The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

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marc
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The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

In Ether chapter 3, Jesus Christ defined redemption:

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Because of the Fall, Adam (and Eve) were removed from Jesus Christ's presence. Because of His Atonement, we may become redeemed from the Fall and brought back into His presence.

I would like to devote this topic to writing about, talking about, and praying for our Savior to fulfill this promise already. And maybe if we become more mindful of this we might gain heaven's attention. Please only reply if you have something to share about the subject of Zion and the redemption of Zion only. Thank you.

Moses 7:18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

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marc
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

Isaiah 14:32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

Lord, please found Zion! Let her worthy children be gathered and redeemed never to fall away again!

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tmac
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by tmac »

Marc, I like where you’re going with this. From my perspective at this point, it has become clear to me that Zion is not going to happen until the Lord calls, anoints, and empowers a leader, like unto Moses, to take the lead. Until we see such a leader emerge, it just kind of feels like we’re floundering around in a seemingly endless, but rapidly deteriorating holding pattern/wilderness.
Last edited by tmac on April 1st, 2023, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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marc
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

More and more like-minded folks are waking up and being drawn to each other. I've found a few new like-mind friends on Facebook, on this forum, and another place or two. As these "Zion minded/hearted" people mature, maybe there will be enough to be finally be gathered up somewhere to begin thriving. I believe there have to be enough people to make this happen. I am drawn to people who are completely selfless, who strive to be "perfect" as our taught in His sermon on the mount, etc. These are folks who are likely enduring their personal wilderness before He brings us to the promised land, so to speak.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by An Eye Single »

marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:17 pm D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Great topic! Here are some questions that come to mind:

power: In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in some thing; ability or strength.

So, what is this power? Whose is it? Why is it necessary for the Lord to “raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel”? In what way(s) will this man lead the children of Israel? Who are “the children of Israel?” Who are “seed of Abraham?” What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?

Nice chiasmus with “redemption of Zion” and “power.” Also nice to think about how Zion needs to be created spiritually, first, and then temporally. If you see the chiasmus through that lens, there is a lot to be gained there.

Also interesting are the differences in verses 19 and 20:

angel—>angels
“not my presence”—>”also my presence”

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marc
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

An Eye Single wrote: April 1st, 2023, 9:25 pm
marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:17 pm D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Great topic! Here are some questions that come to mind:

power: In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in some thing; ability or strength.

So, what is this power? Whose is it? Why is it necessary for the Lord to “raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel”? In what way(s) will this man lead the children of Israel? Who are “the children of Israel?” Who are “seed of Abraham?” What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?

Nice chiasmus with “redemption of Zion” and “power.” Also nice to think about how Zion needs to be created spiritually, first, and then temporally. If you see the chiasmus through that lens, there is a lot to be gained there.

Also interesting are the differences in verses 19 and 20:

angel—>angels
“not my presence”—>”also my presence”
Great observation! Who are the children of Israel? I believe in this context (although Israel is still spread all over the world) the Lord is referring to the saints, primarily grafted Ephraim and those they gather to themselves. He prepared the Book of Mormon for them through Joseph Smith. And by extension today, I believe most of them live in the "Mountains of Ephraim" or up here in Utah and Idaho in the tops of the mountains. I'm also drawing from Isaiah. And what is this power? Well, this man, wherever he is will emerge sooner or later with power a la Enoch as written in JST Genesis 14. This is is all an educated guess based on scriptural patterns. Once this man leads this people as Moses to wherever they're supposed to settle down, people from all over (believers and seekers) will be drawn there, especially those who don't want to be part of all the fighting in Babylon. They must needs flee unto Zion for they will be the only people not at war one with another.

JST Genesis 14:30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

endlessQuestions
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by endlessQuestions »

My most sincere prayer is that enough people will repent that God can aid us in building Zion.

I don’t even care if I’m good enough to make it in.

I just want there to be a safe place for anyone who IS good enough.

Bless those who are seeking this. I pray for your success.

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Luke
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Luke »

The title of this thread reminded me of Joseph Smith's prayer for the redemption of Zion.

Here is a letter from Joseph Smith concerning Zion, her afflictions, and redemption. In bold is Joseph's prayer for the redemption of Zion:

------------------------------------

Kirtland Mills, Ohio,

December 10, 1833.

Edward Partridge, W. W. Phelps, John Whitmer, A. S. Gilbert, John Corrill, Isaac Morley, and all the Saints whom it may concern.

Beloved Brethren:—This morning’s mail brought letters from Bishop Partridge, and Elders Corrill and Phelps, all mailed at Liberty, November 19th, which gave us the melancholy intelligence of your flight from the land of your inheritance, having been driven before the face of your enemies in that place.

From previous letters we learned that a number of our brethren had been slain, but we could not learn from the letters referred to above, that there had been more than one killed, and that one Brother Barber, and that Brother Dibble was wounded in the bowels. We were thankful to learn that no more had been slain, and our daily prayers are that the Lord will not suffer His Saints, who have gone up to His land to keep His commandments, to stain His holy mountain with their blood.

I cannot learn from any communication by the Spirit to me, that Zion has forfeited her claim to a celestial crown, notwithstanding the Lord has caused her to be thus afflicted, except it may be some individuals, who have walked in disobedience, and forsaken the new covenant; all such will be made manifest by their works in due time. I have always expected that Zion would suffer some affliction, from what I could learn from the commandments which have been given. But I would remind you of a certain clause in one which says, that after much tribulation cometh the blessing. 2 By this, and also others, and also one received of late, I know that Zion, in the due time of the Lord, will be redeemed; but how many will be the days of her purification, tribulation, and affliction, the Lord has kept hid from my eyes; and when I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is: Be still, and know that I am God! all those who suffer for my name shall reign with me, and he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again.

Now, there are two things of which I am ignorant; and the Lord will not show them unto me, perhaps for a wise purpose in Himself—I mean in some respects—and they are these: Why God has suffered so great a calamity to come upon Zion, and what the great moving cause of this great affliction is; and again, by what means He will return her back to her inheritance, with songs of everlasting joy upon her head. These two things, brethren, are in part kept back that they are not plainly shown unto me; but there are some things that are plainly manifest which have incurred the displeasure of the Almighty. When I contemplate upon all things that have been manifested, I am aware that I ought not to murmur, and do not murmur, only in this, that those who are innocent are compelled to suffer for the iniquities of the guilty; and I cannot account for this, only on this wise, that the saying of the Savior has not been strictly observed: “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; or if thy right arm offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee.” Now the fact is, if any of the members of our body is disordered, the rest of our body will be affected with it, and then all are brought into bondage together; and yet, notwithstanding all this, it is with difficulty that I can restrain my feelings when I know that you, my brethren, with whom I have had so many happy hours—sitting, as it were, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus; and also, having the witness which I feel, and ever have felt, of the purity of your motives—are cast out, and are as strangers and pilgrims on the earth, exposed to hunger, cold, nakedness, peril, sword—I say when I contemplate this, it is with difficulty I can keep from complaining and murmuring against this dispensation; but I am sensible that this is not right, and may God grant that notwithstanding your great afflictions and sufferings, there may not anything separate us from love of Christ.

