The Light After Death: My Journey To Heaven and Back (Vincent Tolman)

[Ymarsakar]

"I said the pattern of speaking about prejudice, authenticity, blanket tolerance and loving everyone was a recipe for dysfunction and societal rot."

Does this apply to Jeshua when he taught from the Sermon on the Mount to love your neighbors (and also enemies)?

To which he included the worst elements of society, criminals, tax collectors, and prostitutes.

You can talk the talk, but if you don't walk the walk, it is just a BLM con game.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Loving the wicked while rejecting their behavior…that seems pretty unsound.

Horrible advice, I know.

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

[Pazooka]

"I said the pattern of speaking about prejudice, authenticity, blanket tolerance and loving everyone was a recipe for dysfunction and societal rot."

Does this apply to Jeshua when he taught from the Sermon on the Mount to love your neighbors (and also enemies)?

To which he included the worst elements of society, criminals, tax collectors, and prostitutes.

You can talk the talk, but if you don't walk the walk, it is just a BLM con game.

I could suggest taking a look at the research into “Roman Provenance” of the New Testament. Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? Yes they did…with far-reaching consequences the likes of which Isaiah describes. Did Josephus have a motive to write in such a way that he would stay in the good graces of Rome? Yes he did.

Did Jesus teach to love one’s enemies? I highly, highly doubt it. Not if God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Jesus did not turn the teachings of God to His own people into a farce.

If you want to untangle some of that mess, you can also look into James, the brother of Jesus - - the one to whom the torch was passed after the death of Jesus. Did he mingle with tax collectors and prostitutes? No, he did not. And the “criminals” you speak of are actually what the NT calls “robbers” - and is what the Herodian Jews called those zealous for the Law…zealous enough to carry out guerrilla warfare against Roman subjection.

[ithink]

Vincent, as well as many NDE people, often report that they have suicidal thoughts after having such an experience. The love and light they feel in that space are so exquisite that this world truly does feel like hell. They have an indescribable longing to return. For Vincent, this longing subsided and he was able to regain his desire to be here and learn through his mortal experience.

I can't see how anyone who has really seen the other side would ever consider suicide. True, the good side is glorious, but hell is beyond belief terrible, depressing, lonely, and dark. I keep saying it and I wonder why I do? I don't know. The risk of entering into hell and being unable to walk out are too high I guess. I worry about my family, myself, friends (of which I have very few), and even many of you here who seem very kind and loving. I was going to say deluded but I deign to do so because I don't feel like I am the one to make that call. Whether I am fatally deluded or you are, is up for me to decide and for you also. It is not for anyone else.

Take very special care about how your life is all I can say. Be careful who you give your allegiance to since in fact, no allegiance itself can "save" you whatsoever. If you feel to have allegiance to Christ, then forget the allegiance itself, get honest and fair in your life, and his company will be your company because you will be like him, perfectly one, not as a mirror or a cookie cutter, but one in and of yourself.

Joseph said something similar. That if we were to glimpse the glory of the Celestial realms that we would willingly give up our lives to pass beyond the veil. There are many reasons for a veil, one of them is to keep us here in mortality and stave off the desire to return to our “real” home.

That's not my point and I do not agree with JS. Once having seen heaven, one simply feels confirmed to one's self what is essentially already known. There is no desire whatsoever to "leave here and go there" after having seen it because given that perspective, one's appreciation of God's creation right here right now is only augmented, not diminished at all. There is absolutely no desire to abandon this life and get to the next. What a foolish and silly proposition IMHO. It's ridiculous and it makes me wonder if he knew what he was talking about. Finally, there is no guarantee having seen it, one will inherit it. That is the problem. There is nothing sure about "getting to heaven".

Furthermore, without having seen hell itself, there is no understanding it. My worry is too many folk (myself included) think they are heading for the realms on high, but will find themselves in a dark and lonely place if they are not actually as lightweight, fair, and care free as a child.

