Killing of only the males shows that the Israelites were not practicing polygamy.

[FrankOne]

The point I'm making is against the Mormon concept of eternal marriage, period. The idea of pairing off in male female relationships, whether it be monogamously or polygamously, and doing our own thing, like populating your own planet, in the eternities, will probably not happen, and thereby, we will become gods ourselves. Jesus Christ even spoke directly against this idea of eternal marriage, yet LDS have twisted it.

Mark 12:
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

this ^ is a very curious statement by Christ.

the context makes it very compelling. As with all 'doctrine' all I can say is "I don't know". Whatever happens is God's will and that will be how it is. I"m sure there are plenty of mormon 'scholars' that have found a way to turn it into eternal marriage. I still use the term Mormon because I don't believe in being PC and modern propaganda.

I can't comprehend that we will be "as the angels" after the resurrection. Very odd to me due to my understanding of Angels....but...I guess we'll find out!

[Bronco73idi]

I have read, and you are implying things that are not there. And instead of addressing your logic you go somewhere else which is very your nature and claim I have not read what we have discussed before it seems your memory and understanding is bad.

I was trying to be nice, treating you like an equal….

So if ye read how the lord dealt with Sarai’s slave Hagar the Egyptian (what was Ham’s wife name, hint at Jospeh Smith letter on this subject)

Then we read how the lord dealt with David with and the death of Uriah

2 Samuel 12
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Doesn’t sound like how the lord dealt with Sarai….

You puff yourself up making videos of your interpretation of the Holy Scriptures but in such a simple example you greatly err….. If I were you I would repent of my lack of understanding of my Lord and God.

Your such a liar you don't ever try to play nice, you constantly put me and others down. FYI there is capital punishment. You are the one who errors, and you are the one with lack of understanding of YHWH Elohim. You have one or two things you just keep bringing up and mocking others in saying don't you know about this, when they are the only things in the scriputes you know and twist.

Gospel of Thomas
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will come to pass." Jesus said, "Then have you laid bare the beginning, so that you are seeking the end? For the end will be where the beginning is. Blessed is the person who stands at rest in the beginning. And that person will be acquainted with the end and will not taste death.”

Figure out the beginning, I have been hammering the beginning for a reason.

I’m being nice, I like being nice but no one listens.

Make their hearts fat.

[Bronco73idi]

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.

April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

I have views people would call racist. I reject modernity. I think a number of conspiracy theories have truth to them. But I don't feel USA slavery or Old Testament slavery (or any other basic concept of slavery) are not sin but I understand you view examples of it in the OT differently than I do, that coupled with views from Brigham (and as Luke posted, views from Joseph) play a role in your opinion. I agree with you that we are all slaves to the beast but I don't see how that means slavery isn't a sin which your question wondering if slavery is a sin is what prompted my response. Slavery and bondage have been used to teach lessons. We are slaves to Babylon, I agree entirely. I don't think those truths mean slavery isn't a sin. I truly don't mean to insult you. It wasn't my intention. I feel dissatisfaction with the scriptures. I don't feel they're clear enough to solve matters. You view them one way, I view them another way and I respect that.

I don’t plan on having slaves, I don’t desire to have any slaves. To me that is another burden.

Manservant and maidservant are mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments isn’t even the Ten Commandments. It’s “The Ten Sayings, The Ten Utterances”

We as Christians want a perfect world and a perfect religion that no one really works. We should all just do busy work and such.

I’m a blue collar worker and like my lord and savior I work with my hands.

Who do you think cared for the garden of Eden? A genie winkled her nose?

Jesus called the Old Testament “The Law”.

As you know this is my opinion and I hope you are comforted in the scriptures one day. I find if you truly don’t need the scriptures to fit anything more then the actual words that are written you will find so much more truth in them. The truth will set you free.

[FrankOne]

I was trying to be nice, treating you like an equal….