Brethren, when we learn your sufferings, it awakens every sympathy of our hearts; it weighs us down; we cannot refrain from tears, yet, we are not able to realize, only in part, your sufferings: and I often hear the brethren saying, they wish they were with you, that they might bear a part of your sufferings; and I myself should have been with you, had not God prevented it in the order of His providence, that the yoke of affliction might be less grievous upon you, God having forewarned me, concerning these things, for your sake; and also, Elder Cowdery could not lighten your afflictions by tarrying longer with you, for his presence would have so much the more enraged your enemies; therefore God hath dealt mercifully with us. O brethren, let us be thankful that it is as well with us as it is, and we are yet alive and preadventure, God hath laid up in store great good for us in this generation, and may grant that we may yet glorify His name.

I feel thankful that there have no more denied the faith; I pray God in the name of Jesus that you all may be kept in the faith unto the end; let your sufferings be what they may, it is better in the eyes of God that you should die, than that you should give up the land of Zion, the inheritances which you have purchased with your moneys; for every man that giveth not up his inheritance, though he should die, yet, when the Lord shall come, he shall stand upon it, and with Job in his flesh he shall see God. Therefore, this is my counsel, that you retain your lands, even unto the uttermost, and employ every lawful means to seek redress of your enemies; and pray to God, day and night, to return you in peace and in safety to the lands of your inheritance: and when the judge fail you, appeal unto the executive; and when the executive fail you, appeal unto the president; and when the president fail you, and all laws fail you, and the humanity of the people fail you, and all things else fail you but God alone, and you continue to weary Him with your importunings, as the poor woman did the unjust judge, He will not fail to execute judgment upon your enemies, and to avenge His own elect that cry unto Him day and night.

Behold He will not fail you! He will come with ten thousand of His Saints, and all His adversaries shall be destroyed with the breath of His lips! All those who keep their inheritances, notwithstanding they should be beaten and driven, shall be likened unto the wise virgins who took oil in their lamps. But all those who are unbelieving and fearful, will be likened unto the foolish virgins, who took no oil in their lamps: and when they shall return and say unto the Saints, Give us of your lands—behold, there will be no room found for them. As respects giving deeds, I would advise you to give deeds as far as the brethren have legal and just claims for them, and then let every man answer to God for the disposal of them.

I would suggest some ideas to Elder Phelps, not knowing that they will be of any real benefit, but suggest them for consideration. I would be glad if he were here, were it possible for him to come, but dare not advise, not knowing what shall befall us, as we are under very heavy and serious threatenings from a great many people in this place.

But, perhaps, the people in Liberty may feel willing, God having power to soften the hearts of all men, to have a press established there; and if not, in some other place; any place where it can be the most convenient, and it is possible to get to it; God will be willing to have it in any place where it can be established in safety. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Again, I desire that Elder Phelps should collect all the information, and give us a true history of the beginning and rise of Zion, and her calamities.

Now hear the prayer of your unworthy brother in the new and everlasting covenant:—O My God! Thou who hast called and chosen a few, through Thy weak instrument, by commandment, and sent them to Missouri, a place which Thou didst call Zion, and commanded Thy servants to consecrate it unto Thyself for a place of refuge and safety for the gathering of Thy Saints, to be built up a holy city unto Thyself; and as Thou hast said that no other place should be appointed like unto this, therefore, I ask Thee in the name of Jesus Christ, to return Thy people unto their houses and their inheritances, to enjoy the fruit of their labors; that all the waste places may be built up; that all the enemies of Thy people, who will not repent and turn unto Thee may be destroyed from off the face of the land; and let a house be built and established unto Thy name; and let all the losses that Thy people have sustained, be rewarded unto them, even more than four-fold, that the borders of Zion may be enlarged forever; and let her be established no more to be thrown down; and let all thy Saints, when they are scattered, as sheep, and are persecuted, flee unto Zion, and be established in the midst of her; and let her be organized according to Thy law; and let this prayer ever be recorded before Thy face. Give Thy Holy Spirit unto my brethren, unto whom I write; send Thine angels to guard them, and deliver them from all evil; and when they turn their faces toward Zion, and bow down before Thee and pray, may their sins never come up before Thy face, neither have place in the book of Thy remembrance; and may they depart from all their iniquities. Provide food for them as Thou doest for the ravens; provide clothing to cover their nakedness, and houses that they may dwell therein; give unto them friends in abundance, and let their names be recorded in the Lamb’s book of life eternally before Thy face. Amen.

Finally, brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all until His coming in His kingdom. Amen.

Joseph Smith, Jun.

(DHC 1:453-456)

endlessQuestions
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by endlessQuestions »

Luke wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 6:19 am The title of this thread reminded me of Joseph Smith's prayer for the redemption of Zion.

Here is a letter from Joseph Smith concerning Zion, her afflictions, and redemption. In bold is Joseph's prayer for the redemption of Zion:

------------------------------------

Kirtland Mills, Ohio,

December 10, 1833.

Edward Partridge, W. W. Phelps, John Whitmer, A. S. Gilbert, John Corrill, Isaac Morley, and all the Saints whom it may concern.

Beloved Brethren:—This morning’s mail brought letters from Bishop Partridge, and Elders Corrill and Phelps, all mailed at Liberty, November 19th, which gave us the melancholy intelligence of your flight from the land of your inheritance, having been driven before the face of your enemies in that place.

From previous letters we learned that a number of our brethren had been slain, but we could not learn from the letters referred to above, that there had been more than one killed, and that one Brother Barber, and that Brother Dibble was wounded in the bowels. We were thankful to learn that no more had been slain, and our daily prayers are that the Lord will not suffer His Saints, who have gone up to His land to keep His commandments, to stain His holy mountain with their blood.

I cannot learn from any communication by the Spirit to me, that Zion has forfeited her claim to a celestial crown, notwithstanding the Lord has caused her to be thus afflicted, except it may be some individuals, who have walked in disobedience, and forsaken the new covenant; all such will be made manifest by their works in due time. I have always expected that Zion would suffer some affliction, from what I could learn from the commandments which have been given. But I would remind you of a certain clause in one which says, that after much tribulation cometh the blessing. 2 By this, and also others, and also one received of late, I know that Zion, in the due time of the Lord, will be redeemed; but how many will be the days of her purification, tribulation, and affliction, the Lord has kept hid from my eyes; and when I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is: Be still, and know that I am God! all those who suffer for my name shall reign with me, and he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again.

