Jesus Christ and animals

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BuriedTartaria
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Jesus Christ and animals

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article wrote: At key moments in the Gospels, Jesus dwells among animals as a sign of humility and of connectedness with God’s creation. He is born in a stable and sleeps in a feeding trough (Luke 2:7). At the start of his ministry, he goes out into the wilderness, staying among the wild beasts (Mark 1:13). He compares the lives of animals to his own itinerant life (Luke 9:58). At the end of his ministry, Jesus enters into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey (Mark 11:1-10). When “the Passover lambs were being killed” (Mark 14:12, CEV), he shares a Passover meal with his disciples. Jesus ultimately becomes “The Lamb of God,” giving up his own body for the redemption of creation.
https://bibleresources.americanbible.or ... nd-animals

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*fights back tears*

Christ just understands and loves existence and creation. Animals know and listen to their maker. Truly Christ is the master teacher

Bronco73idi
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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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BuriedTartaria wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:02 am
article wrote: At key moments in the Gospels, Jesus dwells among animals as a sign of humility and of connectedness with God’s creation. He is born in a stable and sleeps in a feeding trough (Luke 2:7). At the start of his ministry, he goes out into the wilderness, staying among the wild beasts (Mark 1:13). He compares the lives of animals to his own itinerant life (Luke 9:58). At the end of his ministry, Jesus enters into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey (Mark 11:1-10). When “the Passover lambs were being killed” (Mark 14:12, CEV), he shares a Passover meal with his disciples. Jesus ultimately becomes “The Lamb of God,” giving up his own body for the redemption of creation.
https://bibleresources.americanbible.or ... nd-animals

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*fights back tears*

Christ just understands and loves existence and creation. Animals know and listen to their maker. Truly Christ is the master teacher
Reading Abraham 3 we find that if there are 2 intelligences, 1 is above the other. That goes for animals too.

People don’t want to acknowledge that animals are intelligences with a soul. Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.

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Wolfwoman
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In Sunday school this past Sunday, the teacher pointed out that the donkey/colt that the Lord rode into Jerusalem had not been “broken” yet. We talked about how for most people it would have been difficult or impossible to ride a donkey or mule that had not been broken yet. Yet the colt allowed him to ride on his back and apparently had no problem with it. 🙂

“ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.”

JuneBug12000
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Wolfwoman wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:22 am In Sunday school this past Sunday, the teacher pointed out that the donkey/colt that the Lord rode into Jerusalem had not been “broken” yet. We talked about how for most people it would have been difficult or impossible to ride a donkey or mule that had not been broken yet. Yet the colt allowed him to ride on his back and apparently had no problem with it. 🙂

“ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.”
Are we in the same ward? What are the chances we discussed the same thing. :o :D

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BuriedTartaria
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Interesting nugget from the Book of Mormon. When Amulek takes Alma in and feeds him, the Book of Mormon declares that Amulek provided bread and meat to Alma. The Book of Mormon then explicitly states that Alma ate just the bread (and maybe the reason for that is Alma wanted it to go to Almulek's family):
Alma 8 wrote: 21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he ablessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.
Just as it's wrong to forbid people from eating meat, I think it's wrong to mock or forbid someone to abstain from it. I think we're all on an individual path to connect with God and for me that has caused me to focus a lot on the concept of God's Mount being a place where they do not hurt nor destroy. I'd like to understand a people that are that way and are gathered by God. I hurt humans with my words and I hurt humans with body language and lack of patience and imperfection. I also play a role in feeding probably unethical dominion of humans over animals if I don't at least attempt to eat meat sparingly and I'm mostly careless to what harm or pain I cause insects and similar life forms. I would like to be led to growth that causes me to decrease the amount of harm and destruction I add to life forms.


Some Nephites fought and some fought for those who made a vow to not fight, and that was a good thing, a needed thing. Some people chose to not fight and let themselves be acted upon by others, causing them to die. Those actions helped people convert to Christ. Maybe there are different role different kinds of people play and while the roles are different, they're all still good.

Bronco73idi wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:21 am Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.
Yeah, well said. I don't advocate hardcore veganism at all (I think personally life might take me there but that's a me thing, not a law). But I think striving to live up to the calling Adam was given (dominion over God's creations on earth), why don't we rise to the challenge (as Adam's prosperity) and exercise righteous dominion over God's creations?

