Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

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Arm Chair Quarterback
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Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

No one ever mentions the doctrine that grew out of the Nauvoo polygamy debacle. No longer was it adultery. Instead, it was exaltation. It was a 180 degree flip. In the time of Christ, adultery could severely limit your salvation. But in Nauvoo adultery suddenly becomes the covenant path to exaltation. In fact, Joseph Smith made exaltation into the clarion call of the day. No longer was it about salvation (a Hebrew word that means liberty, deliverance, and freedom). My, what odd doctrines have to be invented in order to cover the sin of adultery. Exaltation became something you earned by your practice of polygamy. Does that not seem odd to anyone else but me?

Either Joseph practiced polygamy and lied about it in public---which brings to mind all the other religious leaders over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery--or he didn't practice polygamy. Which then brings all the other actors into the mix like Brigham Young and John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff and the list goes on--men who practiced polygamy like all the religious leader over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery. And the irony is that the Book of Mormon declares the practice abominable. The justifications and the twisting in the wind would be hilarious if they weren't so fundamentally fraudulent.

What no one ever stops to think about is that the pursuit of exaltation turns grace and christ and the cross and atonement on its head, the same way living the Law of Moses did in Ancient times.The Jews didn't need a Messiah. The law was their God. They could perfect themselves as long as they lived the law perfectly. In the restored church you really don't need Jesus. He's just a figurehead. The atonement is something that legitimizes the religion but really isn't that important because, hey, we save ourselves by our temple rites. What everyone in the restored church seeks is Exaltation. You don't need Jesus for that. He was all about that silly deliverance, freedom, and liberty he called salvation. In the restored church you just need a covenant path which includes polygamy. No need for a savior in that pathway when you can save yourself. Just get married. Multiple times. We don't really need Jesus in the restored Church. He's just cover for the real deal. Saving yourself through exalting temple rituals. The sad reality is that the doctrine of salvation through Christ is thrown out in favor of the doctrine of exaltation through ritual--something you can do for yourself, on your own, without any grace, or atoning sacrifice. And to think that this doctrinal temple fiasco was introduced to coerce women to commit adultery with church leaders on the promise of eternal exaltation, and then as an added bonus, commit the adulterers to total secrecy through death oaths. A two for one deal that hid the truth for far too long.

Does anyone not recognize the pattern here? Joseph Smith promises eternal blessing and rewards that just keep getting bigger and better until he comes up with this idea of exaltation. When your state in eternity is in question, people will do the darnedest things. Then, when it looks like the gig may be up, you double down by swearing people to secrecy with blood oaths. Not only will you lose your "exhalation", but you lose your life on earth. It's a no win situation for the member and a win win for the church leader. That pattern of promising eternal blessing which you never have to deliver on in this life is common practice for Jospeh Smith through out his entire career as a prophet. And ounce the narrative gets out of his control, regardless if its treasure hunting, golden plates, preisthood authority, or polygamy, you get rid of the naysayers and witnesses quickly, and double down with more authoritarian administration of exaltation. Its a coercive, troubling pattern that keeps repeating through the entirety of church history during the life of Joseph Smith and continued by his later follower-leaders.

If exaltation is the end-all, be-all of eternal progression and godliness why did Jesus only ever talk about salvation? He never mentions exalation until polygamy becomes a thing in Nauvoo---though the doctrine had its beginning in Kirtland about 1835 with the Fanny Alger mess. Adultery morphs into exaltation in 1835 Kirtland. Am I the only one who thinks that Jospeh Smith was forming doctrine based on need and circumstance rather than revelation?

What a mess.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Ymarsakar »

Humans and mortals don't understand what happened in the past nor do they understand how the rules of heaven are different to their human made rules and morality. Thus they create a mess, or perhaps this can be blamed on Satan's deceptions.

Do you understand that what you think of as "his story" is just Satan's story? Nothing you were ever taught by flawed mortals and the tools of satans were 100% true.

And this returns us back to the age old philosophical question. Is Knowledge a thing? Does Knowledge of truth actually exist within human grasp?