Now, there are two things of which I am ignorant; and the Lord will not show them unto me, perhaps for a wise purpose in Himself—I mean in some respects—and they are these: Why God has suffered so great a calamity to come upon Zion, and what the great moving cause of this great affliction is; and again, by what means He will return her back to her inheritance, with songs of everlasting joy upon her head. These two things, brethren, are in part kept back that they are not plainly shown unto me; but there are some things that are plainly manifest which have incurred the displeasure of the Almighty. When I contemplate upon all things that have been manifested, I am aware that I ought not to murmur, and do not murmur, only in this, that those who are innocent are compelled to suffer for the iniquities of the guilty; and I cannot account for this, only on this wise, that the saying of the Savior has not been strictly observed: “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; or if thy right arm offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee.” Now the fact is, if any of the members of our body is disordered, the rest of our body will be affected with it, and then all are brought into bondage together; and yet, notwithstanding all this, it is with difficulty that I can restrain my feelings when I know that you, my brethren, with whom I have had so many happy hours—sitting, as it were, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus; and also, having the witness which I feel, and ever have felt, of the purity of your motives—are cast out, and are as strangers and pilgrims on the earth, exposed to hunger, cold, nakedness, peril, sword—I say when I contemplate this, it is with difficulty I can keep from complaining and murmuring against this dispensation; but I am sensible that this is not right, and may God grant that notwithstanding your great afflictions and sufferings, there may not anything separate us from love of Christ.

Brethren, when we learn your sufferings, it awakens every sympathy of our hearts; it weighs us down; we cannot refrain from tears, yet, we are not able to realize, only in part, your sufferings: and I often hear the brethren saying, they wish they were with you, that they might bear a part of your sufferings; and I myself should have been with you, had not God prevented it in the order of His providence, that the yoke of affliction might be less grievous upon you, God having forewarned me, concerning these things, for your sake; and also, Elder Cowdery could not lighten your afflictions by tarrying longer with you, for his presence would have so much the more enraged your enemies; therefore God hath dealt mercifully with us. O brethren, let us be thankful that it is as well with us as it is, and we are yet alive and preadventure, God hath laid up in store great good for us in this generation, and may grant that we may yet glorify His name.

I feel thankful that there have no more denied the faith; I pray God in the name of Jesus that you all may be kept in the faith unto the end; let your sufferings be what they may, it is better in the eyes of God that you should die, than that you should give up the land of Zion, the inheritances which you have purchased with your moneys; for every man that giveth not up his inheritance, though he should die, yet, when the Lord shall come, he shall stand upon it, and with Job in his flesh he shall see God. Therefore, this is my counsel, that you retain your lands, even unto the uttermost, and employ every lawful means to seek redress of your enemies; and pray to God, day and night, to return you in peace and in safety to the lands of your inheritance: and when the judge fail you, appeal unto the executive; and when the executive fail you, appeal unto the president; and when the president fail you, and all laws fail you, and the humanity of the people fail you, and all things else fail you but God alone, and you continue to weary Him with your importunings, as the poor woman did the unjust judge, He will not fail to execute judgment upon your enemies, and to avenge His own elect that cry unto Him day and night.

Behold He will not fail you! He will come with ten thousand of His Saints, and all His adversaries shall be destroyed with the breath of His lips! All those who keep their inheritances, notwithstanding they should be beaten and driven, shall be likened unto the wise virgins who took oil in their lamps. But all those who are unbelieving and fearful, will be likened unto the foolish virgins, who took no oil in their lamps: and when they shall return and say unto the Saints, Give us of your lands—behold, there will be no room found for them. As respects giving deeds, I would advise you to give deeds as far as the brethren have legal and just claims for them, and then let every man answer to God for the disposal of them.

I would suggest some ideas to Elder Phelps, not knowing that they will be of any real benefit, but suggest them for consideration. I would be glad if he were here, were it possible for him to come, but dare not advise, not knowing what shall befall us, as we are under very heavy and serious threatenings from a great many people in this place.

But, perhaps, the people in Liberty may feel willing, God having power to soften the hearts of all men, to have a press established there; and if not, in some other place; any place where it can be the most convenient, and it is possible to get to it; God will be willing to have it in any place where it can be established in safety. We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Again, I desire that Elder Phelps should collect all the information, and give us a true history of the beginning and rise of Zion, and her calamities.

Now hear the prayer of your unworthy brother in the new and everlasting covenant:—O My God! Thou who hast called and chosen a few, through Thy weak instrument, by commandment, and sent them to Missouri, a place which Thou didst call Zion, and commanded Thy servants to consecrate it unto Thyself for a place of refuge and safety for the gathering of Thy Saints, to be built up a holy city unto Thyself; and as Thou hast said that no other place should be appointed like unto this, therefore, I ask Thee in the name of Jesus Christ, to return Thy people unto their houses and their inheritances, to enjoy the fruit of their labors; that all the waste places may be built up; that all the enemies of Thy people, who will not repent and turn unto Thee may be destroyed from off the face of the land; and let a house be built and established unto Thy name; and let all the losses that Thy people have sustained, be rewarded unto them, even more than four-fold, that the borders of Zion may be enlarged forever; and let her be established no more to be thrown down; and let all thy Saints, when they are scattered, as sheep, and are persecuted, flee unto Zion, and be established in the midst of her; and let her be organized according to Thy law; and let this prayer ever be recorded before Thy face. Give Thy Holy Spirit unto my brethren, unto whom I write; send Thine angels to guard them, and deliver them from all evil; and when they turn their faces toward Zion, and bow down before Thee and pray, may their sins never come up before Thy face, neither have place in the book of Thy remembrance; and may they depart from all their iniquities. Provide food for them as Thou doest for the ravens; provide clothing to cover their nakedness, and houses that they may dwell therein; give unto them friends in abundance, and let their names be recorded in the Lamb’s book of life eternally before Thy face. Amen.

Finally, brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all until His coming in His kingdom. Amen.

Joseph Smith, Jun.

(DHC 1:453-456)
Now that’s good research.

Thanks, Luke.

Dave62
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Posts: 1323
Location: Rural Australia

Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Dave62 »

endlessQuestions wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 6:10 am My most sincere prayer is that enough people will repent that God can aid us in building Zion.

I don’t even care if I’m good enough to make it in.

I just want there to be a safe place for anyone who IS good enough.

