Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

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Niemand
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Niemand »

Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.

Take the two above:

* Odin
** Hung on a tree to gain knowledge and arguably save the world.
** But more akin to Heavenly Father in his role than Jesus.
** But did not die and become resurrected properly. (Norse gods were mortal unlike most of their counterparts elsewhere. )
** Being hung on the tree was mainly to gain wisdom and gain access to the runes.
** Represented as a family man with numerous children. (Jesus despite stories of his being married is not generally portrayed as being a husband or father.)
** One eyed, more like the Masonic deity than Jesus.
** Rides a horse with more than four legs, Sleipnir, which is technically his grandchild, via Loki, his adopted son, which Loki gave birth to in female form. (Apart from Jesus riding a donkey, this doesn't sound remotely Christian to me)

* Baldur
** Son who undergoes martyrdom.
** But story may postdate contact between Norse paganism and Christianity.
** But martydom takes place at the end of the world, when his father's rule is collapsing.
** Martyrdom is not by anything resembling crucifixion.
** Name may be remotely related to Baal and Bel. (Arguable.)

The death and rebirth myths in other religions are also often repeating cycles, rather than a one off event as in Christianity. There is no eternal redemption in such events, it has to happen again and again and does not usually represent an atonement.

Another clunking big problem that the posts above address is that the gods of almost all religions are immortal. Norse/Germanic mythology tends to be something of an exception since its gods could die. So when some Egyptian or classical god is chopped up, they haven't really died in the first place! The majority of religions have no sense of sin and atonement, although one can offend gods. The pre-Christian Romans for example, thought gods could be angered and offended, but like the Hindus had gods one could go to if one was a criminal such as a thief or murderer to help you in those projects. Roman Catholicism has something like this in its saints (which are more like pagan deities in some senses) including unofficial patron saints of drug dealers etc.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Ymarsakar »

Yes, which is kind of like how a parable points to the truth in metaphor. Religious doctrines and dogmas are an indirect way to point to a divine truth or path.
Durzan wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 6:53 pm
SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 2:13 pm
creator wrote: September 24th, 2022, 7:19 pm Most religions have been repeating the same archetypal stories throughout history. Retelling the same stories in different ways, with varying details, but it all points back to Christ. It reveals how Christ is, and always has been, at the center of everything. The great I AM. The Word. The Way the Truth and the Light.

http://work.tree-of-life.dk/ThorAndSif.html
I agree! Every culture had similar but different myths, rituals, and symbols that unequivocally all tell the same one story. Some call it The One Story told around the world, and the greatest story ever told. This is why if one wants to understand the ancient past it can only happen through a comparative approach to ancient world mythology (cosmology) that constitutes the reliable substructure of human memory as well as a reliable way to reconstruct the past. A comparative approach clarifies all the images/archetypes/symbols/rituals/motifs. The myths explain the symbols and the symbols illuminate the myths.

"... It must be admitted that other societies seem to share the same traditions; At every point from a wealth of ancient sources-Jewish and Christian Apocrypha, Talmud, Mishnah, even Gnostic and Cabbalistic writings, Moslem commentators, sectaries of the desert such as Mandaeans and Qumran people, even the church of the Fathers and classical writers." - "Hugh Nibley, Phase One,"

"Spending all my time with the apocryphal, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Pagan- As you may be aware, the present tendency is to see the whole vast literature fusing into a common matrix- you can no longer put Greek Philosophy, Hebrew prophets, Egyptian wisdom literature, Canaanite ritual text, Babylonian mythology, etc. into strictly isolated departments- they must be studied together." -Hugh Nibley

(These quotes ^^^ might as well be from any ancient comparative mythologist. Carl Jung, Joseph Campell, David Talbott, Immanuel Velikovsky, Hugh Nibley, and Mircea Eliade, etc.)

How does one draw a reliable conclusion from a vast library of different cultural myths? You ONLY work with points of agreement (comparative mythology) between the different cultures. And that's where the surprise comes in because once you begin TO NAME THE POINTS OF AGREEMENTS (archetypes, Carl Jung) you will see that there are HUNDREDS OF THEM. It would never be evident at the surface, individually, in isolation, but dig down to the substructure of human memory and let the events shine through by virtue of points of agreement.

Too many folks spend too much time arguing about which story is original and or dirivited when the much bigger picture (the one story told around the world) illudes them as well as the origins. And that is just it, they ALL have a common origin, the further back you go the more reliable it is.