[Ymarsakar]

That is just the beginning of course. THere are far more earth shattering things to be revealed than Josephus working for the Roman Empire in fabricating religious teachings to subdue the masses.

"I said the pattern of speaking about prejudice, authenticity, blanket tolerance and loving everyone was a recipe for dysfunction and societal rot."

Does this apply to Jeshua when he taught from the Sermon on the Mount to love your neighbors (and also enemies)?

To which he included the worst elements of society, criminals, tax collectors, and prostitutes.

You can talk the talk, but if you don't walk the walk, it is just a BLM con game.

I could suggest taking a look at the research into “Roman Provenance” of the New Testament. Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? Yes they did…with far-reaching consequences the likes of which Isaiah describes. Did Josephus have a motive to write in such a way that he would stay in the good graces of Rome? Yes he did.

Did Jesus teach to love one’s enemies? I highly, highly doubt it. Not if God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Jesus did not turn the teachings of God to His own people into a farce.

If you want to untangle some of that mess, you can also look into James, the brother of Jesus - - the one to whom the torch was passed after the death of Jesus. Did he mingle with tax collectors and prostitutes? No, he did not. And the “criminals” you speak of are actually what the NT calls “robbers” - and is what the Herodian Jews called those zealous for the Law…zealous enough to carry out guerrilla warfare against Roman subjection.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I can't see how anyone who has really seen the other side would ever consider suicide. True, the good side is glorious, but hell is beyond belief terrible, depressing, lonely, and dark. I keep saying it and I wonder why I do? I don't know. The risk of entering into hell and being unable to walk out are too high I guess. I worry about my family, myself, friends (of which I have very few), and even many of you here who seem very kind and loving. I was going to say deluded but I deign to do so because I don't feel like I am the one to make that call. Whether I am fatally deluded or you are, is up for me to decide and for you also. It is not for anyone else.

Take very special care about how your life is all I can say. Be careful who you give your allegiance to since in fact, no allegiance itself can "save" you whatsoever. If you feel to have allegiance to Christ, then forget the allegiance itself, get honest and fair in your life, and his company will be your company because you will be like him, perfectly one, not as a mirror or a cookie cutter, but one in and of yourself.

Joseph said something similar. That if we were to glimpse the glory of the Celestial realms that we would willingly give up our lives to pass beyond the veil. There are many reasons for a veil, one of them is to keep us here in mortality and stave off the desire to return to our “real” home.

That's not my point and I do not agree with JS. Once having seen heaven, one simply feels confirmed to one's self what is essentially already known. There is no desire whatsoever to "leave here and go there" after having seen it because given that perspective, one's appreciation of God's creation right here right now is only augmented, not diminished at all. There is absolutely no desire to abandon this life and get to the next. What a foolish and silly proposition IMHO. It's ridiculous and it makes me wonder if he knew what he was talking about. Finally, there is no guarantee having seen it, one will inherit it. That is the problem. There is nothing sure about "getting to heaven".

Furthermore, without having seen hell itself, there is no understanding it. My worry is too many folk (myself included) think they are heading for the realms on high, but will find themselves in a dark and lonely place if they are not actually as lightweight, fair, and care free as a child.

I actually agree with the idea. It seems to be a pattern as well. When I first began my awakening to the awful situation within the church, and was shown greater light, I could never look back at the church and feel the same way again. In some small sense, trying to fit my personal theology back into the LDS box would be hell. I would do anything to break free of the LDS confines/construct.

I find it “foolish” to think that this reality is anything but a fallen world. And to the inverse, that heaven is so far ascended as to be nearly incomprehensible to the human sensibility, and to even breach even the furthest outer realms would be beyond our comprehension of love and joy.

In reality, this is similar to a drug addict. When people to Meth, it is a common side effect that nothing else can replace that joy (high) from doing such a drug. It takes them a very long time, if ever, to find meaning and joy in life again.