Bless those who are seeking this. I pray for your success.
You must never say that, Endless. The Saviour is the one who is 'good enough'. If you choose, he will wash you clean with his blood, and annoint you, just like we practise in the temple. He will clothe you with the robe of his righteousness, and give you his name for a new name, just like we practise in the temple. Then he will lead you into Zion, just like we practise in the temple. If you choose, you are always 'good enough' to go to Zion because of Jesus.

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tmac
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by tmac »

I have a hard time thinking that anyone is “worthy” of Zion, and that anyone will be there except they first go through a serious refiners fire.

From my perspective, the two most essential ingredients that have been missing up to this point are a leader like unto Moses, and a serious refiners fire. Without those two essential ingredients, I think we’re all waiting on the Lord.
Last edited by tmac on April 2nd, 2023, 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

endlessQuestions
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by endlessQuestions »

Dave62 wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 6:55 am
endlessQuestions wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 6:10 am My most sincere prayer is that enough people will repent that God can aid us in building Zion.

I don’t even care if I’m good enough to make it in.

I just want there to be a safe place for anyone who IS good enough.

Bless those who are seeking this. I pray for your success.
You must never say that, Endless. The Saviour is the one who is 'good enough'. If you choose, he will wash you clean with his blood, and annoint you, just like we practise in the temple. He will clothe you with the robe of his righteousness, and give you his name for a new name, just like we practise in the temple. Then he will lead you into Zion, just like we practise in the temple. If you choose, you are always 'good enough' to go to Zion because of Jesus.
Good point. Thanks for the reminder.

Teancum1
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Teancum1 »

marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:26 pm Isaiah 14:32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

Lord, please found Zion! Let her worthy children be gathered and redeemed never to fall away again!
Revelations 21: 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

No temple in the Holy City. For the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple.

Teancum1
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Teancum1 »

Revelations 21: 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

God himself shall be with them.

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marc
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

Teancum1, I am not so sure that the Holy City you are citing is the very same city New Jerusalem that must be built. What you are quoting may well be the celestial city in heaven and not the terrestrial city we will build here on Earth before the two meet when Jesus returns in glory. Is it the same as the temple Ezekiel saw in his vision that is yet to be built? Consider also Zion in three stages: Telestial (the church/us now unredeemed), Terestrial (redeemed and when Enoch returns with the Lord and the powers of heaven), and the Celestial (when the Lord presents the Earth in its future Celestial state). Lots to consider.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Cruiserdude »

Teancum1 wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 8:06 am Revelations 21: 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

God himself shall be with them.
Beautiful scripture 🙏🙏

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Teancum1 »

marc wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 8:32 am Teancum1, I am not so sure that the Holy City you are citing is the very same city New Jerusalem that must be built. What you are quoting may well be the celestial city in heaven and not the terrestrial city we will build here on Earth before the two meet when Jesus returns in glory. Is it the same as the temple Ezekiel saw in his vision that is yet to be built? Consider also Zion in three stages: Telestial (the church/us now unredeemed), Terestrial (redeemed and when Enoch returns with the Lord and the powers of heaven), and the Celestial (when the Lord presents the Earth in its future Celestial state). Lots to consider.
Thanks Marc. I fully know that I lack some understanding. And I appreciate simple explanations that are easy to understand. It’s frustrating that I feel I’ve lost so much time following the approved curriculum. I am here to share and more importantly to be taught.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

Teancum1 wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 9:07 am
marc wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 8:32 am Teancum1, I am not so sure that the Holy City you are citing is the very same city New Jerusalem that must be built. What you are quoting may well be the celestial city in heaven and not the terrestrial city we will build here on Earth before the two meet when Jesus returns in glory. Is it the same as the temple Ezekiel saw in his vision that is yet to be built? Consider also Zion in three stages: Telestial (the church/us now unredeemed), Terestrial (redeemed and when Enoch returns with the Lord and the powers of heaven), and the Celestial (when the Lord presents the Earth in its future Celestial state). Lots to consider.
Thanks Marc. I fully know that I lack some understanding. And I appreciate simple explanations that are easy to understand. It’s frustrating that I feel I’ve lost so much time following the approved curriculum. I am here to share and more importantly to be taught.
I totally understand, brother. Let's learn together.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by simpleton »

“We shall go back to Jackson County. Not that all this people will leave these mountains, or all be gathered together in a camp, but when we go back there will be a very large organization consisting of thousands, and tens of thousands, and they will march forward, the glory of God overshadowing their camp by day in the form of a cloud, and a pillar of flaming fire by night, the Lord’s voice being uttered forth before his army. Such a period will come in the history of this people. … And his people will go forth and build up Zion according to celestial law.

Imo, "Celestial Law" can pretty much be condensed into a few words, at least for us in the flesh, and that is, "becoming ONE", or being ONE, of "ONE heart and ONE mind".
And that will never be obtained under existing church conditions. Infact, we are further from that heavenly ideal than ever before, to the point of imminent destruction, and few be left.
Yet, there will be a remnant, the poor and the meek and the children of those that were faithful in Zion, and of course the remnant of Jacob scattered on the land on the America.
Last edited by simpleton on April 2nd, 2023, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by marc »

simpleton wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 10:06 am “We shall go back to Jackson County. Not that all this people will leave these mountains, or all be gathered together in a camp, but when we go back there will be a very large organization consisting of thousands, and tens of thousands, and they will march forward, the glory of God overshadowing their camp by day in the form of a cloud, and a pillar of flaming fire by night, the Lord’s voice being uttered forth before his army. Such a period will come in the history of this people. … And his people will go forth and build up Zion according to celestial law.
I found the discourse attributed. Look forward to reading it: https://jod.mrm.org/15/354

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by simpleton »

marc wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 10:11 am
simpleton wrote: April 2nd, 2023, 10:06 am “We shall go back to Jackson County. Not that all this people will leave these mountains, or all be gathered together in a camp, but when we go back there will be a very large organization consisting of thousands, and tens of thousands, and they will march forward, the glory of God overshadowing their camp by day in the form of a cloud, and a pillar of flaming fire by night, the Lord’s voice being uttered forth before his army. Such a period will come in the history of this people. … And his people will go forth and build up Zion according to celestial law.
I found the discourse attributed. Look forward to reading it: https://jod.mrm.org/15/354
Orson Pratt made an interesting and fulfilled prophecy:

I will prophesy to this people on this subject. The Lord commanded me to prophesy when I was about nineteen years old, but I seldom do it, for fear I should prophesy wrong. But I will prophesy concerning this Church and people, that all who will not come into that order of things, (order of Enoch, or the law of Concecration) when God, by his servants, counsels them so to do, will cease growing in the knowledge of God, they will cease having the Spirit of the Lord to rest upon them, and they will gradually grow darker and darker in their minds, until they lose the Spirit and power of God, and their names will not be numbered with the names of the righteous. You may put that down and record it.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

If we want Zion are we willing to bear each other's burdens? Are we ready to lift each other up no matter what the other person has been through and make them as our family and fight for them as if they're our own child? And are we willing to do that for people we judge and don't like?

