We consider the matter closed...

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 9:56 am
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 4:16 am
silverado wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 5:54 pm so the good members of the church are not talking about the sec cease and desist order. Some members must have done mental gymnastics. Now we forget about it and move on....

Has anyone read the 90 page Memorandum of David A. Nielson to the US Senate Finance Committee and Subcommittee on Taxation and IRS Enforcement? It looks like a good explanation and argument for why EPA should owe $ billions of back taxes. It includes several photo copies of 'incorrect' tax forms signed by Roger Clarke.
I don't see David A. Nielson as an actor in good faith. I think he has ulterior motives. He is either lying through his teeth about his motives or is a utterly naive imbecile.

Who here thinks that the Gadiantons should be paid a percentage of one's increase?
Whether taxes should be paid or not, it is the law. And A of F 12, we believe in 'obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.' Is it ok to preach one thing and do another?

To me, this is less about taxes and more about honesty.
Taxes may be the law, but not all laws are valid or moral. See Daniel.

Laws are about interpretations of the law. Laws are almost never really specific, iron clad, etc. When you study law one quickly realizes that the law IS NOT about what is right out or wrong, only what is legal and illegal. Even then it depends on circumstances.

They're is more context and nuance to the 12th article faith that you are closing glossing over.

I think this may be the one where Connor explored this a little
Last edited by ransomme on June 4th, 2023, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

LDS Physician wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 10:00 am
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:36 am
LDS Physician wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 6:52 am Temple recommend question number 9:

“Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?”
The brethren don't have temple recommend interviews.

And taxes are about what's legal. After all the whole system is a dishonest one.
It's so interesting to watch people excuse the brethren from the very rules they insist those whom they lead obey. The level of mental gymnastics necessary to maintain the infallibility myth is incredible.

I mean ... do you actually believe in your heart of hearts that it's ok for them to be dishonest in their dealings while telling us that we must be honest in our dealings? Where do you draw the line? They don't have a temple recommend interview ... so can they commit adultery?

Your logic is beyond me, thank goodness.
No I think they were wrong. I just don't care about taxes to Gadiantons. They lied to people who in good faith paid tithes to God. We should be talking about lying to members and how they misuse tithes.

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The Red Pill
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

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Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 10:43 am
The Red Pill wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 7:15 pm FYI...those on the inside of the SEC, were furious with the church's official statement...because of its whitewashed version of events, lack of any accountability...and trying to blame it all on some lawyer not filing the correct paperwork.

Their pathetic statement was window dressing for the members to hide the tomfoolery...and just in case their was any curiosity in the membership...

....they added: "We considered the matter closed"

Kinda like Biden in regards to Hunters laptop...
I believe you, but where did you get that info? Because I'll bet they have a lot more info about what is really happening.

I keep having this fantasy about the entire Council on the Disposition of the Tithes getting perp walked out of 47 E S Temple St and 50 E North Temple St. Of course, that would make them martyrs in some people's eyes. But it would open a lot of eyes, too.
I don't agree with RFM on many issues, but I think this long interview is objective and peels back the onion accurately on the entire SEC fiasco. The finance guy he interviews details the SEC reaction to the church's official statement.

Long...but worth the ride. Best when following along with the 24 page report from Widows Mite.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2023/04/rad ... g-the-law/

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sec-order/

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

The Red Pill wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:07 pm
Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 10:43 am
The Red Pill wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 7:15 pm FYI...those on the inside of the SEC, were furious with the church's official statement...because of its whitewashed version of events, lack of any accountability...and trying to blame it all on some lawyer not filing the correct paperwork.

Their pathetic statement was window dressing for the members to hide the tomfoolery...and just in case their was any curiosity in the membership...

....they added: "We considered the matter closed"

Kinda like Biden in regards to Hunters laptop...
I believe you, but where did you get that info? Because I'll bet they have a lot more info about what is really happening.

I keep having this fantasy about the entire Council on the Disposition of the Tithes getting perp walked out of 47 E S Temple St and 50 E North Temple St. Of course, that would make them martyrs in some people's eyes. But it would open a lot of eyes, too.
I don't agree with RFM on many issues, but I think this long interview is objective and peels back the onion accurately on the entire SEC fiasco. The finance guy he interviews details the SEC reaction to the church's official statement.

