8357
Location: Zion

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Fred »

BigT wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 2:01 pm I say it’s balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

And it’s why there are no miracles done today:

Mormon 9

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
There are miracles being performed today. Just not by the Q15.

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TheDuke
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Posts: 6555
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by TheDuke »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 8:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:28 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 1:22 pm

Let’s break the concerns down, shall we….

TheDuke:
“his small group of HP meeting in the Masonic Lodge this day in 1842”

(I did not know the upper part of the store in Nauvoo was a Masonic Lodge?)

JS papers:
“Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the Store (I.E.) in my private office (so called, because in that room I kept my sacred writings, translated ancient records, and received revelations) and in my general business office or Lodge Room (I.E. where the Masonic fraternity met occasionally for want of a better place)”

TheDuke:
“Joseph references "council" twice in this document”

(The word was used three times in this document. He could have used “group A” instead of the word “council” and gotten the same results. The first time, it was used to show who was part of the group called “council” then it was used to say I told the council or members or group XYZ)

JS papers:
“in Council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller,—— —— and Presidents [HC 5:1] Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

(Here is where he uses the word “council” to describe all the people he noted as part of the council.)

“In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days. And the communications I made to this Council were of things Spiritual, and to be received only by the Spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men, but what will be made known to all <​the​> Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints; [p. 1328]”


I have not changed a single word from the “document” I’m trying to figure out your point of view. You are implying I’m twisting the meaning, or as the Lord told the Sadducees, “ye therefore do greatly err.”

TheDuke:
“the () statements are not of the paper and are incorrect and inappropriate.”

This comment implies that I greatly err and need to repent.

TheDuke:
“He even references his Masonry ties here?“

JS mentioning Masonic dealings in this entry is only a description of what business he does in the upper room of the store. I don’t see anything about masonry to what he disclosed to the council that was present that day.


Maybe you are reading something different? If so please enlighten me so I can repent, change.
I didn't say you needed to repent or anything like that. You can add you words to any scripture, that is your right. However, I pointed out the errors. The council remark was for Ransomme who said Eloheim was the pre-mortal council when it says council" it means his group as you said.

It does say he started in the upper room then moved to the "lodge" with the general... and others. The lodge is the Masonic lodge. The upper room is like 10x14 and not suitable for more than half a dozen at at time, with one tiny little window and the tiny 4x6 office at top of the stairs. Hence he went to the lodge when the folks showed up. Read it, you even quoted it above. He certainly didn't do washings in the upper room, so he had to move around.
I read the first paragraph about the private office above the store out loud to my wife. She was like “why” and then rolled her eyes lol

I don’t see it as him saying he was in his private office and then move to the Masonic lodge.

I love the fact that it sounds like you have been in that room personally, that is awesome to me.

There are 8 names in this entry with two blank lines.

Oh well.

I still believe in Adam is our Father in heaven and Elohim made him in his image. Ie he wasn’t born of woman.

The Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father.“
Let's take out the parenthetical stuff from Joseph's writing (the description of the office and lodge) and see how the sentence reads. "Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the store .... and in my general business office or Lodge room"... so, I suppose it is an assumption to say where he started but the sentence structure says in office ... and in ... Lodge room. So it seems he went to office then the Lodge room.

I have been in the upper part of the store. I haven't been in the office, as it is too small to enter. It is like a normal closet with a built in fold up desk on the right side; at the top of the steep stairs; there is to the right of the top landing (maybe 3-4' by 3-4') the door to the meeting room (not the lodge) where he developed the endowment rooms.

He says he attended to some washings and anointings, there is no water up there and the room is very small to fit people in there, I guess I assumed that part took place in the lodge room, which was likely on first floor of a nearby building and much larger and could house the number of people and the tub. Also, I think any water spilled from a tub would wash down into the store below as well, the floor certainly wasn't water proof in the upper room.