So if ye read how the lord dealt with Sarai’s slave Hagar the Egyptian (what was Ham’s wife name, hint at Jospeh Smith letter on this subject)

Then we read how the lord dealt with David with and the death of Uriah

2 Samuel 12
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Doesn’t sound like how the lord dealt with Sarai….

You puff yourself up making videos of your interpretation of the Holy Scriptures but in such a simple example you greatly err….. If I were you I would repent of my lack of understanding of my Lord and God.

Your such a liar you don't ever try to play nice, you constantly put me and others down. FYI there is capital punishment. You are the one who errors, and you are the one with lack of understanding of YHWH Elohim. You have one or two things you just keep bringing up and mocking others in saying don't you know about this, when they are the only things in the scriputes you know and twist.

Gospel of Thomas
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will come to pass." Jesus said, "Then have you laid bare the beginning, so that you are seeking the end? For the end will be where the beginning is. Blessed is the person who stands at rest in the beginning. And that person will be acquainted with the end and will not taste death.”

Figure out the beginning, I have been hammering the beginning for a reason.

I’m being nice, I like being nice but no one listens.

Make their hearts fat.

dunno... I think I listen .

The end at the beginning. Exactly.
But who wants to go backwards? Anyone?
Most want a crown, a throne, a brownie button, and a sign over their chair that says "I am special".
We are as special as a newborn baby. That's it and that's all. But who will go back to being a non-judging open book?
Perfect is always perfect but it can be covered up in piles of baggage. (adult-ery)

[Bronco73idi]

Your such a liar you don't ever try to play nice, you constantly put me and others down. FYI there is capital punishment. You are the one who errors, and you are the one with lack of understanding of YHWH Elohim. You have one or two things you just keep bringing up and mocking others in saying don't you know about this, when they are the only things in the scriputes you know and twist.

Gospel of Thomas
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will come to pass." Jesus said, "Then have you laid bare the beginning, so that you are seeking the end? For the end will be where the beginning is. Blessed is the person who stands at rest in the beginning. And that person will be acquainted with the end and will not taste death.”

Figure out the beginning, I have been hammering the beginning for a reason.

I’m being nice, I like being nice but no one listens.

Make their hearts fat.

dunno... I think I listen .

The end at the beginning. Exactly.
But who wants to go backwards? Anyone?
Most want a crown, a throne, a brownie button, and a sign over their chair that says "I am special".
We are as special as a newborn baby. That's it and that's all. But who will go back to being a non-judging open book?
Perfect is always perfect but it can be covered up in piles of baggage. (adult-ery)

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

[Luke]

No offense (and I really mean that) but days ago I saw Alexander's post and I KNEW, I KNEW a polygamy peddler (and no offense to them, looking at the matter objectively, I don't think scripture is clear enough either way on the matter and I find that terribly odd) was going to go there with this kind of response. I'm sure others are thinking "yup, damn right. It's in the Old Testament. Slavery is of God."

Caricatures and stereotypes are really caricatures and stereotypes for a reason.

Brother O. Cowdery:
Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.
Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.
I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.
No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that th latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?
And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?
So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.
And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!
After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.12
Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.
I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.
Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.
Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.
This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.—The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.
The same wrier, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.
Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.
Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.
JOSEPH SMITH, jr.

(Joseph Smith, Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836, pg. 289-291, JSP; Messenger and Advocate 2:289-291 #7, April 1836)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1

Later Joseph called for the national liberation and equalization of Negroes…

True, but it doesn’t negate what he said here. Since he said here that “a power as great as caused it to come must take it away”, he probably understood that God was behind him (he was running for President, instituted the Council of Fifty, etc.). It wasn’t for anyone but God to take away that curse.

[SJR3t2]

April fool, conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, anti semitic, etc etc… All offensive words to mock one to change a behavior.

I personally think we are all slaves to the beast, we were born slaves.

Are the children not free? Let us not offend.