[PeacefulProtests]

Somewhere in my perusal of NDE experiences (from a thread here on the forum) I ran across this experience from Vincent Tolman. I don’t know if I could recommend it more highly. It really had quite a profound impact in how I see and perceive things. He was raised LDS in Utah County btw.

I’d suggest listening to this condensed version first, and then watch the expanded version which fills in some important details.

Here’s the extended version w/ some beautiful details. I think this is a great companion experience to the one shared by Amy Call:

I listened to the extended version at work today and wow, what an amazing story, especially the part about the Grandma in the office, and the family reunion. Thanks so much for sharing, this left an impression on me for sure

[Lynn]

++++++++++++++++++++
... Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? ...
++++++++++++++++++++

Please 'splain this one with a little more details. Especially your definition or usage of "co-opt". I want to be correct (understand correctly) on your exact angle.

[Pazooka]

++++++++++++++++++++
... Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? ...
++++++++++++++++++++

Please 'splain this one with a little more details. Especially your definition or usage of "co-opt". I want to be correct (understand correctly) on your exact angle.

Co-opt as in: diverting and using for one’s own purposes, contrary to what was originally intended.

The Jesus movement would have been an Israelite Messianic, nationalist, anti-Roman one with John the Baptist as a preparer and purifier of the people (through the exercise of purity ritual) in anticipation of their needing the help of God and angels in order to throw off the iron yoke of the Romans and enjoy the rightful king of the line of David on the throne.

The Romans pursued every claimant to the throne of David and killed them, like the dragon of Revelation 12. Incidentally, the ceremony for the anointing of the king involved being “begotten” as a son of God.

The average Jew of Jesus’ day, including the Pharisees (grass-roots leaders of synagogues) were sympathetic to the Jesus movement. Those who were not were the wealthy Sadducees - Roman collaborators. These were the henchmen for the cause of Rome, Paul included (a sort of chief of police acting on behalf of the high priest). These people (like Herod and Paul) were usually only part Israelite.

After Jesus was killed, there was tension between his successor and brother, James, and the other claimant to authority…a person who never actually met the historical Jesus and had only lived as a Jew for a few short years but who was a very well-read Roman citizen with prominent Herodian friends and relatives - Paul.

As the rightful heirs to the movement (James, Simeon, etc) were killed and forced into hiding (like the “seed of the woman” in Rev 12), the Roman version of events began scripting itself, mostly from Rome, with the help of Paul and his followers. The blame for the death of Jesus was placed craftily on the Jews, with outlandish statements such as “his blood be upon us and our children forever” being said to have been shouted by them as they demanded his death. The victors write the history. The remnant is nurtured in secret. That’s kind of how it goes, until that final day.

The struggle to maintain control over Palestine for the next several decades required Rome’s Jesus to say the craziest things: love your enemies, if a Roman soldier compels you to carry his pack for a mile go with him two, pay your taxes, etc. Oh yeah, and the Messiah was spiritual and not literal nor political. So calm down. Quit being zealous toward your God and His/Her Law - - it doesn’t matter anymore.

[Lynn]

Thanks Pazooka!!! Yes, many do not realize that it was mainly those higher up such as the Jews in the Sanhedrin (exception for sure though, was that Jesus' Uncle Joseph of Arimathea was not as they were) and the Romans in charge. They had to make it look as if the Jews were putting Jesus to death. But covertly, they tried several times to actually kill Jesus. The writings of the Far East condemn, not just the Romans, but those Jews who participated in Jesus' death. The common people in the Far East adored & respected Jesus. As to one time, the Roman's tried to quietly do away with Jesus (boxed him into a crate & threw the crate over the wall of which was high on one side & a deep gully below), is shared in Dolores Cannon's book 'They Walked With Jesus' (PB). There were words between Pilate & Jesus, as well. Pilate asked him something to which Jesus replied, Why ask him, as Pilate had hired spies to speak falsely of Jesus. Mother Mary, along with some of the Apostles, escaped Jerusalem with the help of Joseph of Arimathea. They eventually wound up in the UK. The Romans sabotaged the ship Joseph had, as to the steering. For the details, as well as Mother Mary being buried in the UK is found in the extensively researched book- 'The Drama of the Lost Disciples' - George F. Jowett (1961/16th US Ed. 2009 PB).

