2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Image
The Vision of Judas Maccabeus

Intro
The Second Book of Maccabees is overshadowed by the first, and does not share the same level of either fame or respect. The book has also been the subject of great controversy in Protestantism (because it supports prayers for the dead) and for Mormonism, because of the appearance of the word "nephi" in it (in the King James Version)

The author appears to be unknown, but it was probably an Egyptian Jew based in Alexandria. The writing style indicates he was highly educated.

Name
This book is normally called 2 Maccabees, II Maccabees or Second Maccabees. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canon, there are three other books of Maccabees with varying relevance to the first one. There are also several Ethiopian books of Maccabees. The Jewish Encyclopedia claims that only the first is a reliable historical source.

The word "Maccabee" is believed to mean "hammer" since Judas/Judah and his family hammer the Greek pagans.

Wikipedia
According to Jewish folklore the name Maccabee is an acronym of the verse Mi kamokha ba'elim Adonai, "Who among the gods is like you, O Adonai?", the Maccabean battle-cry to motivate troops. (Exodus 15:11). Some scholars maintain that the name is a shortened form of the Hebrew maqqab-Yahu (from naqab, "to mark, to designate"), meaning "the one designated by Yahweh". Although originally the surname Maccabee was exclusive to Judah (his brothers had different surnames), at a later date it came to signify all the Hasmoneans who fought during the Maccabean Revolt.
Summary
The LDS Bible dictionary gives a good summary of the book:
The Second Book of the Maccabees. Deals with the history of the Jews during 15 years (175–160 [BC]) and therefore goes over part of the period described in 1 Maccabees. It is inferior to that book both in simplicity and in accuracy because legends are introduced with great freedom. However, the doctrine of the Resurrection is strongly affirmed.
Here is a more positive perspective
https://www.abibleaday.com/bible-books/2-maccabees/
Second Maccabees, another historical book, is not a continuation of First Maccabees, but more appropriately a companion piece, as its timeline mostly overlaps First Maccabees and provides additional details. Most importantly, Second Maccabees offers a different perspective of these events, showcasing signs, wonders, and miracles.

It also gives additional insight into what provoked the Maccabean rebellion and covers Judas Maccabeus and his recapture and rededication of the temple.
Unlike 1 Macc., 2 Macc. appears originally to have been written in Greek. Ironic given the context. It has been translated into Hebrew subsequently.

The work is not a sequel to 1 Maccabees but rather its own independent rendition of the historical events of the Maccabean Revolt. It both starts and ends its history earlier than 1 Maccabees, starting with an incident with the Seleucid official Heliodorus attempting to tax the Second Temple in 178 BC, and ending with the Battle of Adasa in 161 BC. Some scholars believe the book to be influenced by the Pharisaic tradition, with sections that include an endorsement of prayer for the dead and a resurrection of the dead.

2 Maccabees both starts and ends its history earlier than 1 Maccabees does, instead covering the period from the high priest Onias III and King Seleucus IV (180 BC) to the defeat of Nicanor in 161. The exact focus of the work is debated. All agree that the work has a moralistic tenor, showing the triumph of Judaism, the supremacy of God, and the just punishment of villains. Some see it as a paean to Judas Maccabeus personally, describing the background of the Revolt to write a biography praising him; some see its focus as the Second Temple, showing its gradual corruption by Antiochus IV and how it was saved and purified; others see the focus as the city of Jerusalem and how it was saved; and others disagree with all of the above, seeing it as written strictly for literary and entertainment value.


Because this is one of the longer books, again I will provide more context in the replies.

New Testament references
Hebrews 11:35 is understood by some as referring to an event that was recorded in 2 Maccabees. For instance, the author of Hebrews refers to an oral tradition which spoke of an Old Testament prophet who was sawn in half in Hebrews 11:37, two verses after the 2 Maccabees reference.

Nephi and plagiarism accusations
As with Judith, Joseph Smith has been accused of plagiarising this book. It is the one place in the scriptures that the name Nephi appears (since many Bibles used to contain it). 2 Maccabees 1:34-36 says:
Then the king, inclosing the place, made it holy, after he had tried the matter. And the king took many gifts, and bestowed thereof on those whom he would gratify. And Neemias called this thing Naphthar, which is as much as to say, A cleansing: but many men call it Nephi.
The "Nephi" mentioned appears to be something similar to the legendary Greek Fire, a substance that would combust and burst into flame in contact with oxygen.

Despite this, there are many other proposed etymologies for Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Hugh Nibley suggested "nabi" meaning a prophet.

Chronology
The author is interested in providing a theological interpretation of the events; in this book God's interventions direct the course of events, punishing the wicked and restoring the Temple to his people. Some events appear to be presented out of strict chronological order to make theological points, such as the occasional "flash forward" to a villain's later death. The numbers cited for sizes of armies may also appear exaggerated, though not all of the manuscripts of this book agree.

Structure
2 Maccabees consists of 15 chapters.

1:1–2:18: Two letters to the Jews of Egypt.
2:19–32: Epitomist's preface.
3: Heliodorus attempts to tax the Temple of Jerusalem's treasury, but is repelled. (~178 BC)
4: High Priest Onias III of the Temple of Jerusalem is succeeded by his brother Jason; Jason is then succeeded by the corrupt Menelaus; Onias III is murdered. (~175–170 BC)
5: Jason attempts to overthrow Menelaus. King Antiochus IV Epiphanes returns from the second expedition of the Sixth Syrian War in Egypt, defeats Jason's supporters, sacks Jerusalem, loots the Temple treasury, and kills and enslaves local Jews as retribution for the perceived revolt. Jason is forced into exile. (168 BC)
6: The Temple is converted into syncretic Greek-Jewish worship site. Antiochus IV issues decrees forbidding traditional Jewish practices, such as circumcision, keeping kosher, and keeping the Sabbath. Eleazar the scribe is tortured and killed after refusing to eat pork. (168–167 BC)
7: Martyrdom of the woman and her seven sons after torture by Antiochus IV.
8: Start of the Maccabean Revolt. Judas Maccabeus defeats Nicanor, Gorgias, and Ptolemy son of Dorymenes at the Battle of Emmaus. (~166–165 BC)
9:1–10:9: Antiochus IV is stricken with disease by God. He belatedly repents and writes a letter attempting to make peace before dying in Persia. Judas conquers Jerusalem, cleanses the Temple, and establishes the festival of Hanukkah. (~164 BC)
10:10–38: Lysias becomes regent. Governor Ptolemy Macron attempts to cement peace with the Jews, but is undermined by anti-Jewish nobles and commits suicide. The Maccabees campaign in outlying regions against Timothy of Ammon and others. (~163 BC)
11: Lysias leads a military expedition to Judea. Judas defeats him at the Battle of Beth Zur. Four documents detailing negotiations with Lysias and the Roman Republic. (~160s BC)
12: More accounts of the campaigns in outlying regions against Timothy, Gorgias, and others. (~163 BC)
13: Lysias orders the execution of unpopular High Priest Menelaus. Judas harries Lysias's expedition with minor victories. Lysias leaves and returns to the capital of Antioch to face the usurper Philip. (~163–162 BC, likely near in time to the Battle of Beth Zechariah described in 1 Maccabees)
14:1–15:36: Demetrius I becomes King. Alcimus, who had replaced Menelaus as High Priest, is affirmed by Demetrius I. Nicanor is appointed governor of Judea. Nicanor and Judas enter negotiations for peace, but are subverted by Alcimus, who complains to the king; Judas's arrest is ordered. Nicanor threatens to destroy the Temple. In a dream vision, Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah give Judas a divine golden sword. At the Battle of Adasa, Judas defeats and kills Nicanor, preserving the sanctity of the Temple. The Day of Nicanor festival is established. (~161 BC)
15:37–39: Epitomist's epilogue.
==

2 Maccabees audiobook (KJV), 2 hours 36 minutes. Includes read-along text
--
This is part of my ongoing series on Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical works:

1 Esdras inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343974

2 Esdras (the most relevant book in the Apocrypha?) inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1344302

1 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69454

3 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69496

4 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?p=1348046

Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy/Jeremiah
viewtopic.php?t=69433

Book of Tobit inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1341501

Apocryphal additions to Esther inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343414

Bel and the Dragon (quoted in full, KJV; inc audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69261

Prayer of Azarias and Hymn of the Three Children (quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?p=1341611

Book of Judith and the Book of Mormon, inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69402

Book of Susanna inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69386

Wisdom of Solomon
viewtopic.php?t=69469

Book of Sirach or Ecclesiasticus
viewtopic.php?t=69412

Prayer of Mannases (aka Mannaseh; quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69263

Psalm 151 (quoted in full, NRSV)
viewtopic.php?t=63875

Epistle to the Laodiceans (NT, quoted in full Wycliffe's translation, )
viewtopic.php?t=64025

The Book of Odes - this is an Eastern Orthodox work of limited interest, but included for the sake of completeness.
viewtopic.php?t=69470

Outside the Western and Eastern Orthodox Canon...