Yes, if they have a spiritual and emotional sense. No, if you are using your mind and hearsay data.

Godislove
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Godislove »

To be honest I didn't take time to read the whole post but I think people sometimes get caught up on things or principles they may not fully understand. There were men of God in the Bible with great faith with more than one wife so this was not a new thing with Joseph Smith. (Jacob, David, Solomon, Abraham for example)
Polygamy when practiced righteously and under Gods authorization and adultery are not even close to the same thing.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Ymarsakar »

The State thinks monogamy is good and the State will get what the State says. If you contest it, you will be exterminated.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Godislove wrote: June 1st, 2023, 5:33 pm To be honest I didn't take time to read the whole post but I think people sometimes get caught up on things or principles they may not fully understand. There were men of God in the Bible with great faith with more than one wife so this was not a new thing with Joseph Smith. (Jacob, David, Solomon, Abraham for example)
Polygamy when practiced righteously and under Gods authorization and adultery are not even close to the same thing.
The only problem with that view is the book of
Mormon names those men of faith as having practiced an abominable practice.

I have a real hard time with the “we don’t understand” argument. That’s been a ploy of religionists through the ages. The doctrine is above your pay grade. So just go along. Jesus simplified things instead of complicating them. He was about the only religion leader to do that. All the others gloried in making things so complex they made themselves indispensable for interpretation purposes. spiritual job security.

I’m not buying the “some things we don’t understand” doctrine. It runs counter to the loving god doctrine or the god as our father teacher doctrine.

Arm Chair Quarterback
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Arm Chair Quarterback »

Jesus himself, the being whose church and religious practices Jospeh claimed
to restore, spoke adamantly against adultery. And the original apostles, whose charge to keep the church of Christ in order which Joseph claimed to have restored, spoke adamantly and repeatedly that any leader of the church of Christ must be monogamous.

Good & Global
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Good & Global »

what is exaltation? You may ask this question as we no longer teach it or emphasize it?

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/arc ... s_doctrine
See also current church statements. Kolob is out the window too.

Guess the members misinterpreted what the prophets actually said.

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FrankOne
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by FrankOne »

Ymarsakar wrote: June 1st, 2023, 5:28 pm Humans and mortals don't understand what happened in the past nor do they understand how the rules of heaven are different to their human made rules and morality. Thus they create a mess, or perhaps this can be blamed on Satan's deceptions. (accepting satan's deception)

Do you understand that what you think of as "his story" is just Satan's story? Nothing you were ever taught by flawed mortals and the tools of satans were 100% true.

And this returns us back to the age old philosophical question. Is Knowledge a thing? Does Knowledge of truth actually exist within human grasp?

Yes, if they have a spiritual and emotional sense. No, if you are using your mind and hearsay data.

ditto with one addition I made in bold.

wasn't it said somewhere "i'm just doing what has been done on other planets".

Alternative response: "yah, you're right, but I need to make you look evil in order to reinforce the split and polarized mind of humans so they can receive the experience they asked for"

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The Red Pill
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by The Red Pill »

Image
Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 1st, 2023, 5:10 pm No one ever mentions the doctrine that grew out of the Nauvoo polygamy debacle. No longer was it adultery. Instead, it was exaltation. It was a 180 degree flip. In the time of Christ, adultery could severely limit your salvation. But in Nauvoo adultery suddenly becomes the covenant path to exaltation. In fact, Joseph Smith made exaltation into the clarion call of the day. No longer was it about salvation (a Hebrew word that means liberty, deliverance, and freedom). My, what odd doctrines have to be invented in order to cover the sin of adultery. Exaltation became something you earned by your practice of polygamy. Does that not seem odd to anyone else but me?

Either Joseph practiced polygamy and lied about it in public---which brings to mind all the other religious leaders over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery--or he didn't practice polygamy. Which then brings all the other actors into the mix like Brigham Young and John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff and the list goes on--men who practiced polygamy like all the religious leader over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery. And the irony is that the Book of Mormon declares the practice abominable. The justifications and the twisting in the wind would be hilarious if they weren't so fundamentally fraudulent.

