Seers and Revelators

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jonesde
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Seers and Revelators

Post by jonesde »

Does anyone know of scriptural references or words of modern prophets that clarify the difference between a seer and a revelator?

My understanding of it so far, or the best I can come up with based on scripture and my current understanding of the Godhead is this:

To a seer is given to see what has been revealed by others, and to see the truth and gaps in it. A prophet, as a seer and a revelator, is also given power to reveal that which they have seen. A revelator who is not given to be a seer can reveal what they understand with great clarity and have that understanding refined by a seer. A wise revelator will always seek to refine their understanding continually as they reveal it, by the Light of Christ and power of the Holy Ghost, and by chosen seers given to guide and correct. The master seer available to enlighten all is Jesus the Christ, lighting our way by his own light that we might see. The master revelator available to all to deepen our understanding by revealing to us his own understanding is the Holy Ghost.

A seer and a revelator working together as a pair are able to do far more than a single person doing both, and there is danger in any person trying to take on both roles at the same time. By the divine pattern a prophet who is both a seer and a revelator will always take one role at a time, and work with others as seers or revelators in the companion role. This pattern holds power whether used by a prophet, a bishop, or even a father, all being divine callings giving both authority as a seer and power as a revelator, and all given companions to act in the other role in different circumstances.

That sums up much of what I understand of this duality so far, as part of the pair accountability pattern which is mandatory in the Kingdom of Heaven… no one acts alone in a calling (always in seer-revelator pairs) or is even allowed to walk among them alone in the highest kingdoms of the heavens (eternal marriage).

(NOTE: there was a link to a google doc before in this post; I have removed it as something I am increasingly uncertain of, more likely dangerous ideas than anything inspired or helpful)
Last edited by jonesde on June 8th, 2023, 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ferrisbueller
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Ferrisbueller »

Question.
Are there, not seers who are not prophets? I might have met one once.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by jonesde »

Ferrisbueller wrote: June 1st, 2023, 6:55 pm Question.
Are there, not seers who are not prophets? I might have met one once.
In a way we are all seers and revelators over our selves, our families, and in our callings. As individuals we can act as a seer or revelator in prayer, asking our Father to take on the other role (ie seeking guidance is asking Him to be seer, seeking understanding is asking Him to be a revelator... which he does in either case usually through those who serve him, including by the Light of Christ (seer) or the power of the Holy Ghost (revelator)). That is different from being called as a seer or revelator, let alone as a prophet, seer, and revelator on behalf of our Father's children on the earth as is the case for the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Lynn »

My first comments, due to time, is that a Seer has the ability to pierce thru time, past & present. But is also a prophet (due to this). In the use of the word Revelator, it means one who reveals, which could be applied to either. A prophet merely prophecies, but usually does not have the insight that a seer would

No, there does not need to be two. However, sometimes, it is best to have a spokesman. Such as the case of Moses, with Aaron. Except in that situation, Moses had a lisp due to burning his lips on hot coals in his youth, due to a test to confuse the prophets of the Pharoah proposed by Michael the archangel disguised as one of them. By this test, he saved Moses from death, as the Pharoah's prophets/seers had pointed to Moses as the one that would wreak havoc to the Pharoah.

The Holy Spirit is not in a sense, a person, but more akin to a persona, which reveals. It is also behind CHANGE or transmutation.

Jesus & John the Baptist (aka Elijah) are the two master seers, representing the Sun & the Moon, the two messengers of Light. In the AG version of the NT, Jesus points to John & says he was (previously) Elijah, and the greatest of the seers. AG 64:2
++++++++++++++++++
CHAPTER 64
Overview: Jesus comes to Galilee, and is baptized by John.
The Holy Breath confirms his messiahship.

1) The news reached Galilee, and Jesus with the multitude went down to where the harbinger was preaching at the ford.


2) When Jesus saw the harbinger he said.
Behold the man of God! Behold the greatest of the seers! Behold, Elijah has returned!

3) Behold the messenger whom God has sent to open up the way! The kingdom is at hand.