Long...but worth the ride. Best when following along with the 24 page report from Widows Mite.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2023/04/rad ... g-the-law/

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sec-order/
RFM? They are IMO very sanctimonious, disingenuine and hypocritical.

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The Red Pill
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by The Red Pill »

ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 4:16 pm
The Red Pill wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:07 pm
Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 10:43 am
I believe you, but where did you get that info? Because I'll bet they have a lot more info about what is really happening.

I keep having this fantasy about the entire Council on the Disposition of the Tithes getting perp walked out of 47 E S Temple St and 50 E North Temple St. Of course, that would make them martyrs in some people's eyes. But it would open a lot of eyes, too.
I don't agree with RFM on many issues, but I think this long interview is objective and peels back the onion accurately on the entire SEC fiasco. The finance guy he interviews details the SEC reaction to the church's official statement.

Long...but worth the ride. Best when following along with the 24 page report from Widows Mite.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2023/04/rad ... g-the-law/

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sec-order/
RFM? They are IMO very sanctimonious, disingenuine and hypocritical.
You take nuggets of truth where you find them. Why do you think I said...I don't agree with RFM on many issues?

I would suggest you listen first, then comment. Hard to be a movie critic on a film you haven't seen.

Good & Global
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Good & Global »

silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 11:11 am
Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 10:43 am
The Red Pill wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 7:15 pm FYI...those on the inside of the SEC, were furious with the church's official statement...because of its whitewashed version of events, lack of any accountability...and trying to blame it all on some lawyer not filing the correct paperwork.

Their pathetic statement was window dressing for the members to hide the tomfoolery...and just in case their was any curiosity in the membership...

....they added: "We considered the matter closed"

Kinda like Biden in regards to Hunters laptop...
I believe you, but where did you get that info? Because I'll bet they have a lot more info about what is really happening.

I keep having this fantasy about the entire Council on the Disposition of the Tithes getting perp walked out of 47 E S Temple St and 50 E North Temple St. Of course, that would make them martyrs in some people's eyes. But it would open a lot of eyes, too.
With all the care and details that were in the sec letter, there was no mention of lawyers advice. I heard that meant the church didn't use that defense with the sec. And why not?
Maybe because they knew how ridiculous it would look with Oaks, the corporate lawyer, Utah supreme court justice and University of Chicago law professor, who signed off as member of the First Presidency for last 5-8 years on this for them to keep doing it and others who knew darn well what they were doing.

The SEC may be many things but stupid is not one of them.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

The Red Pill wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 4:23 pm
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 4:16 pm
The Red Pill wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:07 pm

I don't agree with RFM on many issues, but I think this long interview is objective and peels back the onion accurately on the entire SEC fiasco. The finance guy he interviews details the SEC reaction to the church's official statement.

Long...but worth the ride. Best when following along with the 24 page report from Widows Mite.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2023/04/rad ... g-the-law/

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sec-order/
RFM? They are IMO very sanctimonious, disingenuine and hypocritical.
You take nuggets of truth where you find them. Why do you think I said...I don't agree with RFM on many issues?

I would suggest you listen first, then comment. Hard to be a movie critic on a film you haven't seen.
Yeah. Don't work, I wasn't judging you.......unrighteously...
😂 😂 😂

I'm prolly get around to it on Monday

Atrasado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Atrasado »

TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:35 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:19 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:07 pm WELL do we believe Joseph F Smith? He said the day would come that tithes would no longer be required as the church would have sufficient for their needs. Has that prophesied day come?

The LDS Church entered a debt crisis following the panic of 1893. Lorenzo Snow became the church's president in 1898 and worked to solve the church's money problems. ... The LDS Church paid off all its debts by the end of 1906. In 1907, Joseph F. Smith taught that the church would one day no longer have the need to ask for tithing donations as it built its wealth.

So what you're saying is that our church leaders ever since we've no longer been dependent on tithing donations... is that... they have been sinning against the Lord?
I'm not saying anything, I was asking a question!

However, I personally don't pay tithing (since 2019) because the church needs the money (or the Lord) but because the Lord told me that I promised him I would and if I want "the reward" he promised, I would continue....... However, he also showed me long ago, that a full tithe is only on the increase or interest, not what I made (gross). Lately, he has allowed me to be generous in my cost basis as I retired to recompute what he wants.
I agree with you, Duke, tithing is on the increase. I don't pay tithing right now because I payed on gross many years so I have payed ahead for many years. Also, with inflation we have no increase so no tithing is owed.