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cyclOps
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BuriedTartaria wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:31 am Interesting nugget from the Book of Mormon. When Amulek takes Alma in and feeds him, the Book of Mormon declares that Amulek provided bread and meat to Alma. The Book of Mormon then explicitly states that Alma ate just the bread (and maybe the reason for that is Alma wanted it to go to Almulek's family):
Alma 8 wrote: 21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he ablessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.
Just as it's wrong to forbid people from eating meat, I think it's wrong to mock or forbid someone to abstain from it. I think we're all on an individual path to connect with God and for me that has caused me to focus a lot on the concept of God's Mount being a place where they do not hurt nor destroy. I'd like to understand a people that are that way and are gathered by God. I hurt humans with my words and I hurt humans with body language and lack of patience and imperfection. I also play a role in feeding probably unethical dominion of humans over animals if I don't at least attempt to eat meat sparingly and I'm mostly careless to what harm or pain I cause insects and similar life forms. I would like to be led to growth that causes me to decrease the amount of harm and destruction I add to life forms.


Some Nephites fought and some fought for those who made a vow to not fight, and that was a good thing, a needed thing. Some people chose to not fight and let themselves be acted upon by others, causing them to die. Those actions helped people convert to Christ. Maybe there are different role different kinds of people play and while the roles are different, they're all still good.

Bronco73idi wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:21 am Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.
Yeah, well said. I don't advocate hardcore veganism at all (I think personally life might take me there but that's a me thing, not a law). But I think striving to live up to the calling Adam was given (dominion over God's creations on earth), why don't we rise to the challenge (as Adam's prosperity) and exercise righteous dominion over God's creations?
When it says bread and meat it’s almost surely not meaning bread and meat as we use the words today. We think of bread as a loaf of bread and meat as animal flesh. In scripture, meat almost always means any food in general. Bread and meat used together likely represents a complete meal, and together they are also used to mean “a meal honoring a guest”.

The Alma and Amulek scripture you quote probably means that Amulek set out a full course meal for Alma. Alma just eating the bread probably means he was full without eating all of course that Amulek had prepared and provided.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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BuriedTartaria wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:31 am Interesting nugget from the Book of Mormon. When Amulek takes Alma in and feeds him, the Book of Mormon declares that Amulek provided bread and meat to Alma. The Book of Mormon then explicitly states that Alma ate just the bread (and maybe the reason for that is Alma wanted it to go to Almulek's family):
Alma 8 wrote: 21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he ablessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.
Just as it's wrong to forbid people from eating meat, I think it's wrong to mock or forbid someone to abstain from it. I think we're all on an individual path to connect with God and for me that has caused me to focus a lot on the concept of God's Mount being a place where they do not hurt nor destroy. I'd like to understand a people that are that way and are gathered by God. I hurt humans with my words and I hurt humans with body language and lack of patience and imperfection. I also play a role in feeding probably unethical dominion of humans over animals if I don't at least attempt to eat meat sparingly and I'm mostly careless to what harm or pain I cause insects and similar life forms. I would like to be led to growth that causes me to decrease the amount of harm and destruction I add to life forms.


Some Nephites fought and some fought for those who made a vow to not fight, and that was a good thing, a needed thing. Some people chose to not fight and let themselves be acted upon by others, causing them to die. Those actions helped people convert to Christ. Maybe there are different role different kinds of people play and while the roles are different, they're all still good.

Bronco73idi wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:21 am Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.
Yeah, well said. I don't advocate hardcore veganism at all (I think personally life might take me there but that's a me thing, not a law). But I think striving to live up to the calling Adam was given (dominion over God's creations on earth), why don't we rise to the challenge (as Adam's prosperity) and exercise righteous dominion over God's creations?
I’ve noticed that bit about the bread and meat too. 🙂

I’ve been mostly vegetarian or vegan for most of my life. Vegan or 100% plant based is definitely harder than lacto-Ovo vegetarian just because our society is very animal-food centric. So eating out or eating with friends or family is harder if you don’t eat any animal foods at all. The world doesn’t seem ready for veganism. So I may just focus on being plant based and maybe having some small amounts of egg or dairy if I’m eating out or something. Although my body doesn’t even digest dairy very well anymore!
I agree with you about the eating meat sparingly part of the word of wisdom.