I reverence Adam very much as our father, but I don't subscribe to Adam-God theory where he is also the father of Jesus. I don't believe as is taught by the LDS today (or most Christians) that my father is Jesus' father either. I see "the Father" as the head of this creation; we call him Elohim as either at title or name; I don't claim it is either his name or title in reality but it is where Joseph finally settled in his description, so it fits for me; but I don't see a direct link to the bible. I suppose in KFD Joseph uses Elohim as the Father but that was in 1843, long after he got more precise in his language.

He does keep mentioning or calling that day his meeting as a "council". I brought this up because Ransomme stated the connection with the pre-mortal council. but further reading shows, at least in this document that Joseph was calling his "meeting" a "council" that day; he says "in council with ....". I see 12 people listed in his "council" that day and he doesn't say who came for washings and annointings, so it could be them or could be two distinct groups? 12 could fit in the larger room (not the office, hell I couldn't stand and sit in it at the same time with the door closed, let alone 2 people, not with one seated anyway; perhaps in the larger room; but he said his office with the desk which has a bunch of cubby holes for papers and documents. I think Clayton used it as well.

It seems he was discussing how the keys of the two PH were passed down, interesting words "communication of the keys pertaining to ... (Aaronic to highest order of Melchizedek PH)." He goes on to talk about the times of Adam (Ancient of Days) to these the "last days". It seems clear he was describing how the PH keys were handled anciently and by him in 1840's. notice he isn't claiming a discussion of the PH but the keys and "communication of the keys" specifically.

To me this note for this day says very little of value. Just that they met in council, discussed how the PH keys were obtained and attended to some Kirkland era temple ordinances (which as I recall required a tub to bath in as the washings and annointings were literal in those days with a full scrubbing down).

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BigT
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by BigT »

Fred wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 9:16 pm
BigT wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 2:01 pm I say it’s balderdash: senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.

And it’s why there are no miracles done today:

Mormon 9

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
There are miracles being performed today. Just not by the Q15.
But wait, what was it Bednar said a couple of years ago? Something about someone was able to finally make it to the temple and it was a miracle. Kind of like people placing their sick and afflicted in such a way that Peter’s cloak might cast a shadow on them and they would be healed. Oh wait, it was nothing like that at all. I think someone answered the phone at the temple and was able to connect 2 people for rides. A miracle!

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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 9:31 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 8:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:28 pm

I didn't say you needed to repent or anything like that. You can add you words to any scripture, that is your right. However, I pointed out the errors. The council remark was for Ransomme who said Eloheim was the pre-mortal council when it says council" it means his group as you said.

It does say he started in the upper room then moved to the "lodge" with the general... and others. The lodge is the Masonic lodge. The upper room is like 10x14 and not suitable for more than half a dozen at at time, with one tiny little window and the tiny 4x6 office at top of the stairs. Hence he went to the lodge when the folks showed up. Read it, you even quoted it above. He certainly didn't do washings in the upper room, so he had to move around.
I read the first paragraph about the private office above the store out loud to my wife. She was like “why” and then rolled her eyes lol

I don’t see it as him saying he was in his private office and then move to the Masonic lodge.

I love the fact that it sounds like you have been in that room personally, that is awesome to me.

There are 8 names in this entry with two blank lines.

Oh well.

I still believe in Adam is our Father in heaven and Elohim made him in his image. Ie he wasn’t born of woman.

The Gospel of Thomas
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father.“
Let's take out the parenthetical stuff from Joseph's writing (the description of the office and lodge) and see how the sentence reads. "Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the store .... and in my general business office or Lodge room"... so, I suppose it is an assumption to say where he started but the sentence structure says in office ... and in ... Lodge room. So it seems he went to office then the Lodge room.

I have been in the upper part of the store. I haven't been in the office, as it is too small to enter. It is like a normal closet with a built in fold up desk on the right side; at the top of the steep stairs; there is to the right of the top landing (maybe 3-4' by 3-4') the door to the meeting room (not the lodge) where he developed the endowment rooms.

He says he attended to some washings and anointings, there is no water up there and the room is very small to fit people in there, I guess I assumed that part took place in the lodge room, which was likely on first floor of a nearby building and much larger and could house the number of people and the tub. Also, I think any water spilled from a tub would wash down into the store below as well, the floor certainly wasn't water proof in the upper room.