And finally, (this is where we differ) because to me the Council on the Disposition of Tithes have clearly proven themselves untrustworthy of handling tithing by misusing the Lord's money on things like donations to the NAACP, UNICEF, WEF, and by hoarding assets with Ensign Peak instead of building Zion.

silverado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by silverado »

ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:02 pm
silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 9:56 am
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 4:16 am

I don't see David A. Nielson as an actor in good faith. I think he has ulterior motives. He is either lying through his teeth about his motives or is a utterly naive imbecile.

Who here thinks that the Gadiantons should be paid a percentage of one's increase?
Whether taxes should be paid or not, it is the law. And A of F 12, we believe in 'obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.' Is it ok to preach one thing and do another?

To me, this is less about taxes and more about honesty.
Taxes may be the law, but not all laws are valid or moral. See Daniel.

Laws are about interpretations of the law. Laws are almost never really specific, iron clad, etc. When you study law one quickly realizes that the law IS NOT about what is right out wrong, only what is legal and illegal. Even then it depends on circumstances.

They're is more context and nuance to the 12th article faith that you are closing over.

I think this may be the one where Connor explored this a little
Yes not all laws are moral or good, but is lying while we break them ok? Two wrongs don't make a right.

To me this is more about honesty.

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TheDuke
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by TheDuke »

Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 6:48 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:35 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:19 pm


So what you're saying is that our church leaders ever since we've no longer been dependent on tithing donations... is that... they have been sinning against the Lord?
I'm not saying anything, I was asking a question!

However, I personally don't pay tithing (since 2019) because the church needs the money (or the Lord) but because the Lord told me that I promised him I would and if I want "the reward" he promised, I would continue....... However, he also showed me long ago, that a full tithe is only on the increase or interest, not what I made (gross). Lately, he has allowed me to be generous in my cost basis as I retired to recompute what he wants.
I agree with you, Duke, tithing is on the increase. I don't pay tithing right now because I payed on gross many years so I have payed ahead for many years. Also, with inflation we have no increase so no tithing is owed.

And finally, (this is where we differ) because to me the Council on the Disposition of Tithes have clearly proven themselves untrustworthy of handling tithing by misusing the Lord's money on things like donations to the NAACP, UNICEF, WEF, and by hoarding assets with Ensign Peak instead of building Zion.
I never said they used the tithes wisely. When I received my instructions from the Lord, even he did not say they did either. He just said it was none of my business, or better worded, wasn't important to my blessings. So, I pay but do complain about their waste, but short of saying they are evil or unworthy, as he told me it wasn't my problem.

Atrasado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Atrasado »

TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:31 pm
Atrasado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 6:48 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 12:35 pm
I'm not saying anything, I was asking a question!

However, I personally don't pay tithing (since 2019) because the church needs the money (or the Lord) but because the Lord told me that I promised him I would and if I want "the reward" he promised, I would continue....... However, he also showed me long ago, that a full tithe is only on the increase or interest, not what I made (gross). Lately, he has allowed me to be generous in my cost basis as I retired to recompute what he wants.
I agree with you, Duke, tithing is on the increase. I don't pay tithing right now because I payed on gross many years so I have payed ahead for many years. Also, with inflation we have no increase so no tithing is owed.

And finally, (this is where we differ) because to me the Council on the Disposition of Tithes have clearly proven themselves untrustworthy of handling tithing by misusing the Lord's money on things like donations to the NAACP, UNICEF, WEF, and by hoarding assets with Ensign Peak instead of building Zion.
I never said they used the tithes wisely. When I received my instructions from the Lord, even he did not say they did either. He just said it was none of my business, or better worded, wasn't important to my blessings. So, I pay but do complain about their waste, but short of saying they are evil or unworthy, as he told me it wasn't my problem.
Fair enough.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:25 pm
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:02 pm
silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 9:56 am

Whether taxes should be paid or not, it is the law. And A of F 12, we believe in 'obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.' Is it ok to preach one thing and do another?

To me, this is less about taxes and more about honesty.
Taxes may be the law, but not all laws are valid or moral. See Daniel.

Laws are about interpretations of the law. Laws are almost never really specific, iron clad, etc. When you study law one quickly realizes that the law IS NOT about what is right out wrong, only what is legal and illegal. Even then it depends on circumstances.

They're is more context and nuance to the 12th article faith that you are closing over.