What no one ever stops to think about is that the pursuit of exaltation turns grace and christ and the cross and atonement on its head, the same way living the Law of Moses did in Ancient times.The Jews didn't need a Messiah. The law was their God. They could perfect themselves as long as they lived the law perfectly. In the restored church you really don't need Jesus. He's just a figurehead. The atonement is something that legitimizes the religion but really isn't that important because, hey, we save ourselves by our temple rites. What everyone in the restored church seeks is Exaltation. You don't need Jesus for that. He was all about that silly deliverance, freedom, and liberty he called salvation. In the restored church you just need a covenant path which includes polygamy. No need for a savior in that pathway when you can save yourself. Just get married. Multiple times. We don't really need Jesus in the restored Church. He's just cover for the real deal. Saving yourself through exalting temple rituals. The sad reality is that the doctrine of salvation through Christ is thrown out in favor of the doctrine of exaltation through ritual--something you can do for yourself, on your own, without any grace, or atoning sacrifice. And to think that this doctrinal temple fiasco was introduced to coerce women to commit adultery with church leaders on the promise of eternal exaltation, and then as an added bonus, commit the adulterers to total secrecy through death oaths. A two for one deal that hid the truth for far too long.

Does anyone not recognize the pattern here? Joseph Smith promises eternal blessing and rewards that just keep getting bigger and better until he comes up with this idea of exaltation. When your state in eternity is in question, people will do the darnedest things. Then, when it looks like the gig may be up, you double down by swearing people to secrecy with blood oaths. Not only will you lose your "exhalation", but you lose your life on earth. It's a no win situation for the member and a win win for the church leader. That pattern of promising eternal blessing which you never have to deliver on in this life is common practice for Jospeh Smith through out his entire career as a prophet. And ounce the narrative gets out of his control, regardless if its treasure hunting, golden plates, preisthood authority, or polygamy, you get rid of the naysayers and witnesses quickly, and double down with more authoritarian administration of exaltation. Its a coercive, troubling pattern that keeps repeating through the entirety of church history during the life of Joseph Smith and continued by his later follower-leaders.

If exaltation is the end-all, be-all of eternal progression and godliness why did Jesus only ever talk about salvation? He never mentions exalation until polygamy becomes a thing in Nauvoo---though the doctrine had its beginning in Kirtland about 1835 with the Fanny Alger mess. Adultery morphs into exaltation in 1835 Kirtland. Am I the only one who thinks that Jospeh Smith was forming doctrine based on need and circumstance rather than revelation?

What a mess.
If you're up for some deep-dive research...may I suggest an excellent three volume set of books entitled "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy". It will answer your question about where Polygamy started and how it crept into the church. Spoiler alert...Brigham started it along with some rogue apostles.

But don't take my word for it...read through the excellent well documented research for yourself.

Some on this forum would rather bicker than read...and I am not putting you in that category by any means. I just know it is hard to break through the cognitive dissonance that keeps us all from the truth...but in the end...I would rather have my grand illusions shattered by truth...than blissfully believing deceit and lies.
Last edited by The Red Pill on June 1st, 2023, 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IcedKoffee
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by IcedKoffee »

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 1st, 2023, 5:10 pm No one ever mentions the doctrine that grew out of the Nauvoo polygamy debacle. No longer was it adultery. Instead, it was exaltation. It was a 180 degree flip. In the time of Christ, adultery could severely limit your salvation. But in Nauvoo adultery suddenly becomes the covenant path to exaltation. In fact, Joseph Smith made exaltation into the clarion call of the day. No longer was it about salvation (a Hebrew word that means liberty, deliverance, and freedom). My, what odd doctrines have to be invented in order to cover the sin of adultery. Exaltation became something you earned by your practice of polygamy. Does that not seem odd to anyone else but me?