If we're not putting that into practice today when it's difficult and we live in the middle of a satanic cesspool of the world, then we won't do it for each other when it's easy either. So I pray people will begin to be concerned for one another's burdens and lift each other up like Jesus would if he were here.

He needs some people to rescue after all so we should try not to blend in with the locals and lift each other up and live as if Jesus was already here with us.

Would we push somebody else to the front of the line to give them the opportunity to meet Jesus FIRST or would we claw and fight our way to the front ourselves? Would we give our lives for SOMEONE ELSE to meet Jesus?

I can't remember where the scripture story is about Jesus telling the man he's coming to dinner. The guy cleans his house and prepares a beautiful dinner. And three other people knock first and he gets annoyed and feels like it ruins his dinner he prepared for jesus.

Are we doing the same to each other thinking Jesus is going to show up?

I pray that we all will begin to care for each other as much as we would for Jesus. If Jesus was having a bad day and going through hell like the rest of us here do, what would we do for him?

Let's do that for each other today and I bet we'll see Zion by afternoon.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Being There »

An Eye Single wrote: April 1st, 2023, 9:25 pm
marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:17 pm D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Great topic! Here are some questions that come to mind:

power: In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in some thing; ability or strength.

So, what is this power? Whose is it? Why is it necessary for the Lord to “raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel”? In what way(s) will this man lead the children of Israel? Who are “the children of Israel?” Who are “seed of Abraham?” What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?

Nice chiasmus with “redemption of Zion” and “power.” Also nice to think about how Zion needs to be created spiritually, first, and then temporally. If you see the chiasmus through that lens, there is a lot to be gained there.

Also interesting are the differences in verses 19 and 20:

angel—>angels
“not my presence”—>”also my presence”
The bondage that is coming to the church (and the U. S.) will be literal bondage - as it was for the Israelites.
and a man like Moses is coming (end-time servant) - "like as Moses led the children of Israel" ,
to "led (them) out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm".


Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !
The saints, that survive will be in bondage.

This scripture clearly shows that we (the saints) will be taken captive for
"time and times and the dividing of time" - or 3 and a half years.

and proves that we will be in bondage - just as D&C 103:17 says we will.
Daniel 7:21
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


King of Assyria "as God’s “left hand” who punishes his apostate people "


Tthe "king of Assyria" (which could very well be Russia) will invade the U.S. ("Egypt" is the U.S. in Isaiah)
and then take over the whole World.
and members will be put into bondage as Israel was.

The bondage that is coming to the church (and the U. S.) will be literal bondage - as it was for the Israelites.
and a man like Moses is coming (end-time servant) - "like as Moses led the children of Israel" ,
to "lead (them) out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm".

D&C 103
15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."



Isaiah 7
17 Jehovah will bring upon you and your people and your father’s house a day unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—the day of the king of Assyria.

A time of national tragedy is to ensue—as when “Ephraim broke away from Judah” and Jehovah’s people became a house divided against itself (1 Kings 11:29-32; 12:19-21).
Jehovah appoints the king of Assyria as his instrument to afflict his people who reject him (Isaiah 10:5-6). As his people’s king and protector—as their proxy representative—Ahaz, by his disloyalty to Israel’s God, directly impacts what happens to his people. It is just a matter of time, too, before Isaiah’s pronouncement is fulfilled and a righteous “son” or vassal (ben)—Immanuel—replaces the unrighteous Ahaz (vv 14-16).

18 In that day Jehovah will signal for the flies from the far rivers of Egypt and for the bees in the land of Assyria.
19 And they will come and settle with one accord in the river beds of the prairie and in rocky ravines, and by all ditches and water holes. 20 In that day my Lord will use a razor hired at the River—the king of Assyria—to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to cut off even your beard.

Foreign armies, represented by swarms of flies and bees, invade the land in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment, implementing his covenant curse. The king of Assyria—Jehovah’s razor—takes captive the wicked of Jehovah’s people, shaving their hair in the manner of slaves. Historically referring to the Euphrates, the “River” (nahar) here characterizes the archtyrant as Lord Nahar—Lord River—a god of chaos in the Baal myth.
The words “head” and “beard” allude to the people’s leaders (Isaiah 3:14; 9:15) whom the Assyrians exile first, as they did anciently, leaving the people leaderless.


Isaiah 20

Assyria subjugates the superpower Egypt after Jehovah’s prophet–servant gives three years’ warning.

1 In the year the general who was sent by Sargon king of Assyria came to Ashdod and took it by combat,
2 Jehovah had spoken through Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and ungird the sackcloth from your loins and remove the shoes from your feet. And he had done so, going naked and barefoot.
3 Then Jehovah said, Just as my servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot for three years as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,
4 so shall the king of Assyria lead away the captives of Egypt and the exiles of Cush, both young and old, naked and barefoot, with buttocks uncovered—to Egypt’s shame.
(this will happen to the people in the U. S. and many members of the church)


Although Isaiah is already in a state of mourning because of the wickedness of Jehovah’s people and Assyria’s aggressiveness, Jehovah now asks him to go naked and barefoot as a “sign and portent” against Egypt and Cush (cf. Isaiah 8:18). Exposing himself to the elements and to people’s mockery, Isaiah—“my servant”—obeys.
As a type of Jehovah’s end-time servant, Isaiah gives warning of Assyria’s invasion of Egypt and Cush (Upper Egypt) and of the humiliation of their captives.
They have three years in which to repent before three years of Jehovah’s Day of Judgment overtake them (cf. Isaiah 16:14).

5 Men shall be appalled and perplexed at Cush, their hope, and at Egypt, their boast.
6 In that day shall the inhabitants of this isle say, See what has become of those we looked up to, (the superpower - the U. S. )
on whom we relied for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How shall we ourselves escape?

The nations of the world who rely on Egypt’s military might to protect them see their hopes dashed when Assyria ravishes Egypt and Cush (Upper Egypt): (* my note -could be referring to Canada)
“Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, relying on horses, putting their trust in immense numbers of chariots and vast forces of horsemen, but who do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor inquire of Jehovah!” (Isaiah 31:1);
“Pharaoh’s protection shall turn to your shame, shelter in Egypt’s shadow to embarrassment” (Isaiah 30:2). Without Jehovah’s divine intervention, the great superpower the world so admired proves no match for Assyria.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
video 6
King of Assyria/Babylon
https://isaiahinstitute.com/videos/
Last edited by Being There on April 2nd, 2023, 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

Post by Being There »

An Eye Single wrote: April 1st, 2023, 9:25 pm
marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:17 pm D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Great topic! Here are some questions that come to mind:

power: In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in some thing; ability or strength.