I think this may be the one where Connor explored this a little
Yes not all laws are moral or good, but is lying while we break them ok? Two wrongs don't make a right.

To me this is more about honesty.
So being "dishonest" on your taxes is more important than mistreating tithing funds?

Also taxes and laws are open to interpretation, which is why after they are passed they are debated and argued and interpreted in a court of law. Also as a nonprofit the Church doesn't even necessarily have to pay taxes. The issue itself whether or not they have to pay or not is itself open for debate.

Besides, focusing on the taxes is a walking past a dollar to pick up a dime.

What are they doing with tithing money is the only real concern.

silverado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by silverado »

ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:02 am
silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:25 pm
ransomme wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 2:02 pm

Taxes may be the law, but not all laws are valid or moral. See Daniel.

Laws are about interpretations of the law. Laws are almost never really specific, iron clad, etc. When you study law one quickly realizes that the law IS NOT about what is right out wrong, only what is legal and illegal. Even then it depends on circumstances.

They're is more context and nuance to the 12th article faith that you are closing over.

I think this may be the one where Connor explored this a little
Yes not all laws are moral or good, but is lying while we break them ok? Two wrongs don't make a right.

To me this is more about honesty.
So being "dishonest" on your taxes is more important than mistreating tithing funds?

Also taxes and laws are open to interpretation, which is why after they are passed they are debated and argued and interpreted in a court of law. Also as a nonprofit the Church doesn't even necessarily have to pay taxes. The issue itself whether or not they have to pay or not is itself open for debate.

Besides, focusing on the taxes is a walking past a dollar to pick up a dime.

What are they doing with tithing money is the only real concern.
All the money that was supposedly controlled by the shell companies, and all the money that should or should not be taxed, all started with tithing money. There would not have been anything to invest if members had not first paid tithing. If they are being dishonest with taxes or shell companies they are being dishonest with or mistreating tithing money imho.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:58 am
ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:02 am
silverado wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 7:25 pm

Yes not all laws are moral or good, but is lying while we break them ok? Two wrongs don't make a right.

To me this is more about honesty.
So being "dishonest" on your taxes is more important than mistreating tithing funds?

Also taxes and laws are open to interpretation, which is why after they are passed they are debated and argued and interpreted in a court of law. Also as a nonprofit the Church doesn't even necessarily have to pay taxes. The issue itself whether or not they have to pay or not is itself open for debate.

Besides, focusing on the taxes is a walking past a dollar to pick up a dime.

What are they doing with tithing money is the only real concern.
All the money that was supposedly controlled by the shell companies, and all the money that should or should not be taxed, all started with tithing money. There would not have been anything to invest if members had not first paid tithing. If they are being dishonest with taxes or shell companies they are being dishonest with or mistreating tithing money imho.
🤔 So everything would have been ok if they filled out the forms properly?

Good & Global
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Good & Global »

Yes if they filled out the forms properly then most members wouldn't care that the Q15 buddies and families were getting rich off the tithing funds or that they weren't and were never going to be used for their intended purpose.

They wouldn't have a clue which is how they like it.

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TheDuke
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by TheDuke »

actually "tax laws" is quite a misnomer for these things. They are tax policies and rule; but mostly accounting rules set by US executive directors. LAWS must be passed by legislatures. Legislatures only pass high level rules, like limits on long-term gains and such. everything else is just rules by the executive organizations attached to a high level law. Do you see anyone going to normal court for tax laws? No, only for punishment of the higher laws, like "evasion".

Not saying what is right or wrong, just would like more clear wording of claims.

BTW this is IMPORTANT as the word "laws" were used incorrectly by the PTB during COVID plandemic to implement rules or policies or random executive orders; few to none were laws and ratified by the legislature. Hence the problem isn't the rules it is the loss of the "rule of law" which prohibits these rules from taking the form of laws. Note: congress is attacking (likely losing) Biden on many fronts as his exec organizations implement rules as laws (EPA with stove rules, furnace rules, car emission rules, Interior drilling rules, OSHA gay rules, etc....) NOT LAWS!

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TheDuke
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by TheDuke »

Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:39 pm Yes if they filled out the forms properly then most members wouldn't care that the Q15 buddies and families were getting rich off the tithing funds or that they weren't and were never going to be used for their intended purpose.