[Ymarsakar]

I consider saul s testimony to be legitimate. There are major problems with josephus and some of the other apostles however

Rome did not consolidate the nazarene faiths until constantine. Until then it was a ounishable by death offense to be in a cult not sanctioned by rome.

++++++++++++++++++++
... Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? ...
++++++++++++++++++++

Please 'splain this one with a little more details. Especially your definition or usage of "co-opt". I want to be correct (understand correctly) on your exact angle.

Co-opt as in: diverting and using for one’s own purposes, contrary to what was originally intended.

The Jesus movement would have been an Israelite Messianic, nationalist, anti-Roman one with John the Baptist as a preparer and purifier of the people (through the exercise of purity ritual) in anticipation of their needing the help of God and angels in order to throw off the iron yoke of the Romans and enjoy the rightful king of the line of David on the throne.

The Romans pursued every claimant to the throne of David and killed them, like the dragon of Revelation 12. Incidentally, the ceremony for the anointing of the king involved being “begotten” as a son of God.

The average Jew of Jesus’ day, including the Pharisees (grass-roots leaders of synagogues) were sympathetic to the Jesus movement. Those who were not were the wealthy Sadducees - Roman collaborators. These were the henchmen for the cause of Rome, Paul included (a sort of chief of police acting on behalf of the high priest). These people (like Herod and Paul) were usually only part Israelite.

After Jesus was killed, there was tension between his successor and brother, James, and the other claimant to authority…a person who never actually met the historical Jesus and had only lived as a Jew for a few short years but who was a very well-read Roman citizen with prominent Herodian friends and relatives - Paul.

As the rightful heirs to the movement (James, Simeon, etc) were killed and forced into hiding (like the “seed of the woman” in Rev 12), the Roman version of events began scripting itself, mostly from Rome, with the help of Paul and his followers. The blame for the death of Jesus was placed craftily on the Jews, with outlandish statements such as “his blood be upon us and our children forever” being said to have been shouted by them as they demanded his death. The victors write the history. The remnant is nurtured in secret. That’s kind of how it goes, until that final day.

The struggle to maintain control over Palestine for the next several decades required Rome’s Jesus to say the craziest things: love your enemies, if a Roman soldier compels you to carry his pack for a mile go with him two, pay your taxes, etc. Oh yeah, and the Messiah was spiritual and not literal nor political. So calm down. Quit being zealous toward your God and His/Her Law - - it doesn’t matter anymore.

[Pazooka]

I consider saul s testimony to be legitimate. There are major problems with josephus and some of the other apostles however

Rome did not consolidate the nazarene faiths until constantine. Until then it was a ounishable by death offense to be in a cult not sanctioned by rome.

++++++++++++++++++++
... Did Rome have motive to co-opt the Jesus movement during and after the destruction of Jerusalem as a means of pacifying the Jews and placing the blame for the death of Jesus on their own heads? ...
++++++++++++++++++++

Please 'splain this one with a little more details. Especially your definition or usage of "co-opt". I want to be correct (understand correctly) on your exact angle.

Co-opt as in: diverting and using for one’s own purposes, contrary to what was originally intended.

The Jesus movement would have been an Israelite Messianic, nationalist, anti-Roman one with John the Baptist as a preparer and purifier of the people (through the exercise of purity ritual) in anticipation of their needing the help of God and angels in order to throw off the iron yoke of the Romans and enjoy the rightful king of the line of David on the throne.

The Romans pursued every claimant to the throne of David and killed them, like the dragon of Revelation 12. Incidentally, the ceremony for the anointing of the king involved being “begotten” as a son of God.