I have views people would call racist. I reject modernity. I think a number of conspiracy theories have truth to them. But I don't feel USA slavery or Old Testament slavery (or any other basic concept of slavery) are not sin but I understand you view examples of it in the OT differently than I do, that coupled with views from Brigham (and as Luke posted, views from Joseph) play a role in your opinion. I agree with you that we are all slaves to the beast but I don't see how that means slavery isn't a sin which your question wondering if slavery is a sin is what prompted my response. Slavery and bondage have been used to teach lessons. We are slaves to Babylon, I agree entirely. I don't think those truths mean slavery isn't a sin. I truly don't mean to insult you. It wasn't my intention. I feel dissatisfaction with the scriptures. I don't feel they're clear enough to solve matters. You view them one way, I view them another way and I respect that.

I don’t plan on having slaves, I don’t desire to have any slaves. To me that is another burden.

Manservant and maidservant are mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments isn’t even the Ten Commandments. It’s “The Ten Sayings, The Ten Utterances”

We as Christians want a perfect world and a perfect religion that no one really works. We should all just do busy work and such.

I’m a blue collar worker and like my lord and savior I work with my hands.

Who do you think cared for the garden of Eden? A genie winkled her nose?

Jesus called the Old Testament “The Law”.

As you know this is my opinion and I hope you are comforted in the scriptures one day. I find if you truly don’t need the scriptures to fit anything more then the actual words that are written you will find so much more truth in them. The truth will set you free.

I believe in the scriptures I don't believe in your twisted interpretations. FYI maidservant and manservant is not a slave check Torah on that ...

[FrankOne]

Gospel of Thomas
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will come to pass." Jesus said, "Then have you laid bare the beginning, so that you are seeking the end? For the end will be where the beginning is. Blessed is the person who stands at rest in the beginning. And that person will be acquainted with the end and will not taste death.”

Figure out the beginning, I have been hammering the beginning for a reason.

I’m being nice, I like being nice but no one listens.

Make their hearts fat.

dunno... I think I listen .

The end at the beginning. Exactly.
But who wants to go backwards? Anyone?
Most want a crown, a throne, a brownie button, and a sign over their chair that says "I am special".
We are as special as a newborn baby. That's it and that's all. But who will go back to being a non-judging open book?
Perfect is always perfect but it can be covered up in piles of baggage. (adult-ery)

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

[SJR3t2]

dunno... I think I listen .

The end at the beginning. Exactly.
But who wants to go backwards? Anyone?
Most want a crown, a throne, a brownie button, and a sign over their chair that says "I am special".
We are as special as a newborn baby. That's it and that's all. But who will go back to being a non-judging open book?
Perfect is always perfect but it can be covered up in piles of baggage. (adult-ery)

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 5:46-47
A 46 For had ye believed Moses,
B ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
A 47 But if ye believe not his writings,
B how shall ye believe my words?

1 Nephi (LDS 19:23) (RLDS 6:3-5) And I did read many things unto them which were written in the BOOKS OF MOSES; but that I might more FULLY PERSUADE them to BELIEVE in the LORD [YHWH] their REDEEMER I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.


BoM shows Torah, not law of Moses, is still valid today after the resurrection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

[FrankOne]

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 5:46-47
A 46 For had ye believed Moses,
B ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
A 47 But if ye believe not his writings,
B how shall ye believe my words?

1 Nephi (LDS 19:23) (RLDS 6:3-5) And I did read many things unto them which were written in the BOOKS OF MOSES; but that I might more FULLY PERSUADE them to BELIEVE in the LORD [YHWH] their REDEEMER I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.


BoM shows Torah, not law of Moses, is still valid today after the resurrection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

a beautiful part of this life is that i can reject your perspective and rely on my own. I will suffer from my poor choices as will all of us. We live and we learn.

[SJR3t2]

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 5:46-47
A 46 For had ye believed Moses,
B ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
A 47 But if ye believe not his writings,
B how shall ye believe my words?

1 Nephi (LDS 19:23) (RLDS 6:3-5) And I did read many things unto them which were written in the BOOKS OF MOSES; but that I might more FULLY PERSUADE them to BELIEVE in the LORD [YHWH] their REDEEMER I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.