They wouldn't have a clue which is how they like it.
SHOW THIS! I've not seen one Q15 or other LDS leader "getting rich" off any EPA investments; nor ANY claim of such. This is a WILD CLAIM, please provide some prove or at least corroborating evidence if you want ot make such a claim! I.e. put up or shut up with such nonsense!

silverado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by silverado »

ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:10 pm
silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:58 am
ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:02 am

So being "dishonest" on your taxes is more important than mistreating tithing funds?

Also taxes and laws are open to interpretation, which is why after they are passed they are debated and argued and interpreted in a court of law. Also as a nonprofit the Church doesn't even necessarily have to pay taxes. The issue itself whether or not they have to pay or not is itself open for debate.

Besides, focusing on the taxes is a walking past a dollar to pick up a dime.

What are they doing with tithing money is the only real concern.
All the money that was supposedly controlled by the shell companies, and all the money that should or should not be taxed, all started with tithing money. There would not have been anything to invest if members had not first paid tithing. If they are being dishonest with taxes or shell companies they are being dishonest with or mistreating tithing money imho.
🤔 So everything would have been ok if they filled out the forms properly?
? I said all the money they were using originally came from tithing. So if they are dishonest with it, I think that it is the same as being dishonest with tithing.

Good & Global
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Good & Global »

TheDuke wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:48 pm
Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:39 pm Yes if they filled out the forms properly then most members wouldn't care that the Q15 buddies and families were getting rich off the tithing funds or that they weren't and were never going to be used for their intended purpose.

They wouldn't have a clue which is how they like it.
SHOW THIS! I've not seen one Q15 or other LDS leader "getting rich" off any EPA investments; nor ANY claim of such. This is a WILD CLAIM, please provide some prove or at least corroborating evidence if you want ot make such a claim! I.e. put up or shut up with such nonsense!
You got me! I can't show you this. You win. (Sorry that made me chuckle)

This is the whole point of why they cover their sins. So they can't be caught. See Gad oaths in Book of Mormon.
See Bush and WMD. See Gates Fauci and Pfizer. I am sorry I cannot draw a direct line. If you don't think corruption goes any farther than the shots or the SEC or Gospel Topic Essays then I have property in Ukraine to sell you.

There is a whole network of things going on behind the scenes. There are lots of way to get rich off of it without touching it directly. They can get rich off of temples too. Really anything because of the amounts of money being dealt with.

Don't think they wouldn't do that? Hint: Churches don't play the shell company game, corrupt corporations and people who specialize in financial funny business do. Something to consider. Because even real evidence can be excused away on this forum.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 10:22 pm
ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:10 pm
silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:58 am

All the money that was supposedly controlled by the shell companies, and all the money that should or should not be taxed, all started with tithing money. There would not have been anything to invest if members had not first paid tithing. If they are being dishonest with taxes or shell companies they are being dishonest with or mistreating tithing money imho.
🤔 So everything would have been ok if they filled out the forms properly?
? I said all the money they were using originally came from tithing. So if they are dishonest with it, I think that it is the same as being dishonest with tithing.
If I am not mistaken, you are talking about being dishonest because of the financial forms. Correct?

My point is that those forms are as good as toilet paper. What matters is are they spending the tithes to care for the poor? To build Zion?

That's all that matters. Financial forms are as good as toilet paper, used

silverado
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by silverado »

ransomme wrote: June 5th, 2023, 6:30 am
silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 10:22 pm
ransomme wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:10 pm

🤔 So everything would have been ok if they filled out the forms properly?
? I said all the money they were using originally came from tithing. So if they are dishonest with it, I think that it is the same as being dishonest with tithing.
If I am not mistaken, you are talking about being dishonest because of the financial forms. Correct?

My point is that those forms are as good as toilet paper. What matters is are they spending the tithes to care for the poor? To build Zion?

That's all that matters. Financial forms are as good as toilet paper, used
Just because I was talking about one form of dishonesty does not mean I think there are no other ways they could be dishonest with tithing. A 13f form is something you can see, look at, easy to understand how that is wrong. How they should have spent tithing, you cant look at what never was. You cant see the amount of good things that could have been done. The forms are concrete, they show what they really did, rather than what they could/should have done.

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ransomme
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Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by ransomme »

silverado wrote: June 5th, 2023, 8:40 am
ransomme wrote: June 5th, 2023, 6:30 am
silverado wrote: June 4th, 2023, 10:22 pm

? I said all the money they were using originally came from tithing. So if they are dishonest with it, I think that it is the same as being dishonest with tithing.
If I am not mistaken, you are talking about being dishonest because of the financial forms. Correct?