Now that's how a reconstruction occurs that is highly specific and incomparably more testable than the kind of things that we tinker with in modern theoretical sciences. Dig deep and test it. Search out ancient testimonies (ancient myths and rituals) from around the earth.

I also believe it does point to Christ, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Does anyone know the symbol for Alpha and Omega?

Along these lines and the topic of the OP, here are a few books I highly recommend.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious by Carl Jung
Here's the interesting thing about this line of thought... why do we think that the original is essentially Christianity? Is it because we are ourselves christian and have a bias towards that particular set of mythologies? If there is a common background for religion, might it be far more likely that the original source isn't Christianity, but something far older and possibly quite different?

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by creator »

Durzan wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 6:53 pmHere's the interesting thing about this line of thought... why do we think that the original is essentially Christianity? Is it because we are ourselves christian and have a bias towards that particular set of mythologies? If there is a common background for religion, might it be far more likely that the original source isn't Christianity, but something far older and possibly quite different?
We learn and communicate by giving things names and labels. The "original" had to be given a name for us to talk about it. There is a God, a being, a creator, a great Spirit, a something that is a repeated archetype throughout history. And that is the great I AM, the Christ, the Sun Spirit, the Mystical Lamb..

Why Christ? and why Christianity? Because that being who has been at the center of everything since the beginning, with the Father, has been identified as the Christ, as the same being who incarnated into mortality and was crucified.

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by creator »

Niemand wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 3:23 am Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.
I don't really see that as a problem. It just shows the imperfections of man's understanding of God (and the spiritual hierarchies).

Take for example the fact that Christ is the Sun God, but some people laugh at that idea, especially because of all the horrific human sacrifice done in supposed worship of a Sun God. The evils and imperfections of man doesn't change the truth that Christ is the Sun God.

We shouldn't expect religious mythologies to be perfect. But there are pearls to be found in there.

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Cruiserdude »

creator wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 12:59 pm
Niemand wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 3:23 am Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.
I don't really see that as a problem. It just shows the imperfections of man's understanding of God (and the spiritual hierarchies).

Take for example the fact that Christ is the Sun God, but some people laugh at that idea, especially because of all the horrific human sacrifice done in supposed worship of a Sun God. The evils and imperfections of man doesn't change the truth that Christ is the Sun God.

We shouldn't expect religious mythologies to be perfect. But there are pearls to be found in there.
Great post. And the one before....
Man I'm grateful for this place, I'm right at home with you truth loving heretics 👍👍

Peeps
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Peeps »

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 1:38 pm This is not true per se, ALL ancient cultures (proceeding Christ) believed their god not only died but defeated death and was resurrected. You could even say Christ's entire life was simply a repetition and was doing exactly what the gods before him did. <insert a bunch of quotes from Hugh Nibley's book(s), et al,....>
Jesus Christ came at the 4000th year mark, or the 4th day after creation, when going by God's time, in which 1 day = 1000 years-- the exact amount of time the Israelites were to choose a Passover lamb and keep it in the house with them before killing it and using its blood to put over their doors, as described in Exodus chapter 12. That in itself was prophetic. That was plenty of time for all those little gee gods/fallen to plant seeds of their mythology, because these fallen ones knew that the eternal plan. So Jesus Christ came in the middle of time, to fulfill a seemingly impossible amount of Biblical prophecy, to show people that He was the true God.
https://firmisrael.org/learn/how-many-p ... s-fulfill/

So no, I cannot say that Jesus Christ's "entire life was simply a repetition and was doing exactly what the gods before Him did," because it was NOT!

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Peeps »

Durzan wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 6:53 pm
SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 2:13 pm
creator wrote: September 24th, 2022, 7:19 pm Most religions have been repeating the same archetypal stories throughout history. Retelling the same stories in different ways, with varying details, but it all points back to Christ. It reveals how Christ is, and always has been, at the center of everything. The great I AM. The Word. The Way the Truth and the Light.

http://work.tree-of-life.dk/ThorAndSif.html
I agree! Every culture had similar but different myths, rituals, and symbols that unequivocally all tell the same one story. Some call it The One Story told around the world, and the greatest story ever told. This is why if one wants to understand the ancient past it can only happen through a comparative approach to ancient world mythology (cosmology) that constitutes the reliable substructure of human memory as well as a reliable way to reconstruct the past. A comparative approach clarifies all the images/archetypes/symbols/rituals/motifs. The myths explain the symbols and the symbols illuminate the myths.