Hugh Nibley has a good essay on how we should exercise righteous dominion over the animals. You may enjoy reading that if you haven’t read it yet.

Edit to add: I forgot to say that yes, I don’t tell others that they shouldn’t eat meat and I don’t believe eating meat is a sin. I just know that for my conscience, I feel better not eating it. But I acknowledge that Jesus ate fish and drank wine. So it’s not a sin. But I believe in following my conscience, so that’s what I try to do.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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JuneBug12000 wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:30 am
Wolfwoman wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:22 am In Sunday school this past Sunday, the teacher pointed out that the donkey/colt that the Lord rode into Jerusalem had not been “broken” yet. We talked about how for most people it would have been difficult or impossible to ride a donkey or mule that had not been broken yet. Yet the colt allowed him to ride on his back and apparently had no problem with it. 🙂

“ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.”
Are we in the same ward? What are the chances we discussed the same thing. :o :D
Oh, I don’t know. Are you in Arizona?

If not, maybe it was in the lesson materials. Or there are quite a few come follow me podcasts out there. So maybe our teachers listened to the same podcast. 🙂

JuneBug12000
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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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Wolfwoman wrote: May 24th, 2023, 1:42 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:30 am
Wolfwoman wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:22 am In Sunday school this past Sunday, the teacher pointed out that the donkey/colt that the Lord rode into Jerusalem had not been “broken” yet. We talked about how for most people it would have been difficult or impossible to ride a donkey or mule that had not been broken yet. Yet the colt allowed him to ride on his back and apparently had no problem with it. 🙂

“ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.”
Are we in the same ward? What are the chances we discussed the same thing. :o :D
Oh, I don’t know. Are you in Arizona?

If not, maybe it was in the lesson materials. Or there are quite a few come follow me podcasts out there. So maybe our teachers listened to the same podcast. 🙂
No Idaho. And it drives me nuts that they teach from podcasts. Not the first time it's happened in our ward.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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Wolfwoman wrote: May 24th, 2023, 1:36 pm
Hugh Nibley has a good essay on how we should exercise righteous dominion over the animals. You may enjoy reading that if you haven’t read it yet.

I did not know that! I will check that out

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Niemand
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BuriedTartaria wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:31 am Interesting nugget from the Book of Mormon. When Amulek takes Alma in and feeds him, the Book of Mormon declares that Amulek provided bread and meat to Alma. The Book of Mormon then explicitly states that Alma ate just the bread (and maybe the reason for that is Alma wanted it to go to Almulek's family):
Alma 8 wrote: 21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he ablessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.
Just as it's wrong to forbid people from eating meat, I think it's wrong to mock or forbid someone to abstain from it. I think we're all on an individual path to connect with God and for me that has caused me to focus a lot on the concept of God's Mount being a place where they do not hurt nor destroy. I'd like to understand a people that are that way and are gathered by God. I hurt humans with my words and I hurt humans with body language and lack of patience and imperfection. I also play a role in feeding probably unethical dominion of humans over animals if I don't at least attempt to eat meat sparingly and I'm mostly careless to what harm or pain I cause insects and similar life forms. I would like to be led to growth that causes me to decrease the amount of harm and destruction I add to life forms.


Some Nephites fought and some fought for those who made a vow to not fight, and that was a good thing, a needed thing. Some people chose to not fight and let themselves be acted upon by others, causing them to die. Those actions helped people convert to Christ. Maybe there are different role different kinds of people play and while the roles are different, they're all still good.

Bronco73idi wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:21 am Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.
Yeah, well said. I don't advocate hardcore veganism at all (I think personally life might take me there but that's a me thing, not a law). But I think striving to live up to the calling Adam was given (dominion over God's creations on earth), why don't we rise to the challenge (as Adam's prosperity) and exercise righteous dominion over God's creations?
NB - meat in old usage just means food. "Flesh" is used in the KJV to refer to what we call meat today.