The Ethiopian canon. This includes brief info on the books of Sinodos, Ethiopian Clement, Ethiopian Covenant, and Didascalia as well as a list of other works in the canon.
viewtopic.php?t=69540

The Book of Jubilees aka Leptogenesis or Little Genesis
viewtopic.php?p=1348962

3 Corinthians
viewtopic.php?t=69567
Last edited by Niemand on February 4th, 2023, 6:26 am, edited 8 times in total.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Image

One area where 2 Maccabees and Protestantism part company is over the issue of prayers for the dead. But this is not so much of a problem for Mormons, given that much of our temple work is for them. It also opens up the doctrine of Purgatory which is similar to our spirit world.

Where do LDS stand on the issue of intercession by the dead saints? Probably half way between the two.

There is a good thread on this here:
https://www.quora.com/It-is-therefore-a ... this-verse

Poster 1
Second Maccabees. Though placed after First Maccabees, this account relates to part of the same time period (c. 180 B.C.E. to 160 B.C.E.) but was not written by the author of First Maccabees. The writer presents the book as a summary of the previous works of a certain Jason of Cyrene. It describes the persecutions of the Jews under Antiochus Epiphanes, the plundering of the temple, and its subsequent rededication.

The account represents Jeremiah, at the destruction of Jerusalem, as carrying the tabernacle and the ark of the covenant to a cave in the mountain from which Moses viewed the land of Canaan. (2 Maccabees 2:1-16) The tabernacle had, of course, been replaced by the temple some 420 years previously.

Various texts are employed in Catholic dogma as support for doctrines such as punishment after death (2 Maccabees 6:26), intercession by the saints (15:12-16), and the propriety of prayers for the dead (12:41-46, Dy).
Poster 2
I will give you 2 sets of Scriptures to prove that 2 Maccabees could not be part of biblical scriptures.

HEB 9:27 - “And it is reserved to men once to die and after this the Judgement “

And even more clear the incident given by the Lord Jesus Christ concerning Lazarus and the rich man in Lk 16:19–31, quoting Lk 16:22–23 - “And it happened the poor one died and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich one also died and was buried. And being in torment in Hades, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar and Lazarus in his bosoms “

Obviously 2 Maccabees would contradict Hebrews and the teaching of Lord Jesus Christ. It is hopeless to pray for the dead.
Poster 3
The way I see it, humans have always talked to spirits. It's the source of all these religions and predictions. The issue is that when these spirits talk back humans have a very hard time really getting an idea of who they're talking to. And that's probably why talking to or interceding for the dead was so greatly discouraged.

The other reason it was discouraged is based in the concept of salvation in my opinion. Martin Luther told of people needing the salvation by faith in Christ. To him, talking to or about deceased saints was a distraction from that point.
I disagree with this although it is an interesting idea.
I'm going to suggest that the theory that people should openly, violently revolt against their king is antithetical to many protestant kings of the Reformation and by removing those books, those kings, like James, who financed the KJV, would have less to worry about. This goes along with other language changes to make it more “king-friendly.” [Not quite true, the KJV included 2 Macc. It was removed centuries after King James. - N.]

Not all protestant bibles cut out the Apocrypha, so the theory posited here does not seem to hold much water, though as the years went on and the wars between Catholics and Protestants raged across Europe, things like this may have been used to drive the wedge between the two groups. We see evidence of that in the anti-Catholic rhetoric still today.
Poster 5
39 On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. 40 Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. (Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 12 - New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition 12:45)

Note: The NRSV Catholic Edition is a good place to read the Apocrypha.

I suspect the verse entries are entirely consistent, I found the quote in verse 45.

In context, the author notes the deaths of some Jewish warriors under Judas. Judas and his men concluded that they died as the result of their carrying idolatrous pendants on necklaces.

As a result, Judas went to great lengths to atone for their sin, even praying for them that their sin not be held against them in the resurrection.

The author thought that Judas’ prayer was effective.

I’ve heard that the Catholic Church relied on certain teachings from the Apocrypha to support its doctrines, and this was a point of contention between Catholics and Reformers.

However, the main reason for the opposition of Reformers such as Luther to the Apocrypha was that it isn’t part of the Tanakh, the Jewish Old Testament.
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2 ... e-dead-no/

The Passage in Question. Here is what 2 Macc 12:43-45 says about how Judas Maccabeus responded to slain soldiers of his that died with idolatrous amulets on their persons:

He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

The embolden is an obvious qualification. So, being that it would have been foolish to pray for the dead if there would not be a resurrection, it was a holy and pious thought that the resurrection was is in view when he made the prayer.

The glaringly obvious point is that it is the belief in the resurrection is being extolled, not the act of praying to the dead itself. This is clearly what the author is saying. Perhaps Augustine or Calvin disagrees, but to disagree one must read into the passage ideas that are not there. What the passage says in the above is rather simple.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

New Testament references

Stolen from the following website. (Be warned, the blog in general has some anti-Mormon content.)
https://sovereignjesus.net/bibles-and-v ... testament/

Hebrews 11:34: “….won strength out of weakness, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight….” cf 1 and 2 Maccabees

* Hebrews 11:35 cf 2 Maccabees 6:18-31, and 2 Maccabees 7:1-41

“Eleazar, one of the scribes in high position, a man now advanced in age and of noble presence, was being forced to open his mouth and eat swine’s flesh. But he, welcoming death with honour rather than life with pollution, went up to the rack of his own accord, spitting out the flesh, as all ought to do who have the courage to refuse things that it is not right to taste, even for the natural love of life….Those who a little before had acted towards him with goodwill now changed to ill will, because the words he had uttered [vss. 24-28] were in their opinion sheer madness. When he was about to die under the blows, he groaned aloud and said, ‘It is clear to the Lord that, though I might have been saved from death, I am enduring terrible sufferings in my body under this beating, but in my soul I am glad to suffer these things because I fear him’. So in this way he died, leaving in his death an example of nobility and a memorial of courage, not only to the young but to the great body of his nation” (2 Maccabees 6:18-20, 28-31).

“It also happened that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and things, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, ‘What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors?’. The king fell into a rage, and gave orders to have pans and cauldrons heated. These were heated immediately and he commanded that the tongue of their spokesman be cut out and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of the brothers and the mother looked on. When he was utterly helpless, the king ordered them to take him to the fire, still breathing, and to fry him in a pan. The smoke from the pan spread widely, but the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, ‘The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his song that bore witness against the people to their faces, when he said, And he will have compassion on his servants’. After the first brother had died, they brought forward the second for their sport. They tore off the skin of his head with the hair, and asked him, ‘Will you eat rather than have your body punished limb by limb?’ He replied in the language of his ancestors and said to them, ‘No’. Therefore he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the king of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life, because we have died for his laws. After him the third was the victim of their sport….After he too had died, they maltreated and tortured the fourth in the same way…..Next they brought forward the fifth and maltreated him….After him they brought forward the sixth…..The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honourable memory. Although she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them in the language of their ancestors….Antiochus felt that he was being treated with contempt, and he was suspicious of her reproachful tone. The youngest brother being still alive, Antiochus not only appealed to him in words, but promised with oaths that he would make him rich and enviable if he would turn from the ways of his ancestors, and that he would take him for his Friend and entrust him with public affairs. Since the young man would not listen to him at all, the king called the mother to him and urged her to advise the youth to save himself. But, leaning close to him, she spoke in their native language as follows…..’Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again along with your brothers’….The king fell into a rage, and handled him worse than the others, being exasperated at his scorn. So he died in his integrity, putting his whole trust in the Lord. Last of all the mother died, after her sons” (2 Maccabees 7:1-41).

* Acts 12:20-23 cf 2 Maccabees 9:1-12 – “….While he [Antiochus Epiphanes] was in Ecbatana, news came to him of what had happened to Nicanor and the forces of Timothy. Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight [verses 1-2]; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, ‘When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews.’ But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him with an incurable and invisible blow. As soon as he stopped speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels, for which there was no relief, and with sharp internal tortures – and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to drive even faster. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. Thus he who only a little while before had thought in his superhuman arrogance that he could command the waves of the sea, and had imagined that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. And so the ungodly man’s body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of the stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought that he could touch the stars of heaven. Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain at every moment. And when he could not endure his own stench, he uttered these words, ‘It is right to be subject to God; mortals should not think that they are equal to God”.

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:43 am Image
The Vision of Judas Maccabeus

Intro
The Second Book of Maccabees is overshadowed by the first, and does not share the same level of either fame or respect. The book has also been the subject of great controversy in Protestantism (because it supports prayers for the dead) and for Mormonism, because of the appearance of the word "nephi" in it (in the King James Version)

The author appears to be unknown, but it was probably an Egyptian Jew based in Alexandria. The writing style indicates he was highly educated.