4) When John saw Jesus standing with the throng he said,
Behold the king who cometh in the name of God!
5) And Jesus said to John,
++++++++++++++++++

In the Gnostic texts, two disciples ask Jesus about the people wanting them to prophesy. Jesus explains that John was the head of prophecy. And that its head was removed. This refers to John being beheaded. If not mistaken, that is in the Gospel of Thomas. Naturally that book is not behind me as I had hoped. I've got it in at least two books.

Excuse me, it is found in 'The Secret Teachings of Jesus: 4 Gnostic Gospels' - Marvin W. Meyer page 7 in "The Secret Book of James" 4:1-4. I just remembered something that helped me find it in my notebook of Book Notes from 1988

And as I have noted before, John the Baptist is the true author of Revelation. He was in the spirit on the Isle of Patmos, while imprisoned for well over a year before getting beheaded. And due to what all he saw & was told, he sent his disciples to inquire of Jesus, wondering if his cousin was to fulfill it all right then, or wait for another appearance. Jesus never completely clarifies that in an answer. Jesus alludes to certain things being done in the context of that current moment.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

These verses from Mosiah ch 8 tell how to identify a seer.

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

A seer has a Urim and Thumim through which he can see the past and the future. He can interpret unknown languages with it and can see pretty much anything that God allows. It also is common knowledge that he has a Urim and Thumim.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 15 alleged "prophets, seers, and revelators" possess a Urim and Thumim. None of them see or prophesy the future nor have any of them revealed anything. The Covid debacle is a case in point. None of them could "see" that the jab was of satanic origin or if they could, they didn't care.
Last edited by Rumpelstiltskin on June 1st, 2023, 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Ferrisbueller wrote: June 1st, 2023, 6:55 pm Question.
Are there, not seers who are not prophets? I might have met one once.
Perhaps some interesting timing patterns were seen twice upon a time that spell CHRIST and CRIST, which is an old world spelling. The CRIST pattern was for an earthquake that landed Moroni’s Instrument. 8-)

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by jonesde »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: June 1st, 2023, 9:53 pm These verses from Mosiah ch 8 tell how to identify a seer.
Mosiah 8 is interesting, but not very helpful for the difference between a seer and revelator. There are many scriptures that talk about the Holy Ghost as a revelator, and some references to Christ as a seer, which is where I picked up the distinction.

I've been negligent in keeping track of these, so I did a quick google search and found this, for example:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng
The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a revelator (see Luke 12:11–12; John 14:26; 2 Nephi 32:5; Alma 5:46–47; D&C 8:2–3).
“The Holy Ghost is a revelator. Every worthy soul is entitled to a revelation, and it comes through the Holy Ghost. In Moroni’s farewell to the Lamanites, he says: ‘And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.’ (Moroni 10:5.)
For Christ as a seer scriptural references are not so explicit, there is more about Peter being a seer (Cephas being a stone, meaning a seer), and about Joseph Smith being a seer. The best references are for the Light of Christ, which is the light by which we see and that gives us direction, which is the meaning of seer that I used above:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by BuriedTartaria »

jonesde wrote: June 1st, 2023, 6:28 pm Does anyone know of scriptural references or words of modern prophets that clarify the difference between a seer and a revelator?
Doesn't the Book of Mormon have a verse about that? Something about "a seer is greater than a prophet" when the mulekite leader turns over records hoping the Nephites have the wherewithal to translate them?

Good & Global
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Good & Global »

I have to go with Rumpelstiltskin

Prophet - God's mouthpiece on the earth, in direct communications, spirit of prophecy
Seer - can translate records of ancient date with Urim and Thummin (allows see past, present, future) > prophet
Revelator - reveals events to come or hidden things, receives visions - John the Revelator wrote Revelations

Lynn
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Lynn »

As to ...
++++++++++++++
For Christ as a seer scriptural references are not so explicit, there is more about Peter being a seer (Cephas being a stone, meaning a seer), and about Joseph Smith being a seer.
++++++++++++++