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Re: Jesus Christ and animals

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Bronco73idi wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:21 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: May 24th, 2023, 11:02 am
article wrote: At key moments in the Gospels, Jesus dwells among animals as a sign of humility and of connectedness with God’s creation. He is born in a stable and sleeps in a feeding trough (Luke 2:7). At the start of his ministry, he goes out into the wilderness, staying among the wild beasts (Mark 1:13). He compares the lives of animals to his own itinerant life (Luke 9:58). At the end of his ministry, Jesus enters into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey (Mark 11:1-10). When “the Passover lambs were being killed” (Mark 14:12, CEV), he shares a Passover meal with his disciples. Jesus ultimately becomes “The Lamb of God,” giving up his own body for the redemption of creation.
https://bibleresources.americanbible.or ... nd-animals

Image

Image

Image
Image
Image
*fights back tears*

Christ just understands and loves existence and creation. Animals know and listen to their maker. Truly Christ is the master teacher
Reading Abraham 3 we find that if there are 2 intelligences, 1 is above the other. That goes for animals too.

People don’t want to acknowledge that animals are intelligences with a soul. Then they have to acknowledge Critical Mammal Theory in the fact that we are better then them and thus are judged in our handling of their care.
"Critical Mammal Theory" ! :D

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Niemand
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p8riot wrote: May 25th, 2023, 8:18 am "Critical Mammal Theory" ! :D
I wouldn't laugh too hard. I first heard about the concept of "speciesism" thirty years ago. There are also people who want to give chimps human rights.

I can understand the argument of giving more intelligent animals rights like whales and apes, but full human rights? Despite their intelligence these animals can't do certain things humans can.

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Silver Pie
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Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2023, 2:28 pm I first heard about the concept of "speciesism" thirty years ago. There are also people who want to give chimps human rights.

I can understand the argument of giving more intelligent animals rights like whales and apes, but full human rights? Despite their intelligence these animals can't do certain things humans can.
Whoa! 😲 Humans get crazier all the time.

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Niemand
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Silver Pie wrote: May 28th, 2023, 5:47 pm
Niemand wrote: May 25th, 2023, 2:28 pm I first heard about the concept of "speciesism" thirty years ago. There are also people who want to give chimps human rights.

I can understand the argument of giving more intelligent animals rights like whales and apes, but full human rights? Despite their intelligence these animals can't do certain things humans can.
Whoa! 😲 Humans get crazier all the time.
There are certainly people out there who support human rights for the Great Apes, especially chimps due to genetic similarities. For them it would vindicate evolution but it is unclear how they could implement it because they cannot communicate on our level, despite any similarities.

But, I do agree on some level. I don't think the Great Apes should be hunted for food or abused. They can be incredibly strong and vicious but I do not think we need to have that type of interaction with them..

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Silver Pie
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Niemand wrote: May 29th, 2023, 1:59 am There are certainly people out there who support human rights for the Great Apes, especially chimps due to genetic similarities. For them it would vindicate evolution but it is unclear how they could implement it because they cannot communicate on our level, despite any similarities.

But, I do agree on some level. I don't think the Great Apes should be hunted for food or abused. They can be incredibly strong and vicious but I do not think we need to have that type of interaction with them..
I don't think any animal should be given human rights because, as you say, they aren't on the level to understand them. At the same time, I believe in giving respect to animals. I think primates should not be hunted for food. I think the food animals we do eat should be treated with respect while they're living (plenty of food, water, and space, for example) and should not be terrified while being slaughtered by being one of a hundred or a thousand in a line going into the chute and maybe they aren't completely dead when they get to the point where they're supposed to be cut into.

I also think something as intelligent as a dolphin should not be used for food. We should be friends with them. They can be great allies for people they trust/have no animosity towards.

My desire to respect animals and the earth has nothing to do with "saving the earth" stuff, and everything to do with my inherent "hippiness". Somewhere in my soul, I am either a hippie or an ancient American Indian.

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This was good to read. I have trouble with animals. I grew up with parents that just didn't care for them, we didn't have them around much, and today I still don't like to be around them. I believe strongly in respecting them and not wasting the flesh they provide us with, but no animal has ever been particularly trusting or obedient with me despite my own attempts to show patience and trust in them. Therefore, I tend to be short-tempered regarding animals. I'm the only person I know who doesn't like puppies!