"... It must be admitted that other societies seem to share the same traditions; At every point from a wealth of ancient sources-Jewish and Christian Apocrypha, Talmud, Mishnah, even Gnostic and Cabbalistic writings, Moslem commentators, sectaries of the desert such as Mandaeans and Qumran people, even the church of the Fathers and classical writers." - "Hugh Nibley, Phase One,"

"Spending all my time with the apocryphal, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Pagan- As you may be aware, the present tendency is to see the whole vast literature fusing into a common matrix- you can no longer put Greek Philosophy, Hebrew prophets, Egyptian wisdom literature, Canaanite ritual text, Babylonian mythology, etc. into strictly isolated departments- they must be studied together." -Hugh Nibley

(These quotes ^^^ might as well be from any ancient comparative mythologist. Carl Jung, Joseph Campell, David Talbott, Immanuel Velikovsky, Hugh Nibley, and Mircea Eliade, etc.)

How does one draw a reliable conclusion from a vast library of different cultural myths? You ONLY work with points of agreement (comparative mythology) between the different cultures. And that's where the surprise comes in because once you begin TO NAME THE POINTS OF AGREEMENTS (archetypes, Carl Jung) you will see that there are HUNDREDS OF THEM. It would never be evident at the surface, individually, in isolation, but dig down to the substructure of human memory and let the events shine through by virtue of points of agreement.

Too many folks spend too much time arguing about which story is original and or dirivited when the much bigger picture (the one story told around the world) illudes them as well as the origins. And that is just it, they ALL have a common origin, the further back you go the more reliable it is.

Now that's how a reconstruction occurs that is highly specific and incomparably more testable than the kind of things that we tinker with in modern theoretical sciences. Dig deep and test it. Search out ancient testimonies (ancient myths and rituals) from around the earth.

I also believe it does point to Christ, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Does anyone know the symbol for Alpha and Omega?

Along these lines and the topic of the OP, here are a few books I highly recommend.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious by Carl Jung
Here's the interesting thing about this line of thought... why do we think that the original is essentially Christianity? Is it because we are ourselves christian and have a bias towards that particular set of mythologies? If there is a common background for religion, might it be far more likely that the original source isn't Christianity, but something far older and possibly quite different?
Christ IS the original source.
1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

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Durzan
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Durzan »

Peeps wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 5:47 pm
Durzan wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 6:53 pm
SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 2:13 pm

I agree! Every culture had similar but different myths, rituals, and symbols that unequivocally all tell the same one story. Some call it The One Story told around the world, and the greatest story ever told. This is why if one wants to understand the ancient past it can only happen through a comparative approach to ancient world mythology (cosmology) that constitutes the reliable substructure of human memory as well as a reliable way to reconstruct the past. A comparative approach clarifies all the images/archetypes/symbols/rituals/motifs. The myths explain the symbols and the symbols illuminate the myths.

"... It must be admitted that other societies seem to share the same traditions; At every point from a wealth of ancient sources-Jewish and Christian Apocrypha, Talmud, Mishnah, even Gnostic and Cabbalistic writings, Moslem commentators, sectaries of the desert such as Mandaeans and Qumran people, even the church of the Fathers and classical writers." - "Hugh Nibley, Phase One,"

"Spending all my time with the apocryphal, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Pagan- As you may be aware, the present tendency is to see the whole vast literature fusing into a common matrix- you can no longer put Greek Philosophy, Hebrew prophets, Egyptian wisdom literature, Canaanite ritual text, Babylonian mythology, etc. into strictly isolated departments- they must be studied together." -Hugh Nibley

(These quotes ^^^ might as well be from any ancient comparative mythologist. Carl Jung, Joseph Campell, David Talbott, Immanuel Velikovsky, Hugh Nibley, and Mircea Eliade, etc.)

How does one draw a reliable conclusion from a vast library of different cultural myths? You ONLY work with points of agreement (comparative mythology) between the different cultures. And that's where the surprise comes in because once you begin TO NAME THE POINTS OF AGREEMENTS (archetypes, Carl Jung) you will see that there are HUNDREDS OF THEM. It would never be evident at the surface, individually, in isolation, but dig down to the substructure of human memory and let the events shine through by virtue of points of agreement.

Too many folks spend too much time arguing about which story is original and or dirivited when the much bigger picture (the one story told around the world) illudes them as well as the origins. And that is just it, they ALL have a common origin, the further back you go the more reliable it is.