So, what is this power? Whose is it? Why is it necessary for the Lord to “raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel”? In what way(s) will this man lead the children of Israel? Who are “the children of Israel?” Who are “seed of Abraham?” What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?

Nice chiasmus with “redemption of Zion” and “power.” Also nice to think about how Zion needs to be created spiritually, first, and then temporally. If you see the chiasmus through that lens, there is a lot to be gained there.

Also interesting are the differences in verses 19 and 20:

angel—>angels
“not my presence”—>”also my presence”
What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?
Isaiah 10
Jehovah appoints the king of Assyria to despoil and destroy the wicked of his people and the nations.

1 Woe to those who enact unjust laws,who draft oppressive legislation—
2 denying justice to the needy,depriving the poor of my people of their right,making plunder of widows,mere spoil of the fatherless!

Oppressive laws, symptomatic of a corrupt society, by their very nature lead to more corruption. People’s thinking turns devious as they seek ways of getting around the law. In an unequal community, the poor and needy, the widows and fatherless, are the first to suffer (Isaiah 1:23). Jehovah’s calling those who are unable on their own to lift themselves out of poverty “my people” implies that he acknowledges them, not their oppressors, as his covenant people. The terms “plunder” and “spoil,” which characterize the Assyrian archtyrant (v 6), show that he is the evil archetype that oppressors follow.

3 What will you do in the day of reckoning when the holocaust overtakes you from afar?To whom will you flee for help?Where will you leave your wealth?

The “day of reckoning”—Jehovah’s Day of Judgment—hastens on even as the lawmakers of Jehovah’s people act as if no such thing will occur (vv 1-2). Their ill-gotten wealth won’t save them in that day, nor will others extend help (Isaiah 47:11). Jehovah will remove his righteous people from their midst, leaving them to suffer his judgments alone (Isaiah 57:1). The “holocaust” (so’a) from afar refers to Jehovah’s destruction by fire and by the sword that arrives from afar, from beyond the horizon, to desolate the earth (v 23; Isaiah 5:23-26; 13:4-19; 28:22; 30:27-28; 33:11-12; 34:2-8; 66:15-16).

4 There shall nothing remain but to kneel among the captives or fall among the slain.
Yet for all this his anger is not abated;his hand is upraised still.

Those who perish or go captive in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment consist of Jehovah’s people who reject his word (Isaiah 28:9-14; 65:12) and Babylon’s idolaters (Isaiah 37:18-19; 46:1-2). As both suffer the same fate, Jehovah’s wicked people belong to Isaiah’s Babylon category: “Scoff not, lest your bonds grow severe, for I have heard utter destruction decreed by my Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, upon the whole earth” (Isaiah 28:22); “The Day of Jehovah shall come as a cruel outburst of anger and wrath to make the earth a desolation, that sinners may be annihilated from it” (Isaiah 13:9; emphasis added).

5 Hail the Assyrian, the rod of my anger! He is a staff—my wrath in their hand.
6 I will commission him against a godless nation,appoint him over the people deserving of my vengeance,to pillage for plunder, to spoliate for spoil,to tread underfoot like mud in the streets.

Jehovah’s rod, staff, anger, wrath, vengeance, and (left) hand of punishment all designate the king of Assyria/Babylon (v 15; Isaiah 5:25; 13:9). Jehovah sends him against the “godless nation” of his own people in their unrepentant state and against the nations of the world (Isaiah 13:4-6; 37:24-27). The archtyrant fulfills Isaiah’s prediction inherent in the name of his son Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (“Hasten the Plunder, Hurry the Spoil”) (Isaiah 8:1-4; cf. 10:13-14; 13:16; 28:2-4; 42:22, 24). He reduces the wicked to “mud,” a chaos motif, signifying their return to an elemental state—to nonentities.

7 Nevertheless, it shall not seem so to him;this shall not be what he has in mind.His purpose shall be to annihilate and to exterminate nations not a few.

Although the king of Assyria/Babylon serves Jehovah’s purpose of inflicting covenant curses on his alienated people (Isaiah 37:26), he seeks only his self-aggrandizement. He is that wicked one who destroys the wicked of the world in the course of conquering all lands (Isaiah 37:18). To that end, he commits global genocide (Isaiah 33:12). As a mass murderer, of whom the ancient kings of Assyria and Babylon provide types, he belongs to Isaiah’s Perdition category. Isaiah depicts him under his cultic or idolatrous title “king of Babylon” as ultimately descending to the Pit of Dissolution (Isaiah 14:15).

8 He will say, Are not my commanders kings,one and all?
9 Has not Calno fared like Carchemish?Is not Hamath as Arpad,Samaria no better than Damascus?
10 As I could do this to the pagan states,whose statues exceededthose of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 shall I not do to Jerusalem and its images even as I did to Samaria and its idols?

As he invades one land after another, the archtyrant imagines he is able to conquer Jehovah’s people just as well as them. He is aware of their covenant relationship with their Creator, but he assumes that their God is no more a threat to him than the gods of the nations he has already conquered (Isaiah 36:18-20; 37:11-13). His successes lead him to believe that nothing is impossible that he sets his mind to do. He imagines that his henchmen will rule under him as his empire spreads to the ends of the earth (cf. Isaiah 14:21). He fails to perceive, however, that his victories are but momentary (vv 12, 24-27).

12 But when my Lord has fully accomplished his work in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, he will punish the king of Assyria for his notorious boasting and infamous conceit,

Word links show that Jehovah’s “work” is twofold: (1) the destruction of the wicked; and (2) the deliverance of the righteous. On the one hand, it involves “utter destruction” upon the whole earth (v 23; Isaiah 13:4-5; 28:21-22). On the other, it entails the birth of a new nation of Jehovah’s people affiliated with Zion and Jerusalem at the time Jehovah’s servant prepares the way for Jehovah’s coming (Isaiah 40:3, 10; 66:7-9). The locations of Mount Zion and Jerusalem are significant as that is where the archtyrant is overthrown when he lays siege to them (Isaiah 31:4-5, 8-9; 37:32-36; Obadiah 1:17-21).

13 because he said,
I have done it by my own ability and shrewdness, for I am ingenious. I have done away with the borders of nations, I have ravaged their reserves, I have vastly reduced the inhabitants.
14 I have impounded the wealth of peoples like a nest,and I have gathered up the whole world as one gathers abandoned eggs;not one flapped its wings,or opened its mouth to utter a peep.