I find chickens to be the easiest to deal with. As birds, I really don't expect them to think or feel or obey the way I expect a mammal to. Their care is relatively minimal, and they provide something precious. I find it easier to genuinely care for them, rather than merely going through the motions of sacrificing my time, comfort, and money to keep them healthy and fed.

Goats are a different story. I want to give them the space and time they need to come to trust me more, but that was my plan A and all that did was take me from "neutral" to "I hate you and want to eat you."

Then there are parasites and infectious agents.

Allison
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When I stopped eating animals about 25 years ago, my health continued to improve (had already been upgrading our diet for a couple of years before that) and our family’s fondness for animals increased noticeably. I do feel sad when it seems to be necessary to dispatch with some animals, such as the possum in our chicken coop, and spiders in the house. It's a dilemma, but I am not ready to cohabitate with the animal kingdom indoors, other than invited pets.

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Silver Pie
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Jamescm wrote: May 31st, 2023, 10:03 am Goats are a different story. I want to give them the space and time they need to come to trust me more, but that was my plan A and all that did was take me from "neutral" to "I hate you and want to eat you."
Goats are a pain in the butt at best, and evil at worst. And I'm someone animals usually like. Their milk is good as long as the bucket, etc is clean, they haven't eaten vile weeds, and are nowhere near a billy.

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Silver Pie wrote: June 1st, 2023, 1:41 pm
Jamescm wrote: May 31st, 2023, 10:03 am Goats are a different story. I want to give them the space and time they need to come to trust me more, but that was my plan A and all that did was take me from "neutral" to "I hate you and want to eat you."
Goats are a pain in the butt at best, and evil at worst. And I'm someone animals usually like. Their milk is good as long as the bucket, etc is clean, they haven't eaten vile weeds, and are nowhere near a billy.
How about sheep? Are they easier to work with?

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Silver Pie
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Allison wrote: June 1st, 2023, 3:02 pm How about sheep? Are they easier to work with?
I've had no experience with sheep, but they don't have the bad reputation goats have. I do know they lack the rebellious attitude, though.

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Niemand
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Silver Pie wrote: June 1st, 2023, 3:06 pm
Allison wrote: June 1st, 2023, 3:02 pm How about sheep? Are they easier to work with?
I've had no experience with sheep, but they don't have the bad reputation goats have. I do know they lack the rebellious attitude, though.
Kind of. I grew up with both, I admit a kind of fondness for the goats, because they often had a bit of personality to them... the sheep were more bland except the lambs. Very curious thing about sheep, they start off as agile delightful creatures but become old maids quite quickly. I could recognise all our goats quite easily by personality... the sheep less so. You could recognise some of the sheep by their faces but they were much of a muchness. I came to think of some of the goats as my friends in a way I would a cat or dog becauee of this.

However, sheep are as inclined to find a hole in the fence/wall and burst through it as goats.

The other thing about goats is that they eat a much broader diet.

Of course in the Middle East, sheep and goats are far more similar which is where Jesus' parable comes in. In our culture they are more differentiated.

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Silver Pie
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Niemand wrote: June 1st, 2023, 3:40 pm Kind of. I grew up with both, I admit a kind of fondness for the goats, because they often had a bit of personality to them... the sheep were more bland except the lambs. Very curious thing about sheep, they start off as agile delightful creatures but become old maids quite quickly. I could recognise all our goats quite easily by personality... the sheep less so. You could recognise some of the sheep by their faces but they were much of a muchness. I came to think of some of the goats as my friends in a way I would a cat or dog becauee of this.

However, sheep are as inclined to find a hole in the fence/wall and burst through it as goats.

The other thing about goats is that they eat a much broader diet.

Of course in the Middle East, sheep and goats are far more similar which is where Jesus' parable comes in. In our culture they are more differentiated.
Goats definitely have personalities, that's for sure.

Goats do their best to be escape artists. I didn't know sheep would also escape. We had a goat that died trying to get through a fence because his horns got stuck, and we weren't home in time to rescue him.

Goats are willing to eat a variety of food, but they are fussier than I had expected. I thought they'd eat anything, but they don't. Never saw a goat try to eat a label from a can, for example.

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