Now that's how a reconstruction occurs that is highly specific and incomparably more testable than the kind of things that we tinker with in modern theoretical sciences. Dig deep and test it. Search out ancient testimonies (ancient myths and rituals) from around the earth.

I also believe it does point to Christ, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Does anyone know the symbol for Alpha and Omega?

Along these lines and the topic of the OP, here are a few books I highly recommend.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious by Carl Jung
Here's the interesting thing about this line of thought... why do we think that the original is essentially Christianity? Is it because we are ourselves christian and have a bias towards that particular set of mythologies? If there is a common background for religion, might it be far more likely that the original source isn't Christianity, but something far older and possibly quite different?
Christ IS the original source.
1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
…According to our beliefs. If we're going to go down the rabbit hole of there being a single common origin for all of mankind's myth's and folklore, the notion that the Christian God is the root of them is just one of many possibilities.

Personally, I tend to lean towards the notion that the "original mythology" was split up over time, and that christianity (and by extension, the protestant restorationist offshoot sects that we collectively refer to as Mormonism and their respective offshoots) merely inherited certain aspects of this original mythology. I dunno that we actually have the whole truth on that matter, or that what we believe is actually the "original mythos" so to speak. Doubtless we have some things right, but there's also room for us to be very, very, wrong.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Ymarsakar »

I am God's Sword of Vengeance, and I smell heresy here.... mortals, are ye so emboldened of your lives that you will blaspheme the Son of God as the SUN of GOD?

OMG, I have also blasphemed, I must commit seppuko to atone.



Cruiserdude wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 1:11 pm
creator wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 12:59 pm
Niemand wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 3:23 am Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.
I don't really see that as a problem. It just shows the imperfections of man's understanding of God (and the spiritual hierarchies).

Take for example the fact that Christ is the Sun God, but some people laugh at that idea, especially because of all the horrific human sacrifice done in supposed worship of a Sun God. The evils and imperfections of man doesn't change the truth that Christ is the Sun God.

We shouldn't expect religious mythologies to be perfect. But there are pearls to be found in there.
Great post. And the one before....
Man I'm grateful for this place, I'm right at home with you truth loving heretics 👍👍

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abijah
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by abijah »

Niemand wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 3:23 am Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.

Take the two above:

* Odin
** Hung on a tree to gain knowledge and arguably save the world.
** But more akin to Heavenly Father in his role than Jesus.
** But did not die and become resurrected properly. (Norse gods were mortal unlike most of their counterparts elsewhere. )
** Being hung on the tree was mainly to gain wisdom and gain access to the runes.
** Represented as a family man with numerous children. (Jesus despite stories of his being married is not generally portrayed as being a husband or father.)
** One eyed, more like the Masonic deity than Jesus.
** Rides a horse with more than four legs, Sleipnir, which is technically his grandchild, via Loki, his adopted son, which Loki gave birth to in female form. (Apart from Jesus riding a donkey, this doesn't sound remotely Christian to me)

* Baldur
** Son who undergoes martyrdom.
** But story may postdate contact between Norse paganism and Christianity.
** But martydom takes place at the end of the world, when his father's rule is collapsing.
** Martyrdom is not by anything resembling crucifixion.
** Name may be remotely related to Baal and Bel. (Arguable.)
A point I wanna make is Baal and Thor are both storm gods, whereas YHWH belongs to a class above that, one unique to Him. Anyway im not saying Baal, or Zeus are the same as Thor, but imo the manner in which God deals with this stuff in the Elijah story maybe sheds some light on how to compare the nordic myth, and how there's a *scale* to spiritual hierarchies which is important to keep in mind when comparing mythologies.

Elijah is opposing the Baal cult which has been sanctioned and nationally instituted by king Ahab and Jezebel. Baal is the god of storms, of the wind & rain (which bring fertility to the land for the harvest), and the thunderbolt.

Rather than going toe-to-toe with Baal Himself, the Lord instead appears to elevate Elijah to being like the defacto storm god, since it's only by his word that the rains fall from the heavens, and it's only his sacrifice (and not the priests of Baal) where he calls down fire/thunderbolt from the heavens.

So God basically replaces Baal with Elijah seemingly. Job replacement.

So with that framework in mind, I don't think a comparison between Christ and Thor is at all 1-1, clearly the Lord is on a fundamentally higher level than these gods, and a more appropriate comparison with Thor would be lower on the hierarchy of deity.