The average Jew of Jesus’ day, including the Pharisees (grass-roots leaders of synagogues) were sympathetic to the Jesus movement. Those who were not were the wealthy Sadducees - Roman collaborators. These were the henchmen for the cause of Rome, Paul included (a sort of chief of police acting on behalf of the high priest). These people (like Herod and Paul) were usually only part Israelite.

After Jesus was killed, there was tension between his successor and brother, James, and the other claimant to authority…a person who never actually met the historical Jesus and had only lived as a Jew for a few short years but who was a very well-read Roman citizen with prominent Herodian friends and relatives - Paul.

As the rightful heirs to the movement (James, Simeon, etc) were killed and forced into hiding (like the “seed of the woman” in Rev 12), the Roman version of events began scripting itself, mostly from Rome, with the help of Paul and his followers. The blame for the death of Jesus was placed craftily on the Jews, with outlandish statements such as “his blood be upon us and our children forever” being said to have been shouted by them as they demanded his death. The victors write the history. The remnant is nurtured in secret. That’s kind of how it goes, until that final day.

The struggle to maintain control over Palestine for the next several decades required Rome’s Jesus to say the craziest things: love your enemies, if a Roman soldier compels you to carry his pack for a mile go with him two, pay your taxes, etc. Oh yeah, and the Messiah was spiritual and not literal nor political. So calm down. Quit being zealous toward your God and His/Her Law - - it doesn’t matter anymore.

And the obvious conflict between James and Paul?

[Ymarsakar]

I never met 99% of these people or characters so i dont speak for them nor do i like trying to predict what they think. This is done too often for outin jeshua god and other dead people.

If you really want to know ask god to resurrect both of em and they will tell you.

If you want me to see what i can gleam using my spiritual gifts, i simply feel saul paul was addressing roman customs because the people asking for on the run from rome. So if i tell people not to go to j6 and protest and donald tells people to come to dc and protest, who is right and who is wrong? Are we enemies? Not enemies. We just have different intel and different tactics.

James had his flock. Saul could travel in roman territory because he was a citizen.

Given that the scriptures have been modified, i dont know how much, this is mostly academic. Just like j smith if u really want to know ask ur god. Not the bible. Not the bom. Not human authors.

If it is not written on stone or metal... assume satans have messed with it until proven otherwise by holy spirit.

Thr ancients often demanded too many signs from heaven due to lack of faith. But now i see a similar problem. Too much faith in man made his story , has made people ask too little of signs from god.

I consider saul s testimony to be legitimate. There are major problems with josephus and some of the other apostles however

Rome did not consolidate the nazarene faiths until constantine. Until then it was a ounishable by death offense to be in a cult not sanctioned by rome.

Co-opt as in: diverting and using for one’s own purposes, contrary to what was originally intended.

The Jesus movement would have been an Israelite Messianic, nationalist, anti-Roman one with John the Baptist as a preparer and purifier of the people (through the exercise of purity ritual) in anticipation of their needing the help of God and angels in order to throw off the iron yoke of the Romans and enjoy the rightful king of the line of David on the throne.

The Romans pursued every claimant to the throne of David and killed them, like the dragon of Revelation 12. Incidentally, the ceremony for the anointing of the king involved being “begotten” as a son of God.

The average Jew of Jesus’ day, including the Pharisees (grass-roots leaders of synagogues) were sympathetic to the Jesus movement. Those who were not were the wealthy Sadducees - Roman collaborators. These were the henchmen for the cause of Rome, Paul included (a sort of chief of police acting on behalf of the high priest). These people (like Herod and Paul) were usually only part Israelite.

After Jesus was killed, there was tension between his successor and brother, James, and the other claimant to authority…a person who never actually met the historical Jesus and had only lived as a Jew for a few short years but who was a very well-read Roman citizen with prominent Herodian friends and relatives - Paul.