You are correct in that Jesus is referring to Simon "Petros" as Cephas which is meant as a seer. However, "Peter" did not truly bring his gift forward in that era. Meaning that he did not cultivate it to the possible extent. In today's current timeline, he has. In the Paul Solomon Readings it speaks of 3 to come in our current timeline, from those in the days of Jesus. In PSR or SR #1567 with excerpts on pp. 165-166 of Solomon's biography- 'The Prophetic Revelations of Paul Solomon: Earthward Toward a Heavenly Light' -W. Alexander Wheeler (1994 PB) or possibly in your library- BF1408.2.S65W44 1994 as it notes that John, Paul & Peter will establish the foundation in our current age. However, "Paul will then pass from the work (pass from the physical -noted by Wheeler)". Anyway, the remaining two will accomplish the task at hand. Also on pp.166-167 in PSR #854 there will be others here from Jesus' time. "That sacred mountain" is mentioned as well, which is actually referring to that sacred hill in Independence, Missouri, from which the emissaries will be sent from.

Jesus explains that the church shall have seers at the base, or in charge (as the foundation) of it.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

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Rumpelstiltskin wrote: June 1st, 2023, 9:53 pm These verses from Mosiah ch 8 tell how to identify a seer.

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

A seer has a Urim and Thumim through which he can see the past and the future. He can interpret unknown languages with it and can see pretty much anything that God allows. It also is common knowledge that he has a Urim and Thumim.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 15 alleged "prophets, seers, and revelators" possess a Urim and Thumim. None of them see or prophesy the future nor have any of them revealed anything. The Covid debacle is a case in point. None of them could "see" that the jab was of satanic origin or if they could, they didn't care.
To my understanding, Joseph taught that a 'revelator" reveals new scripture....... not just more revelations but scripture. a seer as stated above sees things in a seer stone (not necessarily a U&T but a stone, note all will get one in the CK). a prophet prophesies things of the future. However, general PSR is just the keys to do these things, doesn't mean they actually do, just have the keys, like the HPs of old Israel could do admin, had the power of HP's but generally did nothing with the powers but pass them down.

BTW I think today's PSR's don't prophesy, don't reveal new scripture (bah on GC talks being as or like scripture and uncanonized), and they would choke if you showed them a seer stone! But, I have been told (by my Lord) they still have the keys of PSR, at least the sealing keys and right to admin of the HP.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by blitzinstripes »

Let's not forget that according to JS, the original definition of a seer required that they had possession of a Urim and Thummim, or at the very least, a seer stone. Joseph and even his father held the spiritual gift of seership before he was called as a prophet, he had the ability to gaze into various stones and see visions and revelations. How many of the Q15 possess Urim and Thummims or seer stones? I'll let you take your own best guess. Somewhere along the way they took the liberty of redefining a seer to be a title they bestowed upon themselves, ignoring the requisites. I have no knowledge of God changing his definition.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by blitzinstripes »

I've personally known a few SEERS with the gift, and in possession of stones. Not one of them is a general authority. Interestingly enough, the church used to teach (BY) that every one of us is entitled to a seer stone of our own if we will seek it with righteous intent and purpose. That would be a great comment to hijack a gospel doctrine class or EQ....😁 Maybe casually mention your seer stone (or your desire/ quest) to your bishop in your next TR interview. See how THAT goes.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Ymarsakar »

Stones aka crystals new age

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Ymarsakar wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 5:55 am Stones aka crystals new age
Is a camera lens a stone. :?:

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Ymarsakar »

BeNotDeceived wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 6:35 am
Ymarsakar wrote: June 3rd, 2023, 5:55 am Stones aka crystals new age
Is a camera lens a stone. :?:
Artificial glass

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by Good & Global »

blitzinstripes wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 9:06 pm I've personally known a few SEERS with the gift, and in possession of stones. Not one of them is a general authority. Interestingly enough, the church used to teach (BY) that every one of us is entitled to a seer stone of our own if we will seek it with righteous intent and purpose. That would be a great comment to hijack a gospel doctrine class or EQ....😁 Maybe casually mention your seer stone (or your desire/ quest) to your bishop in your next TR interview. See how THAT goes.
That is not Brigham Young only.

It is in the Book of Revelations 2:17

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Ferrisbueller wrote: June 1st, 2023, 6:55 pm Question.
Are there, not seers who are not prophets? I might have met one once.
Yup.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Seers and Revelators

Post by Ymarsakar »

Seers are called psychics in modern parlance. New age calls em crystals not stones.