BoM shows Torah, not law of Moses, is still valid today after the resurrection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

a beautiful part of this life is that i can reject your perspective and rely on my own. I will suffer from my poor choices as will all of us. We live and we learn.

YHWH gave us agency to do as we please, but we do not get to escape the consequences of that. For a site to talk about YHWH's ways, it's sad this is your response instead of discussing the scriptures, but your right it's your right to do what you want, I never said it wasn't.

[Bronco73idi]

I have views people would call racist. I reject modernity. I think a number of conspiracy theories have truth to them. But I don't feel USA slavery or Old Testament slavery (or any other basic concept of slavery) are not sin but I understand you view examples of it in the OT differently than I do, that coupled with views from Brigham (and as Luke posted, views from Joseph) play a role in your opinion. I agree with you that we are all slaves to the beast but I don't see how that means slavery isn't a sin which your question wondering if slavery is a sin is what prompted my response. Slavery and bondage have been used to teach lessons. We are slaves to Babylon, I agree entirely. I don't think those truths mean slavery isn't a sin. I truly don't mean to insult you. It wasn't my intention. I feel dissatisfaction with the scriptures. I don't feel they're clear enough to solve matters. You view them one way, I view them another way and I respect that.

I don’t plan on having slaves, I don’t desire to have any slaves. To me that is another burden.

Manservant and maidservant are mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments isn’t even the Ten Commandments. It’s “The Ten Sayings, The Ten Utterances”

We as Christians want a perfect world and a perfect religion that no one really works. We should all just do busy work and such.

I’m a blue collar worker and like my lord and savior I work with my hands.

Who do you think cared for the garden of Eden? A genie winkled her nose?

Jesus called the Old Testament “The Law”.

As you know this is my opinion and I hope you are comforted in the scriptures one day. I find if you truly don’t need the scriptures to fit anything more then the actual words that are written you will find so much more truth in them. The truth will set you free.

I believe in the scriptures I don't believe in your twisted interpretations. FYI maidservant and manservant is not a slave check Torah on that ...

Educated me, did Sarai purchase her handmaid?

Does The lord talk about purchasing maid and man servants in the Bible? It isn’t in the New Testament.

[SJR3t2]

I don’t plan on having slaves, I don’t desire to have any slaves. To me that is another burden.

Manservant and maidservant are mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments isn’t even the Ten Commandments. It’s “The Ten Sayings, The Ten Utterances”

We as Christians want a perfect world and a perfect religion that no one really works. We should all just do busy work and such.

I’m a blue collar worker and like my lord and savior I work with my hands.

Who do you think cared for the garden of Eden? A genie winkled her nose?

Jesus called the Old Testament “The Law”.

As you know this is my opinion and I hope you are comforted in the scriptures one day. I find if you truly don’t need the scriptures to fit anything more then the actual words that are written you will find so much more truth in them. The truth will set you free.

I believe in the scriptures I don't believe in your twisted interpretations. FYI maidservant and manservant is not a slave check Torah on that ...

Educated me, did Sarai purchase her handmaid?

Does The lord talk about purchasing maid and man servants in the Bible? It isn’t in the New Testament.

I gave you some things to look into and you ignored, you don't want education you want justification of what you already believe.

[Bronco73idi]

dunno... I think I listen .

The end at the beginning. Exactly.
But who wants to go backwards? Anyone?
Most want a crown, a throne, a brownie button, and a sign over their chair that says "I am special".
We are as special as a newborn baby. That's it and that's all. But who will go back to being a non-judging open book?
Perfect is always perfect but it can be covered up in piles of baggage. (adult-ery)

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

Think of me as an autistic kid who says “No, there is only two sexes in biology!”

Moses was meek, so meek that he was going to die for cowarding down to his wife. She didn’t want to circumcise her sons. The traditions of her gentile family. She knew exactly what would save Moses so she circumcised her sons herself and threw it at Moses feet and he did not die. Exodus 4:24-26

You are right Jesus has the right to judge us, he taught his own father when his father went through the vail, Thomas 15. He is the word, John 1:1-3

His father would not let him judge in his earthly mission. John 8:26


We are damned!!! Isaiah 24:5

“because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.”