I reverence Adam very much as our father, but I don't subscribe to Adam-God theory where he is also the father of Jesus. I don't believe as is taught by the LDS today (or most Christians) that my father is Jesus' father either. I see "the Father" as the head of this creation; we call him Elohim as either at title or name; I don't claim it is either his name or title in reality but it is where Joseph finally settled in his description, so it fits for me; but I don't see a direct link to the bible. I suppose in KFD Joseph uses Elohim as the Father but that was in 1843, long after he got more precise in his language.

He does keep mentioning or calling that day his meeting as a "council". I brought this up because Ransomme stated the connection with the pre-mortal council. but further reading shows, at least in this document that Joseph was calling his "meeting" a "council" that day; he says "in council with ....". I see 12 people listed in his "council" that day and he doesn't say who came for washings and annointings, so it could be them or could be two distinct groups? 12 could fit in the larger room (not the office, hell I couldn't stand and sit in it at the same time with the door closed, let alone 2 people, not with one seated anyway; perhaps in the larger room; but he said his office with the desk which has a bunch of cubby holes for papers and documents. I think Clayton used it as well.

It seems he was discussing how the keys of the two PH were passed down, interesting words "communication of the keys pertaining to ... (Aaronic to highest order of Melchizedek PH)." He goes on to talk about the times of Adam (Ancient of Days) to these the "last days". It seems clear he was describing how the PH keys were handled anciently and by him in 1840's. notice he isn't claiming a discussion of the PH but the keys and "communication of the keys" specifically.

To me this note for this day says very little of value. Just that they met in council, discussed how the PH keys were obtained and attended to some Kirkland era temple ordinances (which as I recall required a tub to bath in as the washings and annointings were literal in those days with a full scrubbing down).
When I first heard of Adam = God, I tried to work it out that Adam was Jesus’s father. It never fit right and I don’t believe it now.

I don’t think our ideas of the godhead differ much. Adam, our father in heaven. Does that mean that he had to conceive Jesus, the son. Jesus taught Adam after he went through the veil. Jesus taught all the prophets. All three are one but separate. The Bible tells us, One was born of the spirit, Adam. One was born of the spirit and a descendent of Adam, Jesus. Luke 1:35

Jesus says John the Baptist is the greatest prophet ever born of woman. The least in his father kingdom is greater than John, Luke 7:28. It is such an out of place verse, why bring it up? I think it’s a clue and witness to Thomas 15.

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3845

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
So trinity? Got it

Weird how Jospeh was the biggest opponent against the Trinity but he translated the BOM. He must have been stupid lol

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CaptainM
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Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by CaptainM »

Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:38 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 12:34 pm Jospeh Smith papers May 4th 1842

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days(Father), and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born(Son), and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim(Holy Ghost) in the Eternal worlds.“

I think Joseph said the relationship of the three so elegantly here. The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.

They have one will and one way, they are one and the same to all who don’t know them.

What say ye?
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
So trinity? Got it

Weird how Jospeh was the biggest opponent against the Trinity but he translated the BOM. He must have been stupid lol
Actually he was stupid in seeking the approval of men and adding to God's truth. It must have been an insurmountable attraction for him to as a poor farm boy to be given so much admiration by followers of the Book of Mormon: especially all the cute girls.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3845

Re: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:44 am
Bronco73idi wrote: June 7th, 2023, 8:38 am
CaptainM wrote: June 7th, 2023, 7:25 am
I am amazed at how quickly the one true standard that God gave us to rely upon is thrown out on the ash heap of the LDS church. Read Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments to see how easily JS was led to false revelations and to extol his own knowledge. Here is the truth about the Godhead:

1)And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2)And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-

3)The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-

4)And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5)And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
So trinity? Got it

Weird how Jospeh was the biggest opponent against the Trinity but he translated the BOM. He must have been stupid lol
Actually he was stupid in seeking the approval of men and adding to God's truth. It must have been an insurmountable attraction for him to as a poor farm boy to be given so much admiration by followers of the Book of Mormon: especially all the cute girls.
So John chapter 8 is blasphemous?

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