As the rightful heirs to the movement (James, Simeon, etc) were killed and forced into hiding (like the “seed of the woman” in Rev 12), the Roman version of events began scripting itself, mostly from Rome, with the help of Paul and his followers. The blame for the death of Jesus was placed craftily on the Jews, with outlandish statements such as “his blood be upon us and our children forever” being said to have been shouted by them as they demanded his death. The victors write the history. The remnant is nurtured in secret. That’s kind of how it goes, until that final day.

The struggle to maintain control over Palestine for the next several decades required Rome’s Jesus to say the craziest things: love your enemies, if a Roman soldier compels you to carry his pack for a mile go with him two, pay your taxes, etc. Oh yeah, and the Messiah was spiritual and not literal nor political. So calm down. Quit being zealous toward your God and His/Her Law - - it doesn’t matter anymore.

And the obvious conflict between James and Paul?

[Thinker]

Personally, I’m working on figuring out when to defend truth & when to sit back & listen & give others the space & time to express ideas I disagree with but still respect their progress on their journey. Growing up & a lifetime of thinking, “there is only 1 way & all else is WRONG” takes some time & effort to overcome.

Good points.

When a person says "they have one way and all else doesn't work", that would be much more convincing to me if they were healers, miracle doers on par with Jeshua or beyond, and have obtained nirvana/enlightenment/samadi/satori and are just, you know, superhuman, peculiar, unusual, something something. Give me something of an example of what your "path" leads to, other than posting memes on a forum.

If you can't give me that.... well, it is quite obvious what "your way" has produced in fruit…

True! It takes a lot of faith to walk your own, not another’s path.

[Ymarsakar]

I did a lot of narrative analysis of the apocalypse using campell s hero with a thousand faces paradign on my substack. John did his life mission and he did it well.

Time for me to start the wheel rolling now.

Personally, I’m working on figuring out when to defend truth & when to sit back & listen & give others the space & time to express ideas I disagree with but still respect their progress on their journey. Growing up & a lifetime of thinking, “there is only 1 way & all else is WRONG” takes some time & effort to overcome.

Good points.

When a person says "they have one way and all else doesn't work", that would be much more convincing to me if they were healers, miracle doers on par with Jeshua or beyond, and have obtained nirvana/enlightenment/samadi/satori and are just, you know, superhuman, peculiar, unusual, something something. Give me something of an example of what your "path" leads to, other than posting memes on a forum.

If you can't give me that.... well, it is quite obvious what "your way" has produced in fruit…

True! It takes a lot of faith to walk your own, not another’s path.

[Cruiserdude]

Personally, I’m working on figuring out when to defend truth & when to sit back & listen & give others the space & time to express ideas I disagree with but still respect their progress on their journey. Growing up & a lifetime of thinking, “there is only 1 way & all else is WRONG” takes some time & effort to overcome.

Good points.

When a person says "they have one way and all else doesn't work", that would be much more convincing to me if they were healers, miracle doers on par with Jeshua or beyond, and have obtained nirvana/enlightenment/samadi/satori and are just, you know, superhuman, peculiar, unusual, something something. Give me something of an example of what your "path" leads to, other than posting memes on a forum.

If you can't give me that.... well, it is quite obvious what "your way" has produced in fruit…

True! It takes a lot of faith to walk your own, not another’s path.

I needed this today, Thinker. Thank you for posting it

[ithink]

Joseph said something similar. That if we were to glimpse the glory of the Celestial realms that we would willingly give up our lives to pass beyond the veil. There are many reasons for a veil, one of them is to keep us here in mortality and stave off the desire to return to our “real” home.

That's not my point and I do not agree with JS. Once having seen heaven, one simply feels confirmed to one's self what is essentially already known. There is no desire whatsoever to "leave here and go there" after having seen it because given that perspective, one's appreciation of God's creation right here right now is only augmented, not diminished at all. There is absolutely no desire to abandon this life and get to the next. What a foolish and silly proposition IMHO. It's ridiculous and it makes me wonder if he knew what he was talking about. Finally, there is no guarantee having seen it, one will inherit it. That is the problem. There is nothing sure about "getting to heaven".