Plus I think norse mythology comparisons to Christianity need to account for the trojan roots of norse heroes, and how Troy traces back to Abraham.

I've become more skeptical and open-ended on my thoughts on this subject of nordic gods though. I think in order for the truth in these things to be properly gleaned and harnessed, it must be first integrated with the Christian story and framework, something like Beowulf for example. But trying to engage with this stuff independent of an overarching christian framework can lead dark places I reckon.
Last edited by abijah on May 24th, 2023, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Ymarsakar »

Many of the Nordic/Greek gods were the nephilim, children of the fallen angels or fallen watchers/grigori. Thus they were not "gods" in the sense of activating their Divine DNA, they inherited Divine DNA from celestial unions. And since this violated various prime directive rules that were set in place to protect humanity's upbringing and development, it is indeed considered an abomination.


All these DNA farming/edits have ended up with a truly messed up human psyche and collective unconscious. Almost all of our Divine DNA has been disabled and rendered into "junk DNA", deactivated.

That is because seals were placed over various DNA groups specifically because they bred with some fallen or other problematic group that were here for DNA regeneration/Christ atonement. The DNA seals prevent people from achieving god like dominion and power, for safety reasons. For safety reasons they don't like these regressive/crazy elements out of the Earth quarantine prison either. As a result of intermixing however, all kinds of crazy things have developed. This has made life even harder here than it had to be.

That is why I like the term Most High and Almighty. It tends to define down the number of "gods" that would self declare themselves as qualifying.

abijah wrote: May 24th, 2023, 4:40 pm
Niemand wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 3:23 am Just to show how messy these assumptions are: Odin/Wotan/Woden and Baldur are actually better matches for Christ in Norse/Germanic mythology than Thor.

There isn't a single figure who exactly matches Christ, in fact, the parts are scattered all around in different places. Someone will try and tidy up a figure (as some on this thread have already done) and improve the similarities. The reality is that the figures often have big dissimilarities.

Take the two above:

* Odin
** Hung on a tree to gain knowledge and arguably save the world.
** But more akin to Heavenly Father in his role than Jesus.
** But did not die and become resurrected properly. (Norse gods were mortal unlike most of their counterparts elsewhere. )
** Being hung on the tree was mainly to gain wisdom and gain access to the runes.
** Represented as a family man with numerous children. (Jesus despite stories of his being married is not generally portrayed as being a husband or father.)
** One eyed, more like the Masonic deity than Jesus.
** Rides a horse with more than four legs, Sleipnir, which is technically his grandchild, via Loki, his adopted son, which Loki gave birth to in female form. (Apart from Jesus riding a donkey, this doesn't sound remotely Christian to me)

* Baldur
** Son who undergoes martyrdom.
** But story may postdate contact between Norse paganism and Christianity.
** But martydom takes place at the end of the world, when his father's rule is collapsing.
** Martyrdom is not by anything resembling crucifixion.
** Name may be remotely related to Baal and Bel. (Arguable.)
Baal and Thor are both storm gods. I'm not saying they are the same, but the manner in which God deals with this stuff in the Elijah story maybe sheds some light on how to compare the nordic myth.

Elijah is opposing the Baal cult which has been sanctioned and nationally instituted by king Ahab and Jezebel. Baal is the god of storms, of the wind & rain (which bring fertility to the land for the harvest), and the thunderbolt.

Rather than going toe-to-toe with Baal Himself, the Lord instead appears to elevate Elijah to being like the defacto storm god, since it's only by his word that the rains fall from the heavens, and it's only his sacrifice (and not the priests of Baal) where he calls down fire/thunderbolt from the heavens.

So God basically replaces Baal with Elijah seemingly. Job replacement.

So with that framework in mind, I don't think a comparison between Christ and Thor is at all 1-1, clearly the Lord is on a fundamentally higher level than these gods, and a more appropriate comparison with Thor would be lower on the hierarchy of deity.

I've become more skeptical and open-ended on my thoughts on this subject of nordic gods though. I think in order for the truth in these things to be properly gleaned and harnessed, it must be first integrated with the Christian story and framework, something like Beowulf for example. But independent of an overarching christian framework leads dark places I reckon.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Ymarsakar »

Also when I found out this backstory to human origins, boy I was not a happy camper. Like many of you, I grew up in a Western civilization that prioritized itself on egalitarian and equality values. I did not think in terms of bloodline lineages.