A prophet that has no seer or psi skills is a charlatan instead. One that is like ballam is a psychic but does mot serve rhe god of isis ra el

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 8:25 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: June 1st, 2023, 9:53 pm These verses from Mosiah ch 8 tell how to identify a seer.

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

A seer has a Urim and Thumim through which he can see the past and the future. He can interpret unknown languages with it and can see pretty much anything that God allows. It also is common knowledge that he has a Urim and Thumim.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 15 alleged "prophets, seers, and revelators" possess a Urim and Thumim. None of them see or prophesy the future nor have any of them revealed anything. The Covid debacle is a case in point. None of them could "see" that the jab was of satanic origin or if they could, they didn't care.
To my understanding, Joseph taught that a 'revelator" reveals new scripture....... not just more revelations but scripture. a seer as stated above sees things in a seer stone (not necessarily a U&T but a stone, note all will get one in the CK). a prophet prophesies things of the future. However, general PSR is just the keys to do these things, doesn't mean they actually do, just have the keys, like the HPs of old Israel could do admin, had the power of HP's but generally did nothing with the powers but pass them down.

BTW I think today's PSR's don't prophesy, don't reveal new scripture (bah on GC talks being as or like scripture and uncanonized), and they would choke if you showed them a seer stone! But, I have been told (by my Lord) they still have the keys of PSR, at least the sealing keys and right to admin of the HP.
The Lord tells us in scripture that the reason why a Priesthood holder is unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness -- even though they had already been ordained with a particular key.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by TheDuke »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 11th, 2023, 6:49 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 8:25 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: June 1st, 2023, 9:53 pm These verses from Mosiah ch 8 tell how to identify a seer.

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

A seer has a Urim and Thumim through which he can see the past and the future. He can interpret unknown languages with it and can see pretty much anything that God allows. It also is common knowledge that he has a Urim and Thumim.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 15 alleged "prophets, seers, and revelators" possess a Urim and Thumim. None of them see or prophesy the future nor have any of them revealed anything. The Covid debacle is a case in point. None of them could "see" that the jab was of satanic origin or if they could, they didn't care.
To my understanding, Joseph taught that a 'revelator" reveals new scripture....... not just more revelations but scripture. a seer as stated above sees things in a seer stone (not necessarily a U&T but a stone, note all will get one in the CK). a prophet prophesies things of the future. However, general PSR is just the keys to do these things, doesn't mean they actually do, just have the keys, like the HPs of old Israel could do admin, had the power of HP's but generally did nothing with the powers but pass them down.

BTW I think today's PSR's don't prophesy, don't reveal new scripture (bah on GC talks being as or like scripture and uncanonized), and they would choke if you showed them a seer stone! But, I have been told (by my Lord) they still have the keys of PSR, at least the sealing keys and right to admin of the HP.
The Lord tells us in scripture that the reason why a Priesthood holder is unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness -- even though they had already been ordained with a particular key.
please explain the "supposed" implications of this unworthiness! I'll wait. and "amen" isn't very much of a limitation.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by TheDuke »

blitzinstripes wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 9:00 pm Let's not forget that according to JS, the original definition of a seer required that they had possession of a Urim and Thummim, or at the very least, a seer stone. Joseph and even his father held the spiritual gift of seership before he was called as a prophet, he had the ability to gaze into various stones and see visions and revelations. How many of the Q15 possess Urim and Thummims or seer stones? I'll let you take your own best guess. Somewhere along the way they took the liberty of redefining a seer to be a title they bestowed upon themselves, ignoring the requisites. I have no knowledge of God changing his definition.
Joseph's father had no spiritual gifts. I don't accept any of those stories. He might have been a good man but he never even believed in religion or even the godhead as a unitarian. Joseph brought him along but he never progressed much. I'd stick to Joseph being a seer. None but but one line had U&T, and neither did Joseph. U&T is of Bible lineage. Joseph had "interpreters" for a season then his seer stone(s). U&T is wrongly used as a metaphor for the "interpreters" which are never accurately called a U&T. Now we could rewrite the term U&T to be more, but seems inappropriate to me.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

TheDuke wrote: June 11th, 2023, 9:32 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 11th, 2023, 6:49 am
TheDuke wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 8:25 pm

To my understanding, Joseph taught that a 'revelator" reveals new scripture....... not just more revelations but scripture. a seer as stated above sees things in a seer stone (not necessarily a U&T but a stone, note all will get one in the CK). a prophet prophesies things of the future. However, general PSR is just the keys to do these things, doesn't mean they actually do, just have the keys, like the HPs of old Israel could do admin, had the power of HP's but generally did nothing with the powers but pass them down.