Name
This book is normally called 2 Maccabees, II Maccabees or Second Maccabees. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canon, there are three other books of Maccabees with varying relevance to the first one. There are also several Ethiopian books of Maccabees. The Jewish Encyclopedia claims that only the first is a reliable historical source.

The word "Maccabee" is believed to mean "hammer" since Judas/Judah and his family hammer the Greek pagans.

Wikipedia
According to Jewish folklore the name Maccabee is an acronym of the verse Mi kamokha ba'elim Adonai, "Who among the gods is like you, O Adonai?", the Maccabean battle-cry to motivate troops. (Exodus 15:11). Some scholars maintain that the name is a shortened form of the Hebrew maqqab-Yahu (from naqab, "to mark, to designate"), meaning "the one designated by Yahweh". Although originally the surname Maccabee was exclusive to Judah (his brothers had different surnames), at a later date it came to signify all the Hasmoneans who fought during the Maccabean Revolt.
Summary
The LDS Bible dictionary gives a good summary of the book:
The Second Book of the Maccabees. Deals with the history of the Jews during 15 years (175–160 [BC]) and therefore goes over part of the period described in 1 Maccabees. It is inferior to that book both in simplicity and in accuracy because legends are introduced with great freedom. However, the doctrine of the Resurrection is strongly affirmed.
Here is a more positive perspective
https://www.abibleaday.com/bible-books/2-maccabees/
Second Maccabees, another historical book, is not a continuation of First Maccabees, but more appropriately a companion piece, as its timeline mostly overlaps First Maccabees and provides additional details. Most importantly, Second Maccabees offers a different perspective of these events, showcasing signs, wonders, and miracles.

It also gives additional insight into what provoked the Maccabean rebellion and covers Judas Maccabeus and his recapture and rededication of the temple.
Unlike 1 Macc., 2 Macc. appears originally to have been written in Greek. Ironic given the context. It has been translated into Hebrew subsequently.

The work is not a sequel to 1 Maccabees but rather its own independent rendition of the historical events of the Maccabean Revolt. It both starts and ends its history earlier than 1 Maccabees, starting with an incident with the Seleucid official Heliodorus attempting to tax the Second Temple in 178 BC, and ending with the Battle of Adasa in 161 BC. Some scholars believe the book to be influenced by the Pharisaic tradition, with sections that include an endorsement of prayer for the dead and a resurrection of the dead.

2 Maccabees both starts and ends its history earlier than 1 Maccabees does, instead covering the period from the high priest Onias III and King Seleucus IV (180 BC) to the defeat of Nicanor in 161. The exact focus of the work is debated. All agree that the work has a moralistic tenor, showing the triumph of Judaism, the supremacy of God, and the just punishment of villains. Some see it as a paean to Judas Maccabeus personally, describing the background of the Revolt to write a biography praising him; some see its focus as the Second Temple, showing its gradual corruption by Antiochus IV and how it was saved and purified; others see the focus as the city of Jerusalem and how it was saved; and others disagree with all of the above, seeing it as written strictly for literary and entertainment value.


Because this is one of the longer books, again I will provide more context in the replies.

New Testament references
Hebrews 11:35 is understood by some as referring to an event that was recorded in 2 Maccabees. For instance, the author of Hebrews refers to an oral tradition which spoke of an Old Testament prophet who was sawn in half in Hebrews 11:37, two verses after the 2 Maccabees reference.

Nephi and plagiarism accusations
As with Judith, Joseph Smith has been accused of plagiarising this book. It is the one place in the scriptures that the name Nephi appears (since many Bibles used to contain it). 2 Maccabees 1:34-36 says:
Then the king, inclosing the place, made it holy, after he had tried the matter. And the king took many gifts, and bestowed thereof on those whom he would gratify. And Neemias called this thing Naphthar, which is as much as to say, A cleansing: but many men call it Nephi.
The "Nephi" mentioned appears to be something similar to the legendary Greek Fire, a substance that would combust and burst into flame in contact with oxygen.

Despite this, there are many other proposed etymologies for Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Hugh Nibley suggested "nabi" meaning a prophet.

Chronology
The author is interested in providing a theological interpretation of the events; in this book God's interventions direct the course of events, punishing the wicked and restoring the Temple to his people. Some events appear to be presented out of strict chronological order to make theological points, such as the occasional "flash forward" to a villain's later death. The numbers cited for sizes of armies may also appear exaggerated, though not all of the manuscripts of this book agree.

Structure
2 Maccabees consists of 15 chapters.

1:1–2:18: Two letters to the Jews of Egypt.
2:19–32: Epitomist's preface.
3: Heliodorus attempts to tax the Temple of Jerusalem's treasury, but is repelled. (~178 BC)
4: High Priest Onias III of the Temple of Jerusalem is succeeded by his brother Jason; Jason is then succeeded by the corrupt Menelaus; Onias III is murdered. (~175–170 BC)
5: Jason attempts to overthrow Menelaus. King Antiochus IV Epiphanes returns from the second expedition of the Sixth Syrian War in Egypt, defeats Jason's supporters, sacks Jerusalem, loots the Temple treasury, and kills and enslaves local Jews as retribution for the perceived revolt. Jason is forced into exile. (168 BC)
6: The Temple is converted into syncretic Greek-Jewish worship site. Antiochus IV issues decrees forbidding traditional Jewish practices, such as circumcision, keeping kosher, and keeping the Sabbath. Eleazar the scribe is tortured and killed after refusing to eat pork. (168–167 BC)
7: Martyrdom of the woman and her seven sons after torture by Antiochus IV.
8: Start of the Maccabean Revolt. Judas Maccabeus defeats Nicanor, Gorgias, and Ptolemy son of Dorymenes at the Battle of Emmaus. (~166–165 BC)
9:1–10:9: Antiochus IV is stricken with disease by God. He belatedly repents and writes a letter attempting to make peace before dying in Persia. Judas conquers Jerusalem, cleanses the Temple, and establishes the festival of Hanukkah. (~164 BC)
10:10–38: Lysias becomes regent. Governor Ptolemy Macron attempts to cement peace with the Jews, but is undermined by anti-Jewish nobles and commits suicide. The Maccabees campaign in outlying regions against Timothy of Ammon and others. (~163 BC)
11: Lysias leads a military expedition to Judea. Judas defeats him at the Battle of Beth Zur. Four documents detailing negotiations with Lysias and the Roman Republic. (~160s BC)
12: More accounts of the campaigns in outlying regions against Timothy, Gorgias, and others. (~163 BC)
13: Lysias orders the execution of unpopular High Priest Menelaus. Judas harries Lysias's expedition with minor victories. Lysias leaves and returns to the capital of Antioch to face the usurper Philip. (~163–162 BC, likely near in time to the Battle of Beth Zechariah described in 1 Maccabees)
14:1–15:36: Demetrius I becomes King. Alcimus, who had replaced Menelaus as High Priest, is affirmed by Demetrius I. Nicanor is appointed governor of Judea. Nicanor and Judas enter negotiations for peace, but are subverted by Alcimus, who complains to the king; Judas's arrest is ordered. Nicanor threatens to destroy the Temple. In a dream vision, Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah give Judas a divine golden sword. At the Battle of Adasa, Judas defeats and kills Nicanor, preserving the sanctity of the Temple. The Day of Nicanor festival is established. (~161 BC)
15:37–39: Epitomist's epilogue.
==

2 Maccabees audiobook (KJV), 2 hours 36 minutes. Includes read-along text
--
This is part of my ongoing series on Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical works:

1 Esdras inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343974

2 Esdras (the most relevant book in the Apocrypha?) inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1344302

1 Maccabees
viewtopic.php?t=69454

Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy/Jeremiah
viewtopic.php?t=69433

Book of Tobit inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1341501

Apocryphal additions to Esther inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?p=1343414

Bel and the Dragon (quoted in full, KJV; inc audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69261

Prayer of Azarias and Hymn of the Three Children (quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?p=1341611

Book of Judith and the Book of Mormon, inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69402

Book of Susanna inc. audiobook link
viewtopic.php?t=69386

Wisdom of Solomon
viewtopic.php?t=69469

Book of Sirach or Ecclesiasticus
viewtopic.php?t=69412

Prayer of Mannases (aka Mannaseh; quoted in full KJV, inc. audiobook link)
viewtopic.php?t=69263

Psalm 151 (quoted in full, NRSV)
viewtopic.php?t=63875

Epistle to the Laodiceans (NT, quoted in full Wycliffe's translation, )
viewtopic.php?t=64025

The Book of Odes - this is an Eastern Orthodox work of limited interest, but included for the sake of completeness.
viewtopic.php?t=69470
Maccabaeus is Aramaic for “the hammer.” Dude’s name was The Hammer - I admit he makes me kind of swoon a little, that Judas.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:52 am Maccabaeus is Aramaic for “the hammer.” Dude’s name was The Hammer - I admit he makes me kind of swoon a little, that Judas.
It's a pretty cool story whatever one thinks of some of the theology in this book. And relevant today.