Furthermore, without having seen hell itself, there is no understanding it. My worry is too many folk (myself included) think they are heading for the realms on high, but will find themselves in a dark and lonely place if they are not actually as lightweight, fair, and care free as a child.

I actually agree with the idea. It seems to be a pattern as well. When I first began my awakening to the awful situation within the church, and was shown greater light, I could never look back at the church and feel the same way again. In some small sense, trying to fit my personal theology back into the LDS box would be hell. I would do anything to break free of the LDS confines/construct.

I find it “foolish” to think that this reality is anything but a fallen world. And to the inverse, that heaven is so far ascended as to be nearly incomprehensible to the human sensibility, and to even breach even the furthest outer realms would be beyond our comprehension of love and joy.

In reality, this is similar to a drug addict. When people to Meth, it is a common side effect that nothing else can replace that joy (high) from doing such a drug. It takes them a very long time, if ever, to find meaning and joy in life again.

Heaven was easy to understand and needs no description. Any you or I would give it would be accurate.

Hell, however, as I have said many times before according to my experience, is darker and lonelier than any imagination could ever conjure up.

[Reluctant Watchman]

That's not my point and I do not agree with JS. Once having seen heaven, one simply feels confirmed to one's self what is essentially already known. There is no desire whatsoever to "leave here and go there" after having seen it because given that perspective, one's appreciation of God's creation right here right now is only augmented, not diminished at all. There is absolutely no desire to abandon this life and get to the next. What a foolish and silly proposition IMHO. It's ridiculous and it makes me wonder if he knew what he was talking about. Finally, there is no guarantee having seen it, one will inherit it. That is the problem. There is nothing sure about "getting to heaven".

Furthermore, without having seen hell itself, there is no understanding it. My worry is too many folk (myself included) think they are heading for the realms on high, but will find themselves in a dark and lonely place if they are not actually as lightweight, fair, and care free as a child.

I actually agree with the idea. It seems to be a pattern as well. When I first began my awakening to the awful situation within the church, and was shown greater light, I could never look back at the church and feel the same way again. In some small sense, trying to fit my personal theology back into the LDS box would be hell. I would do anything to break free of the LDS confines/construct.

I find it “foolish” to think that this reality is anything but a fallen world. And to the inverse, that heaven is so far ascended as to be nearly incomprehensible to the human sensibility, and to even breach even the furthest outer realms would be beyond our comprehension of love and joy.

In reality, this is similar to a drug addict. When people to Meth, it is a common side effect that nothing else can replace that joy (high) from doing such a drug. It takes them a very long time, if ever, to find meaning and joy in life again.

Heaven was easy to understand and needs no description. Any you or I would give it would be accurate.

Hell, however, as I have said many times before according to my experience, is darker and lonelier than any imagination could ever conjure up.

If hell is that dark, then heaven is infinitely more beautiful than we can imagine.

[Wolfwoman]

Somewhere in my perusal of NDE experiences (from a thread here on the forum) I ran across this experience from Vincent Tolman. I don’t know if I could recommend it more highly. It really had quite a profound impact in how I see and perceive things. He was raised LDS in Utah County btw.

I’d suggest listening to this condensed version first, and then watch the expanded version which fills in some important details.

Here’s the extended version w/ some beautiful details. I think this is a great companion experience to the one shared by Amy Call:

I don’t know what all the hundreds of comments here are about, but I just watched the video (the extended one) and thought it was very cool!

[Reluctant Watchman]

Here’s a wonderful new series of interviews with Vinny. I believe there are 4 parts.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Part 2:

[Reluctant Watchman]

Part 3:

[Reluctant Watchman]

Part 4:

[Reluctant Watchman]

New interview from Vinney. I quite enjoyed this. Not a lot of new info, but fun to hear the retelling:

[Reluctant Watchman]

BTW, I created this screensaver for my phone that quickly outlines the 10 principles that Vinney was taught. Feel free to download and use it. Oh, and I took the photo of the background with my drone.