Either Joseph practiced polygamy and lied about it in public---which brings to mind all the other religious leaders over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery--or he didn't practice polygamy. Which then brings all the other actors into the mix like Brigham Young and John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff and the list goes on--men who practiced polygamy like all the religious leader over the centuries who invoked revelation from God to justify their sexual perversions and adultery. And the irony is that the Book of Mormon declares the practice abominable. The justifications and the twisting in the wind would be hilarious if they weren't so fundamentally fraudulent.

What no one ever stops to think about is that the pursuit of exaltation turns grace and christ and the cross and atonement on its head, the same way living the Law of Moses did in Ancient times.The Jews didn't need a Messiah. The law was their God. They could perfect themselves as long as they lived the law perfectly. In the restored church you really don't need Jesus. He's just a figurehead. The atonement is something that legitimizes the religion but really isn't that important because, hey, we save ourselves by our temple rites. What everyone in the restored church seeks is Exaltation. You don't need Jesus for that. He was all about that silly deliverance, freedom, and liberty he called salvation. In the restored church you just need a covenant path which includes polygamy. No need for a savior in that pathway when you can save yourself. Just get married. Multiple times. We don't really need Jesus in the restored Church. He's just cover for the real deal. Saving yourself through exalting temple rituals. The sad reality is that the doctrine of salvation through Christ is thrown out in favor of the doctrine of exaltation through ritual--something you can do for yourself, on your own, without any grace, or atoning sacrifice. And to think that this doctrinal temple fiasco was introduced to coerce women to commit adultery with church leaders on the promise of eternal exaltation, and then as an added bonus, commit the adulterers to total secrecy through death oaths. A two for one deal that hid the truth for far too long.

Does anyone not recognize the pattern here? Joseph Smith promises eternal blessing and rewards that just keep getting bigger and better until he comes up with this idea of exaltation. When your state in eternity is in question, people will do the darnedest things. Then, when it looks like the gig may be up, you double down by swearing people to secrecy with blood oaths. Not only will you lose your "exhalation", but you lose your life on earth. It's a no win situation for the member and a win win for the church leader. That pattern of promising eternal blessing which you never have to deliver on in this life is common practice for Jospeh Smith through out his entire career as a prophet. And ounce the narrative gets out of his control, regardless if its treasure hunting, golden plates, preisthood authority, or polygamy, you get rid of the naysayers and witnesses quickly, and double down with more authoritarian administration of exaltation. Its a coercive, troubling pattern that keeps repeating through the entirety of church history during the life of Joseph Smith and continued by his later follower-leaders.

If exaltation is the end-all, be-all of eternal progression and godliness why did Jesus only ever talk about salvation? He never mentions exalation until polygamy becomes a thing in Nauvoo---though the doctrine had its beginning in Kirtland about 1835 with the Fanny Alger mess. Adultery morphs into exaltation in 1835 Kirtland. Am I the only one who thinks that Jospeh Smith was forming doctrine based on need and circumstance rather than revelation?

What a mess.
“Am I the only one who thinks that Jospeh Smith was forming doctrine based on need and circumstance rather than revelation?

No, you’re not!

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Chip
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Chip »

Nobody knows...

1 Corinthians 2:9

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."

Godislove
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Godislove »

Here's what the Book of Mormon actually really teaches about polygamy.

Jacob 2:30
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... t-polygamy

Polygamy is not abominable nor is it adultery when authorized by God.

Good & Global
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Good & Global »

Priestcraft is not abominable when authorized by God.

Surely they can't all be authorized.

This is sounding more like a line for excusing things as people say okay if God says so but did he really?

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FrankOne
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by FrankOne »

Ymarsakar wrote: June 1st, 2023, 5:45 pm The State thinks monogamy is good and the State will get what the State says. If you contest it, you will be exterminated.
hahah . so true

small , tight knit family = threat to state
large, tight knit polygamous family = big threat to state

why? Unity instills fear in the one that lives to divide.

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FrankOne
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by FrankOne »

Good & Global wrote: June 1st, 2023, 7:45 pm Priestcraft is not abominable when authorized by God.

Surely they can't all be authorized.