* The Jews get attacked/undermine by a hostile pagan force. That force seeks to destroy God's temple.
* Some Jews are willing to sell out and even to make pagan sacrifices in the temple.
* Righteous Jews take back their country and kick out both the pagans and the quislings.

Some people think the backlash was so intense that it led to the ultra-hardcore Judaism of the Pharisees which Jesus tried to correct.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wh ... -apocrypha

Alexander’s foreign policy differed from other rulers. He didn’t destroy the ancestral traditions of other cultures. He simply wanted them coalesced with the Greek way of life. To help facilitate that process, he made Greek the language of commerce, education, and literature. Cities were patterned after the Greek standard. Gymnasiums, stadiums, hippodromes, and theaters were erected. But the Jewish and Greek cultures were colliding, not coalescing. From the older, wiser Jewish perspective, this collision was devasting to their Jewish identity. But from the younger, more immature Jewish perspective, this was an opportunity to acclimatize to current cultural trends. Many young Jews wore broad-brimmed hats, just like the Greeks, and rushed through their duties at the temple to exercise naked in the gymnasium. Some of them even underwent an operation to hide their circumcision to avoid being ridiculed by their Hellenistic buddies (1 Maccabees 1:13–15; 2 Maccabees 4:10–17).

Some of this reminds me of the leaders in our church who would compromise with globalist organisations who want to use/control Christianity and then destroy it.
The pro-Hellenizers worked with the Seleucid military settlers to incorporate the worship of Baal (who was identified with Zeus) into the temple service. Even more tragic, Antiochus IV prohibited Jewish religion. He destroyed the Scriptures. He didn’t allow the Sabbath and festivals to be observed. Food laws were abolished. Circumcision could not be practiced; in fact, mothers were killed for allowing it, and their infants were hung from their mothers’ necks (1 Maccabees 1:41–46, 60–61). The lowest blow came when Antiochus IV erected an altar and sacrificed pigs on it...

...Now, how did these two monumental events inform the consciousness and ideology of every Jewish person who lived in the first century AD? It gave them a messianic fervor. They longed for a warrior-like, Davidic messiah who would crush their enemies (the Gentiles!), cleanse the temple, and renew God’s covenant. You get hints of this expectation throughout the Gospels. The people try to make Jesus king, but he withdraws to a mountain (John 6:15)....

At Jesus’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his followers spread palm branches on the ground (a national symbol of power and victory over oppressors during the Maccabean revolt) while crying out for “the King of Israel” to save them (John 12:13).

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:52 am Maccabaeus is Aramaic for “the hammer.” Dude’s name was The Hammer - I admit he makes me kind of swoon a little, that Judas.
It's a pretty cool story whatever one thinks of some of the theology in this book. And relevant today.

* The Jews get attacked/undermine by a hostile pagan force. That force seeks to destroy God's temple.
* Some Jews are willing to sell out and even to make pagan sacrifices in the temple.
* Righteous Jews take back their country and kick out both the pagans and the quislings.

Some people think the backlash was so intense that it led to the ultra-hardcore Judaism of the Pharisees which Jesus tried to correct.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wh ... -apocrypha

Alexander’s foreign policy differed from other rulers. He didn’t destroy the ancestral traditions of other cultures. He simply wanted them coalesced with the Greek way of life. To help facilitate that process, he made Greek the language of commerce, education, and literature. Cities were patterned after the Greek standard. Gymnasiums, stadiums, hippodromes, and theaters were erected. But the Jewish and Greek cultures were colliding, not coalescing. From the older, wiser Jewish perspective, this collision was devasting to their Jewish identity. But from the younger, more immature Jewish perspective, this was an opportunity to acclimatize to current cultural trends. Many young Jews wore broad-brimmed hats, just like the Greeks, and rushed through their duties at the temple to exercise naked in the gymnasium. Some of them even underwent an operation to hide their circumcision to avoid being ridiculed by their Hellenistic buddies (1 Maccabees 1:13–15; 2 Maccabees 4:10–17).

Some of this reminds me of the leaders in our church who would compromise with globalist organisations who want to use/control Christianity and then destroy it.
The pro-Hellenizers worked with the Seleucid military settlers to incorporate the worship of Baal (who was identified with Zeus) into the temple service. Even more tragic, Antiochus IV prohibited Jewish religion. He destroyed the Scriptures. He didn’t allow the Sabbath and festivals to be observed. Food laws were abolished. Circumcision could not be practiced; in fact, mothers were killed for allowing it, and their infants were hung from their mothers’ necks (1 Maccabees 1:41–46, 60–61). The lowest blow came when Antiochus IV erected an altar and sacrificed pigs on it...

...Now, how did these two monumental events inform the consciousness and ideology of every Jewish person who lived in the first century AD? It gave them a messianic fervor. They longed for a warrior-like, Davidic messiah who would crush their enemies (the Gentiles!), cleanse the temple, and renew God’s covenant. You get hints of this expectation throughout the Gospels. The people try to make Jesus king, but he withdraws to a mountain (John 6:15)....

At Jesus’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his followers spread palm branches on the ground (a national symbol of power and victory over oppressors during the Maccabean revolt) while crying out for “the King of Israel” to save them (John 12:13).
Was it the “hard core”ness of the Pharisees that Jesus had a problem with? Or was it their wickedness and hypocrisy?

Some Biblical scholars come to the conclusion that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not authentically His but are inserted to pacify the people against the ruling political power:
- pay your taxes (“render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s)
- get along with the Romans (if a man compel thee to walk a mile…walk two)

Did He really say it’s not what you put in your mouth that defiles you? Or was it stipulated by Gentile sympathizers who wanted to go along to get along? Wine mixed with water.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:33 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:52 am Maccabaeus is Aramaic for “the hammer.” Dude’s name was The Hammer - I admit he makes me kind of swoon a little, that Judas.
It's a pretty cool story whatever one thinks of some of the theology in this book. And relevant today.

* The Jews get attacked/undermine by a hostile pagan force. That force seeks to destroy God's temple.
* Some Jews are willing to sell out and even to make pagan sacrifices in the temple.
* Righteous Jews take back their country and kick out both the pagans and the quislings.

Some people think the backlash was so intense that it led to the ultra-hardcore Judaism of the Pharisees which Jesus tried to correct.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wh ... -apocrypha

Alexander’s foreign policy differed from other rulers. He didn’t destroy the ancestral traditions of other cultures. He simply wanted them coalesced with the Greek way of life. To help facilitate that process, he made Greek the language of commerce, education, and literature. Cities were patterned after the Greek standard. Gymnasiums, stadiums, hippodromes, and theaters were erected. But the Jewish and Greek cultures were colliding, not coalescing. From the older, wiser Jewish perspective, this collision was devasting to their Jewish identity. But from the younger, more immature Jewish perspective, this was an opportunity to acclimatize to current cultural trends. Many young Jews wore broad-brimmed hats, just like the Greeks, and rushed through their duties at the temple to exercise naked in the gymnasium. Some of them even underwent an operation to hide their circumcision to avoid being ridiculed by their Hellenistic buddies (1 Maccabees 1:13–15; 2 Maccabees 4:10–17).

Some of this reminds me of the leaders in our church who would compromise with globalist organisations who want to use/control Christianity and then destroy it.
The pro-Hellenizers worked with the Seleucid military settlers to incorporate the worship of Baal (who was identified with Zeus) into the temple service. Even more tragic, Antiochus IV prohibited Jewish religion. He destroyed the Scriptures. He didn’t allow the Sabbath and festivals to be observed. Food laws were abolished. Circumcision could not be practiced; in fact, mothers were killed for allowing it, and their infants were hung from their mothers’ necks (1 Maccabees 1:41–46, 60–61). The lowest blow came when Antiochus IV erected an altar and sacrificed pigs on it...

...Now, how did these two monumental events inform the consciousness and ideology of every Jewish person who lived in the first century AD? It gave them a messianic fervor. They longed for a warrior-like, Davidic messiah who would crush their enemies (the Gentiles!), cleanse the temple, and renew God’s covenant. You get hints of this expectation throughout the Gospels. The people try to make Jesus king, but he withdraws to a mountain (John 6:15)....

At Jesus’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his followers spread palm branches on the ground (a national symbol of power and victory over oppressors during the Maccabean revolt) while crying out for “the King of Israel” to save them (John 12:13).
Was it the “hard core”ness of the Pharisees that Jesus had a problem with? Or was it their wickedness and hypocrisy?

Some Biblical scholars come to the conclusion that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not authentically His but are inserted to pacify the people against the ruling political power:
- pay your taxes (“render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s)
- get along with the Romans (if a man compel thee to walk a mile…walk two)
I think it's the fact they went hardcore in a stupid way. The Pharisees concentrated on things like praying very obviously in public (virtue signalling) and hair-splitting (rules for rules' sake).