After understanding why the Qabal believes in bloodline lineages... I changed my viewpoint, because while I personally detested bloodline talk, it was a reality. I had to deal with reality if my foes were utilizing such things.

So did Jeshua have children with Mary Magdalene? Yes, that is so. And that lineage exists even today.

Maybe God ran out of "prophets" because the bloodlines dried up or went into permanent hiding.

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

Peeps wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 4:56 pm
SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 22nd, 2023, 1:38 pm This is not true per se, ALL ancient cultures (proceeding Christ) believed their god not only died but defeated death and was resurrected. You could even say Christ's entire life was simply a repetition and was doing exactly what the gods before him did. <insert a bunch of quotes from Hugh Nibley's book(s), et al,....>
Jesus Christ came at the 4000th year mark, or the 4th day after creation, when going by God's time, in which 1 day = 1000 years-- the exact amount of time the Israelites were to choose a Passover lamb and keep it in the house with them before killing it and using its blood to put over their doors, as described in Exodus chapter 12. That in itself was prophetic. That was plenty of time for all those little gee gods/fallen to plant seeds of their mythology, because these fallen ones knew that the eternal plan. So Jesus Christ came in the middle of time, to fulfill a seemingly impossible amount of Biblical prophecy, to show people that He was the true God.
https://firmisrael.org/learn/how-many-p ... s-fulfill/

So no, I cannot say that Jesus Christ's "entire life was simply a repetition and was doing exactly what the gods before Him did," because it was NOT!
Peeps wrote: May 23rd, 2023, 5:47 pmChrist IS the original source.
1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
Peeps, no one is denying Christ. In kindness, I think you have a big-time misunderstanding (skewed understanding) of the past and specifically of ancient world mythology. Durzan is correct, the origins are far older (THE BEGINNING OF TIME OLD! In fact, the myths, rituals, and symbols are most likely universal, meaning they are a part of ALL God's creations throughout the entire universe) but that doesn't take away from Christ in any way, in fact, it's the opposite... All things testify of God/Christ. It is a bedrock of truth that every sacred ritual, hero, myth, etc., has a divine model, an archetype! Yes, even Jesus Christ has an archetype. You clearly do not believe this and that is fine. To each his own.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." -John 5:19

Have you ever heard of Kolob? If what you are saying is true ( "little gee gods/fallen to plant seeds of mythology"), we can throw the JS POGP ("Egyptian" book of Abraham) which is totally encompassed in ancient world mythology/cosmology) into the trash? JS even told us what the Egyptians themselves believed what the myths, rituals, and symbols meant to them?? Is not the ancient MYTHOLOGICAL Egyptian sun god "Kolob" a type and shadow of Jesus Christ himself? Wasn't Satan also compared to a great star that ended up falling (falling star)? Why a star/planet? Are not John's revelations completely encompassed in ancient world mythology? Unequivocally yes. The same goes for the entire old testament (Joel, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.). Was Joseph Smith taking us back to the time of Jesus Christ (original time and source as you say) or was he trying to restore the original ancient order of things and take us all the way back to the beginning (Adam+Garden of Eden, Golden Age, etc. ) of time that proceeds Christ. He was attempting to take us all the way back to the Ancient of Days. Once again, thousands of years before Christ was born.

Let me also make something perfectly clear, the images/symbols of prophecy are the same images of world mythology and that's because it is the exact same story and 100% have a common origin. They are the same because they have the same origin! This is not a coincidence, it is an indisputable fact. For one of the hundreds of examples, you cannot understand the origins or the full meaning of the temple without being completely encompassed in ancient world mythology/cosmology. The temple is supposed to be a small/earthly scale of the ancient heavens is it not? Even the temple has a heavenly archetype. As it is above, so it is below. Did the temple originate during the time of Christ? No, it did not. Does that mean that both the heavenly archetype and the earthly construct fashioned after the heavenly archetype are false?

I see you are not a fan of nibley and thats fine. I quote him because he is LDS and one of the best comparative mythologist of our time. I would still highly recommend anything written by LDS comparative mythologist (one of the worlds leading comparative mythologists mind you) Hugh Nibley and all his works on ancient history. Start with one of his masterpieces TEMPLE AND COSMOS. There was a time when Nibley even would go to the salt lake temple and give lectures on the origins and meaning of the temple to the so-called apostles. Clearly, these ideas are not off base as you seem to believe.