Believing he has all power, the archtyrant boasts of his exploits—the pronoun “I” appears seven times, portraying him as an ultra-egotist. His claims show that in the course of committing global genocide he indeed conquers the world, establishing a one-world government or new world order. For him, Jehovah’s Day of Judgment is the great day of his power, when the earth’s inhabitants quail before him (Isaiah 13:4-8; 37:26-27). He is the “thief in the night” who gathers up the world’s wealth in the days just preceding Jehovah’s coming (cf. Matthew 24:42-44; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6; 2 Peter 3:10).

15 Shall an axe exalt itself above the one who hews with it,or a saw vaunt itself over him who handles it?As though the rod wielded him who lifts it up!As though the staff held up the one who is not made of wood!

It is none other than Israel’s God Jehovah who empowers the archtyrant to hew down the wicked and to rule those who reject Him as their ruler. As Jehovah’s axe and saw, his rod and staff, the king of Assyria/Babylon has no capability of his own, only as the Maker of heaven and earth lends him his power (Isaiah 37:26-27; 54:16). The archtyrant isn’t a creative force in the world but merely a destructive one, reducing its wicked inhabitants and their institutions to chaos (Isaiah 14:16-17; 37:18). Because he exalts and vaunts himself above Israel’s God, he ends up abased (Isaiah 14:15; 37:23-25, 28-29).

16 Therefore will the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,send a consumption into his fertile lands,and cause a fire to flare up like a burning hearth,to undermine his glory:
17 the Light of Israel will be the fire and their Holy One the flame,and it shall burn up and devour his briars and thorns in a single day.

Just as the archtyrant is a fire that burns up the wicked (Isaiah 9:18-19; 30:27-28), so what he does to others is done to him. Jehovah empowers another fire—his end-time servant—to subdue him (Isaiah 30:30-32; 31:8-9). Also called Jehovah’s light (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6), the servant is here named the “Light of Israel.” The Holy One of Israel’s identity as a flame, on the other hand (cf. Genesis 15:17; Exodus 3:2-4), reflects the close affinity between Jehovah and his servant. Together, they burn up the archtyrant’s “briars and thorns”—his evil alliance—in “a single day,” Jehovah’s Day of Judgment.

18 His choice forests and productive field sit will consume, both life and substance,turning them into a rotting morass.
19 And the trees left of his forest shall be so few,a child could record them.

In the same way the king of Assyria/Babylon destroys “forests” or cities and lays lands waste (Isaiah 32:19; 33:1, 9), so it is done to him. The “rotting morass” his fields and forests end up as shows that as he reduced others to chaos so what is his suffers a similar fate. The “trees” or people that are “left” of his forest are but few. They are nevertheless recorded in the Book of Life with others who are “left” in that day (Isaiah 4:3). In effect, just as Israel’s northern tribes anciently went captive into Assyria, so those who return from end-time “Assyria” are their descendants (Isaiah 11:11, 16; 27:12-13).

20 In that day those who survive of Israel and who escape of the house of Jacob will no longer rely on him who struck them,but will truly rely on Jehovah,the Holy One of Israel:
21 of Jacob a remnant will return to the One Mighty in Valor.

Whereas the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people is subject to the tyrannical king of Assyria/Babylon—suffering the curses of a broken covenant—in the day that they “repent” (swb) of evil Jehovah makes it possible for them to “return” (swb) in a new exodus to Zion (Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16; 35:8-10; 51:11). Instead of relying on a power of chaos—on one who does little more than smite them—they now rely on Jehovah, their God, who seeks only to bless them. The One Mighty in Valor to whom they return is Jehovah’s servant, who leads their end-time exodus (Isaiah 9:6; 11:10; 55:3-7, 12-13).


22 For though your people, O Israel,be as the sands of the sea,only a remnant will return;although annihilation is decreed,it shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,will carry out the utter destruction decreed upon the whole earth.

Those who survive the “annihilation” or “utter destruction” Jehovah has decreed in his Day of Judgment are but a tithing of his people (cf. Isaiah 6:13): “Had you but obeyed my commandments, your peace would have been as a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea; your offspring would have been as the sands in number, your descendants as many as their grains. Their names would not have been cut off and obliterated from my presence” (Isaiah 48:18-19).
For his people’s righteousness’ sake, however—literal and figurative—“a remnant will return” (cf. Shear-Jashub, Isaiah 7:3).

24 Therefore, thus says my Lord,Jehovah of Hosts:O my people who inhabit Zion,be not afraid of the Assyrians,though they strike you with the rodor raise their staff over you,as did the Egyptians.
25 For my anger will very soon come to an end;my wrath will become their undoing.

Those of the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people “who inhabit Zion,” who suffer the curse of bondage to the king of Assyria/Babylon, Jehovah again acknowledges as “my people” when they repent and ascend to the Zion/Jerusalem category. The archtyrant—Jehovah’s rod of punishment and staff of submission, who personifies his anger and wrath (vv 5, 15)—has but temporary power over them. Jehovah’s purpose is to induce his people to ascend to higher spiritual levels. Because the archtyrant’s wrath exceeds all bounds as he seeks to destroy Jehovah’s elect, he must fall (Isaiah 31:4-9).

26 Jehovah of Hosts will raise the whip against them,as when he struck the Midianites at the Rock of Oreb.
His staff is over the Sea,and he will lift it over them as he did to the Egyptians.

Led by Gideon, Israel anciently defeated a huge Midianite host at the Rock of Oreb (Judges 7:23-25). The term “whip” or “scourge” (sot) alludes to Gideon’s thrashing his enemies with a flagellum of briars and thorns (Judges 8:16). In an end-time version of these events, the whip—Jehovah’s servant—defeats an Assyrian army in a similar victory against overwhelming odds (Isaiah 9:4; 30:30-32). Drawing on a second such type, Jehovah’s staff—his servant—subdues the Sea—the Assyrian horde—following the model of Moses’ defeating the Egyptians (Exodus 14:15-31; Isaiah 11:15-16; 51:9-10).

27 In that day their burdens shall be lifted from your shoulders,their yoke removed from your neck:the yoke that wore away your fatness shall by fatness wear away.

As Jehovah released ancient Israel from the heavy burdens of their bondage in Egypt (Exodus 13:3), so he releases his end-time people from their curse of servitude after it has served his purpose of motivating them to repent and renew their commitment to serve him.
Their indigent captive condition gives way to a bounteous abundance when Jehovah removes their yoke—the king of Assyria/Babylon: “I will break Assyria in my own land, trample them underfoot on my mountains; their yoke shall be taken from them, their burden removed from their shoulders” (Isaiah 14:25; emphasis added; cf. 9:4).