Why won’t anyone who preach, type, love love love, teach the everlasting covenant?

Who am I? Clumpy dirt, if I was fine dust then I wouldn’t be here…..

[Bronco73idi]

I believe in the scriptures I don't believe in your twisted interpretations. FYI maidservant and manservant is not a slave check Torah on that ...

Educated me, did Sarai purchase her handmaid?

Does The lord talk about purchasing maid and man servants in the Bible? It isn’t in the New Testament.

I gave you some things to look into and you ignored, you don't want education you want justification of what you already believe.

You gave me your opinion, hot air!

Torah Exodus 21:7 does not agree with you.

[SJR3t2]

Educated me, did Sarai purchase her handmaid?

Does The lord talk about purchasing maid and man servants in the Bible? It isn’t in the New Testament.

I gave you some things to look into and you ignored, you don't want education you want justification of what you already believe.

You gave me your opinion, hot air!

Torah Exodus 21:7 does not agree with you.

um, you don't know Torah and you take one verse and twist it. You wonder why I don't like engaging with you? Could it be the way you have treated me and how you only use one or two verse and ignore the rest?

[SJR3t2]

Should we come out of the womb prophesying like Jeremiah?

If there was no evil there would be no condemnation.

If we don’t love ourself enough to tell ourself no then how can we love our neighbors righteously?

If our love for our neighbor offends them, turn the other cheek.

Luke 12
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

there is no getting away from our using scriptures (God's word) to validate our points....I do it too...and I have to laugh at myself for it....So, I'll preface my quote with these words: We all have our idea of what "truth" is and , ya know.... , we're all where we are and we're all heading home as we walk, each of us having a different idea of what each flower next to our road means and smells like.

On this point, we don't share the same perspective. I just go with what Christ says here and I put blinders on to all the other scriptures regarding this subject. It's what I want to do because these words match my own experiences, which , of course are subjective.

Christ's words :

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

And then later in this chapter, he describes how he judges men,.

John 5:45
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

It is my perspective that the way of Moses was good for it's time . Men needed to be slammed with judgment because they didn't understand anything else but guilt and punishment in order to be motivated to do good.

But..in my point of view, Christ introduced a new way of understanding. From what Christ said above, it doesn't appear that Christ had much respect for the ways of Moses. ...(at least that is my perspective of those words).

To really try to relate this in what I'm saying, please keep in mind that I am not referring to using judgment to decide whether doing harm to my neighbor is right or wrong, I am referring to judging others as "bad" for making errors. Christ forgives all, doesn't he? I believe he does because if he doesn't , we're all doomed.

Mathew 18:3 - Christs words.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What are the attributes of little children so that we may become as they are .... for if we don't..... we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

Think of me as an autistic kid who says “No, there is only two sexes in biology!”

Moses was meek, so meek that he was going to die for cowarding down to his wife. She didn’t want to circumcise her sons. The traditions of her gentile family. She knew exactly what would save Moses so she circumcised her sons herself and threw it at Moses feet and he did not die. Exodus 4:24-26

You are right Jesus has the right to judge us, he taught his own father when his father went through the vail, Thomas 15. He is the word, John 1:1-3

His father would not let him judge in his earthly mission. John 8:26


We are damned!!! Isaiah 24:5

“because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.”

Why won’t anyone who preach, type, love love love, teach the everlasting covenant?

Who am I? Clumpy dirt, if I was fine dust then I wouldn’t be here…..

wow you can quote a lot of stuff unrelated to what we are talking about. Good bye.

[Bronco73idi]

I gave you some things to look into and you ignored, you don't want education you want justification of what you already believe.

You gave me your opinion, hot air!

Torah Exodus 21:7 does not agree with you.

um, you don't know Torah and you take one verse and twist it. You wonder why I don't like engaging with you? Could it be the way you have treated me and how you only use one or two verse and ignore the rest?

The whole reason that we are talking is because you are engaging me lol!

I asked Alex a question, not you…..