Jesus clearly criticises them for "missing the woods for the trees". They were so keen on appearing ultra-Jewish that they forgot God's law. It's a curse that we still see with many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Marxists/the far left (since they arose out of Judaeo-Christian culture too. The rabbinical background of Marx's family, plus the radical Puritan preaching circuit in England.)

I've argued here that Jesus' exorcism of "Legion" may have a hidden meaning related to the Romans:
viewtopic.php?p=1340798#p1340798

I have seen several interpretations of "render unto Caesar". Here are a few:
* Co-exist with the world. The FP's angle, more or less. This ties in with the fact that Jesus did not seem to lead an armed rebellion.
* Money is a materialist construct, and is of no interest to God compared to spiritual things. (No pun intended.) Overcome the world. This ties in with Jesus' comments on the rich.
* Give to Caesar exactly what he deserves. A double meaning. One of which is anti-Roman. "He'll get his."
* Caesar's time is limited. It doesn't matter. There will be someone else along.
Did He really say it’s not what you put in your mouth that defiles you? Or was it stipulated by Gentile sympathizers who wanted to go along to get along? Wine mixed with water.
That's been a long term dispute. Ethiopian Christians won't eat pork to this day.

This does fit in with Jesus' teachings that observing the law in deed is pointless if you aren't observing it in word and thought.

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:49 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:33 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:52 am Maccabaeus is Aramaic for “the hammer.” Dude’s name was The Hammer - I admit he makes me kind of swoon a little, that Judas.
It's a pretty cool story whatever one thinks of some of the theology in this book. And relevant today.

* The Jews get attacked/undermine by a hostile pagan force. That force seeks to destroy God's temple.
* Some Jews are willing to sell out and even to make pagan sacrifices in the temple.
* Righteous Jews take back their country and kick out both the pagans and the quislings.

Some people think the backlash was so intense that it led to the ultra-hardcore Judaism of the Pharisees which Jesus tried to correct.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wh ... -apocrypha

Alexander’s foreign policy differed from other rulers. He didn’t destroy the ancestral traditions of other cultures. He simply wanted them coalesced with the Greek way of life. To help facilitate that process, he made Greek the language of commerce, education, and literature. Cities were patterned after the Greek standard. Gymnasiums, stadiums, hippodromes, and theaters were erected. But the Jewish and Greek cultures were colliding, not coalescing. From the older, wiser Jewish perspective, this collision was devasting to their Jewish identity. But from the younger, more immature Jewish perspective, this was an opportunity to acclimatize to current cultural trends. Many young Jews wore broad-brimmed hats, just like the Greeks, and rushed through their duties at the temple to exercise naked in the gymnasium. Some of them even underwent an operation to hide their circumcision to avoid being ridiculed by their Hellenistic buddies (1 Maccabees 1:13–15; 2 Maccabees 4:10–17).

Some of this reminds me of the leaders in our church who would compromise with globalist organisations who want to use/control Christianity and then destroy it.
The pro-Hellenizers worked with the Seleucid military settlers to incorporate the worship of Baal (who was identified with Zeus) into the temple service. Even more tragic, Antiochus IV prohibited Jewish religion. He destroyed the Scriptures. He didn’t allow the Sabbath and festivals to be observed. Food laws were abolished. Circumcision could not be practiced; in fact, mothers were killed for allowing it, and their infants were hung from their mothers’ necks (1 Maccabees 1:41–46, 60–61). The lowest blow came when Antiochus IV erected an altar and sacrificed pigs on it...

...Now, how did these two monumental events inform the consciousness and ideology of every Jewish person who lived in the first century AD? It gave them a messianic fervor. They longed for a warrior-like, Davidic messiah who would crush their enemies (the Gentiles!), cleanse the temple, and renew God’s covenant. You get hints of this expectation throughout the Gospels. The people try to make Jesus king, but he withdraws to a mountain (John 6:15)....

At Jesus’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his followers spread palm branches on the ground (a national symbol of power and victory over oppressors during the Maccabean revolt) while crying out for “the King of Israel” to save them (John 12:13).
Was it the “hard core”ness of the Pharisees that Jesus had a problem with? Or was it their wickedness and hypocrisy?

Some Biblical scholars come to the conclusion that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not authentically His but are inserted to pacify the people against the ruling political power:
- pay your taxes (“render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s)
- get along with the Romans (if a man compel thee to walk a mile…walk two)
I think it's the fact they went hardcore in a stupid way. The Pharisees concentrated on things like praying very obviously in public (virtue signalling) and hair-splitting (rules for rules' sake).

Jesus clearly criticises them for "missing the woods for the trees". They were so keen on appearing ultra-Jewish that they forgot God's law. It's a curse that we still see with many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Marxists/the far left (since they arose out of Judaeo-Christian culture too. The rabbinical background of Marx's family, plus the radical Puritan preaching circuit in England.)

I've argued here that Jesus' exorcism of "Legion" may have a hidden meaning related to the Romans:
viewtopic.php?p=1340798#p1340798

I have seen several interpretations of "render unto Caesar". Here are a few:
* Co-exist with the world. The FP's angle, more or less. This ties in with the fact that Jesus did not seem to lead an armed rebellion.
* Money is a materialist construct, and is of no interest to God compared to spiritual things. (No pun intended.) Overcome the world. This ties in with Jesus' comments on the rich.
* Give to Caesar exactly what he deserves. A double meaning. One of which is anti-Roman. "He'll get his."
* Caesar's time is limited. It doesn't matter. There will be someone else along.
Did He really say it’s not what you put in your mouth that defiles you? Or was it stipulated by Gentile sympathizers who wanted to go along to get along? Wine mixed with water.
That's been a long term dispute. Ethiopian Christians won't eat pork to this day.

This does fit in with Jesus' teachings that observing the law in deed is pointless if you aren't observing it in word and thought.
Yeah, you know…I had never really thought about that name “Legion.” For me that’s reinforced by the fact that the swine is an animal that is representative of Gentiles in the Hebraic tradition. Good points.

I’m still working out this whole Gentile thing. Jesus was pretty hostile toward the Gentiles during His ministry. Even in prophecy - - the Law will only ever be a “light unto the Gentiles.” The Gentiles are the creators of the Great and Abominable Church. They are the swine. Swine don’t ever become clean animals in Enochian prophecy. And in the last day, Gentiles will serve the House of Israel.

Rambling. Thinking out loud. I still have no clue.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by nightlight »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:21 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:49 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:33 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm

It's a pretty cool story whatever one thinks of some of the theology in this book. And relevant today.

* The Jews get attacked/undermine by a hostile pagan force. That force seeks to destroy God's temple.
* Some Jews are willing to sell out and even to make pagan sacrifices in the temple.
* Righteous Jews take back their country and kick out both the pagans and the quislings.

Some people think the backlash was so intense that it led to the ultra-hardcore Judaism of the Pharisees which Jesus tried to correct.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wh ... -apocrypha

Alexander’s foreign policy differed from other rulers. He didn’t destroy the ancestral traditions of other cultures. He simply wanted them coalesced with the Greek way of life. To help facilitate that process, he made Greek the language of commerce, education, and literature. Cities were patterned after the Greek standard. Gymnasiums, stadiums, hippodromes, and theaters were erected. But the Jewish and Greek cultures were colliding, not coalescing. From the older, wiser Jewish perspective, this collision was devasting to their Jewish identity. But from the younger, more immature Jewish perspective, this was an opportunity to acclimatize to current cultural trends. Many young Jews wore broad-brimmed hats, just like the Greeks, and rushed through their duties at the temple to exercise naked in the gymnasium. Some of them even underwent an operation to hide their circumcision to avoid being ridiculed by their Hellenistic buddies (1 Maccabees 1:13–15; 2 Maccabees 4:10–17).

Some of this reminds me of the leaders in our church who would compromise with globalist organisations who want to use/control Christianity and then destroy it.
The pro-Hellenizers worked with the Seleucid military settlers to incorporate the worship of Baal (who was identified with Zeus) into the temple service. Even more tragic, Antiochus IV prohibited Jewish religion. He destroyed the Scriptures. He didn’t allow the Sabbath and festivals to be observed. Food laws were abolished. Circumcision could not be practiced; in fact, mothers were killed for allowing it, and their infants were hung from their mothers’ necks (1 Maccabees 1:41–46, 60–61). The lowest blow came when Antiochus IV erected an altar and sacrificed pigs on it...

...Now, how did these two monumental events inform the consciousness and ideology of every Jewish person who lived in the first century AD? It gave them a messianic fervor. They longed for a warrior-like, Davidic messiah who would crush their enemies (the Gentiles!), cleanse the temple, and renew God’s covenant. You get hints of this expectation throughout the Gospels. The people try to make Jesus king, but he withdraws to a mountain (John 6:15)....