When you degrade ancient world mythology you essentially are unbeknownst degrading all of Hebrew and the Jews most sacred myths, rituals, symbols, and stories. The creation, serpents, beasts, the fall, garden of Eden, atonement, resurrection, Noah's flood, kingship, the miracles and plagues of exodus, Tower of Babel, end of the world & global catastrophes, world comic mountain (Mt. Zion), Kolob, etc., etc., etc. So id be cautious before labeling things.

And one last thing, do you know the origins of the symbol "blood over the door" and what it represented? The origins are the exact same as the handkerchief and the hosanna shout. If you know the mythological origins then you would know the means God brought about the miracles and plagues of the exodus. The only way to come up with the answers is from those little gee gods/fallen to plant seeds of mythology. Go figure.

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Peeps »

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: May 24th, 2023, 6:53 pm...Have you ever heard of Kolob? If what you are saying is true ( "little gee gods/fallen to plant seeds of mythology"), we can throw the JS POGP ("Egyptian" book of Abraham) which is totally encompassed in ancient world mythology/cosmology) into the trash? JS even told us what the Egyptians themselves believed what the myths, rituals, and symbols meant to them?? Is not the ancient MYTHOLOGICAL Egyptian sun god "Kolob" a type and shadow of Jesus Christ himself? Wasn't Satan also compared to a great star that ended up falling (falling star)? Why a star/planet? Are not John's revelations completely encompassed in ancient world mythology? Unequivocally yes. The same goes for the entire old testament (Joel, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.). Was Joseph Smith taking us back to the time of Jesus Christ (original time and source as you say) or was he trying to restore the original ancient order of things and take us all the way back to the beginning (Adam+Garden of Eden, Golden Age, etc. ) of time that proceeds Christ. He was attempting to take us all the way back to the Ancient of Days. Once again, thousands of years before Christ was born...

Yes, I have heard of Kolob, and these are the sum of my thoughts on this subject and Joseph Smith.

...The Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Abraham, are legit with the caveat that the info about Kolob, the stars, probably came from the fallen angel Kokabel, and the part about the preexistence is told from Lucifer's perspective. Lucifer is the one who convinced us to leave our first estate to trap us in flesh bodies. Christ came to free us. The "translation" of the papyrus probably came from Masonic/or other secret societies' source-- the Masons, secret societies, etc., have much more access to "scriptures," if one could call these texts that, than average people....

viewtopic.php?p=1277152#p1277152

Our body has become the temple of God.
John 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

So there's no need to deeply contemplate the meaning of all those Luciferian symbols on the LDS temples, particularly SLC & Nauvoo, unless I want to receive "illumination" from the false "light bearer."

The "Golden Age" was when Satan/Lucifer ran the world, and can be read about in Ezekiel 28. And nothing proceeded Christ.

Colossians 1:16 "For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before ALL things, and by Him ALL things consist."
Spoiler
I believe we were the stones of fire on the Holy Mountain of God in Ezekiel chapter 28, or the "gnolaum" of Abraham 3, and we were deceived into taking on flesh bodies by Lucifer/Satan in the war in Heaven, and perhaps this started the war in the first place.

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; *thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.*
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the *midst of the stones of fire"*

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was also in the "midst" of the Garden of Eden, just as this entity described "as the anointed cherub that covereth" was in the midst of the stones of fire on God's Holy Mountain. Psalm 104 verse 4 says,  "Who maketh His angels spirits; *His ministers a flaming fire:* I believe he was in the midst of the stones of fire convincing them (or all of us rather) to taking on flesh bodies. Once that was accomplished, we were sent to the lowest parts of the earth as it says in Psalm 139: 15, "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

So when God put Adam and Eve in the Garden, He was starting His plan of redemption for all of us, a way for us to be born into mortality, and be given a clear choice to follow good or evil, which difference probably wasn't clear to us while we were in the presence of God, dwelling in His love and everlasting burnings.

Jesus even told the Pharisees that they came from below the earth. John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." Jesus came to pay for our sins we commit in these flesh & blood bodies with His perfect blood, fulfilling the laws and rules that are inherently included with flesh bodies, because the Father does not have a flesh body. He made His Word flesh to dwell among us, as it states in John 1:1-14.

We are like the youngest son in the parable who wanted his inheritance, left his father's house and squandered it, Jesus Christ was the "fatted calf" and the the older brother went into two groups afterward; they either stayed faithful, or they tried to sabotage the plan by corrupting the woman's seed that was to come and crush the serpent's seed (Jesus Christ), as recorded in Genesis chapter 6 with the giants/nephilim bloodlines. This caused Noah's flood.