My point is that those forms are as good as toilet paper. What matters is are they spending the tithes to care for the poor? To build Zion?

That's all that matters. Financial forms are as good as toilet paper, used
Just because I was talking about one form of dishonesty does not mean I think there are no other ways they could be dishonest with tithing. A 13f form is something you can see, look at, easy to understand how that is wrong. How they should have spent tithing, you cant look at what never was. You cant see the amount of good things that could have been done. The forms are concrete, they show what they really did, rather than what they could/should have done.
That money hasn't been spent, it's been invested. 😜 They still have and control the money.

Do you like America? Were the founding fathers inspired?

Good & Global
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1510

Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by Good & Global »

Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 11:01 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:48 pm
Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:39 pm Yes if they filled out the forms properly then most members wouldn't care that the Q15 buddies and families were getting rich off the tithing funds or that they weren't and were never going to be used for their intended purpose.

They wouldn't have a clue which is how they like it.
SHOW THIS! I've not seen one Q15 or other LDS leader "getting rich" off any EPA investments; nor ANY claim of such. This is a WILD CLAIM, please provide some prove or at least corroborating evidence if you want ot make such a claim! I.e. put up or shut up with such nonsense!
You got me! I can't show you this. You win. (Sorry that made me chuckle)

This is the whole point of why they cover their sins. So they can't be caught. See Gad oaths in Book of Mormon.
See Bush and WMD. See Gates Fauci and Pfizer. I am sorry I cannot draw a direct line. If you don't think corruption goes any farther than the shots or the SEC or Gospel Topic Essays then I have property in Ukraine to sell you.

There is a whole network of things going on behind the scenes. There are lots of way to get rich off of it without touching it directly. They can get rich off of temples too. Really anything because of the amounts of money being dealt with.

Don't think they wouldn't do that? Hint: Churches don't play the shell company game, corrupt corporations and people who specialize in financial funny business do. Something to consider. Because even real evidence can be excused away on this forum.
Duke you ever hear of forgivable loans? Even Heber J Grant lived off the church basically with forgivable loans if we could call them that. Alright that is just one way now Sub will be along shortly to excuse it away.

Also the money in the hedge fund doesn't need to be spent to give it away, although they did dole it out for city creek and beneficial life both for profit enterprises. That itself is amazingly egregious.

But in any case, the general premise is it doesn't need to spent to give it away It just needs to be encumbered with a liability to give it away. See Corporate Finance 101.

User avatar
FrankOne
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2826

Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by FrankOne »

Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 11:01 pm
TheDuke wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:48 pm
Good & Global wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:39 pm Yes if they filled out the forms properly then most members wouldn't care that the Q15 buddies and families were getting rich off the tithing funds or that they weren't and were never going to be used for their intended purpose.

They wouldn't have a clue which is how they like it.
SHOW THIS! I've not seen one Q15 or other LDS leader "getting rich" off any EPA investments; nor ANY claim of such. This is a WILD CLAIM, please provide some prove or at least corroborating evidence if you want ot make such a claim! I.e. put up or shut up with such nonsense!
You win. (Sorry that made me chuckle)

:D

silverado
captain of 100
Posts: 612

Re: We consider the matter closed...

Post by silverado »

ransomme wrote: June 5th, 2023, 3:07 pm
silverado wrote: June 5th, 2023, 8:40 am
ransomme wrote: June 5th, 2023, 6:30 am

If I am not mistaken, you are talking about being dishonest because of the financial forms. Correct?

My point is that those forms are as good as toilet paper. What matters is are they spending the tithes to care for the poor? To build Zion?

That's all that matters. Financial forms are as good as toilet paper, used
Just because I was talking about one form of dishonesty does not mean I think there are no other ways they could be dishonest with tithing. A 13f form is something you can see, look at, easy to understand how that is wrong. How they should have spent tithing, you cant look at what never was. You cant see the amount of good things that could have been done. The forms are concrete, they show what they really did, rather than what they could/should have done.
That money hasn't been spent, it's been invested. 😜 They still have and control the money.

Do you like America? Were the founding fathers inspired?
I never said the money was spent. I don't see what your last 2 questions have to do with this and I'm done responding, it is a waste of time. Have a nice day.

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