At Jesus’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his followers spread palm branches on the ground (a national symbol of power and victory over oppressors during the Maccabean revolt) while crying out for “the King of Israel” to save them (John 12:13).
Was it the “hard core”ness of the Pharisees that Jesus had a problem with? Or was it their wickedness and hypocrisy?

Some Biblical scholars come to the conclusion that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not authentically His but are inserted to pacify the people against the ruling political power:
- pay your taxes (“render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s)
- get along with the Romans (if a man compel thee to walk a mile…walk two)
I think it's the fact they went hardcore in a stupid way. The Pharisees concentrated on things like praying very obviously in public (virtue signalling) and hair-splitting (rules for rules' sake).

Jesus clearly criticises them for "missing the woods for the trees". They were so keen on appearing ultra-Jewish that they forgot God's law. It's a curse that we still see with many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Marxists/the far left (since they arose out of Judaeo-Christian culture too. The rabbinical background of Marx's family, plus the radical Puritan preaching circuit in England.)

I've argued here that Jesus' exorcism of "Legion" may have a hidden meaning related to the Romans:
viewtopic.php?p=1340798#p1340798

I have seen several interpretations of "render unto Caesar". Here are a few:
* Co-exist with the world. The FP's angle, more or less. This ties in with the fact that Jesus did not seem to lead an armed rebellion.
* Money is a materialist construct, and is of no interest to God compared to spiritual things. (No pun intended.) Overcome the world. This ties in with Jesus' comments on the rich.
* Give to Caesar exactly what he deserves. A double meaning. One of which is anti-Roman. "He'll get his."
* Caesar's time is limited. It doesn't matter. There will be someone else along.
Did He really say it’s not what you put in your mouth that defiles you? Or was it stipulated by Gentile sympathizers who wanted to go along to get along? Wine mixed with water.
That's been a long term dispute. Ethiopian Christians won't eat pork to this day.

This does fit in with Jesus' teachings that observing the law in deed is pointless if you aren't observing it in word and thought.
Yeah, you know…I had never really thought about that name “Legion.” For me that’s reinforced by the fact that the swine is an animal that is representative of Gentiles in the Hebraic tradition. Good points.

I’m still working out this whole Gentile thing. Jesus was pretty hostile toward the Gentiles during His ministry. Even in prophecy - - the Law will only ever be a “light unto the Gentiles.” The Gentiles are the creators of the Great and Abominable Church. They are the swine. Swine don’t ever become clean animals in Enochian prophecy. And in the last day, Gentiles will serve the House of Israel.

Rambling. Thinking out loud. I still have no clue.
Are you a gentile?

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

nightlight wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:21 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:49 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:33 pm

Was it the “hard core”ness of the Pharisees that Jesus had a problem with? Or was it their wickedness and hypocrisy?

Some Biblical scholars come to the conclusion that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not authentically His but are inserted to pacify the people against the ruling political power:
- pay your taxes (“render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s)
- get along with the Romans (if a man compel thee to walk a mile…walk two)
I think it's the fact they went hardcore in a stupid way. The Pharisees concentrated on things like praying very obviously in public (virtue signalling) and hair-splitting (rules for rules' sake).

Jesus clearly criticises them for "missing the woods for the trees". They were so keen on appearing ultra-Jewish that they forgot God's law. It's a curse that we still see with many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Marxists/the far left (since they arose out of Judaeo-Christian culture too. The rabbinical background of Marx's family, plus the radical Puritan preaching circuit in England.)

I've argued here that Jesus' exorcism of "Legion" may have a hidden meaning related to the Romans:
viewtopic.php?p=1340798#p1340798

I have seen several interpretations of "render unto Caesar". Here are a few:
* Co-exist with the world. The FP's angle, more or less. This ties in with the fact that Jesus did not seem to lead an armed rebellion.
* Money is a materialist construct, and is of no interest to God compared to spiritual things. (No pun intended.) Overcome the world. This ties in with Jesus' comments on the rich.
* Give to Caesar exactly what he deserves. A double meaning. One of which is anti-Roman. "He'll get his."
* Caesar's time is limited. It doesn't matter. There will be someone else along.
Did He really say it’s not what you put in your mouth that defiles you? Or was it stipulated by Gentile sympathizers who wanted to go along to get along? Wine mixed with water.
That's been a long term dispute. Ethiopian Christians won't eat pork to this day.

This does fit in with Jesus' teachings that observing the law in deed is pointless if you aren't observing it in word and thought.
Yeah, you know…I had never really thought about that name “Legion.” For me that’s reinforced by the fact that the swine is an animal that is representative of Gentiles in the Hebraic tradition. Good points.

I’m still working out this whole Gentile thing. Jesus was pretty hostile toward the Gentiles during His ministry. Even in prophecy - - the Law will only ever be a “light unto the Gentiles.” The Gentiles are the creators of the Great and Abominable Church. They are the swine. Swine don’t ever become clean animals in Enochian prophecy. And in the last day, Gentiles will serve the House of Israel.

Rambling. Thinking out loud. I still have no clue.
Are you a gentile?
No, I’m definitely not a Gentile. Not that I trust the declaration by the patriarch who gave me a blessing identical to two of my friends… But I know in my core that I’m not a Gentile, although I was nursed by them. May explain my affinity for the Law, how much I detest the heathen feast days, and the feeling of being both a stranger and a pilgrim.

What about you?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:21 pm Yeah, you know…I had never really thought about that name “Legion.” For me that’s reinforced by the fact that the swine is an animal that is representative of Gentiles in the Hebraic tradition. Good points.

I’m still working out this whole Gentile thing. Jesus was pretty hostile toward the Gentiles during His ministry. Even in prophecy - - the Law will only ever be a “light unto the Gentiles.” The Gentiles are the creators of the Great and Abominable Church. They are the swine. Swine don’t ever become clean animals in Enochian prophecy. And in the last day, Gentiles will serve the House of Israel.

Rambling. Thinking out loud. I still have no clue.
Nothing wrong with "spitballing" or whatever you want to call it. I've done a few posts like that, e.g. should we use the pagan names for weeks and months (traditionally Quakers wouldn't) or if sacrament was meant to be more of a meal rather than how we celebrate it?

The Jews have apostasised many times and are currently in long term apostasy (two thousand years and counting). The big Christian denominations are now in apostasy for various reasons and are allying with the world.

There is a prophetic element to all this. Maybe we should see the Legion/Gadarene swine story in a different light. The Legion represents Rome (both imperial and later ecclesiastical), and the swine are the Gentile nations driven made by Roman pagan doctrines and militarism which corrupt the church. This relates to the pigs being brought into the Jerusalem temple by Antiochus' men... this represents both corrupt pagan Gentile traditions coming to the Jews, and God's law being corrupted by pagan ideas (saint cults, popery, Mariolatry-goddess cults) among the Gentiles.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by nightlight »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:40 pm
nightlight wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:21 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:49 pm

I think it's the fact they went hardcore in a stupid way. The Pharisees concentrated on things like praying very obviously in public (virtue signalling) and hair-splitting (rules for rules' sake).

Jesus clearly criticises them for "missing the woods for the trees". They were so keen on appearing ultra-Jewish that they forgot God's law. It's a curse that we still see with many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Marxists/the far left (since they arose out of Judaeo-Christian culture too. The rabbinical background of Marx's family, plus the radical Puritan preaching circuit in England.)

I've argued here that Jesus' exorcism of "Legion" may have a hidden meaning related to the Romans:
viewtopic.php?p=1340798#p1340798

I have seen several interpretations of "render unto Caesar". Here are a few:
* Co-exist with the world. The FP's angle, more or less. This ties in with the fact that Jesus did not seem to lead an armed rebellion.
* Money is a materialist construct, and is of no interest to God compared to spiritual things. (No pun intended.) Overcome the world. This ties in with Jesus' comments on the rich.
* Give to Caesar exactly what he deserves. A double meaning. One of which is anti-Roman. "He'll get his."
* Caesar's time is limited. It doesn't matter. There will be someone else along.



That's been a long term dispute. Ethiopian Christians won't eat pork to this day.

This does fit in with Jesus' teachings that observing the law in deed is pointless if you aren't observing it in word and thought.
Yeah, you know…I had never really thought about that name “Legion.” For me that’s reinforced by the fact that the swine is an animal that is representative of Gentiles in the Hebraic tradition. Good points.

I’m still working out this whole Gentile thing. Jesus was pretty hostile toward the Gentiles during His ministry. Even in prophecy - - the Law will only ever be a “light unto the Gentiles.” The Gentiles are the creators of the Great and Abominable Church. They are the swine. Swine don’t ever become clean animals in Enochian prophecy. And in the last day, Gentiles will serve the House of Israel.

Rambling. Thinking out loud. I still have no clue.
Are you a gentile?
No, I’m definitely not a Gentile. Not that I trust the declaration by the patriarch who gave me a blessing identical to two of my friends… But I know in my core that I’m not a Gentile, although I was nursed by them. May explain my affinity for the Law, how much I detest the heathen feast days, and the feeling of being both a stranger and a pilgrim.