We must get our fire back, by being Spiritually reborn. As Jesus described to Nicodemus in John 3: 8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

It is how we become stones again.

1 Peter 2:
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a *chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.*
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Last edited by Peeps on May 25th, 2023, 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

larsenb
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by larsenb »

Original_Intent wrote: September 25th, 2022, 12:48 am
creator wrote: September 24th, 2022, 7:19 pm Most religions have been repeating the same archetypal stories throughout history. Retelling the same stories in different ways, with varying details, but it all points back to Christ. It reveals how Christ is, and always has been, at the center of everything. The great I AM. The Word. The Way the Truth and the Light.

http://work.tree-of-life.dk/ThorAndSif.html
Long ago, Darren linked to a book that I have since been unable to find. There was something in it to suggest that Odin actually was intended to represent Christ, and Thor represented Heavenly Father. It was interesting and made a very good case for it, but I don't remember much.

I know that Odin hung on the world tree for three days and sacrificed one of his eyes to obtain wisdom.

I am of the same mind, that all religions tell much the same story. It reminds me of the meme of two armies fighting, one of them waving the flag of rabbit, and the other army under the banner of the duck (they were the same picture, just oriented differently.)
Maybe Darren will reply to your post here. He was and, I assume still is, a devotee of Bruce Wydner, who claims, based on his particular reading of history and the Norse legends in the original languages, that Christ visited the Norsemen and promulgated the Gospel among them. He sees the operation of the Guilds, as an offshoot of what they were taught, and as at least part of the proper way to conduct society.

He's been active as recently as April of this year.

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Niemand »

larsenb wrote: May 25th, 2023, 12:23 am Maybe Darren will reply to your post here. He was and, I assume still is, a devotee of Bruce Wydner, who claims, based on his particular reading of history and the Norse legends in the original languages, that Christ visited the Norsemen and promulgated the Gospel among them. He sees the operation of the Guilds, as an offshoot of what they were taught, and as at least part of the proper way to conduct society.

He's been active as recently as April of this year.
Worth pointing out that the Norse myths, as we have them, are heavily "contaminated" by later Christian contact. It is likely the Baldur story originally came about that way. By the point many were written down, they had met some Christian missionaries already and were trading and raiding Christian nations.

Celtic mythology is even more Christianised. Although it is possible to trace and detect older elements, it was mostly transcribed by Christian monks.

Ditto German mythology. This was like the Norse, but in a book such as the Nibelungenlied, which Wagner used as a partial basis for his operas, you see a heavily Christianised version. Some of the gods are turned into barons and people. Wagner had to go to the Norse version for a more pagan take, but even then. (See above.)

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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

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Satan gets kicked out of heaven just as Thor was kicked out. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/gnostic/

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Original_Intent
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by Original_Intent »

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
God does not depend upon mankind's worship, proper worship is for the benefit of man, it changes you.
A person who believes in the Force from Star Wars, and diligently tries to live in a proper, Christ-like way within that belief, is FAR better off than a person that believes that Christ is the true story, but doesn't live that way.
A person with a small amount of truth mixed with error, that is diligently applying the truth that they know, is in a much better place than someone with a vast understanding of correct gospel truth who "lives beneath their privileges."

Many Christians believe they can live as they like, and the blood of Christ will take care of all their faults.
Many non-Christians believe (and act) that we are required to make of earth, heaven.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Thor is Christ (Archetypes | Most religions are telling the same stories)

Post by SJR3t2 »

Original_Intent wrote: September 6th, 2023, 7:33 am The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
God does not depend upon mankind's worship, proper worship is for the benefit of man, it changes you.
A person who believes in the Force from Star Wars, and diligently tries to live in a proper, Christ-like way within that belief, is FAR better off than a person that believes that Christ is the true story, but doesn't live that way.
A person with a small amount of truth mixed with error, that is diligently applying the truth that they know, is in a much better place than someone with a vast understanding of correct gospel truth who "lives beneath their privileges."

Many Christians believe they can live as they like, and the blood of Christ will take care of all their faults.
Many non-Christians believe (and act) that we are required to make of earth, heaven.
The greatest thing we can do is choose to believe in Yeshua and His atoning sacrifice for us. If you deny Him you go to hell, if you accept Him you will get some glory. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/kingdom-of-heaven/

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