This is sounding more like a line for excusing things as people say okay if God says so but did he really?
murder gets you a one way ticket to hell......unless it's for "God". right?
polygamy was acceptable by 'God' and now... .... 'God' condemns you to hell for blasphemous adultery!

blah de blah blah. There's no sense in it because there is no sense in it. Step far enough back and it's all a theater stage with everyone holding paper swords while Oz stands behind a curtain telling the actors "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

again, lucky we're all immortals or this wouldn't be funny.

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Chip
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Chip »

Godislove wrote: June 1st, 2023, 7:40 pm Here's what the Book of Mormon actually really teaches about polygamy.

Jacob 2:30
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... t-polygamy

Polygamy is not abominable nor is it adultery when authorized by God.

That that verse has to do with allowing polygamy was not an idea any of us would have come up with. It is a deliberate misinterpretation of scripture made by those who were trying to legitamize polygamy. Horrible abuse of the Book of Mormon there.

Read this so you may understand:
Wresting_Jacob2.rtf
(19.13 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

onefour1
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by onefour1 »

Abraham practiced polygamy and was seen in the Celestial Kingdom by Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 137:4-5
4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

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Original_Intent
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Original_Intent »

So here's a new thought that I just had this very moment.

The Adam and Eve story is really our own premortal existence.

We could freely partake of the Tree of Life, which is partaking of God's Love. And some within the Word maybe had this idea of Life is Good, but would we really BE good if God wasn't around, or are we simply good BECAUSE Father is around?

And Father was like "Kiddos, this is the knowledge of good and evil and don't partake of that fruit, but, hey, you got agency, but remember that I forbid it or you will have to be separated from me, suffer, and eventually die. (mortality)

And then this sly spirit was like "Dudes, we are co-eternal with Father, we CAN'T DIE, and we can either just continue on as we always have, or we can get this party started and check out some new stuff!" and some of us wer like yeah! and there were some that rebelled and got booted, but there were others that were like "We really want to see what we are made of and try out this mortality and be tested. And Father was like "As you wish" which as we know from the Princess Bride is really "I love you."

So I don't agree that we are the third part that followed the serpent and got booted, but we are the part that shouted for joy that there was a p[lan that we could go play in the mud, and there would be a way that we could get all cleaned from the mud we were going to get into. Now I agree with Thinker, I don't think that we would be shouting for joy that our older brother who we all thought and knew was the most awesome was going to come and be slaughtered for us. I think He provided the path, and is our Savior, but it wasn't on the cross. And I know, I know, throw me into Outer Darkness or at least the heretic's sub, I deserve it. And I honestly haven't worked out how I really feel about this. I've had the blood atonement force fed to me for almost 60 years, and God forgive me if I am wrong in musings. I just don't feel right about scapegoating Jesus and shouting for joy about it.

Back to us and Adam and Eve - when we are born into mortality, that's us getting kicked out of the garden of Eden. Since I am hypothesizing like a drunk sailor (I am neither) maybe there are angels that chose never to leave the garden and they are fine with just partaking of the tree of life, and then there are other "post mortal" angels like Moroni for instance that have experienced mortality. idk.

So what do you think of my stream of consciousness post? Any merit?

Godislove
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Godislove »

Chip wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:07 pm
Godislove wrote: June 1st, 2023, 7:40 pm Here's what the Book of Mormon actually really teaches about polygamy.

Jacob 2:30
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... t-polygamy

Polygamy is not abominable nor is it adultery when authorized by God.

That that verse has to do with allowing polygamy was not an idea any of us would have come up with. It is a deliberate misinterpretation of scripture made by those who were trying to legitamize polygamy. Horrible abuse of the Book of Mormon there.

Read this so you may understand:

Wresting_Jacob2.rtf
No not at all and to me it is very clear what this talking about, especially when you read through verses 27-30.
I already understand but thanks anyways. :)

Good & Global
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Good & Global »

onefour1 wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:20 pm Abraham practiced polygamy and was seen in the Celestial Kingdom by Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 137:4-5
4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
Joseph Smith also in this same passage saw Alvin in this same celestial kingdom that he saw Abraham practicing polygamy.
Ok so it must be true it's right there in the scriptures!