What about you?

No, I'm not

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 1:51 pm The Jews have apostasised many times and are currently in long term apostasy (two thousand years and counting). The big Christian denominations are now in apostasy for various reasons and are allying with the world.
The House of Israel (what gets called by the name “Jews”) is mixed in with the Gentiles, right? Once the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, it sounds like the scattered Israelites will kind of get woken up. They are the “remnant of Jacob” who will tread down the wicked Gentiles. There will be a restoration. I think we’re probably on the brink.
Why didn’t Joseph Smith restore the holy feast days or God’s calendar? Malachi said that was yet to come with either Elijah or *an* Elijah.
There is a prophetic element to all this. Maybe we should see the Legion/Gadarene swine story in a different light. The Legion represents Rome (both imperial and later ecclesiastical), and the swine are the Gentile nations driven made by Roman pagan doctrines and militarism which corrupt the church. This relates to the pigs being brought into the Jerusalem temple by Antiochus' men... this represents both corrupt pagan Gentile traditions coming to the Jews, and God's law being corrupted by pagan ideas (saint cults, popery, Mariolatry-goddess cults) among the Gentiles.
Don’t you think Russell M Nelson is a little like Paul? Besides the beady, hollow eyes there’s is also a major capitulation to the corrupt powers that be. What results is contamination. Maybe, anciently, it was inevitable. But was it ordained? I tend to think not but IDK.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:10 pm Don’t you think Russell M Nelson is a little like Paul? Besides the beady, hollow eyes there’s is also a major capitulation to the corrupt powers that be. What results is contamination. Maybe, anciently, it was inevitable. But was it ordained? I tend to think not but IDK.
Nelson will produce nothing that will last or be appreciated for its beauty. I've given my thoughts on your thread elsewhere but there is no comparison between the two. Paul – for all his faults – has brought more people to Christ than Nelson ever did. Nelson is a drop in the ocean.

viewtopic.php?t=69036

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:10 pm Don’t you think Russell M Nelson is a little like Paul? Besides the beady, hollow eyes there’s is also a major capitulation to the corrupt powers that be. What results is contamination. Maybe, anciently, it was inevitable. But was it ordained? I tend to think not but IDK.
Nelson will produce nothing that will last or be appreciated for its beauty. I've given my thoughts on your thread elsewhere but there is no comparison between the two. Paul – for all his faults – has brought more people to Christ than Nelson ever did. Nelson is a drop in the ocean.

viewtopic.php?t=69036
Yeah, I won’t sully this thread with more of that. I’m not convinced. I see the same things happening and the same philosophies being put forward. The ripening of the “Jews” in parallel with the ripening of the Gentiles.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:24 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:10 pm Don’t you think Russell M Nelson is a little like Paul? Besides the beady, hollow eyes there’s is also a major capitulation to the corrupt powers that be. What results is contamination. Maybe, anciently, it was inevitable. But was it ordained? I tend to think not but IDK.
Nelson will produce nothing that will last or be appreciated for its beauty. I've given my thoughts on your thread elsewhere but there is no comparison between the two. Paul – for all his faults – has brought more people to Christ than Nelson ever did. Nelson is a drop in the ocean.

viewtopic.php?t=69036
Yeah, I won’t sully this thread with more of that. I’m not convinced. I see the same things happening and the same philosophies being put forward.
Few of my friends and none of my family are LDS. If I asked them who Russell M. Nelson was, most of them wouldn't know. I'm not exactly willing to tell them about him, because I'm not impressed. He may have an inflated opinion of himself, but he's small change. The classic example was the picture of him with Pope Francis. Francis looks bemused. He probably doesn't know much about Nelson either although Nelson looks starstruck. (Not endorsing Francis/Bergoglio by the way – he's much more dangerous than Nelson.)

There is a clear parallel between the Maccabees story and what is happening in the world today.

You have given me an insight there. Quite a bit of the Apocrypha includes foreshadowing of both Christ and Antichrist (future desecration of the temple).

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Pazooka »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:31 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:24 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:10 pm Don’t you think Russell M Nelson is a little like Paul? Besides the beady, hollow eyes there’s is also a major capitulation to the corrupt powers that be. What results is contamination. Maybe, anciently, it was inevitable. But was it ordained? I tend to think not but IDK.
Nelson will produce nothing that will last or be appreciated for its beauty. I've given my thoughts on your thread elsewhere but there is no comparison between the two. Paul – for all his faults – has brought more people to Christ than Nelson ever did. Nelson is a drop in the ocean.

viewtopic.php?t=69036
Yeah, I won’t sully this thread with more of that. I’m not convinced. I see the same things happening and the same philosophies being put forward.
Few of my friends and none of my family are LDS. If I asked them who Russell M. Nelson was, most of them wouldn't know. I'm not exactly willing to tell them about him, because I'm not impressed. He may have an inflated opinion of himself, but he's small change. The classic example was the picture of him with Pope Francis. Francis looks bemused. He probably doesn't know much about Nelson either although Nelson looks starstruck. (Not endorsing Francis/Bergoglio by the way – he's much more dangerous than Nelson.)

There is a clear parallel between the Maccabees story and what is happening in the world today.

You have given me an insight there. Quite a bit of the Apocrypha includes foreshadowing of both Christ and Antichrist (future desecration of the temple).
Consider this, from 1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles(not 13 apostles) bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways(“ways” denote laws and ordinances, not theology - - this is Law) of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
This makes it seem like the gospel was lost in translation from Jew to Gentile. I see Paul as part of that problem.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Latest Apocrypha
The Book of Enoch
viewtopic.php?t=69577

Book of Mormon parallels
2 Maccabees one certainly does have some parallels to the Book of Mormon.

Chapter 1 speaks of the "Jews at Jerusalem", possibly a reflection of being written in Egypt or somewhere outside the Holy Land.

Chapter 2 :23-32 The author is concerned with abridging history much like the Book of Mormon All these things, I say, being declared by Jason of Cyrene in five books, we will assay to abridge in one volume. For considering the infinite number, and the difficulty which they find that desire to look into the narrations of the story, for the variety of the matter... Therefore to us, that have taken upon us this painful labour of abridging, it was not easy, but a matter of sweat and watching; Even as it is no ease unto him that prepareth a banquet, and seeketh the benefit of others: yet for the pleasuring of many we will undertake gladly this great pains; Leaving to the author the exact handling of every particular, and labouring to follow the rules of an abridgement. For as the master builder of a new house must care for the whole building; but he that undertaketh to set it out, and paint it, must seek out fit things for the adorning thereof: even so I think it is with us. To stand upon every point, and go over things at large, and to be curious in particulars, belongeth to the first author of the story: But to use brevity, and avoid much labouring of the work, is to be granted to him that will make an abridgment. Here then will we begin the story: only adding thus much to that which hath been said, that it is a foolish thing to make a long prologue, and to be short in the story itself.

The Nephi text from 2 Maccabees 1 This is the KJV translation


20 Now after many years, when it pleased God, Neemias, being sent from the king of Persia, did send of the posterity of those priests that had hid it to the fire: but when they told us they found no fire, but thick water;

21 Then commanded he them to draw it up, and to bring it; and when the sacrifices were laid on, Neemias commanded the priests to sprinkle the wood and the things laid thereupon with the water.

22 When this was done, and the time came that the sun shone, which afore was hid in the cloud, there was a great fire kindled, so that every man marvelled.

23 And the priests made a prayer whilst the sacrifice was consuming, I say, both the priests, and all the rest, Jonathan beginning, and the rest answering thereunto, as Neemias did.

24 And the prayer was after this manner; O Lord, Lord God, Creator of all things, who art fearful and strong, and righteous, and merciful, and the only and gracious King,

25 The only giver of all things, the only just, almighty, and everlasting, thou that deliverest Israel from all trouble, and didst choose the fathers, and sanctify them:

26 Receive the sacrifice for thy whole people Israel, and preserve thine own portion, and sanctify it.

27 Gather those together that are scattered from us, deliver them that serve among the heathen, look upon them that are despised and abhorred, and let the heathen know that thou art our God.

28 Punish them that oppress us, and with pride do us wrong.

29 Plant thy people again in thy holy place, as Moses hath spoken.

30 And the priests sung psalms of thanksgiving.

31 Now when the sacrifice was consumed, Neemias commanded the water that was left to be poured on the great stones.

32 When this was done, there was kindled a flame: but it was consumed by the light that shined from the altar.

33 So when this matter was known, it was told the king of Persia, that in the place, where the priests that were led away had hid the fire, there appeared water, and that Neemias had purified the sacrifices therewith.