28 He advances on Aiath, passes through Migron;at Micmash he marshals his weaponry.
29 They cross over the pass,stopping overnight at Geba.Ramah is in a state of alarm,Gibeah of Saul is fleeing. 30 Cry out, O Daughter of Gallim!Hear her, Laishah; answer her, Anathoth!
31 Madmenah has moved out of the way,the inhabitants of Gebim are in full flight.
32 This same day he will but pause at Noband signal the advance against the mountain of the Daughter of Zion,the hill of Jerusalem.

As a world conqueror, the king of Assyria/Babylon and his disciplined armies take the world by storm. Assyria’s ancient invasion of the Promised Land serves as the type of an end-time invasion of promised lands. The archtyrant’s coveted prize is “the mountain of the Daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem”—the righteous nation or nations of Jehovah’s people. The world’s inhabitants flee before his rapid military advance as his forces sweep into countries like a river in flood (Isaiah 8:7-10; 37:18, 24-27). Those who don’t participate in the new exodus to escape destruction now suffer the consequences.

33 Then will my Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,shatter the towering trees with terrifying power;the high in stature shall be hewn down,the lofty ones leveled.
34 The dense forests shall be battered down with the force of iron,and Lebanon fall spectacularly.

The lofty trees—the elite peoples of the earth—fall to the king of Assyria/Babylon’s awesome military might (Isaiah 2:12-17; 37:24). The dense forests—the populous cities—are razed by his awesome power (Isaiah 14:8; 32:19). Like the ancient heroes of Mesopotamian myth, the archtyrant hews down the cedars of Lebanon—Jehovah’s elite people (Jeremiah 22:23; Ezekiel 17:3)—in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 33:9). Although it is the archtyrant who carries out this destruction, Israel’s God, “Jehovah of Hosts,” manifests his power through him (v 15; Isaiah 13:4-6; 28:22; 37:24-27; 54:16).

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Being There
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Re: The Redemption of Zion Prayer and Discussion

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An Eye Single wrote: April 1st, 2023, 9:25 pm
marc wrote: April 1st, 2023, 3:17 pm D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Great topic! Here are some questions that come to mind:

power: In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in some thing; ability or strength.

So, what is this power? Whose is it? Why is it necessary for the Lord to “raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel”? In what way(s) will this man lead the children of Israel? Who are “the children of Israel?” Who are “seed of Abraham?” What “bondage” do we need to be led out of?

Nice chiasmus with “redemption of Zion” and “power.” Also nice to think about how Zion needs to be created spiritually, first, and then temporally. If you see the chiasmus through that lens, there is a lot to be gained there.

Also interesting are the differences in verses 19 and 20:

angel—>angels
“not my presence”—>”also my presence”
more on "power"
and the Lord empowering his servant.

The One Mighty and Strong - in D&C 85
is NOT JS but is the Lord's end-time Davidic servant
as found in Isaiah.

look for word links. ********

ALSO
Most don't know this, and are only familiar with the Mighty and Strong One
that is spoken of in D&C 85 who is the Lord's end-time servant.
7-8: “And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send ********one mighty and strong,
holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words;
while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth to set in order the house of God,
********and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God; while that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by a vivid shaft of lightening.”

quote
"I once heard an LDS lecturer declare: “If the authorities knew how many problems this scripture was going to cause them, they would have never let it in the Doctrine and Covenants.” This may be true and the present day authorities would love to rip this section out of the book, but since it would bring criticism from the people, they decided to ignore it instead.
Even if it were taken out of the D&C (which may possibly happen in the future), it would still be in Isaiah,
and all the Bibles in the world cannot be changed.
"


Isaiah speaks of both "mighty and strong". There are 2 of them.
1. is His right hand, is the Lord's Davidic servant.
2. is His left hand, the king of Assyria. (Isaiah 28:2)
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/search? ... of+Assyria

Isaiah 28
2 My Lord has in store******** one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters, he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters”
identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2).
******** A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant, who makes an end of him at the last.
Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies

(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground
(cf. vv 1, 3).


His right hand, is the Lord's Davidic servant. (below)
Isaiah 34

16 Search, and read it in the book of Jehovah: None is unaccounted for, not one lacks her mate.
By his mouth he decreed it,
by his Spirit he brings them together.
17 ******** It is he who allots them an inheritance, his hand that divides it by measure.
They shall possess it forever,
inhabit it from generation to generation.

Carrying bird imagery a step further, Isaiah shows that Jehovah assigns each female a mate by an edict recorded in his “book”—the Book of Life. Jehovah’s mouth—his servant—“decrees” or “ordains” (siwwa) it, while Jehovah’s Spirit brings them together so that they find one another. Jehovah’s hand—his servant—assigns them permanent inheritances in the land, as did Joshua:
“I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant of the people,
******** to restore the Land and reapportion the desolate estates” (Isaiah 49:8; cf. Joshua 11:23).
Unlike in modern times, divine inheritances are never sold.



Isaiah 49

8 Thus says Jehovah:At a favorable time I have answered you; in the day of salvation I have come to your aid:
******** I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant of the people,to restore the Land and reapportion the desolate estates,
9 to say to the captives, Come forth!
and to those in darkness, Show yourselves! They shall feed along the way and find pasture on all barren heights;

The servant’s reversal of circumstances portends a reversal of circumstances for Jehovah’s elect.
As Jehovah empowers his servant, so the servant empowers them (Isaiah 61:1-5).
Both follow the same pattern of loyalty to Jehovah: “Your faithfulness in time [of trial] shall prove to be a strength, your wisdom and knowledge your salvation” (Isaiah 33:6).
The “favorable time” in which Jehovah answers his servant’s intercession on behalf of his people
under the terms of the Davidic Covenant
coincides with the “day of salvation”—Jehovah’s Day of Judgment that precedes his coming to the earth.

Jehovah’s “creating” or re-creating and “appointing” his servant as a covenant to his people (cf. Isaiah 42:6)
denotes his ascent to the seraph level and his role as mediator of Jehovah’s covenant.
After freeing the spiritual captives of Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 42:7)—those who were blind and deaf on account of their idolatries (Isaiah 42:17-20)—the servant frees them physically (vv 24-25; Isaiah 45:13).
Those who were subject to physical darkness—to the king of Assyria/Babylon—
******** the servant appoints lands of inheritance as Jehovah’s coming as salvation draws near (v 8; Isaiah 52:7; 58:8, 12).


"Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed;
for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.
And there shall rise up one mighty among them [the seed of Lehi], who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren." (2 Nephi 3:23-24)

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