Trouble is, Alvin an adult male was the age of 27 when he died never having been baptized nor was baptisms for the dead performed for him prior to this when this revelation was received.

Look up the chronology it doesn't make sense. Maybe we chalk this up to the Book of Abraham being written by his "own hand in papyrus" but yet needed to be called inspired not literal writings of Abraham in 2013 Gospel Topic Essays.

Good & Global
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Good & Global »

Godislove wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:23 pm
No not at all and to me it is very clear what this talking about, especially when you read through verses 27-30.
I already understand but thanks anyways. :)
For being the most correct book on earth and written specifically for our day, you would think they would have squeezed the word "Unauthorized" in there since the literal scriptures in Jacob says nothing of the sort of there being any authorized polygamy. It is all an abomination if you read the actual text and removed the chapter headings that lead you to that thinking.

It is only the Book of Mormon chapter headings that mentions this idea which was a 20th century addition added by a Church correlation committee.

Please see original 1830 Book of Mormon: (Look up Jacob 2 - no chapter headings)
Actual text no allusions to authorized plainly says Abraham and David polygamy = abomination, have one wife, no concubines

https://archive.org/details/book-of-mor ... 6/mode/2up
Last edited by Good & Global on June 1st, 2023, 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Godislove
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Godislove »

Good & Global wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:31 pm
Godislove wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:23 pm
Chip wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:07 pm


That that verse has to do with allowing polygamy was not an idea any of us would have come up with. It is a deliberate misinterpretation of scripture made by those who were trying to legitamize polygamy. Horrible abuse of the Book of Mormon there.

Read this so you may understand:

Wresting_Jacob2.rtf
No not at all and to me it is very clear what this talking about, especially when you read through verses 27-30.
I already understand but thanks anyways. :)
For being the most correct book on earth and written specifically for our day, you would think they would have squeezed the word "Unauthorized" in there since the literal scriptures in Jacob says nothing of the sort of there being any authorized polygamy. It is all an abomination if you read the actual text and removed the chapter headings that lead you to that thinking.

It is only the Book of Mormon chapter headings that mentions this idea which was a 20th century addition added by a Church correlation committee.
Yup, most correct book. And again here's what the Lord says in Jacob 2:30 after speaking of having one wife.

"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"

As for me, I will take the Lord at his word whether or not anyone else agrees. :)

Good & Global
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by Good & Global »

It is not the Lord's word it is modern LDS apologist version of his word.

Scripture is literally saying need to keep commandments by not committing the abominable sin of polygamy.
To do this - they need to be married to one wife or it is an abomination. By one wife is how He will raise up seed.
This is why it says "Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old." verse 26

What did they do of old? (verse 24 which came before that one)

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

Even in verse 23, it says they who try these "whoredoms" by following after David and his Son are what?
TRYING TO EXCUSE THEMSELVES.

Forget the whole apologist view: that we did polygamy to raise a righteous generation. This is what missionaries are told to tell people. Polygamy was practiced by really only top leadership or less than 10% of the church leaders.

There was a surplus of many righteous LDS men but not enough woman to go around. This is why we hear the humorous quote that early priesthood holders got mad saying Save the pretty ones for when we get there. As all the pretty ones were being taken by opportunists. Culminating in long after the exodus, Lorenzo Snow (55M) marrying 15 year old girl, Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen, in 1871 and consumating the marriage. He had 10 wives already at time of this 15 year old. This was not normal. It was an abomination.

onefour1
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

Post by onefour1 »

Good & Global wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:28 pm
onefour1 wrote: June 1st, 2023, 8:20 pm Abraham practiced polygamy and was seen in the Celestial Kingdom by Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 137:4-5
4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
Joseph Smith also in this same passage saw Alvin in this same celestial kingdom that he saw Abraham practicing polygamy.
Ok so it must be true it's right there in the scriptures!