BTW I think today's PSR's don't prophesy, don't reveal new scripture (bah on GC talks being as or like scripture and uncanonized), and they would choke if you showed them a seer stone! But, I have been told (by my Lord) they still have the keys of PSR, at least the sealing keys and right to admin of the HP.
The Lord tells us in scripture that the reason why a Priesthood holder is unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness -- even though they had already been ordained with a particular key.
please explain the "supposed" implications of this unworthiness! I'll wait. and "amen" isn't very much of a limitation.
What do you mean?

Have you seen fruits of a prophet in these men? What's the explanation as to why they cannot produce them? Please use the scriptures as your source.

I have seen a lot of corrupt fruit from them though.

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Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by TheDuke »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 11th, 2023, 10:25 am
TheDuke wrote: June 11th, 2023, 9:32 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 11th, 2023, 6:49 am

The Lord tells us in scripture that the reason why a Priesthood holder is unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness -- even though they had already been ordained with a particular key.
please explain the "supposed" implications of this unworthiness! I'll wait. and "amen" isn't very much of a limitation.
What do you mean?

Have you seen fruits of a prophet in these men? What's the explanation as to why they cannot produce them? Please use the scriptures as your source.

I have seen a lot of corrupt fruit from them though.
you claimed above "...unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness ..." I simply am asking what restrictions you read that the Lord put on their PH both things you mentioned, i.e. power & authority? I've read some things vaguely talking about this but never anything about administrative, and even the opposite about administrative rights and powers (i.e. daily work and passing on to others) as being inviolable and never taken. So, I am asking what you are saying is/can/will be taken from unrighteousness (would be everyone ever with PH at some point, this is a telestial sphere). So, tell me. Has nothing to do with fruits or veggies; you said and I quote "power" and you said "authority" and claimed that the "Lord tells us in scriptures.....".

Hope that clears up my query. (don't change subject with a fruit discussion, please).

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InfoWarrior82
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Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Seers and Revelators, Fear and Pride

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

TheDuke wrote: June 11th, 2023, 1:31 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: June 11th, 2023, 10:25 am
TheDuke wrote: June 11th, 2023, 9:32 am

please explain the "supposed" implications of this unworthiness! I'll wait. and "amen" isn't very much of a limitation.
What do you mean?

Have you seen fruits of a prophet in these men? What's the explanation as to why they cannot produce them? Please use the scriptures as your source.

I have seen a lot of corrupt fruit from them though.
you claimed above "...unable to exercise the power and authority of the priesthood is personal unworthiness ..." I simply am asking what restrictions you read that the Lord put on their PH both things you mentioned, i.e. power & authority? I've read some things vaguely talking about this but never anything about administrative, and even the opposite about administrative rights and powers (i.e. daily work and passing on to others) as being inviolable and never taken. So, I am asking what you are saying is/can/will be taken from unrighteousness (would be everyone ever with PH at some point, this is a telestial sphere). So, tell me. Has nothing to do with fruits or veggies; you said and I quote "power" and you said "authority" and claimed that the "Lord tells us in scriptures.....".

Hope that clears up my query. (don't change subject with a fruit discussion, please).
Hi Duke,

Hope this helps. Happy Sabbath.


D&C 121

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.


D&C 84


35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore ball that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

44 For you shall alive by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is blight, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.


57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

62 Therefore, ago ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.

63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

64 Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost.

65 And these signs shall follow them that believe—

66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works;

67 In my name they shall cast out devils;

68 In my name they shall heal the sick;

69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;

70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak;

71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them;

72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them.

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