34 Then the king, inclosing the place, made it holy, after he had tried the matter.

35 And the king took many gifts, and bestowed thereof on those whom he would gratify.

36 And Neemias called this thing Naphthar, which is as much as to say, a cleansing: but many men call it Nephi.


The Greek used here is νεφθαι (nephthai). It is also listed as one of the chemicals used in the fire that the Three Young Men were put into. See link above.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

Meqabyan or Ethiopic Maccabees
In addition to the two books of Maccabees from the western Apocrypha (1 & 2l and the two others from the Eastern Orthodox Apocrypha (3 & 4) there are three other books sometimes known as Ethiopic Maccabees. I have called these "Meqabyan", the Ethiopian name to avod confusion.

2 Meqabyan or II Meqabyan is sometimes known as 2 Maccabees in an Ethiopian context but is a different book from.this one.

These Ethiopian works is not connected with the better known 1, 2, 3 & 4 Maccabees directly although there are some points of contact.

1 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), another lost book?
viewtopic.php?t=69855

2 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), - the return of Tsirutsaydan
viewtopic.php?t=69971

3 Meqabyan (Ethiopian canon), a Question of Satan... another lost book
viewtopic.php?t=1367649

Latest Apocrypha
Some of the other works

Four Apocryphal Psalms - 152, 153, 154, 155
viewtopic.php?t=69985

The Gospel of Nicodemus or Acts of Pilate, as tested on Mennonites
viewtopic.php?t=69760

The Shepherd of Hermas - inspired literature or pagan trash?
viewtopic.php?t=69650

The Epistle of Barnabas (NT Apocrypha) - link between OT and NT, or not?
viewtopic.php?t=69679

1 Clement: Papist propaganda or a window into the early church?
viewtopic.php?p=1368842

2 Clement – inclement Gnosticism?
viewtopic.php?t=70327

The Didache or Teachings of the Apostles
viewtopic.php?t=69698

And
Antilegomena: the books which barely made it into the Bible - Revelation, Esther, Song of Songs, James etc
viewtopic.php?p=1350652

Is Q canonical? How about the Gospel of Thomas? The answer's more complicated than you think.
viewtopic.php?t=69715

The LDS Bible Dictionary on Lost Books and non-canonical works referred to in the Bible.
viewtopic.php?t=69805

Interrelated sects and religions:

The Samaritans, their canon and its significance
viewtopic.php?t=69905

About the Koran, and its use of figures from the Bible, the Apocrypha and extracanonical material. How useful a source is the Koran itself? Does it have any real extra information on Biblical figures? This is something of work in progress.
viewtopic.php?t=70169

Was Zoroaster/Zarathustra a lost prophet of God? Some surprising links between this largely forgotten figure and Judaism, plus the Gathas etc.
viewtopic.php?t=65938

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

The timeline of the Maccabees and the Book of Daniel

viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1246007#p1246007
Oldemandalton wrote: March 5th, 2022, 2:56 pm In my article I identify 25 of the kings and other historical figures mention by the angel in Daniel chapter 11. I also identify 23 events from history.
Rest of Oldemandalton's post in italics.

Daniel 11:2 The Four Kings of Persia: Cambyses (530-522 BC), Bardiya (522 BC), Darius (522-486 BC), and Xerxes’ (485-465 BC) invasion of Greece.
Daniel 11:3-4 Alexander the Great ( 336-323 BC) and the four Diadochi: Ptolemy in Egypt, Cassander in Macedonia, Lysimachus in Thrace/Asia Minor, and Seleucus in Mesopotamia/Central Asia.
Daniel 11:5 Seleucus I (305–281 BC) and Ptolemy I (305/304 – 282 BC), Battle of Ipsus (301 BC)
Daniel 11:6 Ptolemy II Philadelphus (284-246 BC) and Antiochus II Theos (261-246 BC), Berenice, Ptolemy’s daughter. Laodice, Antiochus’ wife. Second Syrian War (260–253 BC)
Daniel 11:7-8 Third Syrian War (246–241 BC)
Daniel 11:9 Seleucus II Callinicus (246-225 BC), Ptolemy III (246-222 BC)
Daniel 11:10-12 The sons were: Seleucus III Ceraunus & Antiochus III the Great, Fourth Syrian War (219-217 BC) Battle of Raphia (217 BC)
Daniel 11:13 Antiochus III the Great Campaigns in Anatolia, Bactria, and India (216-203 BC)
Daniel 11:14 Ptolemy V Epiphanes (204-180 BC) and the Alexandrian Revolution (203 BC)
Daniel 11:15-16 Antiochus III the Great vs Ptolemy V Epiphanes in the Fifth Syrian War (202–195 BC) and the Battle of Panium.
Daniel 11:17 Antiochus III the Great forms and alliance with Egypt and gives his daughter, Cleopatra to Ptolemy V
Daniel 11:18-19 Antiochus the Great looses to the Roman General, Lucius Cornelius Scipio, at the battle of Magnesia ( 190/189 BC)
Daniel 11:20 Seleucus IV Philopater (187-175 BC) orders Heliodorus to loot the Temple in Jerusalem, see 2 Maccabees chapter 3.
Daniel 11:21-22 Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 BC), prince of the covenant is Onias III
Daniel 11:23 Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Daniel 11:24-28 Sixth and Last Syrian War (170-168 BC) Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Ptolemy VI Philometor (180-145 BC), Siege of Alexandria.
Daniel 11:29-32 Antiochus's Second Invasion of Egypt (168 BC) Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas, stops the invasion. Antiochus’s destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.
Daniel 11:33-35 The Maccabee Rebellion (167 BC)
Daniel 11:36 Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Daniel 11:37-39 Antiochus IV Epiphanes worships the Roman, not Greek god, Jupiter.
Daniel 11:40-43 Antiochus IV Epiphanes Military Campaigns (175-164 BC)
Daniel 11:44-45 Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacks Jerusalem (168 BC) and dies from disease in 164 BC.

For a more detailed explanation see: “The Prophecies of Daniel: Part 8. Chapters 10-12, The Wars of the Kings of the North and the South.” https://www.theharvestatearthsend.com/T ... art-8.html


Latest Apocrypha
The Two Apocalypses of Peter: Guides to the universe or sadism? The ancient Apocalypse of Peter and the Arabic Apocalypse of Peter.
viewtopic.php?t=70682

The First and Second Books of Adam and Eve (the Conflict with Satan)
viewtopic.php?t=70846

A post on the Restored Branch, an English LDS microsect and its canon which includes works such as the Nag Hammadi and Gnostic texts: these are the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Truth (sic), the Letter of the Apostle Paul, the Sophia (Wisdom) of Jesus the Christ, the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles and the Letter of Peter which he sent to Philip.
viewtopic.php?t=70413

Interrelated religions:
My thread on a bizarre Middle Eastern sect and their beliefs. Are the Yezidis of the Middle East an ancient Satanist group or a lost Jewish tribe? And what is the connection between their religion and today's rainbow flag? Is this strange group simply misunderstood?
viewtopic.php?t=70625

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: 2 Maccabees, prayers for the dead and the Nephi controversy

Post by Niemand »

There have been a few posts recently about work for the dead. The passage in 2 Macc. 12 shows that people were clearly doing such a thing in the so called inter-testamental period.

Kirtland RM's thread on baptism for the dead in early Christianity.
viewtopic.php?t=72255

Same author on the question of visions/visitations by dead people and if they are valid/demonic.
viewtopic.php?t=72204
-----

Latest Apocrypha
A lost Old Testament book containing prophecies of Christ and the Tribulation preserved by Jews in India? The Book of Gad the Seer
viewtopic.php?t=71421

The Ascension of Isaiah, visions of Christ and Antichrist
viewtopic.php?t=71598

The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs: are these lost books of the founders of each Tribe of Israel or a later forgery?
viewtopic.php?t=71314

The Book of the Cock – an unfortunately named Ethiopian gospel still in current use.
viewtopic.php?t=71338

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, an early endorsement of Paul or a forgery?
viewtopic.php?p=1400884

The Martyrdom of Polycarp, a second century piece related to an early martyr.
viewtopic.php?t=71751

The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus - a beautiful short letter about the relations of Christians and non-Christians, and the Tree of Knowledge
viewtopic.php?p=1404032

End Times Prophecy in Apocrypha/Pseudepigrapha: A guide
Includes discussions of 2 Esdras, (1) Enoch, Nicodemus, Ascension of Isaiah, Gad the Seer and the Shepherd of Hermas
viewtopic.php?t=71659

Celtic legends about the Bible, including the visits of Biblical figures to western Europe, the Michael Line, Holy Grail/Arthurian legend, and Pontius Pilate. Discusses the Lost Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles (the Sonnini Manuscript), Magna Tabula Glastonia, writings of Nicephorus, Leabhar Gabhala/Lebor Gabála Érenn (Book of Settlements), the Mabinogion etc. Also discussed the modern Kolbrin Book and the Gospel of Kailedy, plus the ideas of William Comyns Beaumont.
viewtopic.php?t=71061

Post Reply