Trouble is, Alvin an adult male was the age of 27 when he died never having been baptized nor was baptisms for the dead performed for him prior to this when this revelation was received.

Look up the chronology it doesn't make sense. Maybe we chalk this up to the Book of Abraham being written by his "own hand in papyrus" but yet needed to be called inspired not literal writings of Abraham in 2013 Gospel Topic Essays.
Yes, at the time the saving works for Alvin had not yet been done. I wonder if the vision given in sec. 137 is not a vision of the future. It is interesting to read the language the Lord uses in that section:

Doctrine and Covenants 137:7-9
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

The phrase "shall be" is used. So I wonder if this was a vision of the future after Alvin was to receive his saving ordinances. Below is some history regarding Alvin according to Joseph Smith:

From the Life of Joseph Smith
Early in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s ministry, he had an experience that would help to prepare him for the time when the doctrine of salvation for the dead would be revealed. In November 1823, Alvin Smith, the oldest child of Lucy Mack Smith and Joseph Smith Sr., suddenly became seriously ill and lay near death. Alvin was 25 years old, a strong and capable young man whose hard work contributed greatly to the family’s financial stability. His mother described him as “a youth of singular goodness of disposition,” whose “nobleness and generosity” blessed those around him “every hour of his existence.”1

Knowing he was dying, Alvin called his brothers and sisters to him and spoke to each of them. To Joseph, who was almost 18 years old and had not yet received the gold plates, Alvin said, “I want you to be a good boy and do everything that lies in your power to obtain the records. Be faithful in receiving instruction and keeping every commandment that is given you. Your brother Alvin must now leave you, but remember the example which he has set for you, and set a good example for the children that are younger than you.”2

When Alvin died, the family asked a Presbyterian minister in Palmyra, New York, to officiate at his funeral. As Alvin had not been a member of the minister’s congregation, the clergyman asserted in his sermon that Alvin could not be saved. William Smith, Joseph’s younger brother, recalled: “[The minister] … intimated very strongly that [Alvin] had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member, but he was a good boy and my father did not like it.”3

In January 1836, many years after Alvin’s death, Joseph Smith received a vision of the celestial kingdom, in which he saw that Alvin, as well as his mother and father, would someday inherit that kingdom. Joseph “marveled how it was that [Alvin] had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins” (D&C 137:6). The voice of the Lord then came to Joseph, declaring:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7–9).

On August 15, 1840, the Prophet Joseph Smith preached at a funeral in Nauvoo and, for the first time in public, taught the doctrine of salvation for the dead. According to Simon Baker, who was present, the Prophet began by testifying that the “gospel of Jesus Christ brought glad tidings of great joy.” He read most of 1 Corinthians 15 and explained that “the Apostle was talking to a people who understood baptism for the dead, for it was practiced among them.” He then declared that “people could now act for their friends who had departed this life, and that the plan of salvation was calculated to save all who were willing to obey the requirements of the law of God.”4

One month after the funeral address, the Prophet visited his father, who was very ill and near death. The Prophet discussed with his father the doctrine of baptism for the dead, and Father Smith’s thoughts turned to his beloved son Alvin. Father Smith asked that the work be done for Alvin “immediately.” Just minutes before he died, he declared that he saw Alvin.5 In the latter part of 1840, the Smith family rejoiced as Hyrum received the ordinance of baptism for his brother Alvin.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Is Exaltation Really A Thing?

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Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: June 1st, 2023, 6:00 pm Jesus himself, the being whose church and religious practices Jospeh claimed
to restore, spoke adamantly against adultery. And the original apostles, whose charge to keep the church of Christ in order which Joseph claimed to have restored, spoke adamantly and repeatedly that any leader of the church of Christ must be monogamous.
Polygamy != Adultery.

The lawgiver himself thru whom it was revealed not to commit adultery, had multiple wives. And literally in the very next chapter of the Torah, there are provisions and laws made for those who had more than one wife. Clearly this was NOT seen as adultery.

Polygamy had its very specific conditions, and they were laid out in the Bible and Book of Mormon alike.

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